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Posted: 11/28/2003 6:48:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/9/2003 3:27:48 PM EDT by Phoenix_III]
*edit* My first post (below) is just wrong. Skip ahead to my second post. It contains up to date laws and where I was wrong with primary (this) post.

Okay, here goes. I will explain my situation in short below

"My interpretation: There is no law (and cannot be) prohibiting myself (a 21 year old male with a permanent address in the state of New Jersey) from engaging in commerce with another state (the State of Pennsylvania). Purchasing a firearm (handgun in this case) in the commonwealth of Pennsylvania has many limits and laws that must be observed. If all of these laws are observed (including background checks, and having any permits necessary [none are], as well as any stipulations from being a non-PA resident), as well as all Federal Laws, then the State of New Jersey has no say in what I purchase in another state. However, New Jersey is justified to be concerned with what I bring within her borders. Certain items, for example a silencer, are in no way permitted into the state of NJ, and no permits are available. NJ has the right to disallow me to bring this item into the state, even though Pennsylvania has provisions to allow such a device. Understood. The question is, does NJ have any laws barring ‘all’ firearms or handguns to be brought into this state or have a requirement of registration? NJ does have a list of banned firearms that is and will be honored, but does not affect any of my purchases at this time. Do I need a ‘Permit to Purchase’ a handgun if I have already legally made the purchase, and I am just transporting my already legally acquired item to my home residence? Some of the laws I found pertinent I pasted below usually with source."

I comply with all PA laws.
"POSSESSION [Phoenix_III * note that ‘Permit to Carry’ should probably read ‘Permit to Purchase’ This is from the NRA ILA .org website.]

It is unlawful to knowingly possess any handgun, including any antique handgun, without first having obtained a Permit to Carry. It is unlawful to knowingly possess any rifle or shotgun without having first obtained a Firearms Purchaser Identification Card (FID).


Exceptions.

No Permit to Carry or FID is required:

1. To keep or carry any firearm about a person`s place of business, residence, premises, or other land owned or possessed by him; a place of business shall be deemed a fixed location.


2. To carry any firearm unloaded and contained in a closed and fastened case, gunbox, securely tied package, or locked in the trunk of the automobile in which it is being transported and the course of travel shall include only such deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances from any place of purchase to his residence or place of business, between one place of business or residence and another when moving, or between his dwelling or place of business and place where such firearms are repaired, for the purpose of repair
4. To transport any firearm, in the manner described in paragraph 2 above, while traveling:
1) a. Directly to or from any place for the purpose of hunting or fishing, provided such person has in his possession a valid hunting or fishing license.
b. Directly to or from any target range or other authorized place for the purpose of practice, match, target, trap or skeet shooting exhibitions.
c. Directly to or from any exhibition or display of firearms which is sponsored by any law enforcement agency, any gun club or gun collectors` club for the purpose of displaying the firearms to the public or to members of such organization or club, provided that not less than 30 days prior to such exhibition or display notice shall be given to the Superintendent of State Police by the sponsoring organization or club and the sponsor has complied with such reasonable safety regulations as the superintendent may promulgate.
"

Okay, in short.
I am a 21 year old college student, live in PA, permanent address in NJ.
At 19, I got my FID, and have made several rifle purchases in NJ.
At 21 (turn so December 8), I have an FFL in PA (local guy) with two handguns waiting for me (a Kel-Tec p32 and a Walther P22). I will go to him, pay my $20 each gun, and keep them in an off campus location.
According to the laws I've read, I may drive them back to my permanent address and keep them there and use them for 'target practice' as outlined above (even at local NJ ranges).

However, when talking with the chief of police (I went today to get my 'permit to purchase handgun' paperwork), he says that they need to be shipping to an FFL in NJ, and 'bought' from them, to be legal, otherwise I would be violated state and federal laws. I didn't find any state or federal laws that say that... The only permits for handguns NJ issues is Permit to Purchase (already purchased legally in PA (in a week) and they are my property, and Permit to Carry (*yeah right in NJ*). So, do I need to go through an NJ FFL?

Any suggestions and sources/experience welcome.

Ben
Link Posted: 11/28/2003 7:54:24 PM EDT
You need to be a resident in the state before you can buy a pistol, as per federal law. And depending on the state it's so many days to become one. So, I suppose while you're at college you're a 'resident' of PA. But, NJ will not allow you to just drive in your handguns. You'll need to send them to an FFL and pick them up from him when you get the proper permits from NJ. After of course becoming a 'resident' of NJ again.
Link Posted: 11/28/2003 8:04:46 PM EDT
First, according to Federal law (see atf website - www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#f2) you can purchase firearms out of state but the seller must comply with all of your home state's laws in making the transfer. I.e., you can purchase a rifle in PA if he verifies (compares) your ID card & driver's license and runs a NCICS check on you. No problem. This includes PA gunshows as long as they run the NCICS.

Second, the NJ pistol permit is not just a permit to purchase, it is a handgun registration form. Two of the four copies are sent to local and state law enforecement after the handgun has been purchased. (with all pertinent handgun info filled in) One stays with the dealer and the pink copy goes to you.

Since this registration is a unique state requirement, you need to transfer the handgun from an in-state FFL. (or, possibly have the out of state FFL process and forward all paperwork as required by NJ. Not sure about that one though)

The key is you are legally a resident of NJ. So, regardless of what state you go to, you cannot legally purchase a handgun without a NJ handgun permit. Likewise, you cannot legally purchase a long gun without possessing a valid NJ firearms ID card and DL with matching name and address. Even more, the out of state FFL cannot legally complete that sale and should know better. (assuming you're producing a NJ DL for the paperwork)
Link Posted: 11/28/2003 8:09:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BuLLet:
So, I suppose while you're at college you're a 'resident' of PA.



I would say that you might temporarily reside in PA but, that's a much different animal.

This is the ATF definition of residency:www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b12

Also, I am sure that PA (like NJ) does not grant residency to students. I.e., being a student in PA does not qualify you to get a PA driver's license.
Link Posted: 11/28/2003 9:19:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FMJunkie:
First, according to Federal law (see atf website - www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#f2) you can purchase firearms out of state but the seller must comply with all of your home state's laws in making the transfer. I.e., you can purchase a rifle in PA if he verifies (compares) your ID card & driver's license and runs a NCICS check on you. No problem. This includes PA gunshows as long as they run the NCICS.

*snip*



If you'll note he wants to know about purchasing a 'handgun', not a long gun. So, this doesn't apply as it's only for long guns. You can't buy and take possession of a pistol outside of your residing state.
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 7:04:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BuLLet:

Originally Posted By FMJunkie:
First, according to Federal law (see atf website - www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#f2) you can purchase firearms out of state but the seller must comply with all of your home state's laws in making the transfer. I.e., you can purchase a rifle in PA if he verifies (compares) your ID card & driver's license and runs a NCICS check on you. No problem. This includes PA gunshows as long as they run the NCICS.

*snip*



If you'll note he wants to know about purchasing a 'handgun', not a long gun. So, this doesn't apply as it's only for long guns. You can't buy and take possession of a pistol outside of your residing state.



You're right, I was trying to give the complete picture addressing both handguns and long guns.
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 7:53:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/7/2003 7:55:23 AM EDT by GunnyG]
Wouldn't the easiest answer be to get a PA Driver's license? He lives there roughly 9 months out of the year. While it probably wouldn't yield instate tuition rates, it would make writing checks a whole lot easier, etc.

Couldn't he then apply for a nonresident NJ permit to carry?


Link Posted: 12/7/2003 9:04:04 AM EDT
I am a PA Resident when in my college state provided I have an on campus PA address or an off campus PA address that I commute from.

I transfer residency paperless, that is, when I just drive home and stay there for any length of time. NJ has no laws for transferring firearms (that I found) that one already owns legally. Am I 'moving' back into NJ each time? Don't I technically remain a resident?

What do you guys think, given the below, from the ATF (god bless). =)

"27 CFR 178.11: MEANING OF TERMS
An out-of-State college student may establish residence in a State by residing and maintaining a home in a college dormitory or in a location off-campus during the school term.
ATF Rul. 80-21
"State of residence" is defined by regulation in 27 CFR 178.11 as the State in which an individual regularly resides or maintains a home. The regulation also provides an example of an individual who maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. The individual regularly resides in State X except for the summer months and in State Y for the summer months of the year. The regulation states that during the time the individual actually resides in State X he is a resident of State X, and during the time he actually resides in State Y he is a resident of State Y.
Applying the above example to out-of-State college students it is held, that during the time the students actually reside in a college dormitory or at an off-campus location they are considered residents of the State where the dormitory or off-campus home is located. During the time out-of-State college students actually reside in their home State they are considered residents of their home State.
[ATFB 1980-4 25]
"

yes, I do have an on-campus dorm.

I guess my question is how does a PA resident bring in firearms into NJ to 'keep on their property' or target shoot. NJ only issues the Permit to Purchase (Which does have some 'illegal' registration forms, has anyone tried to challenge that yet), and permit to carry. Does either pertain since I was a legal resident of PA at the time of purchase? Any input welcome.
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 9:15:33 AM EDT
I also believe that just moving into the state, provided I am not bringing anything in that is on the Banned List (nothing is), I am okay. I already have my FID, but I do not need that, or a Permit to Carry (listed in primary post) to keep on my property or take to the range, or to shoot on my 9 acres).

=)
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 2:43:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Phoenix_III:
I also believe that just moving into the state, provided I am not bringing anything in that is on the Banned List (nothing is), I am okay. I already have my FID, but I do not need that, or a Permit to Carry (listed in primary post) to keep on my property or take to the range, or to shoot on my 9 acres).

=)



Dude, I think you are violating a whole bunch of laws and your freedom itself depends on how fast you go to your FFL and have whatever firearm you purchase ship to my FFL so I can relieve you of this mess you find yourself in.
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 2:52:49 PM EDT
In support of becoming a PA resident:


lifted from a similar discussion in the GD at www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=217561&w=activePop

UPDATE: I consulted my copy of NAPPEN II: NEW JERSEY GUN, KNIFE & WEAPON LAW, specifically the section on MOVING TO NEW JERSEY WITH GUNS on pages 301-302. I was wrong, you do NOT need an ID or permits to bring your guns with you. You *will* need these things if you ever want to buy any more guns, though, even private transfers. Nappen does recommend getting the ID card, even though it's not needed, to help protect you from our overzealous overlords.


Link Posted: 12/7/2003 3:13:25 PM EDT
Thank you Gunny.

Yes, FID is a VERY good idea. Been reading a lot of posts (especially at Packing.org). A lot of LE believes FID required, but good to have in case to make them happy vs being arrested then PROVING you don't need it.

Also, definitely need to have PROOF that I was a resident of PA (or any other state) when buying in that state.

Bear, can you cite some laws for me that lead you to such a conclusion? I assume you are just trying to play it safe. I just want to play it legal. I do not intend to ever have any altercations with the police, but if I do, after reading PA, NJ, Federal, and the ATF law, it seems everything will be dandy. Again, just need to follow the banned gun list... and FID highly recommended (not required per NJ law), but I already have one.
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 3:30:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GunnyG:
In support of becoming a PA resident:


lifted from a similar discussion in the GD at www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=217561&w=activePop

UPDATE: I consulted my copy of NAPPEN II: NEW JERSEY GUN, KNIFE & WEAPON LAW, specifically the section on MOVING TO NEW JERSEY WITH GUNS on pages 301-302. I was wrong, you do NOT need an ID or permits to bring your guns with you. You *will* need these things if you ever want to buy any more guns, though, even private transfers. Nappen does recommend getting the ID card, even though it's not needed, to help protect you from our overzealous overlords.





Hmmm... I was just about to say somethin like that...
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 3:36:32 PM EDT
[humbled]BTW, Jetlag is due credit for that citation[/humbled]
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 3:44:15 AM EDT
Fellas,
It is a relatively simple matter to bring firearms into the state when moving here. As the resident of another state, moving to NJ, all you have to do is contact your local law enforcement department, ask to speak with the officer in charge of the firearm permit applications, and explain that you are re-locating into the state and you have some legally acquired pistols that you wish to register. You will be required to bring the pistols in for inspection of the S/N, paperwork will be filled out and you will be good to go.

All of this should be set up in advance, of course. I realize that this ammounts to firearm registration, and I do not agree with it, however, this is what must be done in order to own a pistol legally in nj

I have gone through this process several times and in my locality it is painless.

hth

ka
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 4:50:13 AM EDT
KP. Your method is overly cautious (which is good). However, I can neither afford to (shipping, FFL fees, twice, permit to purchase, probably being 'reprinted' even though I have FID, et al) nor want to freely register my handguns when I do not have to! . Only registration happens when buying new or used, IN NJ.

Stay safe,

Ben
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 9:49:37 AM EDT
Dude,

Happy Birthday

Mike
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 10:47:25 AM EDT
I wish. Issuing athority is being a PITA, saying well if I am a PA resident for more than thirty days, my NJ drivers license is expired, etc. They said get a government issued photo ID that has the PA address on it. So I am on the phone with PENNDOT (Pennsylvania Department of Transportation) to get me'z a photo ID with my student address on it.

=)... Will... Beat...The...System... or rather, get it to comply. =)
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 12:44:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Phoenix_III:
KP. Your method is overly cautious (which is good). However, I can neither afford to (shipping, FFL fees, twice, permit to purchase, probably being 'reprinted' even though I have FID, et al) nor want to freely register my handguns when I do not have to! . Only registration happens when buying new or used, IN NJ.

Stay safe,

Ben



WRONG...WRONG...WRONG
If you get caught WITH a pistol, WITHOUT a pistol purchase permit in NJ you will LOSE the pistol. Plain and simple. WHile I hate the idea of registration, if you want to own and shoot a pistol in NJ, that is the LAW. I am sure no one on this board would advocate ever circumventing the law. Point is...if you read the law, all pistols must be registered. No paperwork, no pistol.

Stay safe, stay legal, stay out of the papers.

ka
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 1:22:59 PM EDT
kingairpilot, my book disagrees with you.


NAPPEN II: NEW JERSEY GUN, KNIFE & WEAPON LAW page 337

Under N.J.S. 2C:58-2, registration is required when a handgun is acquired in New Jersey other than by inheritance. Registration is not required for mere possession.



If you can find a statute that says you need a purchasing permit or even the ID to simply possess a pistol, a lot of us would sure like to see it.
www.njleg.state.nj.us/
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 1:39:47 PM EDT
Right. You need all the documentation that says you legally acquired it where you were, when you did.

Moving into the state though, you should have all that documentation, otherwise you will lose the pistol until you can prove otherwise.

However, I'm getting dicked around today folks. FFL issuing authority (or whomever) says I need a PA ID if I am a resident, so now I have to get a PA ID... that requires me to provide ORIGINAL Birth Cert, SS Card, and any two of the following
* Current Utility bills (water, gas, electric, cable, etc)
* Tax records
* Lease agreements
* Mortgage documents
* W-2 Form
* Current weapons permit
the lady there told me verbally that Junk Mail would also count.

Being a student, living in a dorm, I have NONE of the above (getting Birth Cert and SS (originals) overnight mailed to me from home), so I will use my 'verification of student' paperwork I got from my school (stamped and with seal) that has my address and everything as one form, and HOPEFULLY I have some junkmail in the mailbox I never check... Isn't that sad? I HOPE to have junk mail....

Can anyone think of something else that might qualify, as junk mail does? I think a simple letter from another party to me at that address doesn't count.
Link Posted: 12/9/2003 8:35:09 AM EDT
You're fucked!

Without having a PA drivers license how did you think you able to purchase two handguns and take possession in PA? Sure an out of state resident can buy a handgun, must it must be shipped to a FFL. That dealer really fucked up!

When you purchased these handguns from the dealer, you intentionally misrepresented yourself as a PA resident. Now as you are trying to take possesion of these firearms, you running into a load of shit. Serves you right.

Just because you don't want the handguns registered in New Jersey, you break laws. Your actions are those of an individual who is not responsible enough to possess a handgun.

And the last thing you should be doing is trying to interpret state law.......
Link Posted: 12/9/2003 8:43:38 AM EDT
223Rem... I see no reason for you to be 'angry' or swearing at the situation.

However, I'm not f~ed, as I will have my PennDOT issued ID (government ID) by Saturday (having my original birth certificate and Social Security card sent from their secure locations overnight). I just need two things tieing me to my address at school (IE bills, and a license agreement, both of which I can get from my registrar's office). I am not misrepresenting myself, I AM A PA RESIDENT! Did you not read the whole thread? I know it is getting long, but before making such accussations, say you haven't read the whole thread, or at least the part which declares me a PA resident.

=P
Link Posted: 12/9/2003 10:51:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Jetlag:
kingairpilot, my book disagrees with you.


NAPPEN II: NEW JERSEY GUN, KNIFE & WEAPON LAW page 337

Under N.J.S. 2C:58-2, registration is required when a handgun is acquired in New Jersey other than by inheritance. Registration is not required for mere possession.



If you can find a statute that says you need a purchasing permit or even the ID to simply possess a pistol, a lot of us would sure like to see it.
www.njleg.state.nj.us/


This is what I am going with. After a long search of the NJ Criminal Code and the associated info, I could not find anything re: Moving into the state with weapons. Long Guns require the FID as that is a permit to possess and transport as well as buy.

Any RKI feel free to jump in.

ka
b.Handguns. Any person who knowingly has in his possession any handgun, including any antique handgun without first having obtained a permit to carry the same as provided in N.J.S.2C:58-4, is guilty of a crime of the third degree.


c.Rifles and shotguns. (1) Any person who knowingly has in his possession any rifle or shotgun without having first obtained a firearms purchaser identification card in accordance with the provisions of N.J.S.2C:58-3, is guilty of a crime of the third degree.
Link Posted: 12/9/2003 11:03:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By kingairpilot:

Originally Posted By Jetlag:
kingairpilot, my book disagrees with you.


NAPPEN II: NEW JERSEY GUN, KNIFE & WEAPON LAW page 337

Under N.J.S. 2C:58-2, registration is required when a handgun is acquired in New Jersey other than by inheritance. Registration is not required for mere possession.



If you can find a statute that says you need a purchasing permit or even the ID to simply possess a pistol, a lot of us would sure like to see it.
www.njleg.state.nj.us/


This is what I am going with. After a long search of the NJ Criminal Code and the associated info, I could not find anything re: Moving into the state with weapons. Long Guns require the FID as that is a permit to possess and transport as well as buy.

Any RKI feel free to jump in.

ka
b.Handguns. Any person who knowingly has in his possession any handgun, including any antique handgun without first having obtained a permit to carry the same as provided in N.J.S.2C:58-4, is guilty of a crime of the third degree.


c.Rifles and shotguns. (1) Any person who knowingly has in his possession any rifle or shotgun without having first obtained a firearms purchaser identification card in accordance with the provisions of N.J.S.2C:58-3, is guilty of a crime of the third degree.



And here is part of the "Exemptions" section:


f.Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent:

(1)A member of any rifle or pistol club organized in accordance with the rules prescribed by the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice, in going to or from a place of target practice, carrying such firearms as are necessary for said target practice, provided that the club has filed a copy of its charter with the superintendent and annually submits a list of its members to the superintendent and provided further that the firearms are carried in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section;

(2)A person carrying a firearm or knife in the woods or fields or upon the waters of this State for the purpose of hunting, target practice or fishing, provided that the firearm or knife is legal and appropriate for hunting or fishing purposes in this State and he has in his possession a valid hunting license, or, with respect to fresh water fishing, a valid fishing license;

(3)A person transporting any firearm or knife while traveling:

(a)Directly to or from any place for the purpose of hunting or fishing, provided the person has in his possession a valid hunting or fishing license; or

(b)Directly to or from any target range, or other authorized place for the purpose of practice, match, target, trap or skeet shooting exhibitions, provided in all cases that during the course of the travel all firearms are carried in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section and the person has complied with all the provisions and requirements of Title 23 of the Revised Statutes and any amendments thereto and all rules and regulations promulgated thereunder; or

(c)In the case of a firearm, directly to or from any exhibition or display of firearms which is sponsored by any law enforcement agency, any rifle or pistol club, or any firearms collectors club, for the purpose of displaying the firearms to the public or to the members of the organization or club, provided, however, that not less than 30 days prior to the exhibition or display, notice of the exhibition or display shall be given to the Superintendent of the State Police by the sponsoring organization or club, and the sponsor has complied with such reasonable safety regulations as the superintendent may promulgate. Any firearms transported pursuant to this section shall be transported in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section;

(4)A person from keeping or carrying about a private or commercial aircraft or any boat, or from transporting to or from such vessel for the purpose of installation or repair a visual distress signalling device approved by the United States Coast Guard.

g.All weapons being transported under paragraph (2) of subsection b., subsection e., or paragraph (1) or (3) of subsection f. of this section shall be carried unloaded and contained in a closed and fastened case, gunbox, securely tied package, or locked in the trunk of the automobile in which it is being transported, and in the course of travel shall include only such deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances.

Link Posted: 12/9/2003 11:13:25 AM EDT
Ok,

Ask yourself these few questions.

What is the issuing state of my current drivers license? If it's NJ, am I going to surrender it?

For the year 2003 (and 2002 for that matter) in which state will my taxes be filed?

Which state is my vehicle registered under?

Do my parents still claim me as a dependent and which state do they reside in?

What state does my car insurance company have me as being a resident of?

Did I purchase these handguns before or after I applied for residency in PA?

Having a PennDot Gov issued ID does not mean dick. Most bars won't even accept them as a valid form of ID. I can not believe a gun dealer would even consider it. Maybe there should be stricter guns laws after all. I can see a politician point easily now. Let Mohammad or Mustaffa live in PA and get some BS PennDot ID, buy all the handguns and rifles they want. Gee that makes me feel really safe.
Link Posted: 12/9/2003 11:58:54 AM EDT
It's what the FFL got when he CALLED IN to ask what the law is... ATF says I am resident of the state I reside in, BEING A COLLEGE student.

Kingairpilot, be careful

the "b.Handguns. Any person who knowingly has in his possession any handgun, including any antique handgun without first having obtained a permit to carry the same as provided in N.J.S.2C:58-4, is guilty of a crime of the third degree." is if you are carrying the gun on your person, not having in your house. Possession, not ownership. I know, they should use better terms for 'carrying' and 'owning'. =
Doesn't matter about insurance or any of that, it's a paperless transfer each time.
Link Posted: 12/9/2003 2:56:16 PM EDT
Did you ask yourself any of those questions? Because those are the same questions NJ State Troopers are going to ask you when you furnish handguns in New Jersey that were purchased out of state, that were not transferred to NJ FFL holder and then relinquish to you as a NJ resident. If you have any claim of being a NJ state resident, it's law govern your actions.

Another questions for you:

If you can buy a handgun in PA, although being a NJ resident, why not buy a Pre-ban AR15 in PA since they are legal to own and bring it to NJ to shoot? Ownership of Pre-bans in NJ is illegal (LEO Excluded), but since you reside in PA, you should be able to bring it here and shoot it right?

Regardless what the ATF said, they do not have the final word. State and local legislation supercedes federal laws.

You are just trying to skirt the law.

Link Posted: 12/9/2003 3:18:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 223Rem:
Ok,

Ask yourself these few questions.

What is the issuing state of my current drivers license? If it's NJ, am I going to surrender it?

For the year 2003 (and 2002 for that matter) in which state will my taxes be filed?

Which state is my vehicle registered under?

Do my parents still claim me as a dependent and which state do they reside in?

What state does my car insurance company have me as being a resident of?

Did I purchase these handguns before or after I applied for residency in PA?

....



My only concern is having to surrender my NJ drivers license. However, my residency transfer is not like a standard one. This is strictly a time based thing, as in when I am in college. If the Bureau of Alcohol, Tabacco, and Firearms says
"27 CFR 178.11: MEANING OF TERMS
An out-of-State college student may establish residence in a State by residing and maintaining a home in a college dormitory or in a location off-campus during the school term."
Then I am a resident of PA during this term. If the authority the FFL called says I need a PA ID to do the check, then I will get a PA ID. Where do I file my taxes? NJ (hell, my parents still have our accountant do that), Car registered? NJ, where I will drive it December and May through August while I am at home working. NJ law says I need nothing to bring in a handgun I legally purchased in another state (being a resident of that state, and now a NJ resident). So now I must follow the PA law, which wants me to prove my residency at school, and which I shall. I should not have to surrender my drivers license (which will not even come to play as ID for me, I will let my Birth Certificate and school ID (and social security card) take care of that.

If they give me a lot of guff about the whole thing, then all I have to do is pay the FFL where the firearms are at, have him ship them to an FFL in Utah (where my father lives, parents divorced), he buys from that FFL, and then gives to me, paperless, per NJ law (direct family). But that would cost ~100 bucks... and I could use another ID that says I'm me, and being government issued.

223Rem, I do appreciate you trying to punch holes and asking great questions/trying to bring up things to consider. All I hope is that we can continue without saying "I'm f~ed" or "PA ID doesn;t mean dick" (when of course authorizing agency wanted that or PA drivers license for id).

Take care all.
Link Posted: 12/9/2003 4:22:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Phoenix_III:
It's what the FFL got when he CALLED IN to ask what the law is... ATF says I am resident of the state I reside in, BEING A COLLEGE student.

Kingairpilot, be careful

the "b.Handguns. Any person who knowingly has in his possession any handgun, including any antique handgun without first having obtained a permit to carry the same as provided in N.J.S.2C:58-4, is guilty of a crime of the third degree." is if you are carrying the gun on your person, not having in your house. Possession, not ownership. I know, they should use better terms for 'carrying' and 'owning'. =
Doesn't matter about insurance or any of that, it's a paperless transfer each time.



I submit that we are arguing Apples and Oranges on the ATF issue. ATF can say whatever they want. The issue is what the A/G on New Jersey says. You will notice that none of the exemptions that you cite talks about entering the state with a pistol.
You are not:
A: Going to or from a range
B: Carrying the weapon in a field
C: Traveling through the state (to another state ie: interstate travel)
D: THat range thing again
E: Going to an exhibition
F: Going to a private aircraft or boat.

All of these exemptions deal with what you may do with it once it is in the state.

nother thing to consider, as someone else stated is what is the cop going to say when you explain all of this to him. If there is even the hint of impropriety, you will find yourself in court fighting to get your guns back.
As for the plan to get your father in Utah to but it, you still have the same problem. And I think that even the atf considers this a "Straw Buy" and frowns upon same.

Keep in mind, I'm an airline pilot, not a lawyer or cop but I think you are going through too much hassle for not much reward.

ka
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:39:40 AM EDT
I believe that Phoenix_III is correct in stating that he is a resident of PA when attending college, as per "27 CFR 178.11: MEANING OF TERMS” – “ATF Rul. 80-21”:
• An out-of-State college student may establish residence in a State by residing and maintaining a home in a college dormitory or in a location off-campus during the school term.
• "State of residence" is defined by regulation in 27 CFR 178.11 as the State in which an individual regularly resides or maintains a home. The regulation also provides an example of an individual who maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. The individual regularly resides in State X except for the summer months and in State Y for the summer months of the year. The regulation states that during the time the individual actually resides in State X he is a resident of State X, and during the time he actually resides in State Y he is a resident of State Y.
• Applying the above example to out-of-State college students it is held, that during the time the students actually reside in a college dormitory or at an off-campus location they are considered residents of the State where the dormitory or off-campus home is located. During the time out-of-State college students actually reside in their home State they are considered residents of their home State.


Jetlag was close. One may purchase handguns in PA and transport them into NJ under the exemption statute “N.J.S. 2C:39-6e”:
• Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S. 2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent a person keeping or carrying about his place of business, residence, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, any firearm, or from carrying the same, in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section, from any place of purchase to his residence or place of business, between his dwelling and his place of business, between one place of business or residence and another when moving, or between his dwelling or place of business and place where such firearms are repaired, for the purpose of repair. For the purposes of this section, a place of business shall be deemed to be a fixed location.

Of course transporting them is discussed under “N.J.S. 2C:39-6g”:
• All weapons being transported under paragraph (2) of subsection b., subsection e., or paragraph (1) or (3) of subsection f. of this section shall be carried unloaded and contained in a closed and fastened case, gunbox, securely tied package, or locked in the trunk of the automobile in which it is being transported, and in the course of travel shall include only such deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances.

223Rem, if the Government issues Phoenix_III a photo identification card based on what he has provided to them, he may legally purchase handguns in PA. Also, one cannot bring a Pre-ban AR-15 into NJ. Possession is illegal in NJ even though ownership is legal in PA. See “N.J.S. 2C:39-5f”:
• Any person who knowingly has in his possession an assault firearm is guilty of a crime of the third degree except if the assault firearm is licensed pursuant to N.J.S. 2C:58-5 blah,blah,blah”

Phoenix_III, rather than go the Utah route, have the FFL ship them to a dealer in NJ to do the transfer. But why spend the extra bucks for that, you’re a PA resident when at college. No need to reregister them or obtain a “Permit to Purchase”. Just keep your sales receipts as proof of the purchase.

Kingairpilot, a purchase by someone as a legitimate gift for a third party is legal and not considered a “Straw Purchase”. His father would still answer, yes, to question 12a on Form 4473, and then give the firearm to Phoenix_III. However, since it has been mentioned by him that he has or will be purchasing the handguns for himself, I do not feel that this route should be taken.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 9:23:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2003 9:37:20 AM EDT by 223Rem]
PK90

No shit pre-bans are illegal in NJ, but not in PA and Ben is claiming residency in PA, hence he should be able to own a pre-ban AR purchased in PA as a PA resident and be allowed to shoot it in NJ. NJ law does not dictate what a PA resident can own and possess. NJ laws state that Pre-ban AR's are illegal for NJ residents can own, but since Ben is a PA resident, he should be able to possess such a weapon in NJ because the weapon was purchased legally by a PA resident in PA who happens to be using the pre-ban AR in NJ.

It's all BULLSHIT!

He needs to call the NJ State Police and ask if what he is doing is legal, because he has not surrendered his NJ residency.

Ben please call this number 609-882-2000 and ask for Lt. Jadlon or ext. 5230 at the firearms division. Just spoke with him and you are BREAKING THE LAW! Don't fuck yourself.....

Link Posted: 12/11/2003 9:58:56 AM EDT
Breaking the law if I brought a Pre-ban AR or SILENCER or anything else that is banned in NJ, into NJ.


I am a PA resident while in PA. When I cross the border, I become an NJ resident again, which does not permit me to bring into the state anything banned.

Keeping the above in mind, PK90 did an excellent job summing things up. and I do believe that if/when PA issues me a photo ID, after I have met their burden of proof that I do in fact reside in this state, that both the ATF and PA requirements are met, and I purchase the handguns as a citizen of PA. However, when I go home for breaks or what have you, I am an NJ resident. I wonder if it is considered dual residency, or something of the sort.

Reading more regulation, some one may claim dual residency if they maintain a home in both states. Owning property in the other state does not qualify, they must spend excess of 90 days (met that) there, and maintain a home or dwelling. Anyone have anything more official than the FAQ I read on atf.gov?

As for calling and asking, I believe that would require painstakingly explaining the situation to another party, have them burden themselves and grudgingly try to verify everything, and most likeyl 'giving up' on my behalf at the first sign of difficulty. I am meeting all State and Federal laws. If you do not agree, please state which law is being violated? I am not misrepresenting myself in any way. But honestly, I do appreciate your input.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 10:01:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 223Rem:
...Ownership of Pre-bans in NJ is illegal (LEO Excluded), but since you reside in PA, you should be able to bring it here and shoot it right?



Did the Lt. tell you this also? Isn't the mere possession of an AW in NJ illegal, no matter the state in which you reside? Unless you happen to be passing through, per Federal and State Law.


Originally Posted By 223Rem:
...NJ laws state that Pre-ban AR's are illegal for NJ residents can own...



Wrong. NJ law states that possession of Pre-Ban ARs are illegal in the State of NJ. This applies to everyone. A NJ resident may purchase said firearm and the like, out-of-state and keep it out of NJ. He owns it legally, as long as it stays out of NJ. The laws are written for anyone who happens to be in NJ, not just for residents.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 11:00:36 AM EDT
First, residency is not as easily claimed as just crossing the border to another state.
If that is the case, I have been a resident in 49 out of the 50 states in this union.

Secondly,


From MK90
Wrong. NJ law states that possession of Pre-Ban ARs are illegal in the State of NJ. This applies to everyone. A NJ resident may purchase said firearm and the like, out-of-state and keep it out of NJ. He owns it legally, as long as it stays out of NJ. The laws are written for anyone who happens to be in NJ, not just for residents.



How do you know it applies to everyone, did you write the law, do you interpret the law for the courts. Where does it say everyone? Please make reference to that.

MK90 did you call the number? Go ahead, please anyone call the number. You will get the definitive answer. What Ben is trying to do is illegal, not from what I think ,but from a Lt. in the NJ State Police who specializes in Firearms Laws and Jurisdiction told me.

I do not want to see anyone get in trouble.

And yes I have seen some LEO in NJ have pre-ban features on their ARs.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 11:47:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 223Rem:
First, residency is not as easily claimed as just crossing the border to another state.
If that is the case, I have been a resident in 49 out of the 50 states in this union.

Secondly,


From MK90
Wrong. NJ law states that possession of Pre-Ban ARs are illegal in the State of NJ. This applies to everyone. A NJ resident may purchase said firearm and the like, out-of-state and keep it out of NJ. He owns it legally, as long as it stays out of NJ. The laws are written for anyone who happens to be in NJ, not just for residents.



How do you know it applies to everyone, did you write the law, do you interpret the law for the courts. Where does it say everyone? Please make reference to that.

MK90 did you call the number? Go ahead, please anyone call the number. You will get the definitive answer. What Ben is trying to do is illegal, not from what I think ,but from a Lt. in the NJ State Police who specializes in Firearms Laws and Jurisdiction told me.

I do not want to see anyone get in trouble.

And yes I have seen some LEO in NJ have pre-ban features on their ARs.




First of all, I'm PK90.

Secondly, Phoenix_III is a resident of PA based on his collegiate status. He didn't just walk into the state of PA. He lives there. The BATFE has addressed this.

Third, while in NJ, NJ laws apply to everyone. Why do the laws only apply to NJ residents? Are Pennsylvanians allowed to bring over registered machineguns? Is a 16 year old Arizonian Driver allowed to drive a NJ registered auto? Is an Englishman allowed to drive on the opposite side of the road in NJ? The answer is obviously, NO. No reference needed, only an education. This should be common sense.

Fourth, no need to call. I'm sure that your questions were skewed to your answers. I am on a professional par with the firearms unit and do know the law, perhaps better than the answers that you received. You would be better off calling Evan Nappen.

Fifth, the only LEOs with Pre-Bans should be Department approved for official use only. There are currently two officers, during the entire 13+ years of the Florio established ban, who have been charged with possessing an Assault Weapon. These cases are going to be heard after the first of the year.


I also do not wish anyone to get in trouble. They should CYA at all times. I am on the same page as you in regards to the idiotic laws written to preclude any lawful ownership of firearms. I do not wish to highjack Ben's thread and get off topic discussing these matters. The crux of the discussion is whether he can legally purchase a handgun in PA and bring it into NJ. I still say he can, as the law is written and quoted.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 12:34:26 PM EDT
My bad on the MK90 thing, but yeah machine guns are legal in the state of New Jersey, you just need to get licensed for them. So, yes a PA resident with a registered machinegun can bring it in to new Jersy as per Chapter 58 2C 58-5 because they are not a banned firearm. That's how the law reads.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/statelaws/22ndedition/njersey.pdf

NJ law requires your car to have a front and back license plate, then why do I see cars from states from all over the USA with only one license plate. It's NJ law.......

And yes these LEO ARs are for departmental use. My club offers our ranges to all LE department in NJ. We have departments from many of the surrounding states come here. LE sniper training and qualification occurs at my club. Hell the National Guard and Air National Guard use our club (don't they drop bombs)

The BAFTE my have addressed his residency status, but the State of New Jersey has NOT! The BAFTE does not have the final say in this matter. They are federal laws, not state, and if the state imposes stricter legislation, they supercede federal law.

Are you a laywer? If you aren't, then I would not make a claim to be as well versed as a Lt. who all day long deals with firearm legality issues.

And I resent the fact that you claim that my questions to the LT. were skewed in any way to give the answers I wanted. On your own admission of having no desire to call for yourself, tells me that you are aware that you are WRONG!

CALL it's as simple as that. Any member here call, I don't care. You will be told the same thing.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 1:22:01 PM EDT
Fellas, fellas

Lets calm down a bit.

First, YES...a 16 yr old from ANY state that has a license can drive a car in this state reguardless of where the car is registered. (assuming he has the car legally) Second, I do not know why Phoenix won't call the NJSP. That is what the number is there for. Heck, call from a pay phone if you are the paranoid type. Third, the opinions of all on this board (myself included) are worth EXACTLY what they cost...NOTHING. None of us are constitutional lawyers...legislators...or rulemakers (I think). This is NOT the place for a definitive answer...it is a discussion board. I suggest that for a legal opinion a lawyer or law enforcement guy might be the one to ask. Finally, when debating an issue that could lead to arrest, firearm forefiture, and having Bubba for a roommate, I would go with the most conservative route that I could find.

thanks,
KA
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 1:31:50 PM EDT
Here we go again.

Yes, machineguns are legal in NJ, per the law, which states that one must first apply via the superior court. Yeh, right!! Has anyone gotten approval? I'm talking Joe Citizen here. One can not just bring a MG into NJ. Perhaps I should have said a SBR instead. Which would be legal in PA, but not in NJ.

NJ requires NJ titled autos to have two plates. Title 39, section 3 addresses out-of-state priviledges. Not relative.

No I'm not a lawyer, nor hope to be one. But I wouldn't take one person's answer, to a perhaps overlooked loophole, as being gospel.

When I said skewed, I meant that the questions that were posed were perhaps unintentionally phrased that would result in an answer that was not relative to the discussion. Many polls are taken that convey skewed answers, intentional or accidental.


223Rem wrote.....
The BAFTE my have addressed his residency status, but the State of New Jersey has NOT! The BAFTE does not have the final say in this matter. They are federal laws, not state, and if the state imposes stricter legislation, they supercede federal law.



Exactly, no NJ state law has addressed this issue, and I know of no current bill to do so.


kingairpilot wrote...
First, YES...a 16 yr old from ANY state that has a license can drive a car in this state reguardless of where the car is registered.....None of us are constitutional lawyers...legislators...or rulemakers (I think).



I have to respond, WRONG. One must be 17 to drive a NJ registered auto in NJ. NJS 39:3-17
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 2:09:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2003 2:17:09 PM EDT by 223Rem]
PK90, come on "loophole". Hey if Ben wants to be the guineapig to test this loophole let him, by all means, it's his guns and his rights. But in anyway supporting or condoning someone's actions that are in the least bit criminal or possibly criminal(especially with firearms, we are all ready under attack)is wrong.

What about out of state privileges for firearms? Is there any definite proof that this does not exist?

We do not practice the law, we do not write the law and we certainly do not interpret the law. If it was that easy to legally acquire a handgun in PA even though your are a NJ resident, don't you think more people would have done it all ready. If I thought it was legal I would get a PennDOT ID (cause that's all you need supposedly) and list my Aunt's address as my PA address, since I reside with her when visiting and working.

In this thread someone posted the best advice as to err towards the side of safety and Ben is not doing that at all, he is taking a calculated risk.

Gave Ben the number that he needs to call, and yes they are the final decision makers on whether or not what Ben plans on doing is legal, until a NJ court has made a ruling. I for one do not want to be that person and will not be that person the courts will have a chance to make a precedence.

Hmm.....save a hundred dollars of FFL fees and pistols permits or save possibly thousands on laywer fees, court costs, fines and time in jail?
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 2:18:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2003 2:29:11 PM EDT by PK90]
223Rem,
Finally, we agree on these things. Or shall I say we have a Mexican Stand-Off. I've ran out of ideas and am exhausted now. Good sparring with you.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 6:48:50 AM EDT
.223Rem, working/staying/visiting at Aunt's won't count, as

1) to establish a residency (when not a college student), the minimum per year *I think* is 90 days (that I read). It was 90 or 30, so I stay safe and go 90.

Being a college student, the atf rul I read didn't say, but I do meet both the 30 and 90 (All of Sept, Oct, Nov = 90, and I'm here from End August to mid December).

The way I see it

1) Legally purchased in PA? *Check* (Legal PA resident, filled out forms, meet all reqs)
2) Legally bring back into NJ? *check* (Nappen II dictates that no registration/forms required to bring legally owned guns into the state)
3) Legally keep/use on property or at a range *check* (I fortunately live in a place where I may shoot on my own property. and NJ law clearly says I may keep in my possession firearms legally owned by me (see #1) and bring them to a range as well

Link Posted: 12/13/2003 9:25:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2003 9:27:47 AM EDT by 223Rem]
....and you have yet called State Police. Are you afraid to? If what you are doing is legal, why not verify it with the State Police. It's a cheap phone call for an added peace of mind.

I do spend a total of 90 days a years in PA, so by what you are saying, all I need a some junk mail at my Aunt's house, SS Card, Birth Cert and I'm golden. No thanks.
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 12:08:45 PM EDT
Are you a college student? No. Then this residence doesn't apply, you'd have to apply for dual residency. Do you maintain a home or dwelling (receipts/payments for, utility, etc). No, but again, don't meet the unique requirement (actually, re-read atf reg, I don't think you need to be college student), but you do have to meet their requirement.

I haven't called because I do not feel like explaining a million different things. New edition of Nappen coming out in 5 weeks, and I am happy with a) reading the laws for NJ, PA, and Federal myself, and have other members read/share experiences/find flaws with logic/interpretation, and then going through PA system and having them... oh... what... ISSUE ME MY PA ID TODAY . I'm happy. =) Anyway... I'm not pushing any 'loopholes' and neither is anything PK90 wrote, IIRC.

Ciao. Should be legit and good to go for Monday with FFL.
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 1:06:23 PM EDT
Phoenix_III,
If for some unknown and illogical reason you can't purchase a handgun in person in PA, I'll transfer it to you in NJ for free. Shoot me an email.
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 1:15:38 PM EDT
You my friend, are a good man, and in fact, at such a generous offer, I would glady pay you more than you normally would charge (if I were in a financial position to do so). If I do need to transfer, I will go through yourself and pay what I can. I do appreciate you offering your services.

=)
Link Posted: 12/15/2003 12:01:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Phoenix_III:
You my friend, are a good man, and in fact, at such a generous offer, I would glady pay you more than you normally would charge (if I were in a financial position to do so). If I do need to transfer, I will go through yourself and pay what I can. I do appreciate you offering your services.

=)




However, it won't be necessary. I picked up my Walther P22 and Kel-Tec p32 sans issue. FFL called up the regular number (State Police) and it went through the automated system via my PA ID just fine. Some cash and handshake and a smile. =).

Only law I am concerned with (as per ATF I am a resident of the State of PA, PA confirmed it by issuing me a PA ID (brought in documents from school stating my address where I live), and now all I am concerned with is bringing my legally acquired property back into NJ, which Nappen II says is fine.
Link Posted: 12/15/2003 12:05:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Phoenix_III:



WooHoo!
Link Posted: 12/15/2003 12:40:44 PM EDT
Congratulations Phoenix_III.
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