Would a shockwave have to go on a pistol permit or are they over the counter in NY?

Over the counter.

Not quite true. If ATF says you are criminal, they care. If it says you aren't a criminal THEN they do not care

OTC, must be 21+yrs old.

We know they are legal. The point that has been made clear is that some prosecutors will prosecute anyway. And no doubt there are many LEO who will arrest anyway.   They don’t care, you can’t do anything about it.

You can be right, or you can do what they want you to do.  Being right often comes at great cost.  Times have changed.  Back in the day Sam Adams and 2000 citizens would have forcibly removed you from government custody. Today nobody is going to do anything.  An arrested and violated gun owner is on their own.

Wonder if they can be carried loaded in a vehicle?

And what about using for hunting? In a no-rifle zone? DEC may not like that...

Good questions. I have no idea.

You would definitely take a ride if the fish cops caught you with such a weapon in a no rifle zone.  Raise your hand if you want to be the test case.

I've never hunted, so the fish cops will never catch me.

I've hunted in pistol zones with a braced AR pistol in 300blk...

This thread is making me happy that I built (and keep) my AR pistol at my condo in Florida. It sucks that I only get to spend ~3 months a year shooting it, but its still better than the hassle of a fixed mag pistol in NY any day of the week.

With the weather this year you’d only get three good shooting months in NY anyway.

It was upper 70's and sunny for the last two weeks in FL, I come back here...40's and rain. I don't want to wish my life away, but five years until retirement can't come fast enough! I'm looking forward to no more winter and a WHOLE LOT of freedom!

This would be an interesting case.  Clearly it violates 2A.  Multi use land is public.  DEC would argue they have a right to control land use- but that never trumps 2A.  Kings deer and all, it’s obvious what the drafters of the Constitution would have to say about it.

I keep seeing deals on 11.5" barrels. Must. Resist.

Rossi Ranch hand.   NYS doesn't care what ATF thinks.

Well nys law doesn't define this kind of gun...so it's not banned.

NYSP unilaterally declared it to be a SBR, if I recall correctly.

How can any LE agency "declare" anything illegal?

Well I guess it means the NYSP would pursue an arrest, so it'd go to trial.

I can't imagine a jury would disagree with the ATF determination though.

If it's not designed to be a stock, it's not a stock. That goes for arm braces and ranch hands.

Otherwise ALL guns are SBRs...I can shoulder my glock and fire it. Does that make the rear portion of the grip a stock? And therefore the gun is an SBR?

I wouldn't put it past NY state, honestly. The laws here are so fucked. When your laws are worse than California, you really can't get any lower.

These may meet the letter of the law as written, but its just a matter of time before someone will get loved tenderly by the NYSP for having one, same for the Shockwave, etc.

They're the entity that oversees N.Y. FFLs, for one thing. They're the opinion that dealers and pistol permit divisions of LEAs will seek out on an issue. And yes, they'll threaten you with arrest if you go against what they decree

Well...the Westchester gun shop that is selling these "other" ARs with VFGs and braces...they are very uptight when it comes to compliant guns...so they must have gotten the OK from somewhere.

Shockwave wise, when I saw them being sold in big box stores, I decided to own one.

When, if, these “pistol AR’s” with brace are sold likewise, then I’d pick one up.

In the meantime, I can enjoy one without the brace as well.

Yeah, I'm thinking a bare tube is the safest way to go.

I would love to discuss this in depth, but as a dealer whose company does not advertise on the board, I don't want to get slapped around for promoting our company without being a sponsor. Its happened before, juice ain't worth the squeeze. Give me a call and I'd be happy to discuss it personally however my friend.

Thorsden makes a buffer tube cover, it has battery storage compartments and lets you get a cheek weld on it, it can rest on your shoulder but you cant really truly shoulder it like a rifle.  Works fine for me

Just looked it up. Looks handy.

I don't deal with a lot of "other" category stuff, other than receivers.
The only AR pistols that come through my door go to local LEOs.

Well fixed mag AR pistols are perfectly legal. Or non semi auto AR pistols.

And these "others" are not considered rifles or pistols in NY...especially if they don't have a stock (or have an arm brace) and have a 16 inch barrel (although shorter barrels appear to be OK on these per NY law)...

Not a rifle, not a pistol, Not an SBR...Not covered by NY gun laws.

I am sure it won't take long for someone to tattle to the NYSP who will tattle to Cuomo to make a new law though...

Come on SCOTUS....

I am aware.
The topic comes up on a semi-regular basis

Damn really? I just heard about these "others" a few weeks ago...It's a game changer until someone tattles to the politicians.

And with it you get a free resisting arrest charge, free failure to comply charge, busted door and stolen computer.  I heard about a time and place being Jewish wasn’t illegal, but boy was it tough.  Then it got worse.

I'll wait for a defining letter from NYSP or a test case to play out in the courts before selling one.

Does NYSP or anyone do FFL checks? I know the ATF does compliance checks at FFLs, but I'm guessing they don't give two shits about state law compliance. Just curious about the shops that already sell these things in NY, and if any LE agency does any checks of what they're selling.

Let me get the question straight: "Pistol" (therefor registered to the Handgun Licensee) having an Upper receiver attached with a 16" or longer barrel (as measured by BATFE standards) giving the gun an overall length > (greater than) 26 inches OAL. is that the question, if so it is now a Rifle. ATF says you can make a "Rifle" from a "Handgun" but you may not make a "handgun" from a "Rifle" else it would be a "Short-Barreled Rifle"

There is no issue that I can find with taking your "Pistol" lower irrespective of length and putting any damn thing you like on it. The County/State may cry that every caliber be listed such as done with Firearms such as T/C Contenders that use multiple Barrels, but that no big deal.

Confusion often comes from differences between Federal Law and State Law, and the premise that States can add onto Federal Law to increase its strength, but cannot detract from it. (at least that's what I've been taught)

(one day I'll research just who wrote the NFA of 1934 and the GCA of 1968, and wouldn't be a damn bit surprised if they were from NY/NYC)

Back to the topic: you cannot take a receiver, built as a Rifle (standard is having had either a rifle length or carbine length buffer tube screwed into the receiver in the case of "Other" ) and make it into a handgun.
You can take a stripped Frame/Receiver that has NEVER been made into a gun and make it a "Handgun" and in the case of New York, contact your Licensing Division for their Policy, but all should know how to amend the License for a New/home built.

"Other" The Shockwave and their sort fall under the category of "Other" by Federal Definitions, and since NY's Laws reflect the same definitions for "Firearms" as the Federal Law does, they lack characteristics necessary to classify as "Firearms" so may be sold to anyone 21 years old without disqualifications.  BATFE reviews EVER gun or design BEFORE being brought to market, as well as things such as drop-on Uppers, and if they bless off on it then its ostensibly good-to-go (at least until some new Bureaucrat decides his predecessor was wrong)
They've been sold here in NY for several years now, and if there was issue, do you not think the NYSP wouldn't be up everyone's ass about it?

Actually you can: If you're arrested and Charged with a Crime by Officers/DA knowing that the Law hasn't been broken or incorrectly interpreted then THEY can be held accountable both Civilly and Financially. Remember that little thing about Cops asking during a traffic stop "DO you have any weapons in the Vehicle?"  it applies here.

I don't know about the NFA of 1934 but GCA '68 was written by Senator Thomas J. Dodd of Connecticut (father of Senator Chris Dodd). Apparently a lot of his bill was lifted from the Nazi Weapons Law of 1938. Not really surprising since there are only so many ways to outlaw guns and the Nazi's pretty much covered all the bases. Just like the Roman's invented just about every form of taxation known.

Yes, Unlike ATF, they are not limited to an annual visit.
In my experience its a Trooper who's at the end of their career. they come in, they look over the books, small talk, etc.

So they don't even check for Safe Act compliance on guns in the store? That's interesting. I'd think that would be one of the main goals of a state level check of gun stores.

You all are braver than I am.

If we don't exercise the few gun "rights" we have left in this liberal shithole of a state, what's the point?

It is legal. Do you not make a neutered AR for fear of arrest by an incorrect LEO too?

I'm sure they spend more time with the full B & M places.
I'm just a guy in a shed.
The guns I have on premises are things being ordered in and the occasional estate stuff I'm taking care of

Your opinion is it is legal, and it may well be. Bushboar has made a very compelling argument as to what is most likely to happen.

You are free to do as you wish, but telling other people it’s legal isn’t going to do anything to protect them if they get jammed up.

It’s all academic until it’s not.

It’s not a stock PER FEDERAL LAW. That’s not to say that it can’t be considered a stock UNDER STATE LAW. We live in a state that says a muzzle break is a brake because it is clear what the legislature intended. If a brace can be shouldered and function as a stock, I can see the state saying it is a stock, and a jury agreeing.

Again, on a black and white analysis you are likely correct, but when has NY ever cared about that? Do as you wish, but please don’t tell people they will be fine.

Hell, if you decide to be the test case, I’ll sell a gun to donate to your defense fund. I just don’t see it going well.

It’s a good question as a brace is not a stock under federal law. Could a judge and jury declare them to be under state law? Most definitely.

AR pistols go on permits with fixed magazines, so SAFE does not apply. These others have detachable mags and other features. The question is would a jury consider the brace to be a stock, and thus the “other” under federal law to be an SBR under N.Y. law. If they did, you are good and truly fucked.

Couple that with ATF changing its mind repeatedly as to whether a brace can be shouldered and a DA will likely argue it was the functional equivalent of a stock.

A bare buffer tube would definitely offer more protection, and with a good sling and vertical grip you could pull the weapon forward and achieve a more stable shooting platform. Not as good as a brace, but you’d remove a major argument from the prosecutor’s arsenal.