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Posted: 1/9/2006 6:17:29 AM EDT
Almost every range I go to, and many others I know of, have placed restrictions on so called 'rapid fire'. These restrictions do not come from noise complaints from neighbors or a genuine concern for safety, but a fear of a potential complaint or image problem.

The shooting community and those profiting from it have become our own worst enemy - they have lost sight of the fact that guns were developed to kill things - bad people as well as animals. All of the so called 'shooting sports' have developed as ways to sharpen the skills needed to perform these functions. Pistols were not created for Bullseye, shotguns were not developed for Trap & Skeet.

Yet somehow along the way, the Benchrest, Trap/Skeet, Bullseye and Highpower crowd all got to thinking that guns were created for their particular niche and only they have the right to protection. The CAS guys can count themselves in here too.

Then the IPSC, IDPA, and 3-Gun crowd comes along and tries to get back to the roots of shooting as best they can, each in their own way. Many of the participants in these 'action' shooting sports also attend shooting schools and are active LE/Mil and have a genuine interest in sharpening the skills needed to put the bad guy down.

The Benchrest, Trap/Skeet, Bullseye and Highpower crowds at these ranges then proceed to look down their noses at the 'action' guys, running around with high-cap pistols, black rifles and scary shotguns (I say old man - that dosn't look like a Perazzi to me...). They have their clubs/ranges slap a 'No Rapid Fire' rule down on the whole club, with perhaps an exception for sanctioned matches to keep some $$ coming in.

We throw our own people (fellow shooters) under the bus to try to avoid the possibility of a confrontation. It is pre-emptive appeasement, the lowest form of giving in to a bully - surrendering just in case the bully might think about coming over and putting the squeeze on you.

I see it here on this board, in this forum - lots of people OK with limiting 'rapid fire' on LI ranges - 'don't see the need for it' or 'got it out of my system years ago'.

Well, where are you supposed to go and practice for action shooting or self defense? No double or triple taps allowed, no Bill Drills, no shooting 'until the threat is eliminated' drills. If you are LE you should practice a 10 - 15 round mag dump, because statistically that is what you are going to do under fire. We are ruling ourselves into incompetence, apparently with the blessing of our fellow shooter. If you have a gun for self defense you have a moral obligation to practice with it in the manner for which it was meant to be deployed.

The rule should read, 'No Unsafe Shooting'. If you can't shoot fast and on target, then you get called on it and shoot slow. If you can't figure out the need to clear your weapon for a cease fire, then you should get tossed out until you have the knowledge and responsibility to use a shared facility. If you shoot up a frame, you pay for it and learn your lesson. We can't bring it all down to the lowest common denominator. If you make the rules for idiots to follow, you'll be surrounded by idiots on the range.

Link Posted: 1/9/2006 6:50:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2006 6:55:07 AM EDT by StariVojnik]
"Alright there Rambo", "No rapid fire"....im glad ol' Nellie can't see to good!

Your points are well taken and I must agree, if you don't use it, you lose it. Practice makes perfect.


Shoot responsibly
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 7:43:57 AM EDT
NY-EMT

Good post there.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 8:04:55 AM EDT
I too have seen these problems that NY-EMT mentions. Many of the disciplins mentioned have gotten away from the true reasons for owning a gun, defense of oneself and others. To be proficient in that regard one must practice the techniques one might use in such a situation. I for the longest time couldn't figure out why some of the various areas of the shooting sports were "shooting themselves in the foot" by not standing united and supporting all of the various disciplins. Then, while on vacation, I shot skeet with my brother. It was fun! Then it dawned on me. It was similar to (I know I'm going to offend some here - sorry but this is how I see it) throwing darts on a bar team. It's a fun game. It's exciting. It takes skill. But quite frankly, it's just a game that happens to use a shotgun. Sure, it was originally meant as a way to sharpen your bird hunting skills but how many of those who shoot the shotgun sports still do it for that reason. It's taken on a life of it's own. And that took me to the next lightbulb going off in my head. I realized that there are two types of gun owners. Those that own guns and shooters. Shooters are those that actively participate and practice the techniques needed in a defensive situation. THey have adopted "games" that mimic real life situations such as IDPA, 3 gun etc., that test those skills. These are generally also the most active gun rights supporters. The other group are those individuals who own a gun more as a "sidebar" to their real interests. Most of your shotgun guys, etc. seem to fall into that catagory. Granted, there are crossovers between the two groups, and I don't in any way mean to demean the shotgun sports, or highpower or benchrest, or whatever your chosen disciplin is. All of them are extremely difficult, and quite frankly I'll probably never shoot skeet well. It just seems to me that many in the shotgun sports, highpower, etc., have forgotten the true reasons behind the whole thing. So how do we reach those gunowners, I don't know but there has to be a way or eventually we will be disarmed.

Brett

PS. Just as a special note to the highpower shooters, trying to get off 10 aimed shots in 60 seconds seems to many to be rapid fire. So you are probably next on the anti-gunners radar. After all, if the liberals have their way, you won't be able to shoot highpower with a detachable magazine.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 8:55:46 AM EDT
at the range i go to, you can shoot as fast as you want as long as all of your shots hit the paper. they just want to make sure that you aren't shooting so fast your shots are going over the berm or something.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 12:56:04 PM EDT
You can thank every guy who ever screwed around on a range in an unsafe manner for those types of rules.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 1:18:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tc556guy:
You can thank every guy who ever screwed around on a range in an unsafe manner for those types of rules.



While that may be a factor it does not explain why in NJ or NY we have very strict rapid fire rules when most other states are more relaxed, after all we can’t of cornered the market on gun owning idiots here can we?
I think it is just an extension of the usual north east attitude on guns spilling over on to range owners. When we live in a cesspool you have to expect the smell will follow wherever you go.
Rich V

Link Posted: 1/9/2006 1:39:02 PM EDT
The indoor pistol range I go to never said anything to me about my double or triple taps. But then again, I usually go on a weekday morning and am pretty much the only one shooting.

There is another range that I went to once, which limits magazines to 5 rounds loaded at a time. So I stopped going there. If I'm responsible enough to fire a weapon, I'm responsible enough to have the magazines fully loaded.

But back to the local range I normally go to. I've seen local PD's training there guys there. I watched what they did, practiced 2 to the chest and 1 to the head. If I ever was given a hard time about doing the same, I'd remind them "what's good for the goose is good for the gander."
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 3:56:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rich_V:

Originally Posted By tc556guy:
You can thank every guy who ever screwed around on a range in an unsafe manner for those types of rules.



While that may be a factor it does not explain why in NJ or NY we have very strict rapid fire rules when most other states are more relaxed, after all we can’t of cornered the market on gun owning idiots here can we?
I think it is just an extension of the usual north east attitude on guns spilling over on to range owners. When we live in a cesspool you have to expect the smell will follow wherever you go.
Rich V




Actually southern NY and northern NJ has the corner on many anti gun idiots. I lived on Long Island my whole life until 3 years ago. IMO these rules are the results of a few things that are very characteristic of people from the metro ny area.

They are all sue happy. Theres a reason why my truck insurance was $1600 a year on LI, and only $500 a year when I moved to Syracuse. This spills over to the range. Rapid fire=high cap mags fully loaded with the potential for a few things: Sporadic fire that can hit other targets, dangerous riccochets, or wind up being shot out of the range. You can bet the range owners are scarred crapless about a lawsuit and must make attempts to prevent them, which unfortunately affects us. Keep in mind not necessarily how I think, But IMO how the average person in the NY area thinks.

Not to mention it makes it extremely difficult for anybody to make some quality shots when you got somebody squeezing off 30 rounds one after the other right next to you. I dont mind a few rounds rapid fire. But shooting so many rounds is IMO uncourteous to other shooters. Yes you do deserve the right to shoot your discipline too. I agree, theres times Ive been to ranges and wanted to practice some rapid fire along with my precision target shooting. But keep in mind that other people also should be able to do their style too.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 5:33:31 PM EDT
Hope you guys don't mind a CT member posting... I was born and lived in NY for a while, if that counts...

It has been my observation, as an RO, instructor, student, shooter, competitor and one who likes to shoot quickly that these BS rules are based on two things:

1. Range Officer inexperience;
2. Previous unsafe conditions enhanced by someone shooting quickly.

Unfortunately, #1 leads to #2. My observations have led me to believe (plz correct me if I am wrong) that ROs think slow = safe in many aspects of shooting, not just the discharge of shots.

When a shooter speeds things up, whether it be a mag change, refunction drill, target engagement or other weapon manipulation, an inexperienced RO can see that as being unsafe. If someone is being unsafe, they should be corrected, speed does not matter.

Public ranges have Range Officers from many walks of life. Most are shooters that respect firearms, their owners and the various activities surrounding each firearm type. Sadly those ROs are brought down by the more vocal minority of ROs that have a narrow view of firearm types and activities around these types. They don't respect their respective owners or understand the differing disciplines other shooters follow.

Now, add in the power factor. I used to cast it off as BS, but unfortunately, I have seen it first hand. Power can corrupt and putting a weak personality into a position of authority can have bad results. Whether that weak personality is your boss or the RO at your weekend range...
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 1:02:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rich_V:
While that may be a factor it does not explain why in NJ or NY we have very strict rapid fire rules when most other states are more relaxed, after all we can’t of cornered the market on gun owning idiots here can we?
I think it is just an extension of the usual north east attitude on guns spilling over on to range owners. When we live in a cesspool you have to expect the smell will follow wherever you go.
Rich V



I don't see it as being a NY/NJ issue. I see plenty of threads here with guys from all over complaining about range rules.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 4:55:42 PM EDT
Another thing to look at, how about... follow the money?

Example, the benchrest shooters.

The benchrest shooters are there every week. Same guys on the same day, every week. Every week of every month. Every month of every year.

Then I have average Joe. Wanna be buzzguner who comes and bangs away with his SKS. I see him Once a month. Maybe every 5-6 weeks. The benchrest shooters don't distract Mr. SKS. But Mr.SKS distracts the benchrest shooters. Who do I worry more about keeping happy? My bread and butter.

Oversight and safety. I have two pistol shooters on the line. One shooting slow fire bullseye. Very slow rate of fire. Very accurate, all his rounds hit in one tiny group. Next to him a man is practicing IPDA drills. Drawing from a his holster, dynamic reloads, many rounds expended, rapid rate of fire. Now which one of these guys am I going to worry more about? Going to watch more.

Just silly thoughts.


Now, you talk about us being our own worst enemy. You're right. Just read these forums. Just listen to talk at the range. You'd think all these couch commandos were all in combat every day. What's the fascination with killing people?
"The shooting community and those profiting from it have become our own worst enemy - they have lost sight of the fact that guns were developed to kill things - bad people as well as animals. All of the so called 'shooting sports' have developed as ways to sharpen the skills needed to perform these functions. Pistols were not created for Bullseye, shotguns were not developed for Trap & Skeet."

Bravo for having the same mind set as the anti gunners.
The second amendment is not about hunting.
And owning firearms is not about killing people.

Lets be conservative and say I shoot anywhere from 1K to 10K rounds a year. We'll make the math easy and be real conservative and go in the middle with a 5k average. Been shooting for 31 year. 31 years times 5K rounds is 155,000 rounds.
Lets see...
Maybe 80K rounds plinking.
74600 rounds in disciplined target shooting.
400 round hunting.
Zero rounds killing people.

Sorry I can't agree with you that my guns are for killing people. If there are, I'm not doing a very good job at it. An extremely small percentage of them have been used to kill animals. True, I have many guns were designed as weapons of war, and a few that probably have killed people. But I've taken them past that. As long as we keep acting the "killer" stereotype we're never going to gain any ground. (I'm not taking a PC anti combat shooting stance here) It drives me nuts watching discussions in person or on the net, people debating what cartridge or gun is best for shooting people. People who don't know their ass from their elbow. People who can't shoot to save their life, pardon the pun. I think to myself.. "You're worrying yourself to death about something that most likely will never happen, and if it did, you wouldn't be able to hit anything anyway! Why are you so obsessed with killing people? Learn how to shoot.. ANYTHING first. Then worry about IF it comes to that, will it work well enough. I reply to many a silly internet forum question with the Struthers Martin quote... "Son.. can you hit anything?"

Now I'm not against "combat" matches, tactical shooting or the like. But you are correct about the fear of bad public relations. That's the times we're living in, especially here.

Back to the original point.. 'safe shooting only", sure. But most other people at the range want more than just to be safe. They want to enjoy themself. They don't want to be bothered by someone banging away two benches down and spraying them with brass. I know all about annoying other shooters, from shooting short barreled "technical pistols" in noisy calibers with obnoxious muzzle breaks on them, as well as from shooting black powder. I wouldn't want me around either. :) I do everything I can to stay away from other shooters and not have what I'm doing take way their enjoyment, of course you can't always.

I too would like to be able to shoot rapid fire now and then. It sucks trying to be competitive in plate matches and bowling pin shoots when I can't practice full speed for them. I also realize that the people running the range don't want to hear it. The other shooters don't want to hear it. They also don't want to worry about the nut who's "just shootng a fast as he can." I wwish I could shoot fast now and then. If I was serious enough about it I'd join the Pine barrens range.

Link Posted: 1/10/2006 6:43:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By racer934:
Hope you guys don't mind a CT member posting... I was born and lived in NY for a while, if that counts...

It has been my observation, as an RO, instructor, student, shooter, competitor and one who likes to shoot quickly that these BS rules are based on two things:

1. Range Officer inexperience;
2. Previous unsafe conditions enhanced by someone shooting quickly.

Unfortunately, #1 leads to #2. My observations have led me to believe (plz correct me if I am wrong) that ROs think slow = safe in many aspects of shooting, not just the discharge of shots.

When a shooter speeds things up, whether it be a mag change, refunction drill, target engagement or other weapon manipulation, an inexperienced RO can see that as being unsafe. If someone is being unsafe, they should be corrected, speed does not matter.

Public ranges have Range Officers from many walks of life. Most are shooters that respect firearms, their owners and the various activities surrounding each firearm type. Sadly those ROs are brought down by the more vocal minority of ROs that have a narrow view of firearm types and activities around these types. They don't respect their respective owners or understand the differing disciplines other shooters follow.

Now, add in the power factor. I used to cast it off as BS, but unfortunately, I have seen it first hand. Power can corrupt and putting a weak personality into a position of authority can have bad results. Whether that weak personality is your boss or the RO at your weekend range...



+1

If you can make it to High Rock you'll really enjoy it. The range is awesome and well worth the hour trip for me from Westchester
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 9:17:59 AM EDT
cas,

My comments were directed primarily at private clubs whose money comes in the form of yearly dues and match fees, though a financial motive might be a consideration for a public range.

To put this quote back into context,
"The shooting community and those profiting from it have become our own worst enemy - they have lost sight of the fact that guns were developed to kill things - bad people as well as animals. All of the so called 'shooting sports' have developed as ways to sharpen the skills needed to perform these functions. Pistols were not created for Bullseye, shotguns were not developed for Trap & Skeet.",
it was meant to point out that the shooting sports were created to sharpen the skills needed for killing and that today's participants in these sports should not have a 'Holier than thou' attitude regarding the action shooting sports and defense crowd. I never said that all guns were created to kill - certainly not my Anshutz 1813 or my Walther P-22. But my Anshutz and ISU Smallbore can trace it's lineage back to the European indoor ranges created to instruct military recruits using sub-caliber arms at reduced cost.

And since you brought it up, the Second Ammendment IS about killing people, or having the right and the means to do it. You are correct that it is not about hunting, so when it was written that only left defense against threats foriegn or domestic - there were no shooting sports at the time. I see no need to apologize for that fact or to dress it up as something else. Accept that fact and the difference between Anti or Pro becomes who should have the power to stop those that need to be stopped - individuals or agents of the state? When you consider that the state was the concern of the authors , it becomes clear that it is an individual right to use deadly force in a lawful manner.

In my 28 years of shooting I can also pass the conservative estimated average of 5K rounds a year between training, competitions, and plinking. I also never killed anyone, but in that time my immediate family has stopped 2 burglaries/assaults using a firearm, and without firing a shot. The means were there, the skill was there. I've also had a .38 Special RNL dug out of me, so the 'it ain't gonna happen to you' argument is one I tend to disregard. If you fire 10 million rounds in your lifetime, and only fire one in self defense, guess which shot will have been the most important and receive the highest scrutiny? Better make sure you know what you are doing before firing that shot - but where are you going to practice those skills?

I'm guessing you are a resident of LI with a restricted permit. Those of us from areas that issue full carry permits carry a loaded sidearm every day. If you see me at the mall, I have a Sig 228 or a S&W 649 planted somewhere on me. I average about 100-120 hours of training a year on the use of deadly force (Instruction, not range practice). With that background and my understanding of the difficulties involved in a stress shooting, I am amazed at the majority of permit holders and LEO's that hit the range once or twice a year and practice static shooting from the bench and consider themselves trained. I feel I have an obligation to practice my marksmanship in conjunction with the other skills neccessary when employing a firearm in a defensive situation.

The ranges I referred to earlier are usually empty when someone of my ilk wants to practice, so I don't see how I'm bothering someone. Proper range management would separate the bench plinkers from the trained shooters. As an example, you could put Stevie Wonder in Bay 6 at Mitchell Field with a Class 3 Uzi and he would neither damage anything or bother anyone if they kept him facing downrange. Yet they have some of the most oppressive rules around. I don't bitch when the guy in the point next to me lights up with his .50 AE or Thompson Contender in 7mm08. Distracting - you bet, but a shooting range isn't the place to find peace and quiet.

The best Public Range I know is Masterclass in Monroe. If you demonstrate competence you can practice timed splits drawing from the holster or do a 50 round mag dump from a Thompson if you wish. If you do something wrong you get politely corrected, if you make the mistake again or ignore them, you get a permanent toss out the door. The place is owned and operated by shooters who know what you need to know, and run it under 'Big Boy Rules'.

The opposite is Blue Mountain in Westchester, where you have to sit at a bench, load one round at a time, and shoot at their bullseye target set at 100 yards. Pistol is 5rd mag limit with targets at 25 yards. You can really learn alot shooting like that...

I don't hunt, and many of my peers don't either. I respect the right to hunt, hunters sighting in at the range with guns bigger than they'll ever need with optics more powerful than they need, and using targets shaped like animals. I mean, they don't need to do it for the food...and the animals pose no threat. But I agree the right is there and they should exercise it if they choose, and support them morally and politically. Do I get the same consideration in return? No way.

It isn't about shooting as fast as you can - it's about hitting the target as fast as you can. For some of us that can be pretty fast, and the shooting community shouldn't view that as a threat or something to be ashamed of.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 9:25:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NY-EMT:
cas,

My comments were directed primarily at private clubs whose money comes in the form of yearly dues and match fees, though a financial motive might be a consideration for a public range.

To put this quote back into context,
"The shooting community and those profiting from it have become our own worst enemy - they have lost sight of the fact that guns were developed to kill things - bad people as well as animals. All of the so called 'shooting sports' have developed as ways to sharpen the skills needed to perform these functions. Pistols were not created for Bullseye, shotguns were not developed for Trap & Skeet.",
it was meant to point out that the shooting sports were created to sharpen the skills needed for killing and that today's participants in these sports should not have a 'Holier than thou' attitude regarding the action shooting sports and defense crowd. I never said that all guns were created to kill - certainly not my Anshutz 1813 or my Walther P-22. But my Anshutz and ISU Smallbore can trace it's lineage back to the European indoor ranges created to instruct military recruits using sub-caliber arms at reduced cost.

And since you brought it up, the Second Ammendment IS about killing people, or having the right and the means to do it. You are correct that it is not about hunting, so when it was written that only left defense against threats foriegn or domestic - there were no shooting sports at the time. I see no need to apologize for that fact or to dress it up as something else. Accept that fact and the difference between Anti or Pro becomes who should have the power to stop those that need to be stopped - individuals or agents of the state? When you consider that the state was the concern of the authors , it becomes clear that it is an individual right to use deadly force in a lawful manner.

In my 28 years of shooting I can also pass the conservative estimated average of 5K rounds a year between training, competitions, and plinking. I also never killed anyone, but in that time my immediate family has stopped 2 burglaries/assaults using a firearm, and without firing a shot. The means were there, the skill was there. I've also had a .38 Special RNL dug out of me, so the 'it ain't gonna happen to you' argument is one I tend to disregard. If you fire 10 million rounds in your lifetime, and only fire one in self defense, guess which shot will have been the most important and receive the highest scrutiny? Better make sure you know what you are doing before firing that shot - but where are you going to practice those skills?

I'm guessing you are a resident of LI with a restricted permit. Those of us from areas that issue full carry permits carry a loaded sidearm every day. If you see me at the mall, I have a Sig 228 or a S&W 649 planted somewhere on me. I average about 100-120 hours of training a year on the use of deadly force (Instruction, not range practice). With that background and my understanding of the difficulties involved in a stress shooting, I am amazed at the majority of permit holders and LEO's that hit the range once or twice a year and practice static shooting from the bench and consider themselves trained. I feel I have an obligation to practice my marksmanship in conjunction with the other skills neccessary when employing a firearm in a defensive situation.

The ranges I referred to earlier are usually empty when someone of my ilk wants to practice, so I don't see how I'm bothering someone. Proper range management would separate the bench plinkers from the trained shooters. As an example, you could put Stevie Wonder in Bay 6 at Mitchell Field with a Class 3 Uzi and he would neither damage anything or bother anyone if they kept him facing downrange. Yet they have some of the most oppressive rules around. I don't bitch when the guy in the point next to me lights up with his .50 AE or Thompson Contender in 7mm08. Distracting - you bet, but a shooting range isn't the place to find peace and quiet.

The best Public Range I know is Masterclass in Monroe. If you demonstrate competence you can practice timed splits drawing from the holster or do a 50 round mag dump from a Thompson if you wish. If you do something wrong you get politely corrected, if you make the mistake again or ignore them, you get a permanent toss out the door. The place is owned and operated by shooters who know what you need to know, and run it under 'Big Boy Rules'.

The opposite is Blue Mountain in Westchester, where you have to sit at a bench, load one round at a time, and shoot at their bullseye target set at 100 yards. Pistol is 5rd mag limit with targets at 25 yards. You can really learn alot shooting like that...

I don't hunt, and many of my peers don't either. I respect the right to hunt, hunters sighting in at the range with guns bigger than they'll ever need with optics more powerful than they need, and using targets shaped like animals. I mean, they don't need to do it for the food...and the animals pose no threat. But I agree the right is there and they should exercise it if they choose, and support them morally and politically. Do I get the same consideration in return? No way.

It isn't about shooting as fast as you can - it's about hitting the target as fast as you can. For some of us that can be pretty fast, and the shooting community shouldn't view that as a threat or something to be ashamed of.



Well said!

Rich V
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 12:07:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NY-EMT:

The best Public Range I know is Masterclass in Monroe. If you demonstrate competence you can practice timed splits drawing from the holster or do a 50 round mag dump from a Thompson if you wish. If you do something wrong you get politely corrected, if you make the mistake again or ignore them, you get a permanent toss out the door. The place is owned and operated by shooters who know what you need to know, and run it under 'Big Boy Rules'.




+1

I went in there one day to try out my RRA 9mm and they asked me what I was shooting. I told him a 9mm so he asks to see my pistol license. I said, I don't have one I'm shooting this. I open my case and he says, you can't shoot an AR15 in here, you'll shoot out the backstop! Hehehe...he then sees the magwell adapter and the Uzi mags and says, Oh..ok...have fun.

That same day, 3 guys from the US Treasury at West Point came in and started doing 3 rd bursts on moving targets with an MP5 and some pretty rapid shotgunning.

It's not the nicest looking place and the roof leaks when it rains but its a great place to shoot and they leave you alone.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 12:35:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NY-EMT:
The opposite is Blue Mountain in Westchester, where you have to sit at a bench, load one round at a time, and shoot at their bullseye target set at 100 yards. Pistol is 5rd mag limit with targets at 25 yards. You can really learn alot shooting like that...



You left out no full silhouette targets, no "bad guy" targets and no animal pic targets. If it was up to the County Legislature they would ban all live fire and let you just dry fire while yelling bang after each pull of the trigger.

Link Posted: 1/12/2006 3:41:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By whisky19:

Originally Posted By NY-EMT:

The best Public Range I know is Masterclass in Monroe. If you demonstrate competence you can practice timed splits drawing from the holster or do a 50 round mag dump from a Thompson if you wish. If you do something wrong you get politely corrected, if you make the mistake again or ignore them, you get a permanent toss out the door. The place is owned and operated by shooters who know what you need to know, and run it under 'Big Boy Rules'.




+1

I went in there one day to try out my RRA 9mm and they asked me what I was shooting. I told him a 9mm so he asks to see my pistol license. I said, I don't have one I'm shooting this. I open my case and he says, you can't shoot an AR15 in here, you'll shoot out the backstop! Hehehe...he then sees the magwell adapter and the Uzi mags and says, Oh..ok...have fun.

That same day, 3 guys from the US Treasury at West Point came in and started doing 3 rd bursts on moving targets with an MP5 and some pretty rapid shotgunning.

It's not the nicest looking place and the roof leaks when it rains but its a great place to shoot and they leave you alone.



what's up whisky? have you been to Blue mountain or are they still closed? How do you like the 9mm AR btw?
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 6:12:29 AM EDT
You guys may laugh at what I'm about to say, but I'm going to say it anyway.

A great way to train with rapid fire, tactical movement, shooting offhand, etc is to use an airsoft gun. While the recoil is not replicated exactly (there is some recoil on most gas pistols), I can tell you that there are some tanglible benefits:

1) You can shoot at home indoors and not bother anyone (except your wife, cuz she's a nag). This means you shoot a lot more than you would having to drive to a range.
2) The better airsoft metal reproductions function exactly like the real weapon. My USP Compact is identical to a real USP Compact in every detail...even field stripping. The gas blowback guns do have a recoil and your sight picture is changed as the weapon fires forcing you to get back on target. That's why we want to rapid fire, right? Mag release is the same. Decocking is the same.
3) It's cheaper to shoot airsoft since a bag of 5000 BBs is only $12. My USP Compact was only $105 when I bought it.
4) You can shoot everyday.
5) Firing an airsoft BB gives you impact feedback that dry firing doesn't give you. If you want to practice drawing, grip, stance, sight picture, and trigger squeeze, you are actually getting a result by firing rather than simulating a round going off with a dry fire.

95% of airsoft is 12 yr old boys paying army. I will give you that. For those who really shoot firearms, they are a fantastic training aid that beats a snap cap any day of the week.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 11:21:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JBravo223:

what's up whisky? have you been to Blue mountain or are they still closed? How do you like the 9mm AR btw?



Hi JB! How ya been?

I think Blue Mtn just re-opened last week. I'd check it out this weekend but I think they are expecting thunderstorms and high winds all weekend. The 9mm AR is great. SOmething to be said about 25rd UZI mags instead of those 10rd Beretta mags you use! LOL.

Whisky
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 12:14:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By vadge:
You guys may laugh at what I'm about to say, but I'm going to say it anyway.

A great way to train with rapid fire, tactical movement, shooting offhand, etc is to use an airsoft gun. While the recoil is not replicated exactly (there is some recoil on most gas pistols), I can tell you that there are some tanglible benefits:

1) You can shoot at home indoors and not bother anyone (except your wife, cuz she's a nag). This means you shoot a lot more than you would having to drive to a range.
2) The better airsoft metal reproductions function exactly like the real weapon. My USP Compact is identical to a real USP Compact in every detail...even field stripping. The gas blowback guns do have a recoil and your sight picture is changed as the weapon fires forcing you to get back on target. That's why we want to rapid fire, right? Mag release is the same. Decocking is the same.
3) It's cheaper to shoot airsoft since a bag of 5000 BBs is only $12. My USP Compact was only $105 when I bought it.
4) You can shoot everyday.
5) Firing an airsoft BB gives you impact feedback that dry firing doesn't give you. If you want to practice drawing, grip, stance, sight picture, and trigger squeeze, you are actually getting a result by firing rather than simulating a round going off with a dry fire.

95% of airsoft is 12 yr old boys paying army. I will give you that. For those who really shoot firearms, they are a fantastic training aid that beats a snap cap any day of the week.



vadge that is not a bad idea. I Googled airsoft and some of those gas operated pistols the gov't actually uses for training. The SIG 226 is actually licensed by them. I did not see any gas operated ARs. For $100-$150 not a bad training aid. Cheap and quiet.

Link Posted: 1/12/2006 12:38:42 PM EDT
FYI, there is a very good Airsoft dealer located in LI.

www.hotspotairsoft.com

His online store is priced very competitively.

Oh yeah, most of the better airsoft rifles (AEGs) will accept every accessory and part from your real AR such as sights, scopes, rails, stocks, grips, etc..
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 12:43:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JohnLINY:
[vadge that is not a bad idea. I Googled airsoft and some of those gas operated pistols the gov't actually uses for training. The SIG 226 is actually licensed by them. I did not see any gas operated ARs. For $100-$150 not a bad training aid. Cheap and quiet.



Only other option would be simunitions or one of those German-made paintball guns that more or less looks like an AR that places like Brigade Quartermasters were selling a few years ago. Pretty stiff pricetag for the paintball gun though, and Simunitions can be tough to acquire.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 2:19:09 PM EDT
I went to Blue Mountain with a friend and resident of Westchester Saturday. Yes, the high powered rifle range reopened, but the pistol ranges are closed indefinitely as they are being completely redone. My guess is summertime for pistol reopening.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 4:12:45 PM EDT
dudes
i here all points here. but even in rural areas, people still dont want to hear bang bang bang
all day long. and they need respect too.
its tough for the semi owners.
as for strict, ive been to military ranges and they are some of the strictist places ive ever seen.

shoot safe
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 7:10:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By whisky19:

Originally Posted By JBravo223:

what's up whisky? have you been to Blue mountain or are they still closed? How do you like the 9mm AR btw?



Hi JB! How ya been?

I think Blue Mtn just re-opened last week. I'd check it out this weekend but I think they are expecting thunderstorms and high winds all weekend. The 9mm AR is great. SOmething to be said about 25rd UZI mags instead of those 10rd Beretta mags you use! LOL.

Whisky



you have to go to high rock in ct.., that range kicks ass....

what did you end up paying for the whole setup?
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 7:18:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/12/2006 7:20:44 PM EDT by FMJshooter]

Originally Posted By vadge:
FYI, there is a very good Airsoft dealer located in LI.

www.hotspotairsoft.com

His online store is priced very competitively.

Oh yeah, most of the better airsoft rifles (AEGs) will accept every accessory and part from your real AR such as sights, scopes, rails, stocks, grips, etc..



WTF! there new store is literaly a few blocks away from me! Might have to stop down there to see what the hype is all about. Didnt even know that place existed .

ETA wonder what its like working at an airsoft store. Must be fun when theres no customers around .
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