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Posted: 7/23/2003 5:03:34 PM EDT
as I was sitting in Don Pablos tonight with some friends with my glock on my hip under my shirt I got to thinking about how many people in NY carry concealed. It's obviously not as many as in states like Texas but there must be people that do it.
I rarely do it, but felt like it tonight. Figured I should since my "pistol permit" says License to Carry Pistol Hereby Granted across the top
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 5:16:53 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 6:06:16 PM EDT
I could see frowning on it if the person carrying drank.
I just had iced tea tonight
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 6:09:38 PM EDT
I'll never tell, and you'll never know... unless lethal force is required.
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 6:18:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/23/2003 6:24:41 PM EDT by Aimless]
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 6:23:58 PM EDT
If you carry properly, you should not be made. A Keltec p-32 disappears inside a pocket. A Kahr MK9 inside the waistband is not there... Get the idea? Don't try to carry more than can reasonably and effectively concealed.
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 6:26:24 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 6:32:46 PM EDT
LOL. learn to shoot and the calibre and number of rounds you carry won't mean as much... Your own words... what are these sight thingies for???? I'm betting you carry a 50AE because its louder...

Seriously, the Kahr MK9 carries 7 rounds of +p 9mm ammunition. The P32 may not ne as impressive as a .45, but it beats a knife, sure beats no weapon and remember the FBI stats about the sheer number of violent crimes that are prevented by the mere brandishing of a firearm. How many scumbags do you think know the terminal ballistics of various calibres... They know you have a gun in your hand and it is pointed at them.
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 6:36:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Aimless:
If you got made around here in a bar, particularly by an off duty cop, you might very well get questioned about it and your issuing judge might be contacted. If someone was actually caught drinking I am pretty sure the permit would be suspended as soon as the judge found out and a hearing would be scheduled to revoke the permit.

I'm just saying that everyone around here believes that you'll get in trouble for it, for whatever that's worth.




Interesting, in my neck of the woods and carrying on a retiree carry I bring my weapon wherever I go. Downstate, leaving your gun in the car would get your permit revoked. If you are not doing anything wrong drinking in a bar is not prohibited to my knowlege.
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 6:40:13 PM EDT
I am jealous. I live in NJ and it is like living in a strange "pass a law to feel good" place. Retired LEOs can carry, no civilians - sorry.

Link Posted: 7/23/2003 7:51:38 PM EDT
didn't take it that way
I would carry at work but we have a no violence policy that includes no weapons


Originally Posted By Aimless:
I'm not criticizing and didn't mean to infer that you were drinking...




I also have a similar question. Is open carry allowed? I don't think the law specifies one way or another. I'd never open carry in this state, especially around Buffalo, excpet for during hunting season when I'd already be open carrying a shotgun.
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 11:40:18 PM EDT
When I was at Buffalo Gun Center the other day I asked them how the permit system is in Erie County. I told them NYS puts you through lots of bullshit to carry a damn gun, and I didn't think it was worth the hassle unless you could get an unrestricted permit.

The guy pretty much said that "There is no section in NY Penal law that gives judges the authority to put restrictions on permits." He then went on to say, even if the judge writes "hunting/target shooting only" he has no authority to back it up.

I'm not sure I'd put that to the test, but it was interesting to hear the guy telling me to just ignore what the judge says. In this day of liability lawsuits etc. I probably would have just not said anything.

So I'm still in a big dillema...do I apply for a permit, or don't I? FWIW
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 2:21:15 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 3:38:31 AM EDT
Correct, case law precedent allows for the judge to suspend or revoke a permit as the issuance of a permit is deemed an administrative action that the administrative authority (the judge) can amend at will. Carrying in violation of the restrictions is not a crime. If you get charged, the charges WILL be tossed. The only restriction that I am aware of being criminal is the no carry in NYC, and that is written in statute and violation is a crime. There is simply no provision in NYS law that allows you to be charged for carrying in violation of your permit.
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 8:05:32 AM EDT
SO FROM WHAT I'M READING IF I HAVE MY NASSAU CTY PISTOL PERMIT I CAN CARRY MY HANDGUN ANYWHERE IN NY STATE EXCEPT NYC
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 12:35:52 PM EDT
Anyone get their Judge to remove the restrictions on their carry permit?
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 12:38:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mag162:
SO FROM WHAT I'M READING IF I HAVE MY NASSAU CTY PISTOL PERMIT I CAN CARRY MY HANDGUN ANYWHERE IN NY STATE EXCEPT NYC



Is this right?????

I carry but only in Nassau County.
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 1:04:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/24/2003 8:43:41 PM EDT by BuLLet]

Originally Posted By bear3351:

Originally Posted By mag162:
SO FROM WHAT I'M READING IF I HAVE MY NASSAU CTY PISTOL PERMIT I CAN CARRY MY HANDGUN ANYWHERE IN NY STATE EXCEPT NYC



Is this right?????

I carry but only in Nassau County.



Bear, you did get a book about your permit when you got it, right? You are permitted to carry to and from the range, that's it. Your permit is not valid in NYC as well. If you do decide to carry it other then what I've stated above, you would be in violation of the terms of the permit. They would in all likelihood revoke it if you were caught. You wouldn't be convicted of PL 265.xx for carrying a firearm cause the permit makes the possession legal. You're just violating the conditions of the permit.


edited to add..
oh, I hear you have a 'restricted business carry', terms are a bit different.. but, most still holds true. Read that pamphlet you got with the permit.. :)
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 1:55:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sterling18:
Anyone get their Judge to remove the restrictions on their carry permit?



Yup! You need to have a valid reason(s) to get them removed though.
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 4:31:04 PM EDT
I have personally seen the directive issued by the NYSP legal division that stated Police Officers are NOT to arrest a PP holder who is in violation of the restrictions on his permit. It further stated that a restriction is admistrative in nature and further advised the officer to notify the licensing officer of the violation if warranted.

www.troopers.state.ny.us/Firearms/FAQs/FAQindex.html

Q - What section of the Penal Law authorizes the placing of restrictions on pistol permits by the issuing authority?

The Penal Law does not specifically authorize the placing of restrictions on pistol permits. However, court decisions have consistently supported the ability of licensing officials to impose these restrictions. Such an imposition is an administrative function of the licensing officer.

Licensees in violation of these restrictions would therefore not be subject to criminal prosecution but would face action being taken by the court of issuance in the form of suspension or possible revocation of the license.

Link Posted: 7/24/2003 4:39:43 PM EDT
Yup, and any suspension or revocation is subject to an Article 78 hearing in which the judge must show that his actions were not arbitrary and capricious. Also, every issuing judge in NYS is an elected official and believe me, they don't like controversy.

Why were you carrying your firearm outside of the restrictions I placed on it?

I was traveling between point A and B, I needed to make a stop in between. The option was carry it on me where I could attest to its whereabouts and security, or leave it in my vehicle your honor. Had the pistol been stolen from my vehicle you would be revoking my permit and if subsequently used in a crime I might myself face charges or a lawsuit. Your restrictions left me in a Catch 22 your honor and I made the choice that best considered public safety. I'm sure the average person would agree... should we find out?

OK, maybe you shouldn't try that unless you have some juice backing you up.
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 4:56:25 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 5:08:04 PM EDT
Very true... But there are ways of making the article 78 hearing interesting... for example, FOIL the list of all permits the judge has issued and which ones have restrictions and which do not. Cross reference said list to the donor database for campaigns and who is related to who. The judge better damn well be able to show why so and so rated an unrestricted permit and you did not... Remember, arbitrary and capricious are the key words here. If there are discrepencies you find a reporter just looking for a government corruption story... Trust me, if played right you can make a judge very uncomfortable.
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 5:59:56 PM EDT
Heh, Hiram scares judges.. :)

Actually, he's been scaring us for some time now, it's about time he spreads himself out some more.. :)

Thankfully, most of NY State's pistol permits are not officiated by some elected/appointed judge. Hiram, you fuck with the judge you'll loose.. hands down!
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 6:14:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 6:21:18 PM EDT
You don't understand? Let me try and explain it better. Where are most of the people living? NYC and Long Island right? That's about 13 Million people living in a state of 15 Million I believe. Those 13 Million people have their permits officiated by the Police Department not by any judge. Anyone and I do mean anyone here can get a permit, just as long as you don't have a criminal record and are not a nutcase. Albeit most are getting target type permits, not full carrys. But, that's the same in most of the state anyway. I would add westchester in there but, I'm not fully sure their pd takes care of the permits, I think they do, but, I'm not 100% sure.
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 6:31:19 PM EDT
There is no such thing as a target permit. There is premise, business, carry and permits issued to certain judges. There is no such thing as a restricted permit. I'm waiting for this to appear before the Court of Appeals again, last time it was in front of a majority of liberal judges... Now we have a few more conservatives on the bench. We need to start pushing for a change of the penal law as well. There are enough upstate Dems in the assembly that could be made vulnerable if the permit holders in this state would get off their asses.
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 6:37:49 PM EDT
No such thing, you're smoking crack Hiram. Yes, the penal law doesn't define a 'Target' permit, but, sure as shit, they stamp them here 'Restricted Target' so yes they do exist. Whether we like it or not.
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 6:44:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BuLLet:
No such thing, you're smoking crack Hiram. Yes, the penal law doesn't define a 'Target' permit, but, sure as shit, they stamp them here 'Restricted Target' so yes they do exist. Whether we like it or not.



Uh-huh... try carrying on a premise permit... that is a crime. Carry on a "restricted" "target" permit and the worst than can do to you is revoke it. Why do you think that is? There is no statute that says there is a target permit, that is a fucked up judicial interpretation by a left-leaning court that you are giving validity to.

This isn't even a philosophical argument about what the second amendment means... There is a definitive statute and blatantly incongruous case law that they are basing their actions on. Are you content to allow the judiciary to subvert the power of a duly elected state legislature and executive?
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 6:46:09 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 6:54:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:

Uh-huh... try carrying on a premise permit... that is a crime. Carry on a "restricted" "target" permit and the worst than can do to you is revoke it. Why do you think that is? There is no statute that says there is a target permit, that is a fucked up judicial interpretation by a left-leaning court that you are giving validity to.

This isn't even a philosophical argument about what the second amendment means... There is a definitive statute and blatantly incongruous case law that they are basing their actions on. Are you content to allow the judiciary to subvert the power of a duly elected state legislature and executive?



I know full well what happens when you carry on a target permit. Mostly nothing. You said, 'there is no such thing as a target permit', that's simply not true. Yes, a target permit is not defined in the Penal Law, but, they exist nonetheless. I'm not arguing that this is wrong or right, just that your statement is incorrect.
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 7:05:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Aimless:
People may be packed in like rats on Long Island and in NYC but that's only a few counties out of the state and there you just plain can't get a carry permit, just a bullshit useless permit so how is having the police department BETTER? That way you are just plained screwed and won't be able to get a permit that allows you to carry a gun unless you are a former cop or a big contributor to a local political party.

Up here with judges you can still get a real permit, though some that is sometimes not true in some counties but guess what- judges have to get re elected, cops only have to keep ex-cops, politicos and the guys they get their free comped lunches, beer kegs for their parties and other kick backs happy so there is no chance of their having to answer to the public. I'll take an elected official over a cop making those decisions any day.



My statement is 100% valid, most pistol permits are officiated by Police Departments not judges. In nassau and suffolk counties with a restricted 'target/hunting' permit, you are permitted to carry to and from the range. There are many and I do mean many 24 hour ranges here. Gee, I wonder why.. :)

By the way, I'd agree with your assessment of rats, but only applied to NYC. There's plenty of room here on Long Island still. :)

Please do conduct a survey as to how many New Yorkers have Full carry permits Aimless. Be it upsate or downstate, you'll find most have the restricted type. So, I'd much rather deal with the PD then some individual Judge who might just be 100% anti gun and think none should have a permit whatsoever. I like the anomitiy of the PD's.
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 7:06:35 PM EDT
So if a judge were to suddenly say it was a crime to whistle Dixie while wearing polka-dot boxers on alternating Sundays that would make it a law? BEEEEHHHHHH! We have a state constitution that gives the power to originate all laws in the legislature and must be passed in identical form and signed or vetoed by the Governor, and if veotoed by the governor over-riden by a super-majority of both houses of the legislature. That is the ONLY way you can create a law in New York State.

The legislature clearly delineated the types of permits that existed, and had they wanted to, they could have created a "sporting/target" permit. They did not. No action by the judiciary may create a law where it does not exist. They may interpret the law, which is what they did here, but they may not create it.

Ever wonder why they took the hokie step of saying that restricting a permit is an administrative function? Because they knew damn well there is no such thing as a target permit. If there were a such thing, your permit would not read, "licence to CARRY pistol is hereby granted." The license would instead read something like, "license to carry a pistol for the purposes of hunting and/or target shooting is hereby granted." Instead it is added on as a "restriction" on an existing license. There is absolutely nothing in NYS statute that authorizes this.

The fact is 99% of the people out there will not bother to question it, and that is what they are hoping for. Trust me here, I've consulted plenty of attornies on this including several extremely senior "general counsel" level attornies for the State of New York. To the one they have said there is no such thing as a restricted or target permit. If there were, you could be charged with a CRIME for being in violation since the whole permit structure is set out in the PENAL law.
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 7:11:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 7:18:34 PM EDT
Hiram you're preaching to the choir here. Where did I say it was against the law to carry on a restricted target permit? I said quite the opposite. You made statements claiming 'target' permits don't exist, that's simply not true and I stated so. Just because I'm not jumping up and down ranting and raving about that being illegal doesn't mean I condone it. Matter of fact it's BS, the practice should be stopped.

Oh, let me clue you in to what NYC has recently done to people's permits. When you come up for renewal now, and if you had a 'restricted target' permit, guess what, you now just lost that one. You get a 'premiss permit' now. See, you got what you wanted. Someone must have gotten smart in NYC and fought that what they were doing was not based in law. So they changed it, for the worse for most permit holders, cause now if they get caught carrying they can be charged with a crime.
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 7:21:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Aimless:
Everybody I personally know upstate has a full carry permit.



Ditto here...
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 7:25:07 PM EDT
See, you're getting it now... That is why it is bad to have the faceless bureaucrats issuing permits...

My point is this... for every other class of permits, if you violate the terms of the permit it is a crime... yet here violating the terms of a "target" permit is not a crime? Why is that? Because the permit does not legally exist under statute, as such there can be no criminal penalty. If such a class of permit existed to carry in violation would be a crime.
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 7:31:44 PM EDT
No Hiram, I'd much rather deal with faceless bureaucrats in the PD, I thought I made that clear above. But, you on the other hand, would rather poke at the ONE individual that officiates your permit and think you can beat him with threats of going to the press or sinking his chance at re-election.. That's just plain foolish..
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 7:35:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 7:39:37 PM EDT
Heh, of course most are. Who else would a retired Sgt hang out with.. :) Hiram's a bit slow I think, he's all caught up with what's written in law as opposed to what in fact is being done. Faceless bureaucrats can and do bend things to help people out, I should know as I was one of them...
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 7:51:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BuLLet:
No Hiram, I'd much rather deal with faceless bureaucrats in the PD, I thought I made that clear above. But, you on the other hand, would rather poke at the ONE individual that officiates your permit and think you can beat him with threats of going to the press or sinking his chance at re-election.. That's just plain foolish..



I can go shopping, relative sits on the bench, state supreme court.
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 7:54:02 PM EDT
Chautauqua county still issues them unreistricted. I put collecting, target shooting, hunting, and protection for my reasons and got an unrestricted. There was a flyer with my application saying they no longer issued ones with protection as the only reason.
I've heard Erie county puts restrictions on them and Niagara county does not, but I have not seen a permit from either of those counties
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 7:54:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BuLLet:
Heh, of course most are. Who else would a retired Sgt hang out with.. :) Hiram's a bit slow I think, he's all caught up with what's written in law as opposed to what in fact is being done. Faceless bureaucrats can and do bend things to help people out, I should know as I was one of them...



Bullet... some of us are political consultants working right in the halls of power... I have been walking the corridors for close to a decade, I know my way around, thanks...
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 7:56:42 PM EDT
Great for you Hiram, where are all the changes you've gotten your associates to make?
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 8:18:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Aimless:
Everybody I personally know upstate has a full carry permit.



Geez, how far north do I have to move. I'm in Rockland and I have the same shit, only difference is that my license only cost me $74 dollars and it's for life.

For those folks that have to renew and pay hundreds of dollars, I really feel bad for.
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 8:51:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BuLLet:
Great for you Hiram, where are all the changes you've gotten your associates to make?


uh oh.
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 9:01:36 PM EDT
While not able to derail it, I did get the draft of the AWB changed so it did not classify EVERY semi auto rifle with a detachable mag as an assault weapon. Had I not, a Ruger 10/22 would have been one by definition. Any other wiseass remarks you want to make Bullet?

BTW, I risked losing my job on that one but saw the chance to make a difference and so I put it on the line. If you were active on the board back when that all broke down you would have known that as I was keeping everyone here continuously updated and helping direct the campaign that stopped the initial bill in its tracks. Sure, we got stuck with a mirror ban as the feds with no expiration, but that beats having them taken away all together.
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 9:15:52 PM EDT
Heh, you know.. if you could provide one shred of proof I might just swallow that. Do tell us who you influenced, to make these changes. Oh, while you're at it, how many total reps are in the assembly and how many are in the senate? How many were beholden to you? I want to see how far your influence reaches..

And please provide the draft as well, I'd love to read this thing. Also, the many iterations I'm sure it went though as well.
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 9:19:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:

BTW, I risked losing my job on that one but saw the chance to make a difference and so I put it on the line.




Don't you work for the NYS Department of Finance? WTF does that got to do with NY's AWB legislation? I recall you threating people with turning them in just recently for not paying tax on out of state purchases. And don't get your panties in a knot, I know you were just joking.
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 9:28:18 PM EDT
150 members of the State Assembly, 62 in the State Senate.

Senior Leadership:
Assembly:
Speaker - Sheldon Silver
Assembly Ways and Means - Denny Farrel
Minority Leader - Charley Nesbitt

Senate:
Majority Leader - Joe Bruno
Deputy Majority Leader - Dean Skelos
Minority Leader - David Patterson

How I accomplished what I did will not be put in writing because as I said, I could have damn near lost my job for that. Here is a clue, it was an Assembly Dem who turned out to be our saving grace in getting the bill changed. I don't work for the Democrats. You want to have dinner sometime and discuss it and I'll be glad to.

You can believe what you want, I'm not going to convince you of anything you don't want to believe. Aside from that your words dignify no further response.
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 9:32:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BuLLet:

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:

BTW, I risked losing my job on that one but saw the chance to make a difference and so I put it on the line.




Don't you work for the NYS Department of Finance? WTF does that got to do with NY's AWB legislation? I recall you threating people with turning them in just recently for not paying tax on out of state purchases. And don't get your panties in a knot, I know you were just joking.



I work with them on taxation issues, particularly as they relate to inter-governmental and media relations. I started my career in the legislature and keep my contacts there up-to-date, more so on the Senate side than the Assembly. That is how I was involved, back door to the parties involved, not through direct agency work.

Anyway, its late, any time you want to sit down and talk about Albany politics I'm game. And for the record, I have absolutely nothing to do with audit or enforcement. I just lend my knowledge on tax issues when they arise. I would love it if the state did away with its tax department and I was out of a job.
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