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Posted: 9/16/2003 8:14:11 AM EDT
found this when trying to find an official answer for the transportation thread

caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/nycodes/c82/a68.html


S 265.02 Criminal possession of a weapon in the third degree.
A person is guilty of criminal possession of a weapon in the third
degree when:
.
.
.
(5) (i) Such person possesses twenty or more firearms;
.
.
.
Criminal possession of a weapon in the third degree is a class D
felony.

Link Posted: 9/16/2003 8:24:52 AM EDT
Where're our resident attornies? Aimless? Shaggy?

WHat do the experts have to say about this?
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 8:33:28 AM EDT
You need to read the entire section as a whole:

A person is guilty of criminal possession of a weapon in the third
degree when:
(1) He commits the crime of criminal possession of a weapon in the
fourth degree as defined in subdivision one, two, three or five of
section 265.01, and has been previously convicted of any crime; or


So you have to meet the conditions applicable to item (1) before item 5, that you cite, would be applicable.

Disclaimer: I am neither a trained attorney nor do I play one on TV.

Link Posted: 9/16/2003 9:06:33 AM EDT
I thought the "or" at the end of each one meant that any of the numbered items would count

But I am also not a lawyer, which is why I put the ? at the end of the title
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 9:10:57 AM EDT
Never saw this before.

Well, I've got a loophole:

"Those 20 are mine, those 20 are my wifes and those last 20 are my daugthers."

60 - Hmmm, chances are I'd fear my wife more than the courts if I ever bought that many.
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 9:16:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/16/2003 9:17:14 AM EDT by Aimless]
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 12:13:22 PM EDT
In any reading of S 265 of the penal code ("FIREARMS AND OTHER DANGEROUS WEAPONS"), you need to be cognizant of the definition of "firearm":


S 265.00 Definitions.
As used in this article and in article four hundred, the following terms shall mean and include:
...
3. "Firearm" means (a) any pistol or revolver; or (b) a shotgun having one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length; or (c) a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length; or (d) any weapon made from a shotgun or rifle whether by alteration, modifica- tion, or otherwise if such weapon as altered, modified, or otherwise has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches; or (e) an assault weapon. For the purpose of this subdivision the length of the barrel on a shotgun or rifle shall be determined by measuring the distance between the muzzle and the face of the bolt, breech, or breechlock when closed and when the shotgun or rifle is cocked; the overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center line of the bore. Firearm does not include an antique firearm.



The restriction on more than twenty firearms may have been intended to apply to all rifles, shotguns, and handguns, but the way the law is written, it only restricts handguns. So if you have more than twenty handguns, you have committed a New York felony.
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 12:59:38 PM EDT

The restriction on more than twenty firearms may have been intended to apply to all rifles, shotguns, and handguns, but the way the law is written, it only restricts handguns. So if you have more than twenty handguns, you have committed a New York felony.



That's clearly untrue. In order for this section of the law to apply you must first meet the conditions stated in Section 1. Diagram the sentence for yourself; you have to have already committed a qualifying offense. Then if you own more than 20 firearms, they pile this one on.

Where's Shaggy when you need him?
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 3:36:13 PM EDT
criminal possession...I think that's the main cause....You can own that many just make sure they are registered before you rob a bank...LOL
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 3:46:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/16/2003 3:51:18 PM EDT by Aimless]
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 4:11:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/16/2003 4:22:04 PM EDT by DavidC]

section 1 is not a prerequisite to proving the other offenses, it is a separate offense--it says OR at the end of the sentence. 265.02 (1) is one offense, 265.02 (2) is a separate offense, you only need to prove the elements of one of the subsections to prove that someone is guilty of Criminal Possession of a Weapon in the Third Degree


This is turning into an argument over how the 2nd is phrased

In the English language (which may not have anything to do with the way this is written)

A person is guilty of criminal possession of a weapon in the third
degree when:
(1) He commits the crime of criminal possession of a weapon in the
fourth degree as defined in subdivision one, two, three or five of
section 265.01, and has been previously convicted of any crime; or
(any of the following clauses.

It would seem that the and is the operative word; the actor needs to have commited a qualifying act and meet one of the other conditions.

Otherwise I think you are all in deep kimchee. becuase section 8 reads:

(8) Such person possesses a large capacity ammunition feeding device.


If a qualifying condition isn't met, doesn't that mean anyone who owns a single 30-round magazine is commiting criminal possession of a weapon in the third degree? Interpreting the way you are describing would mean just that (presuming NY doesn't have a weird definition of "high capacity feeding device")

Here's the whole thing for any interested bystanders:



S 265.02 Criminal possession of a weapon in the third degree.
A person is guilty of criminal possession of a weapon in the third
degree when:
(1) He commits the crime of criminal possession of a weapon in the
fourth degree as defined in subdivision one, two, three or five of
section 265.01, and has been previously convicted of any crime; or
(2) He possesses any explosive or incendiary bomb, bombshell, firearm
silencer, machine-gun or any other firearm or weapon simulating a
machine-gun and which is adaptable for such use; or
(3) He knowingly has in his possession a machine-gun, firearm, rifle
or shotgun which has been defaced for the purpose of concealment or
prevention of the detection of a crime or misrepresenting the identity
of such machine-gun, firearm, rifle or shotgun; or
(4) Such person possesses any loaded firearm. Such possession shall
not, except as provided in subdivision one or seven, constitute a
violation of this section if such possession takes place in such
person`s home or place of business; or
(5) (i) Such person possesses twenty or more firearms; or (ii) such
person possesses a firearm and has been previously convicted of a felony
or a class A misdemeanor defined in this chapter within the five years
immediately preceding the commission of the offense and such possession
did not take place in the person`s home or place of business; or
(6) Such person knowingly possesses any disguised gun; or
(7) Such person possesses an assault weapon; or
(8) Such person possesses a large capacity ammunition feeding device.
Criminal possession of a weapon in the third degree is a class D
felony.





Link Posted: 9/16/2003 5:14:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/16/2003 5:17:47 PM EDT by rkbar15]
1. In order to interpret PL 265.02. (5)(i) you need to review the definition of a "firearm" pursuant to PL section 265.

265.00. Definitions. As used in this article
and in article four hundred, the following terms shall mean and include:

3. "Firearm" means (a) any pistol or revolver;
or (b) a shotgun having one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length; or (c) a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length; or (d) any weapon made from a shotgun or rifle whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise if such weapon as altered, modified, or otherwise has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches; or (e) an assault weapon.For the purpose of this subdivision the length of the barrel on a shotgun or rifle shall be determined by measuring the distance between the muzzle and the face of the bolt, breech, or
breechlock when closed and when the shotgun or rifle is cocked; the overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center line of the bore. Firearm does not include an antique firearm.

2. Then you need to review the exemptions to 265.02.

265.20. Exemptions.
a. Sections 265.01, 265.02, 265.03, 265.04,
265.05, 265.10, 265.11, 265.12, 265.13, 265.15
and 270.05 shall not apply to:

1. Possession of any of the weapons,
instruments, appliances or substances specified
in sections 265.01, 265.02, 265.03, 265.04,
265.05 and 270.05 by the following:

3. Being licensed under Section 400 of the PL is your exemption. There is no limit to the number of firearms you can possess in NYS as long as you are licensed in accordance with Section 400 or meet one of the other exemptions.

3. Possession of a pistol or revolver by a
person to whom a license therefor has been
issued as provided under section 400.00 or
400.01 of this chapter; provided, that such a
license shall not preclude a conviction for the
offense defined in subdivision three of section
265.01 of this article.




Link Posted: 9/16/2003 5:28:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/16/2003 5:30:09 PM EDT by rkbar15]
Once again you have to review how a "Large capacity ammunition feeding device" is defined under PL 265.00. Pre-ban mags of any capacity are not "Large capacity ammunition feeding devices" under NYS law.

23. "Large capacity ammunition feeding device" means a magazine, belt, drum, feed strip, or similar device, manufactured after September thirteenth, nineteen hundred ninety-four, that has a capacity of, or that can be readily restored or converted to accept, more than ten rounds of ammunition; provided, however, that such term does not include an attached tubular device designed to accept, and capable of operating only with, .22 caliber rimfire ammunition.
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 6:31:13 PM EDT
Didn't realize that ownership of a firearm in NYS required a permit. Makes more sense now.

Link Posted: 9/16/2003 7:03:54 PM EDT
The definition of a firearm in NY gets even more complicated because the term "firearm" sometimes means something other then a handgun in other sections of the numerous laws.
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 9:34:24 PM EDT
only handguns, long guns can still be purchased in private sales or from an FFL with just the federal forms


Originally Posted By DavidC:
Didn't realize that ownership of a firearm in NYS required a permit. Makes more sense now.


Link Posted: 9/17/2003 6:53:48 AM EDT
Private sales of handguns are legal in NYS. You must have a purchase order which needs to be retained by the seller. Both the seller and buyer are required to add/remove the handgun from their respective permits through their counties permit amendment process. Since every county has their own procedures you need to check with them before making the private transfer.
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 3:16:06 PM EDT
all i know is i have more than 20 handguns on my permit, I think the cops in Mineola would have said something to me before i registered them.
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