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Posted: 1/30/2006 11:26:57 AM EDT
I am hopefully getting a Bulgarian AK74 from a board member...im having a thumbhole stock installed, the bayonet lugs removed.......the NYS Troopers and Pistol Permit Bureau DO NOT CONSIDER the thumbhole stock to be a pistol grip, as it does not pertrude conspiciously beneath the rifle.....so in fact I only have the one evil feature, the threaded muzzle.

I think I need one more US part to be 922 compliant however, is this correct?

US PARTS:
Reciever=1
Gas Piston=1
FCG=3

Total=5


I need a 6th because of the threaded muzzle/muzzle attachment however correct?

This is what the rifle would look like in the configuration described:

Link Posted: 1/30/2006 1:14:13 PM EDT
The detachable mag is an evil feature!

AFAIK, The AK74 muzzle threads do not accept any know flash hiders, so it is not evil.
You might not even have to Silver solder that break on.

Yes, with the muzzle device you need 6 US parts.


Put a US pistol grip on it and the std butt.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 1:43:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By valkyrie0002:
The detachable mag is an evil feature!

AFAIK, The AK74 muzzle threads do not accept any know flash hiders, so it is not evil.
You might not even have to Silver solder that break on.

Yes, with the muzzle device you need 6 US parts.


Put a US pistol grip on it and the std butt.



no detachable mags arnt evil features....

you can have

detachable magazine + pistol grip
OR
detachable magazine + threaded muzzle
OR
detachable magazine + bayonet lug
OR
detachable magazine + folding stock


Bulgarian AK74 threading does accept flash hiders of some sorts, your thinking of the Romanian SAR-2s, which done accept any flash hiders because of their unique threading.

Link Posted: 1/30/2006 1:46:50 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 2:01:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
Pay to have the break permamently soldered in place or pinned and spot welded and you can leave a standard buttstock on.



i can do that myself, I just need to get the rifle shipped to me so i can make the modification myself....the guy im getting it from cant do it.... i just need it legal so I can have it mailed, recieved and accepted.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 7:09:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/30/2006 7:17:06 PM EDT by AKsRule]
Dieter , please listen.

If you are having the rifle shipped to your FFL , be aware that a semiauto rifle with a Pistol grip ,bayonet lugs, and a
threaded muzzle - which accepts detachable magazines , is Illegal under the NY AWB.
(Unless it is a Preban)

www.nraila.org/GunLaws/StateLaws.aspx?ST=NY
Scroll down and read the part about Assault weapons
-----------------------------------
An Astute FFL will not log it in , as he would be in violation of State Law.

If you are doing a Private Sale , and it is shipped directly to you , YOU are still in Violation
of the Law until the Modifications are done.

Also I would not rely on the NYSP as "Firearms Law Experts"

As far as the US parts count , this is Federal Law , and has not changed.

You need LESS THAN 10 Foreign PARTS in the gun (from the List.)

Usually you can get by with changing 5 to US parts ; 6 if you use a FOREIGN Muzzle Device.

Most AK conversions use a US hammer ,trigger,disconnecter, gas piston, and stock parts.

Be safe and stay Legal
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 7:23:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AKsRule:
Dieter , please listen.

If you are having the rifle shipped to your FFL , be aware that a semiauto rifle with a Pistol grip ,bayonet lugs, and a
threaded muzzle - which accepts detachable magazines , is Illegal under the NY AWB.
(Unless it is a Preban)

www.nraila.org/GunLaws/StateLaws.aspx?ST=NY
Scroll down and read the part about Assault weapons
-----------------------------------
An Astute FFL will not log it in , as he would be in violation of State Law.

If you are doing a Private Sale , and it is shipped directly to you , YOU are still in Violation
of the Law until the Modifications are done.

Also I would not rely on the NYSP as "Firearms Law Experts"

As far as the US parts count , this is Federal Law , and has not changed.

You need LESS THAN 10 Foreign PARTS in the gun (from the List.)

Usually you can get by with changing 5 to US parts ; 6 if you use a FOREIGN Muzzle Device.

Most AK conversions use a US hammer ,trigger,disconnecter, gas piston, and stock parts.

Be safe and stay Legal



I dont think you read my post...the rifle will have a THUMBHOLE STOCK, and a threaded muzzle.....

Thumbhole stocks are not considered by NYS to be pistol grips, ...I take what the Pistol Permit Bureau says as the law, because they are the "experts" on the matter, aka the FINAL SAY. I also emailed the Attourney General, to get confirmation on this.... The troopers concur with me, as well as several FIREARMS DEALERS, that a thumbhole AK with a threaded muzzle is LEGAL.

The parts count will be correct as I am having the guy install them before its shipped....

When was the last time you had a rifle ripped apart in a dealers shop to check and see if your gas piston was labeled "TAPCO" or your pistol grip has a "C" for Century? The rifle will be legal and 922 compliant.

No muzzle device may be used, and therefore 5 US parts would be legal
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 7:32:13 PM EDT
MY BAD! ,
I missed the part about having the mods done Before you get the rifle.

Do check the US parts when you get it though , some builders have been known
to skimp on this
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 7:35:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AKsRule:
MY BAD! ,
I missed the part about having the mods done Before you get the rifle.

Do check the US parts when you get it though , some builders have been known
to skimp on this



ive talked with the owner several times on the phone, and I have purchased the proper parts (which will be installed prior to shipment).... also no FFL ive been to has ever checked for 922 compliance, thats a non-issue.... my rifles are all compliant, but i dont worry about anything happening if they wernt.

when I get it, likely I will silver soder the brake, and make it PG config once again....not sure, black synthetic or blonde wood? hmm
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 7:58:21 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 8:08:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/30/2006 8:11:43 PM EDT by Dieter122]

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
Here is a word of advice, don't post in here about doing anything illegal... taking delivery of the rifle without the brake affixed is not legal! You are also exposing your dealer by doing so.

Please have the rifle completely disassembled then. No stock or pistol grip installed. That way you just have a barreled receiver at time of delivery. Do not place grip or buttstock on the rifle until the brake has been installed.

I'm no lawyer, so take that advice accordingly. But with the furniture removed the receiver can accept a detachable mag (1 feature) and have a threaded muzzle (2nd feature). I would even go so far as to pay a few bucks and have the furniture shipped seperately and not have them in your home until the brake is on... that way you are not even in possession of the parts to violate the AWB.

Honestly, I would just have it sent to a smith and have it done before being sent to you. It might cost more, but its a hell of a lot cheaper than legal bills.



? if the brake isnt installed, then only 5 US parts are required correct? I thought if I used a foreign muzzle device then the 6th US part would be required......?

Also, simply being in possession of parts doesnt violate any laws....having a folding stock next to a rifle that already had one "evil" feature doesnt constitute it as an assault weapon....if it was a FA bolt carrier for an AR or whatever thatd be different

If the muzzle device isnt installed, I would be 922 compliant....

for "evil" features...it would be 1) detachable magazine, 2) threaded muzzle.....as I said before the NYS Pistol Permit Bureau told me a thumbhole stock doesnt constitute a pistol grip.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 8:52:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/30/2006 8:55:37 PM EDT by HiramRanger]
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 9:07:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
You are debating a mix of federal and state law. You are playing with fire. Do so at your own risk. Do me a favor stay away from B&J Guns, we don't want people playing fast and loose with compliance issues transferring through our shop!

You have been told time and time again not to do this. You think a phone call to the State Police pistol licensing bureau is coverage, it is not! The AG and the DAs will decide when to prosecute, and even if you prevail, you'll be broke. If that possibility is worth it to you, go for it, but you won;t find any sympathy here as you have been advised not to pursue this course of action.

As for having the parts... bullshit. Unless you have a verfified preban those parts can go to, if they are readily installable on your post ban... say a folding stock as made by Tapco, the DA may pursue constructive possession charges. In other words, you may not have yet broken the law, but it was your intent to and you were in possession of the tools to do so.

If you haven't figured it out, NYS is NOT a gun friendly state. I've IMed you a thorough explanation, and others here have offered advice. You have been advised how t handle this to remain compliant and not jeapordize yourself or your dealer. I suggest you take that to heart.

ETA Dieter has contacted the AG for an opinion... while I doubt one is forthcoming, or if it does that it will prove what he wants to hear, at least he has taken the step to try to get a binding opinion.



You dont have to warn me to stay away from B&Js thanks, and if you want to say that , do so in a PM.... im simply asking questions , reading answers and taking it from there....do you really think i would go ahead and do something that i know to be illegal.....its odd because as I said before, I contacted the local FFL I normally goto for transfers....and asked him about this and the legalities, he said its perfectly legal also...and he is a very picky and particular person, he wouldnt do anything to jeapardize his license. Again at this point im just being inquisitive, and have done nothing illegal or out of line, so let me just continue to ask questions until I get a solid answer one way or the other, from a good reputable source of NYS law.

Well the DA will have a field day if they came into my house...I have 3 post ban AKs, but then I also have a few parts kits with folding stocks (reason I got these was so when I moved)....how exactly would they charge me with doing anything wrong.....if NYS has a "pre crime" law division, then we are already good as dead, when the state decides that they will charge you on a crime you havnt even committed yet.

the AG answered me last time I wrote them a message concerning firearm legalities...hopefully they will return my email.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 9:37:45 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 9:47:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
With AKs, most that have folding stocks utilize a different rear trunion than a standard stock AK. Thus your folder would not necessarily fit on your AK... not readily installable.

I think I have a solution for you, chck your IM box.

And yes, I'm very protective concerning B&J... there were some issues when the current owner jointly ran the shop with his partner. ATF got involved and it was not pretty. As a result Brian went from being very vigilant to HYPER vigilant. No need to hash that whole issue out again, just saying Brian is a tightass among tightasses when it comes to compliance and takes no chances. With Spitzer's ascension all but sure, gun dealers are living on borrowed time and don't need to give anyone any ammunition. So, if I came across as overprotective I apologize. Brian has been very good to the site and the folks in this forum tend to look out for him in return,



i wouldnt do anything purposely to jeopardize others...im just posting here to find solutions and discover legalities of configurations...also to post my findings from conacting the various people/organizations/etc that i have thus far.

thanks for all your help, that PM will surely help...ill make some phone calls tomorrow....

I read about the problems that happened over at B&Js, thats never good....

ive actually been meaning to stop up to B&Js as I mentioned in a PM to you some weeks back when I asked about what AKs they have in stock....I want to see what kind of rifles they have on hand.

I pray Spitzer isnt elected....its bad enough as it is..... what we need to do, is start reversing laws, not sitting back until new ones are put into place...or else its just a matter of time until we are out of options in the way of firearms....
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 10:21:10 PM EDT
This is the last time I'm going to say this... A THUMBHOLE STOCK WAS RULED AS A PISTOL GRIP BY THE ATF DURING THE FEDERAL AWB. If you really think that the New York State Police and the anti-gun Eliot Spitzer is going to over-rule the ATF, so you can have a threaded barrel / flash hider on your "evil AK-47", you deserve to get busted for being incredibly stupid. What you have there is an illegal assault weapon because there are too many evil features and you face up to TEN YEARS IN PRISON AND A $10,000 FINE. Is it really worth it to walk a legal tight rope for a gun that you can't even buy ammo for?
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 10:26:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ne1:
This is the last time I'm going to say this... A THUMBHOLE STOCK WAS RULED AS A PISTOL GRIP BY THE ATF DURING THE FEDERAL AWB. If you really think that the New York State Police and the anti-gun Eliot Spitzer is going to over-rule the ATF, so you can have a threaded barrel / flash hider on your "evil AK-47", you deserve to get busted for being incredibly stupid. What you have there is an illegal assault weapon because there are too many evil features and you face up to TEN YEARS IN PRISON AND A $10,000 FINE. Is it really worth it to walk a legal tight rope for a gun that you can't even buy ammo for?



calm your panties down , seriously...

as I said, i contacted the NYS Pistol Permit Bureau.....also I contacted an ATF field office (criminal law office, as it was all that was open at the hour I called), the agent believed thumbhole stocks were good to go..... tomorrow im calling up the detectives at the ATF and asking them...

i will have the muzzlebreak attached for good to the rifle before it is shipped so there is no question to its legality then
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 10:51:55 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 3:59:40 AM EDT
When it comes to legal opinions on the interpretation of the NY law, the final say belongs to the courts and we have no such decisions at this point.

The next best source would be a written opinion from the NY Attorney Generals office. To date I haven't seen one. If someone else has, please post a copy or link.

Personally, I would not rely on an oral opinion given by anyone else and would err way on the side of caution.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 4:18:51 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 10:23:20 AM EDT
Where is the Yoda of NYS AWB laws rkbar15 when you need him...

You may want to send him an IM or email. He seems to know the NYS laws better than anyone.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 11:21:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:

Originally Posted By thedukeryan:
You guys will have to excuse me for not knowing how things work in NY but would a rifle be NY legal if I removed the pistol grip & bayo lugs? It would have a threaded barrel and accecpt high cap mags but would not have a pistol grip. I could then ship the pistol grip to him seperately and he could install it only after he silver soldiers the break on. I think one of you mentioned removing the the pistol grip & butt stock as a option. Would this be NY legal without having to soldier the break on?



That was one of my suggestions, and in theory, SHOULD work. However, the best bet would be for him to have the rifle shipped to a local dealer that is licensed to manufacture machine guns for LE Agencies as that dealer may be in possession of firearms that do not comply under NYS's laws - he has the exemption under his federal license. That dealer is also a gun smith and can permanently affix the brake before Dieter does the transfer, that way by the time Dieter takes delivery the rifle is already 100% compliant.

I've given Dieter the name of this dealer, I've known him for years and he is good people who charges fair prices on gunsmithing and transfers.



HiramRanger, I'm splitting hairs here but the exemption for a machinegun manufacturer is state in nature, not Federal. An FFL bestows no ability to possess anything not legal under state law.

But the plan to send the barrelled receiver alone for affixation of the muzzle break prior to having the pistol grip works fine for NYS purposes.

Although I have to say, with the prices of preban Norincos down to 700-800, you should just buy one of those.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 12:18:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2006 12:21:24 PM EDT by thedukeryan]
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 2:21:21 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:22:42 PM EDT
HiramRanger, I believe I know of whom you are speaking. The only point I was making is that his exemption comes not from his Federal licensure, but rather a state exemption that allows a manufacturer such as him (who must be licensed under Federal law as well) to make and possess machineguns (which ordinarily can't be possessed by even NYS licensed dealers without the state exemption). Like I said, I'm splitting hairs, and I think there's probably 4? 6? such licensed persons in the whole state.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 7:33:05 PM EDT
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