I was also there and can also vouch for said conversation. As well as what Marksman14 and Remman are saying.

Awwwww snap.

Ok so now that weve gotten passed the childish bickering... haha just kidding! To simply put it Chris Costa is essentially the michael jordan of the Ar15 and shooting community and there are alot of parallels between the ways in which people idolize them.
Both of them have skills sets that we can honestly only dream of having and both have been through stuff that we cant imagine doing to get to where they are now.
In reading his resume from the website he has 15 years of combat experience.
Think about it this way, You can shoot 1000's of jumpshots a day, and pratice day and night for a year and that still wont prepare you for the 1st 3min of an NBA game. But what will prepare you are those highschool basketball games, then playin for a school in the SEC, then making it to the final four etc.
My point being is that his skills not only come from the range but from EXPERIENCE. For him to know how to effectively take out a threat and keep himself alive as fast and effeciently as possible takes alot of trigger time and puttin alot of bad guys to rest.
To know how someone gets to that point is something everyone wants to know and is often very interesting ( how did bill gates get that rich, how did jordan build up the courage to take those game winning shots etc).
I wont have the privilege of taking a course until the summer. So in the mean time would one of the people who attended the course that day send me a message telling me some of his story? it would be much appreciated

Just as a side note, that may be relevant to why or why not a bit of combat experience is necessary many techniques in the AOTC 1 and 2 could not be done in war gear with plates, etc on.  They may work for LEO or non-military PSD types.  However we took the Marines out they could do them without their armor and helmets on, but to a man no one could get into many of the positions with their war gear on.

What techniques do you speak of?  We had guys in my class run full battle rattle and had no problem doing any one of the drills.

Its also possible the marines set up (the way in which they located their gear on their person) led them to have problems getting into position. Which would be a gear problem.

I'm way out of my lane as far as knowing, just speculating.

MTVs with with all 4 ESAPIs, mags, IFAKs, camel backs and LW helmets.  Without the armor, they could get in the positions and out just fine, once the went will full gear most the prone positions were out of the question, they looked like stuck turtles about anything other than standing took effort, since they had an additional 50 lbs on their upper body.

I know may come as surprise to some people, but after 8 years of war, we some what know what we are doing by this point.

He looks like Gordon Freeman.  Expert enough for me.

WWTHD?
(What Would Travis Haley Do?)

He'd sit on top of a building sniping at crazy whiney arfcommers while saying that it was like a "fuckin' turkey zombie shoot."

WWCCD?
(What Would Chris Costa Do?)

He'd tactically advance through the hoards of whiney arfcommers using his magically infused power-of-flaming-death-Knights-triple-tap-accessorized-SR15, and his blessed by the holy pope beard of power, mowing them down in droves while performing reloads in such a manner that his empty magazines flew 15 feet from his gun and knocked people out with the power of the flip-reload.

If that doesn't explain their qualifications, I don't know what does....

Yes, sir.  After 8 years of war we are still doing pretty good, except for the institutional inertia that we are infected with that costs Marines their lives and limbs from time to time.  Let me give you an example of what I mean.

"With a magazine of 15 rounds, LOAD!"  (Marines drop their heads, fiddlebitch with mags and pouches, look down at their magwells as they insert magazines.)  MAKE READY! (God forbid after the aforementioned 8 years of combat experience a Marine have a round in the chamber of his weapon without a verbal command.)  SHOOTERS, YOU MAY COMMENCE FIRING WHEN YOUR TARGETS APPEAR!!!

A Marine in Fallujah was moving to contact down a street when an insurgent with an AK jumps out of a doorway and opens fire on him.  The Marine shoots the insurgent 7 times and sees him drop to the ground.  The Marine then runs acros the street, finds cover, and executes  a tactical reload.  He executes this reload by dropping his eyes off the street around him, fiddlebitching with his pouches, and knobdicking his weapon.  WHen he looks up, POW!!!  The Insurgent he had just shot and seen fall is 4 feet in front of him and shoots the Marine in the chest with his AK.  The Marine is now a parapalegic and maintains that if he had watched AOTTC before going to Fallujah, he would not have gotten shot by that insurgent.  That is what Travis and Chris are trying to change.  That is something I would like to see changed.

I have seen Chris and Travis run and gun in an urban mock up setting in plates, vests, and helmets and they didn't have any trouble exectuing many of the weapons manipulations that they espouse.  When I took my 1st Magpul Dynamics Carbine class, I ran plates, IFAK, ammo pouches, admin pouch, camelbak, etc. and though tough I managed it.  We just have to get smarter about how we load out for combat and how we rig up our gear.  The Marines are great at teaching "Marksmanship" but we are missing the boat on Weapons Manipulation.

I would agree that we could be much better about how we arrange our gear and train to fight.

But when we have 50 plus Marines in their gear not able to get into the positions, so its not just a few guys or so much how the gear is arrange, but the positions may not be practical for what we are doing.

When the Bn SgtMaj has more say about where magazine pouches go than Plt Sgts and Plt Cmdrs, we have serious problems with how we train to fight.

I agree that some of the positions are difficult to manage in full battle rattle, but the word that you hear very often from Chris and Travis is "reaction", I would not pick the Urban Prone as my ideal firing position, but, it the situation presents itself, I'm glad that I have practiced it enough to know I can engage targets acurately from that position.  As we say at The Basic School "It's a technique."

The days of standardization have somewhat passed  in the Marines, if you get 25 Marines together you will see their arranged 25 different ways.

I've shot slick and in heavy Armor... definitely different techniques required to pull it off....Roll over prone is easy the way Chris does it when he just drops to the deck, but with full gear... not happening...

As to Chris's fame... He's probably as amazed as to his meteoric rise to fame as anyone else... but seems like a humble down to earth guy who enjoys what he does and from watching his videos can shoot and can teach... I would like to shoot with him.

I've met Chris and had the pleasure of being a RSO for the 3-day Magpul Carbine 1 class in WI this past summer.  Both Chris and Mike Lamb are experienced, good guys, talented instructors and very entertaining.  I think that Chris' experience is solid and that he believes in what he's teaching.  

The REAL issue here is not Chris' experience.  It's solid - just like many other instructors' experience.  It's that many people can't understand why so many guys have "man-crushes" on Chris and not on THEIR favorite instructors.

My guess is that for a lot of "man-crushers", the Magpul Dynamics DVDs are the first time they've been exposed to formal training.  Combine that with the buzz surrounding Magpul products and it creates a lot of hype.

I'm happy that people are at least INTERESTED in obtaining training - and I applaud those that take classes be it with Magpul Dynamics or other good schools.


As for the guys asking what kind of socks Chris uses, dumb stuff like that gets filtered out along with 99% of the stuff on ARFcom

From the DVD's, it seems Chris is a good teacher and is entertaining. A good combo.

ugh, please don't lump us in with those guys

USCGTACLET, do tell.  I always enjoy a good dish.

haha just a little good 'ole fashioned rivalry between the CG and the Navy, on Navy ships VBSS (Visit Board Search and Seize) teams are a collateral duty taken by the ships crew, whereas at a TACLET its our only job. VBSS tends to be a little gung-ho with their ops, we do our best to temper em down to a realistic level.

My first post, what a way to come in

A couple of things;

Chris worked with some former teammates of mine before Magpul. Guys I had gone to war with, and I value their opinion wholeheartedly. Hard dudes who had seen the elephant more than a few times a piece. They all give Chris a thumbs up, which is not easy to get from men like that. Working in an enviromrnt like that says a lot about Chris in itself.

So of course, after I met him the first time, I called up my bros and checked him out. All good. I've known him and T for awhile now.

Pre 9/11, my unit and our sister unit got all almost all our small arms training from Jerry Barnhart, Rob Leatham, and Bennie Cooley. None of which, as far as I know, have shot bad dudes in the face. Neither unit had any issues when it came game time. If anything, those 3 guys helped us succeed in some situations where we should have lost, if for no other reason than weapons overmatch vs. accuracy.  

Skills are one thing, and can be transferred as long as the instructor can actually teach. I believe Chris can. As far as what skills? Hell, we're (trainers) all a little different. I always suggest someone go to 2 or 3 different schools. There are things I do that Chris doesn't, and vice versa. Each student learns different.

The actual decision to do God's work comes down to a good selection course and the induvidual's makeup, I believe, and the individual making sense of what his job is long before he's faced with an engagement. That's not what Chris, TigerSwan, LAV, me, VTAC, or any other training school teaches. He teaches skills, and does it well.

Kyle

I've taken over 50 hours of combat handgun and I try to work much of what I learned as often as I can. But what I remember most was shooting with my father in-law who was a decorated WW II combat vet who fought from Salerno up through France and into Germany. 2 years, 7 month, 4 days overseas. He was also in two shootouts as a detective on the NYPD and was a 1st grade detective on the Major Case Squad (when you could use your gun) where in one he was shot in the leg while he kept his weapon pointed at the guy who had put a gun to his partner's head. I would not have believed it but it was 1954 and 2 blocks from the Daily News Building and a reporter caught the picture as the guy dropped the gun he grabbed while being frisked from a rookie partner, but he still has his arm around the neck of his partner while my father in-law is laying in the gutter holding his leg. He had already shot two of three others in the stomach. I have heard also that LA was very safe then as they put combat vets on the force after WW II who would shoot.

Even with training from Federal and local LE SWAT members nothing has changed what he first told me.

1- you put three shots in center mass first and then you move with the gun trained on who you are shooting at as you look for cover
2- you tell yourself today isn't your day to die, it's his day. You are going to be patched up at the hospital.

He said training is great. But it's all built upon movement and mindset. Those two points are what keep you alive.

I have yet to come across anything in the carbine and pistol classes I have taken that refutes or supersede them.

That said, I told one daughter I want the first DVD carbine set.

Walsh

P.S. I have had to draw my weapon during an attempted robbery and during an attempted carjacking and was told of acting first and discussed the OODA LOOP (sp?). In both instances the training from qualified instructors got me inside their loop as my weapon had pressure on the trigger and I could have fired both times. I am amazed that of close to ten people I know who carry, not one will take my advice and get even one class of training, AND they rarely shoot. Telling them they are in for a big surprise if they need to draw their weapon is lost upon them. Anyone taking classes learns quickly that they really had no idea of what to do when they first walked out of the house with a concealed weapon. So if one person reading this takes his first class, this post was worth putting up.

Having gone to Parris Island last weekend and seen 4 units competing in drills a week before graduation I am saddened to hear that occurred. I also have a 6.8spc after reading of these guys getting back up.

I didn't read your message until after I posted what my father in-law first told me which was to not take my eyes off the threat.

Walsh

MCL Detachment Parris Island Photos

A friend of mine has a PhD in physics and is in the NJ Inventor's Hall of Fame with many neurosurgical devices and hydrogen inventions like pulling power from sea water to start an engine using a metal insect spray can and a bunch of gadgets. He also learned the art of being a world class luthier in college and being in Ocean Township, NJ, he builds custom guitars and does all of Springsteen's guitar work since Bruce was "Dr. Zoom and the Sonic Boom" (I've seen the photos). His very private photo album is loaded with pictures with everyone including Elvis (and I don't mean that coward dickhead Costello).

A week does not go by where they don't get a call in the shop asking what strings "The Boss" uses.

It's the cult of personality.

Walsh

Walsh, you're a nail hitter.  His(Costa's) system is one of several that work.
You can do it his way and be fine.  You can do it another way and be fine.

The guy who first taught me was shot twice. In WW II he had no idea from where. In NYC he knew it was from 15-20 feet. In one instance he wished he had better cover and in the other instance he wished he'd been moving. But he was busy shooting two people who had come off a wall who he had been frisking.

I think it's safe to assume that after you have the basics down, it's "shooting on the move" that gets taught for good reason.

I recall reading that if someone pulls a gun on you and you just run as the odds of being hit are less than 10%. I'm not sure if you have to "Serpentine" like Peter Falk told Alan Arkin to do in the original, "The In-Laws" though

Walsh

After taking their class I left better prepared to defend myself with a carbine should the situation arise.  If you can add to your "tool box" after taking a class from any instructor its a win.  I got a fair share of win from training with MD.

Welcome Kyle!  

LOL @ this thread

Where where all the "combat experience does not matter" folks in the thread on "does combat exp matter in an instructor" thread.

I just guess it only matters if some folks are the subject......  

I am no expert on training with regard to weapons and training. But I can say I am/was one on golf.

I went to a Golf Digest low-handicap school back in 1986 with a 2 handicap at the time. Peter Kostis was the teaching pro. He was teaching at least 10 guys on the PGA Tour at the time and Tom Kite dropped by for a lesson during it. If one does not know who Tom Kite is, he was, for many years, one of the top players in the world.

Did it matter if Kostis had won a tournament, even though he was a very good player himself, but not quite of the caliber Tom Kite was? Not at all. Playing at the top level in any tournament is walking on egg shells. One can't teach that and many have lost majors tournaments (Greg Norman losing the Masters to Nick Faldo is classic) by merely getting matched with a Jack Nicklaus and being out of a comfort zone, that comes only, for the individual, with experience.

So IMHO, if the training is solid, and if they can enter a level of stress into it, I don't see how extensive combat matters to anyone, except possibly those who are headed "into the shit" as they might have more to say to those individuals.

If I am not exactly right feel free to tell me why it matters. I'm all ears (as Ross Perot said often )

Walsh