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Posted: 2/23/2006 3:27:56 PM EDT
I'm looking at the various AKs listed on aimsurplus, are any of them NY legal?

I was guessing that the third one listed wouldn't be since it had a folding stock, flash hider, and bayonet lug. I can't tell on the first..if the folding stock is the only "bad" item on it, I'd think it was legal.

Yugoslavian AK M70AB2

Romanian WASR-2

AK WASR

Romanian AK-GPWASR
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 3:58:33 PM EDT
The WASR-2 might be legal, the rest are out (they all have pistol grips, which count). The WASR-2 might also be out due to its mag's (which might not be pre-ban).
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 4:20:21 PM EDT
the wasr is, the mag may or may not be depending if it's a preban mag
the two folders are out due to pistol grip and folding stock
the last one is out due to flash hider
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 6:19:44 PM EDT
Yeah, the only AK there that is NY legal is the WASR-2. The mag is also legal. Don't buy it though. 5.45x39 ammo is impossible to find. If you want a good AK, go to http://www.classicarms.us/htm/firearms.htm and buy the NY compliant WASR-10 for $279!! Best deal out there for a new AK. Atlantic firearms also has the same gun for $339 I believe. It's not worth buying an AK-74 clone (WASR-2) because there is currently a huge ammo shortage and when it returns, the price will be much more expensive. Get an AK chambered in the original caliber-7.62x39. Currently, there is also a shortage with 7.62 but no where near as bad as 5.45.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 7:31:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 2:49:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/24/2006 2:49:46 AM EDT by feraldan]
Are MAK-90's legal in NYS? New in box, unmodified? Thumbhole stock.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 5:30:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By feraldan:
Are MAK-90's legal in NYS? New in box, unmodified? Thumbhole stock.



Yes, I am sure those are perfectly legsl here, except NYC of course......
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 8:05:17 AM EDT
alright, thanks. might have to check local gun shops then, every AK i see for sale has illegal (by NY laws) items on them.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 3:26:47 PM EDT

Yes, I am sure those are perfectly legsl here, except NYC of course......


Even though MAK-90's are made by Norinco?

NYS Gun Laws:
"receivers of such weapons, or copies or duplicates
of such weapons, in any caliber, known
as:
(i) Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies
Avtomat Kalashnikovs (all models);"
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 3:46:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/24/2006 6:49:10 PM EDT by Ne1]

Originally Posted By feraldan:

Yes, I am sure those are perfectly legsl here, except NYC of course......


Even though MAK-90's are made by Norinco?

NYS Gun Laws:
"receivers of such weapons, or copies or duplicates
of such weapons, in any caliber, known
as:
(i) Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies
Avtomat Kalashnikovs (all models);"



Yes, it's legal. It's not a Norinco "Avtomat Kalashnikov (all models)", it's a Norinco MAK-90. The original Norincos and Polytechs had "AK-47" stamped on the receiver, which MAK-90s do not have. It's only an "Avtomat Kalashnikov", AK-47, AR-15, etc. if the gun has those names marked onto the receiver. Welcome to: Circumventing Gun Laws 101. Mitchell was just an importer of Polytechs.

That part of the law makes no sense anyway because Norinco and Polytech "AK-47s" were already banned from importation at the time the AWB was written and all of those guns already in the country were grand fathered(as preban and legal) in the same law. Go figure.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 4:14:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Raptor22:

Originally Posted By sharky30:
the wasr is, the mag may or may not be depending if it's a preban mag
the two folders are out due to pistol grip and folding stock
the last one is out due to flash hider



That is not a flash hider on the last one and it is not the reason that it is out. It is a slant brake and was legal under the expired Federal AW as long as it was permanently attached to the barrel. That is one of the reasons that the last one is out. The other is that it has a bayonet lug.



the site called it a flash hider
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 6:36:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/24/2006 6:39:09 PM EDT by feraldan]
Ne1 and tokarz1, thanks a bunch for the answers.

Its a shame, I passed up a killer deal on a brand new MAK-90 because I thought they were illegal here.

Oh well.

I misread it to mean 'any firearm made by Norinco, Mitchell or Poly Tech = illegal'

So long as I follow the standard 'evil' features rules on any ak made after 94, I'm good to go?
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 7:11:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By feraldan:
So long as I follow the standard 'evil' features rules on any ak made after 94, I'm good to go?



Yes. You can also have muzzle brakes like the AK slant brake or the AK-74 compensator as long as it's permanantly attached. Get a Romanian SAR-1 or WASR-10 ban compliant model. Most of them don't look that pretty but they are built like tanks and you can't beat the price. You won't regret it. The only difference is the SAR-1 has magwell dimples and WASR-10s do not. They are real military AKs made by the Romanian Military Aresenal, not made by a US consumer company or from a parts kit. SAR-1s are harder to find since they aren't imported anymore but many people are selling their AKs because of the ammo shortage. SAR-1s usually go for around $350-400. WASR-10s are everywhere. Like I said earlier, classicarms.us has NY legal WASR-10s for only $279! You won't find a better deal for a quality AK. Impact guns and atlantic firearms also have the ban compliant WASR-10 at a reasonable price.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 4:01:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/25/2006 4:25:55 AM EDT by feraldan]
Well the MAK-90 comes with a chrome-lined barrel and I heard overall they are a vastly superior build of AK.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the SAR-1's and WASR's don't come with chrome-lined barrels? I've never owned either build of AK before however I've heard from various sources to beware WASR's. AK-47.net doesn't speak very highly of them either.

I heard the lack of mag dimples on the WASR's causes magazine 'wiggle' and jams. Is this true? I've heard horror stories of magazines dropping free of the weapon by themselves. I've also heard stories of the gas tube and sights not lining up properly.

When you say they're not pretty, are you referring to their finish? The quality of the wood? I don't mind replacing that junk because its a dime a dozen anywhere on the internet. I worry about the barrel warping, constant jams, inaccuracy, etc. Fit and finish doesn't concern me, only performance.

Do you own that specific rifle? Just curious.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 4:25:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/25/2006 5:11:26 PM EDT by Ne1]

Originally Posted By feraldan:
Well the MAK-90 comes with a chrome-lined barrel and I heard overall they are a vastly superior build of AK.

BS. Nothing is superior about a MAK. The only thing about Chinese AKs that people hold in higher regard is their FCGs(trigger groups) for being marginally smoother. All AKs have chrome lined barrels with the exception of "Yugo"(Yugoslavian) AKs. Most MAK-90s don't have "straight cut receivers", so you CAN'T replace the thumbhole stock with a regular buttstock. If you look at a regular MAK, you will see the rear of the receiver has a "slant cut". Ironwood designs makes a special buttstock that would work but it still doesn't look right. And if you manage to find one with a straight cut receiver, you still have to do major fitting for a regular buttstock to fit because Chinese AKs use out of spec 1.5 mm thick receivers. The spec is 1.0 mm. Besides from that, they are regular AKs and are just as accurate and reliable as any AK.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the SAR-1's and WASR's don't come with chrome-lined barrels?
Again, all AKs have chrome lined barrels except Yugos.

I've never owned either build of AK before however I've heard from various sources to beware WASR's. AK-47.net doesn't speak very highly of them either.

When people say "beware", they don't mean the gun is a POS innacurate jam-o-matic. None of that is true. They mean beware the finish and laminate furniture(the hardwood stocks sets are really nice) are probably going to be ugly, you might have "trigger slap" that can easily be fixed or you might have slightly canted gas block or front sight post. Nothing to "beware" of functionality/reliability wise. Romanian AKs are great and have been the best value in the assault rifle world since 1999. AKs were not designed to be pretty and these Romy AKs were made for their military. Most military rifles have bad finishes.

I heard the lack of mag dimples on the WASR's causes magazine 'wiggle' and jams. Is this true?

Any AK mag can wiggle in any AK. Some fit tighter than others. It's really not a problem. If you want really tight mags that are guaranteed to not wiggle, buy the bulgarian waffles or Chinese mags. WASRs have inserts welded onto the inside of the receiver which accomplishes the same thing as dimples. Most people want the dimples because of looks and prefer SARs over WASRs for that reason. Lack of dimples cannot cause jams. AKs do not jam. That's what makes them so great. You can litterally shoot thousands and thousands of rounds out of them, fill the receiver with mudd or sand, run them over, never clean them and anything else you can think of and they will always fire every time.

I've heard horror stories of magazines dropping free of the weapon by themselves.
AK mags cannot drop free. They are locked in much tighter than most guns, especially AR-15s.

I've also heard stories of the gas tube and sights not lining up properly.

"Canted" gas tubes and front sight posts were a problem with the early SARs but for the most part that problem has been fixed. A little "cant" doesn't hurt the functionality at all. The gas piston will still work fine if the gas block is canted and you can still zero fine with a slightly canted front sight post. This is not an uncommon problem in the gun world. People spend $1000 plus on expensive AR-15s from top brands and still get canted front sight posts. You can easily fix them with little effort. If you can inspect the rifle in person, make sure everything looks straight by looking down the middle. Don't shoulder the rifle to detect cant because a perfectly straight rifle will look canted while shouldered. If you are buying online, ask the seller if everything is straight. They will know what you are talking about.

When you say they're not pretty, are you referring to their finish? The quality of the wood?
Correct, the finish isn't good and the wood is hit and miss. All romanian guns have crappy finishes with scuffs and surface scratches but nothing major. Some are worse than others. The hardwood furniture is really nice but the laminated furniture is usually ugly, IMO. The guns might not be that pretty but they are built like tanks and the "fit" is very good.

I don't mind replacing that junk because its a dime a dozen anywhere on the internet. I worry about the barrel warping, constant jams, inaccuracy, etc.
Absolutely nothing to worry about. If you want a really accurate rifle, than an AK is not for you. They were designed to be accurate enough within 150 meters. i.e. man sized targets. Some are more accurate than others but the average accuracy from any brand of AK is probably around 4-6 inch groups at 100 yards or 4-6 MOA. It's not just the rifle but the 7.62x39 round itself isn't terribly accurate. AKs chambered in 5.45x39 and .223 are slightly more accurate.

Fit and finish doesn't concern me, only performance.
Then a Romanian AK is EXACTLY what you are looking for!

Do you own that specific rifle? Just curious.
I own two SAR-1s and an SAR-2. I know people that have WASRs and they love 'em. I'm planning on buying a WASR-10 from classic arms very soon. You can't go wrong with the $279 price tag. I'm also looking for a reasonably priced preban Polytech underfolder.



Also, Romy AKs come with a built in side rail scope mount which most AKs do not come with and they are very difficult to install yourself. This is very convient for adding the beloved "KOBRA" red dot sight or PSOP AK scope. I highly recommend the Kobra. You can buy them here: http://www.freedomoptics.com/Comersus/store/comersus_dynamicIndex.asp
and for the quality of these sights, $179 for brand new one is a steal! You can get them used for around $120-150.

The only AK you should NEVER even consider buying is a Hesse US built rifle because their receivers were not properly heat treated. That goes for any Hesse gun.

Go to this website and forum to learn more about them.
http://www.gunsnet.net/Linx310/index.shtml

http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=37
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 5:06:34 PM EDT
Ne1,

Again, thanks for the great response.

I've actually already read through the site you referenced.

I've been in the market for an AK for quite awhile but haven't settled on anything yet. My original choice was an SAR-1 but I got talked out of it in favor of the MAK-90 (which I didn't buy because of legal issues.) Then I started looking at SAR-1's again. I can't say I considered WASR's because a lot of people talk negatively about them (whether they're right or wrong, its just out there.)

The other issue is hi-cap mags. Its a small matter to buy the $279 WASR but it comes with a 30rd mag and are these not made after the 94 ban? Most of these Century WASR's are post-ban so are the mags post-ban as well?

Should I tell them not to ship the 30rd'er and then try to locate a pre-ban 30?

Is the SAR-1 worth the extra $100 over the WASR?
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 5:27:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/25/2006 5:32:40 PM EDT by Ne1]
Read my edit about the scope rail.

WASRs are the same thing as SAR-1s with the lack of dimples. Also, the newer WASRs come with Tapco G2 trigger groups($40 retail value) which are excellent triggers. SARs and the older WASRs had crappy century triggers which were known for trigger slap but replacing them is a breeze. Are they worth an extra 100? Well, are dimples worth an extra hundred bucks to you? The functionality is the same. The nice thing about WASRs are, they are easy to find and cheap. Personally, I would look for the SAR for around $379 NIB/$350ish used on gunbroker.com or a classified forum and get the WASR later. AKs are addictive. Be careful if you buy a used SAR though, many people threaded their barrels after the federal AWB expired, which means they aren't NY legal anymore.

As far as AK mags being preban... ALL imported AK mags/drums are preban but that doesn't mean all companies will ship them to NY but most will. The price has gone up lately but you can get new 20/30 rounders for around $10, new 40 round for $18ish, Romanian 75rd drums for $79ish and Chinese drums for around $120. The only AK mags that aren't preban are US made mags and they are crap anyways. You wouldn't want them even if they were legal. Nothing to worry about.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 9:52:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/26/2006 4:51:43 AM EDT by feraldan]
I'm looking at a SAR1 on gunbroker right now.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=44213645

He said that his gunsmith already eliminated the trigger slap.

Which would you take, the SAR or the WASR you mentioned off classicarms?

What's the difference between the WASR-10 and the WASR GP?

Didn't mean to hijack this thread BTW, sorry!
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 11:40:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By feraldan:
I'm looking at a SAR1 on gunbroker right now.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=44213645

He said that his gunsmith already eliminated the trigger slap.

Which would you take, the SAR or the WASR you mentioned off classicarms?

What's the difference between the WASR-10 and the WASR GP?

Didn't mean to hijack this thread BTW, sorry!



I wouldn't buy that gun. I only bid on guns from sellers that have multiple positive feedback ratings as a seller, not just as a buyer. Also, I'd never buy a gun without seeing good pics of it. It looks like he is hiding something by only showing a picture of the receiver and I don't know why he would give the last digits of the serial number. The only digits that are important with Romy AKs are the first two digits which indicate the year it was made. 03-xxxx-S1 would mean it's an SAR-1 made in 2003. Some guns have a 4 digit date prefix, such as 2003-xxxx-S1. Generally speaking, the 02 and 03 models are better quality(less chance of cant and better fit/finish). Keep looking, you can get a new one with a couple 30 round mags for around the same price from a good seller. Like this one from COLLECTOR RIFLE & AMMO: gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=43843754
Depending on where you live in NY, you could even pick it up in person. This one looks very nice as well: www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=44198663
Keep in mind, most sellers on gunbroker are not FFL holders, so make sure your dealer will accept a transfer from a non-FFL dealer. Some will and some will not, even though it's perfectly legal to do so.

There usually isn't a difference between a WASR-10 and a WASR GP, due to incorrect advertising. WASR GP is supposed to mean it is a "no ban" gun with evil features which differentiates it from post ban NY legal WASR-10s. Most people don't know that so they use the names interchangably.

Get the SAR-1. I can already tell you are the type that will always wonder what you are missing out on with the SAR-1 if you get a WASR, even though the answer is nothing. SARs are not as easy to find or as cheap as the WASR but it's gonna be your rifle. Get what you really want. You will be not be disappointed either way because they are both great guns.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 11:58:23 AM EDT
thanks for the info. I picked up a WASR at the Middletown show this weekend....came with 2 pre-ban 30rd mags. Hopefully I'll be able to hit the range with it next weekend.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 12:48:08 PM EDT
Well I got up this morning and decided to drive up to Collector's Rifle and Ammo (about an hour or so north of where I am in Westchester) and I ended up buying a SAR-1.

NIB for $370. Thinking that if I got it from out of state, you're looking at shipping plus the FFL costs which makes it not worth it. Its an 03 and came with the cleaning kit, sling and a 10rd mag. That 10rd is a bitch to get in the gun. I picked up a couple 30rd pre-bans and they fit BEAUTIFULLY.

And you're right, if I got the WASR, I'd end up buying the SAR-1 anyhow.. so why waste money?

First impressions: 1) the wood is better quality than I expected (I went through a few until I got one with matching furniture.) 2) the barrel is better quality than I expected. 3) the finish on the receiver is lower than what I expected.

I stripped it, cleaned it top to bottom with degreaser and then re-oiled it. Eventually, I'll restain the wood and blue the hardware.

Ne1, again thanks for all your advice. I'm quite happy with the purchase.

And I have to plug Collector's... they have a great selection. The shop is very crowded but their prices are fair and they have a killer selection.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 10:32:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/27/2006 11:55:17 AM EDT by Ne1]
Congrats guys on your new AKs! They won't be your last.

$370 is a very good price NIB, especially since you had the opportunity to hand select the rifle you wanted and take it home the same day..And an hour is not too far to drive for a new AK.

Just curious though..Every time I call or email Collector Rifle they give me the run around. About how many SAR-1s did they have in stock? Any cases of 7.62x39 ammo? Did you notice any cases of 5.45x39 or .223 of ammo? Notice any preban guns, like underfolder AKs or AR-15s?
Thanks!
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 10:52:33 AM EDT

ROMAINIAN AK , Hi -CAP Rifle with Original Hardwood Pistol Grip Stock, 2-30 Rd Mags, Sling, Cleaning Kit, Manual Etc..Special..$279.95. TO GET THIS PRICE YOU MUST TELL YOUR OPERATOR OR MENTION IT IN YOUR ORDER.

From the Classic Arms site. What exactly does that mean? I only ask because the price is right.
I'd like to get out to a gun show and pick one up, especially because I just finished the FFL transfer from hell, but I don't know of any shows in CNY that are coming up, so I'm consigned to an online purchase/FFL transfer.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 11:06:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By thirsty:

ROMAINIAN AK , Hi -CAP Rifle with Original Hardwood Pistol Grip Stock, 2-30 Rd Mags, Sling, Cleaning Kit, Manual Etc..Special..$279.95. TO GET THIS PRICE YOU MUST TELL YOUR OPERATOR OR MENTION IT IN YOUR ORDER.

From the Classic Arms site. What exactly does that mean? I only ask because the price is right.
I'd like to get out to a gun show and pick one up, especially because I just finished the FFL transfer from hell, but I don't know of any shows in CNY that are coming up, so I'm consigned to an online purchase/FFL transfer.



It just means that their normal price is more expensive to people that don't know about that special price, like people who randomly call them or shop in their store. You have to tell them you want the web special price if you call, email or mail an order to them. I know there is a Gun show in a few months in Syracuse.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 11:14:30 AM EDT
I don't mean to jack the thread, but it's funny how I live in Syracuse and I have no friggin idea what's going on here in terms of gun shows. I asked about the 'Cuse show in another thread, and didn't get a response. Where do I find info about it? I've searched online and only found info about past shows.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 11:36:32 AM EDT
The big gun show in Syracuse is every April at the NYS Fairgrounds. I think it's always the third weekend. Try google.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 12:45:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/27/2006 12:46:33 PM EDT by feraldan]
Ne1,

Yeah I thought I got a pretty good deal too. They tried to sell me the 'floor model' but it was dinged to hell and had mismatched furniture. I asked if he could get me one NIB from the back and he took care of it. The first one he brought out was great so I took that. But hell if it wasn't good, I would of asked for another one.

From what I could see, they had a bunch of SAR's still in the box. They keep them way in the back though where customers normally aren't allowed. They have racks of guns all over the store with colored tags to indicate whether they're new, used, LEO, whatever. They had a Saiga, SAR-1 and WASR GP on the floor all with new tags. You just need to ask for one out of the box with the kit.

They have a ton of 7.62x39 as well. I picked up 100 rds for about $14, which isn't at all bad considering the shortage. He said the price might be jumping again, but they had quite a bit in stock (crates full of Wolf and Cheetah.) They also had lots of .223. I didn't notice any 5.45x39 unfortunately! That's not to say they didn't have it.

You'd really need to go in and walk around. Like I said, they have racks upon racks of guns. A ton of SKS's and AR's. Not too many AK clones, only what I mentioned. No underfolders that I saw but I believe there were some pre-ban AR's.

As far as getting the run-around, I can only say that they certainly have a busy shop. I was having trouble getting around the store without tripping over people. So I imagine if you call in, they might be short with you cause its quite the hangout for a lot of locals. But they seem like a nice group of guys and certainly knowledgable.

I get the impression that if I lived closer, I'd be blowing a lot of money in there on goodies.

BTW, they have a bunch of pre-ban 30rd mags for $15 a pop.
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