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Posted: 8/26/2003 11:26:01 PM EDT
I know it is difficult to get a carry permit in NYC, but what are the prerequisites to getting one? What are the valid reasons to get one?

How about a license to possess a sidearm for HD if you live in a Manhattan apartment? How about a shotgun, pump action?

I live most of the year in NYC for work and have never checked to see how difficult it could be, although I have heard it is very difficult. Any help would be appreciated.

The only reason I have never made a permanent move to the city is because I can't own ARs there.
Link Posted: 8/27/2003 1:41:02 AM EDT
Have you ever considered living outside the city limits such as Nassau, Suffolk, Rockland, Orange, Westchester, Putnam, Ulster and Dutchess Counties?
Link Posted: 8/27/2003 10:05:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Raptor22:
Have you ever considered living outside the city limits such as Nassau, Suffolk, Rockland, Orange, Westchester, Putnam, Ulster and Dutchess Counties?



Cross off Rockland. The local judge is a demorat if I remember correctly. HE WILL NOT SIGN OFF ON unrestricted conceal license. Also, he was having a spat with the county sheriffs' dept and was not signing off on licenses for a while.
Link Posted: 8/27/2003 3:11:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/27/2003 3:15:45 PM EDT by ColtM4]
The bad news is that unless you transport large quantities of cash everyday becuause of your business there is no chance of getting one. In fact even business owners who do deposit large amounts of cash have a very difficult time getting one and those that do have to hire lawyers to get it for them , sometimes having to go to court.

The good news is that it is fairly easy to get a Premise or Target permit. The premise permit allows you to keep the handgun in your home for protection ,however you have to get permission from the licensing division to take out of your home for target shooting .They allow you a couple of these a year. The Target permit is preferable because you can take it to the range anytime you want w/o having to ask .

A rifle/shotgun permit is even easier to get w/o any restrictions like a pistol permit.

The licensing division is located in One Police Plaza first floor), thats where you get a handgun permit. To get a rifle/shotgun permit you have to go to Queens County Supreme Court on Queens Blvd. in Kew Gardnes ( in the basement)

It takes 4-6 months for the pistol permit and half that for the rifle/shotgun.

Now some of the particulars may have changed since I was a civilian but I'm sure most is still the same.

Good luck ,

Jack

PS : Move to Nassau County , its not that far and you can have all the AR's your heart desires !!
Link Posted: 8/27/2003 3:42:05 PM EDT
Colt last I heard nYC is no longer issuing "Target" permits because they realized people were carrying on them with only the risk of having it revoked as it is a carry permit. Now all holders who received Target permits are being issued Premise permits. Of course this makes it illegal to hunt with your pistol... Clusterfuck. Anyway, this is what I was informed of by my attorney last week who has several clients in NYC.
Link Posted: 8/27/2003 3:52:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
Colt last I heard nYC is no longer issuing "Target" permits because they realized people were carrying on them with only the risk of having it revoked as it is a carry permit. Now all holders who received Target permits are being issued Premise permits. Of course this makes it illegal to hunt with your pistol... Clusterfuck. Anyway, this is what I was informed of by my attorney last week who has several clients in NYC.



What you have said is the New York City view of the "premise" permit they issue. The confusion stems from the penal law, which provides for "premises" permits and "permit to carry" but does not provide other classes. About 3 years ago, a permit holder with a "target" permit was arrested for CCW, a felony charge. However, the man successfully argued that he had a valid permit and the charges were dismissed (although he lost his permit).

As a result, NYC changed all permit types to "premises." However, they issue you as separate green slip of paper giving you permission to hunt or target shoot and to transport the pistol in a locked hard sided container.

I am of the view that even the permit that NYC now calls "premises" is actually a "concealed carry" as the Penal Law views a premises permit as valid only in your home, i.e., it can't be taken out to target shoot or hunt. Therefore, even the current generation of pistol permits can be used for carry without being subject to illegal weapons possessions under Art 265 of the Penal Law, although you would be subject to prosecution for a Class A misdemeanor under Article 400 for violating the terms of your permit.

As for getting the pistol permit, the premises permit is a pain in the ass, requiring five (yes, five) different trips to 1 Police Plaza, and it costs $350 for the first 3 year (255 for permit + 95? dollars for fingerprinting). It takes six months, not less to obtain.

And even after you have the permit it takes 10 weeks plus to get approval to buy each new pistol.

KnightOne, having been through the process I'd be happy to walk you through it, IM me with your phone number and I'll give you a ring this weekend.

Link Posted: 8/27/2003 4:06:46 PM EDT
Phil, thanks for the further clarification.
Link Posted: 8/27/2003 4:35:26 PM EDT
Man they are just slowly but steadily erroding a citizens right to have a gun .

I've also heard that they are considering a law which will require permit holders to get liability insurance !!
Link Posted: 8/27/2003 5:14:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ColtM4:
Man they are just slowly but steadily erroding a citizens right to have a gun .



The New York State Court of Appeals has determined you have no right to own a handgun.
Link Posted: 8/27/2003 5:23:29 PM EDT
Phil, that is an interesting take on things. From what I recall, NY is essentially shall issue. They need to show cause for not issuing a permit. Now, it is the bullshit restrictions that limit what you can do with the gun that are my issue. I've never known anybody who has been denied a permit who has a clean record.
Link Posted: 8/27/2003 9:22:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
Phil, that is an interesting take on things. From what I recall, NY is essentially shall issue. They need to show cause for not issuing a permit. Now, it is the bullshit restrictions that limit what you can do with the gun that are my issue. I've never known anybody who has been denied a permit who has a clean record.



The denial is subject to an arbitrary and capricious review standard under Article 78. Meaning if your licensing officer determines all applications are to be denied absent showing good cause he is within his rights to do so.
Link Posted: 8/28/2003 3:45:37 AM EDT
Phil if the article 78 does not go your way you still have other legal recourse, including a lawsuit. Push comes to shove you will get your permit, barring any disqualifying factors, because they don't want a group of law-abiding citizens suing on the basis of being denied when the laws on the books clearly provide for the issuance of the permit. I don't know how they run things in NYC, but I've yet to hear of anybody being denied a permit upstate if the record is clean.
Link Posted: 8/28/2003 5:50:50 AM EDT
In NYC they will disqualify you for a 15 year old jaywalking charge. The MO at the permit bureau is to keep you from getting one for ANY reason.

They will eventually issue you a residence permit if your record is clean.

But they could stop issuing them across the board and then you would be SOL.
Link Posted: 8/28/2003 2:41:12 PM EDT
It's interesting that a NYC premises permit allows hunting use. Under NYS law a permit that is restricted to hunting is a concealed carry permit as there is no provision for open carry even while hunting. Maybe they mean you can carry your pistol a field while hunting in a locked container with another locked container for the ammo. When you see a critter you quickly unlock both containers, lock and load, blast away, quickly unload and lock everything back up before they arrest you.

There are an estimated 1-2 million "illegal" handguns in NYC so it's pretty obvious the license restrictions only have an effect on law abiding citizens. As usual NYC can KMA.

These are the licenses that are currently being issued in NYC.

www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/nypd/html/dclm/ldinfo.html

TYPES OF LICENSES

PREMISES LICENSE: IS A RESTRICTED TYPE OF LICENSE. It is issued for your RESIDENCE or BUSINESS. The Licensee may possess a handgun ONLY on the premises of the address indicated on the front of the license. Licensees may also transport their handguns and ammunition in SEPARATE LOCKED CONTAINERS, DIRECTLY to and from an authorized range, or hunting location. HANDGUNS MUST BE UNLOADED WHEN TRANSPORTING.


CARRY BUSINESS LICENSE: Is valid for the business name, address, and handguns listed on the front of the license. It is not transferable to any other person, business, occupation, or address, without the written approval of the commanding officer, license division.

LIMITED CARRY BUSINESS LICENSE: IS A RESTRICTED TYPE OF LICENSE. The licensee may only carry handguns indicated on the license in accordance with the specific limitations listed thereon. At all other times the handgun may be possessed only within the confines of the business address listed on the front of the license.

SPECIAL CARRY LICENSE: Is valid for the business name, address and handguns listed on the front of this license, only while the licensee has in his possession a valid basic county license issued according to the provisions of article 400 of the N.Y.S. Penal law. Upon the revocation, suspension, or cancellation of the basic license, the special license is rendered void and must be immediately returned to the license division.

CARRY GUARD LICENSE: (SECURITY GUARDS, ETC.) Applications for this type of license must be made with the documentation provided by a company's "Gun Custodian." It is issued only for the handgun listed on the license. The handgun may be carried only while the licensee is actively engaged in employment for the company whose name appears on the license, and/or while licensee is in transit directly to or from residence and place of employment. At all other times the handgun must be stored unloaded in a locked container, at either the address on the license, or at the employee's legal residence (within the State of New York).

Link Posted: 8/28/2003 3:34:31 PM EDT
It's also laughable that the old "target" permit did not allow you to keep your handgun loaded in your residence. You were required to keep it in a locked container separate from the ammo. If you had a target license they would not issue you a premises permit which did allow you to keep the firearm loaded. Dumb ass retards. Do they even read these regulations before they issue them?
Link Posted: 8/29/2003 5:10:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rkbar15:
Do they even read these regulations before they issue them?



Yes, they both read and write them quite carefully to make them as maddening as possible.
Link Posted: 9/6/2003 2:55:51 PM EDT
i want to clarify the nyc premises pistol permit situation. there is no more target due to the fact that under the law target unless marked restricted is really a carry permit or some legal mumbo jumbo like that.
the old target permit for the city did not allow you to keep it loaded in your residence unless you were in iminent threat(yeah right). the premises permit would only allow you to practice at a range 2 days a month and you had to select those days at the time the permit was issued.if you wanted to change the day you had to go to 1 pp and get approval. usually about 3 weeks. removing the gun from the residence without approval on a different day was grounds for revocation. this made the home defenders unable to shoot anything accurately and the target shooters unable to defend their homes.

they removed the target permit application a year or two back and now you get a premises/targetand you can go to a range anytime you want.

im curious about 1 thing . i have heard that nyc pistol permits are not reciprocal with the rest of new york state, if that is true do i need a nassua county permit as well if i shoot at a range in nassau cty. noone has ever bothered me and ive shown the permit but im curious. also on the same topic when we had the ARFCOM shoot at ft dix in nj am i allowed to bring a ny registered handgun to the range in nj or does one need a nj to even have the handgun in the state?
Link Posted: 9/6/2003 4:12:53 PM EDT
"PREMISES LICENSE: IS A RESTRICTED TYPE OF LICENSE. It is issued for your RESIDENCE or BUSINESS. The Licensee may possess a handgun ONLY on the premises of the address indicated on the front of the license. Licensees may also transport their handguns and ammunition in SEPARATE LOCKED CONTAINERS, DIRECTLY to and from an authorized range, or hunting location. HANDGUNS MUST BE UNLOADED WHEN TRANSPORTING.

You are also required by NYC law IAADAPMMASMH-2003 to wear a sign around your neck when transporting your handgun that reads: I Am A Dumbass. Please Mug Me And Steal My Handguns

WTF is wrong with these morons?

Link Posted: 9/7/2003 3:41:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 2gun:
im curious about 1 thing . i have heard that nyc pistol permits are not reciprocal with the rest of new york state, if that is true do i need a nassua county permit as well if i shoot at a range in nassau cty. noone has ever bothered me and ive shown the permit but im curious. also on the same topic when we had the ARFCOM shoot at ft dix in nj am i allowed to bring a ny registered handgun to the range in nj or does one need a nj to even have the handgun in the state?



As far as NYC permits, they are valid in all of New York State. However, non-NYC permits from other counties in NY state are not valid in the City without a validation.

As far as NJ goes, I've never taken a handgun there due to my uncertainty on the rules. Can someone clarify the laws for me?
Link Posted: 9/7/2003 6:52:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:
As far as NYC permits, they are valid in all of New York State. However, non-NYC permits from other counties in NY state are not valid in the City without a validation.

As far as NJ goes, I've never taken a handgun there due to my uncertainty on the rules. Can someone clarify the laws for me?



Phil_A_Steen: The NYS Penal Law does not allow you to carry with a premises permit. How does one hunt with a premises permit? Remember you are outside the jurisdiction of NYC and NYS does not allow any form of open carry. I don't see where the Penal Law was amended to allow this.

I'm with you on NJ. NJ does not allow off-duty NYS P.O. officers to bring their handguns into NJ. I personally know P.O.'s who secure their handgun(s) with the NYSP in Tarrytown before going into NJ.
Link Posted: 9/7/2003 11:26:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rkbar15:
Phil_A_Steen: The NYS Penal Law does not allow you to carry with a premises permit. How does one hunt with a premises permit? Remember you are outside the jurisdiction of NYC and NYS does not allow any form of open carry. I don't see where the Penal Law was amended to allow this.



Good points. From prior in the thread:

What you have said is the New York City view of the "premise" permit they issue. The confusion stems from the penal law, which provides for "premises" permits and "permit to carry" but does not provide other classes. About 3 years ago, a permit holder with a "target" permit was arrested for CCW, a felony charge. However, the man successfully argued that he had a valid permit and the charges were dismissed (although he lost his permit).

As a result, NYC changed all permit types to "premises." However, they issue you as separate green slip of paper giving you permission to hunt or target shoot and to transport the pistol in a locked hard sided container.

I am of the view that even the permit that NYC now calls "premises" is actually a "concealed carry" as the Penal Law views a premises permit as valid only in your home, i.e., it can't be taken out to target shoot or hunt. Therefore, even the current generation of pistol permits can be used for carry without being subject to illegal weapons possessions under Art 265 of the Penal Law, although you would be subject to prosecution for a Class A misdemeanor under Article 400 for violating the terms of your permit.



The question I was addressing is that I can legally go to Calverton, or Blue Mountain, or Nassau County range, and shoot my pistols, courtesy of my green range/hunting endorsement. But a Calverton, Cortlandt Manor or Uniondale resident could not legally go to West Side Rifle & Pistol in New York City without committing an Article 265 weapons possession crime (which would be a felony if the gun was loaded, included at the range).

While the permit New York City has graciously chosen to issue me purports to be a "residence" permit, the separate endorsement card I have for hunt/target usage renders the substance of it a "carry concealed" permit. Remember, those are the only two choices - it's one or the other under Article 400, and a premises permit is not valid off your premises for any reason, period end of story. Similarly, a Westchester county "target" permit is actually a "carry concealed" permit with administrative restrictions. Violating the restrictions put on the permit does not invalidate the permit and your immunity from prosecution for weapons possession under Article 265 -- but instead open you up for a revocation of your permit and a possible misdemeanor conviction for an Article 400 violation, which is better than a felony.
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