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Posted: 4/15/2003 10:13:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/23/2003 1:38:22 PM EDT by ar-jedi]
guys,

first time buyer of a new BM lower. got the purchase side of it all lined up. talked to my local FFL this evening -- he said "i gotta check with the state police etc on this one, it's not clear that i can transfer an AR15 lower" and "in fact, NJ law specifically prohibits owning the 'Bushmaster Assault Rifle".

can someone point me to a (official?) reference that says "BM XM15 postban lowers are permitted in the state of NJ"? or do we just rely on the "substantially identical" clause to get our AR's?

www.state.nj.us/lps/dcj/agguide/assltf.htm

thanks for any help!
jim


Link Posted: 4/16/2003 1:06:08 AM EDT
A friend of mine from North Bergen, NJ purchased a postban Bushmaster XM15 last year. I also know someone else that tried to buy a Bushmaster lower to get it transferred to NJ and the FFL wanted to gouge him for $60 for the transfer. Your FFL is full of it. Go to another FFL.
Link Posted: 4/16/2003 8:16:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/16/2003 8:17:40 AM EDT by FMJunkie]
Well, I guess every FFL has to learn at some point or another... (I would be happy to personally drive you to three or four major firearms dealers in this state that have numerous Bushmasters on the racks for sale at this very moment.)

I direct your attention to:
www.njsp.org/about/fire_ag1.html

Points of note are:


The Colt Match Target Rifle, based on the manufacturer’s specifications, is a new line of rifles and is not part of the AR-15 series, and thus, is not prohibited under N.J.S.A.2 C: 39-1w(1).


-and-


If you have any questions regarding the classification of these two firearms, please contact the:

State Police Firearms Unit at 609-882-2000



Yes, there is a specific Bushmaster rifle banned in title 2C but, its not the XM15.

I hope this helps. And, welcome to the addiction!!
Link Posted: 4/16/2003 8:45:53 AM EDT
Find your calm, padawan. Last year I picked up a Bushmaster XM15-E2S 16" M4 type from an FFL in New Jersey. I got almost EXACTLY the same thing...got a call from the FFL when everything was finalized for the order, and he said he'd have to 'call in to the state police to make sure it's legal'. A few months later (SNAFU on the rifle type), I brought her home. I'm pretty much convinced it's a standard CYA thing on their side, which to an extent is understandable given the legal climate in this state. Just for the record, which FFL is this?


I also know someone else that tried to buy a Bushmaster lower to get it transferred to NJ and the FFL wanted to gouge him for $60 for the transfer. Your FFL is full of it. Go to another FFL.


Sixty?? I thought I was being gouged when people were telling me 50! That's highway rapery!
Link Posted: 4/16/2003 2:54:47 PM EDT

folks,

ok, update time -- just got off the phone. my FFL guy called the NJSP this morning, but his usual contact wasn't there. substitute NJSP guy said "NO AR-15, preban/postban/whatever, is legal to sell in NJ -- do not do the transfer, as it is an assault weapon covered by NJ law." hmmmmm.

while on the phone with the FFL guy, i explained the whole XM-15 vs AR-15 situation, the fact that these firearms are on the rack in various NJ gun shops, and the fact that the "substantially identical" NJSP interpretation allows for the sale and ownership of XM-15 type firearms. FFL guy is taking another go at it; he's going to get his usual guy at the NJSP on the phone in the AM and see if he can clear this up. meanwhile he is going to read the link that i sent him (NJSP interpretation webpage). he sees my points but ultimately, as he put it, "it's my FFL on the line here."

one area of concern seems to be the fact that it's "just a lower" which seems to imply that i could put ANY upper on it (for example, a 10" pre-ban barrel). as if i couldn't do this if i bought a complete XM-15? nevertheless, if i wanted to risk federal firearms charges by "assembling" a non-compliant, illegal postban rifle using preban parts, that's my idiotic decision, not the FFL's. for the record i'm not doing that, as the seller of the NIB postban-compliant BM 16" XM-15 upper would confirm.

hard-case writes:
> Just for the record, which FFL is this?

i'll let you all know when he has given me a final answer, one way or the other. he is doing further research and having a second conversation with the NJSP firearms folks. that's goodness, i think. but it's not settled yet and i'll hold the name until there is an outcome.

ps
just in case, does anyone know an FFL in monmouth county (holmdel area) who may be a tad more saavy when it comes to XM-15 transfers?

pps
if anyone is wondering, i'm trying to put together a non-catalog BM rifle -- namely a postban fixed telestock lower with a postban 16" M4-profile 'blunt' upper (no muzzle brake).

thanks for the insight above and anything further.

jim
Link Posted: 4/16/2003 3:01:51 PM EDT
Just visit a few PA gunshows until you find a good deal. There was a guy sellin RRA stripped lowers for $130... not too bad considering the alternatives. Something to think about for next time anyway.
Link Posted: 4/16/2003 3:33:26 PM EDT
The Sportsemen's Center on Rt 130 in Bordentown, NJ will transfer the lower for you. Its $40 for the transfer plus the $15 NICS check. Just call them and tell them where to mail the license to and they'll have it out the next day. Yes, its a lot for a transfer but, they are fast and they know what they are doing... (I don't mean to insult the guy you're working with but, what you are dealing with is absolutely ridiculous)
Link Posted: 4/16/2003 5:04:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FMJunkie:
The Sportsemen's Center on Rt 130 in Bordentown, NJ will transfer the lower for you. Its $40 for the transfer plus the $15 NICS check. Just call them and tell them where to mail the license to and they'll have it out the next day. Yes, its a lot for a transfer but, they are fast and they know what they are doing... (I don't mean to insult the guy you're working with but, what you are dealing with is absolutely ridiculous)



Are transfers this much throughout the state? Most i ever paid was $25 here in NY
Link Posted: 4/16/2003 7:11:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hoplite:
Are transfers this much throughout the state? Most i ever paid was $25 here in NY



Yep. I think it was $50 for Harry's Army Navy. Also, neither of them will just provide a copy of their FFL...IIRC Harry's wouldn't unless they receive a copy of the FFL from the shipper, and Sportmen's it was 'unless we already have their FFL on file'.

Basically, as far as I've seen, NJ really does suck w/regards to dealing with transfers. Not that I blame them in the least.....considering how we're all treated in this state, they're just protecting themselves. But to me it does go a bit far.

Bottom line for being in NJ....do a web search for FFLs, or check out a shotgun news. There are a lot of smaller time FFLs that will do a completely legal transfer for much less hassle and cost. When I got my bolt gun, I only had to pay I think 27 bucks for the whole shebang.

ar-jedi....I'd be willing to bet money that when he talks to the 'regular guy', this thing will get resolved. Sounds like your FFL got connected to someone who's either not connected to the 'firearms division', is very new, or has an axe to grind.


if anyone is wondering, i'm trying to put together a non-catalog BM rifle -- namely a postban fixed telestock lower with a postban 16" M4-profile 'blunt' upper (no muzzle brake).


Um......I'm kinda lost on what you mean by 'non-catalog' BM.



Began life as a Bushmaster XM15-E2S-M4 Type 16" carbine, postban. It's got the fixed telestock, and the full barrel, no brake. Ordered right out of the catalog by the FFL. Just swapped the handguards for Colt M4 guards, the standard grip for a Sierra Precision, and an ARMS 38E-SX with Aimpoint.
Link Posted: 4/16/2003 8:09:25 PM EDT

hard-case writes:
> Um......I'm kinda lost on what you mean by 'non-catalog' BM.

i meant "non-standard-config" as in they (BM) don't have a rifle in the catalog in the configuration i want. thus, i'm basically doing the same thing you did, a bit from this page, a bit from that page. of course everything BUT the lower can come to my door. i really like the full 16" M4 profile with no brake. BM, to me, seems brake happy when it comes to their range of carbines.

nice AR setup, by the way. clean, real clean. nice and simple. i like it. got a question for you -- i was under the impression that the extended length ARMS #38 rails were NOT compatible with the M4 handguards. but your picture portrays otherwise. do you have a standard handguard on top, did you shave things down a bit, or am i missing something here? does the #38EX or #38E-SX actually work with M4 hadguards?

thanks,
jim

Link Posted: 4/17/2003 8:55:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/17/2003 9:01:22 AM EDT by hard-case]

Originally Posted By ar-jedi:
i meant "non-standard-config" as in they (BM) don't have a rifle in the catalog in the configuration i want. thus, i'm basically doing the same thing you did, a bit from this page, a bit from that page. of course everything BUT the lower can come to my door. i really like the full 16" M4 profile with no brake. BM, to me, seems brake happy when it comes to their range of carbines.



That's why I was kinda lost. I mean, you can just have your FFL call up Bushy and order the complete gun that way....you aren't limited to only what configs are listed in the catalog. You want the XM15 M4 Type with the full 16", you can have the FFL order it that way from BM and it'll come just that way, fully assembled. That's what I did.

As for the brake....having shot both with and without brake, there's a noticeable difference in muzzle rise and some difference in recoil between the two. For your more casual shooter, or someone not too keen on recoil (which I thought was half the fun!) the brake would help in control and accuracy. That's probably why they offer it as standard. Also the brake attempts to maintain a 'closer to military' look.



nice AR setup, by the way. clean, real clean. nice and simple. i like it.



Thanks! I'll probably get reamed for this, but I'm not really a gadget-whore when it comes to my AR....and I've never really liked the look of all the rail systems out there. Though I'll admit, I'm debating putting on an ACE skeleton stock.


got a question for you -- i was under the impression that the extended length ARMS #38 rails were NOT compatible with the M4 handguards. but your picture portrays otherwise. do you have a standard handguard on top, did you shave things down a bit, or am i missing something here? does the #38EX or #38E-SX actually work with M4 hadguards?

thanks,
jim



Both top and bottom are double-shielded M4 handguards, and neither of the longer versions of the #38 will clear. I went so far as to email ARMS about it, and they confirmed it. Even though you can't really tell from most pics, the tops of the M4 guards taper, and they're maybe an 1/8" too thick heightwise at the top. I just took a file to the tip of my handguard and cleared out that part. The rail covers where I worked with the file, so it still looks nice, and having mounted the aimpoint on the edge and near the middle, I prefer the further out mounting....for some reason it's easier for me to use the Aimpoint when both eyes are open.
Link Posted: 4/19/2003 2:01:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ar-jedi:

ps
just in case, does anyone know an FFL in monmouth county (holmdel area) who may be a tad more saavy when it comes to XM-15 transfers?




Call Ron at www.legacyfirearms.com/

He works out of his home in Wall and usually stocks a few Bushmasters. He is reasonable on the transfers IIRC. Good luck.
Link Posted: 4/21/2003 5:07:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ar-jedi:
guys,

"in fact, NJ law specifically prohibits owning the 'Bushmaster Assault Rifle".



The Bushmaster that the list is referring to is the original Bushmaster rifle from the '80's. It was kind of a mix of ar and ak. It took AR mags, and used some of the fire control parts but had a folding stock and an AK gas system. I shot one a few times in "the good old days" before such stuff was illegal here in NJ. The rifle actually belonged to a cop that I knew. It shot pretty well and we never had a problem with it. The one thing that stands out in my mind is that it was always easy to clean...not nearly as much "gunk" in the chamber as my Olympic AR.

I realize that this doesn't help much, it's just a history lesson.

KA


Link Posted: 4/23/2003 1:37:52 PM EDT

folks,

final update -- my local FFL guy (see top post) got confirmation from the NJSP/BATF/God that it is in fact *legal* for him to transfer my new BM XM-15 lower. so this is a HAPPY ENDING post! yaaaaay!

anyway, besides a few days of delay this worked out OK -- he is within walking distance of my house and therefore he's super convenient. moreover his transfer charge is less than most of the postings above (in some cases half as much).

in case anyone is interested, the FFL info...
Bill Jeandron
65 Broad Street
Keyport, NJ 07735
phone: 732 264 1989
email: skatafrata (at symbol) aol.com
$30 for transfer, $15 NICS

again, he erred on the side of caution, read up on things, contacted the right folks at least TWICE, and generally did his due diligence regarding a subject he had not dealt with before. i don't blame him in the environment we NJ'ers live in. but it all worked out well in the end and he was in constant contact for the duration.

thanks for the support/wisdom/alternatives provided above. when i get everything assembled i will take some pics and write up the obligatory "Look what i got today!" post to show off the new hardware. gotta run, more online orders to place ya know... gotta prep to feed, clean, and care for the day when the stork, er, i mean FFL calls. hen
jim aka ar-jedi

Link Posted: 5/2/2003 3:32:50 PM EDT
I'm glad because I was just about to beg you to stop this post.
Many dearlers appear to be brain dead and if you deal with some idiot at the law enforcement level your going to get an answer that is contradictory to the actual law. The lawyers aren't much better and I wouldn't give you 2 cents for Nappan's opinion.
There are a lot more 'assault' type weapons legal in this state than you think or for that matter most dealers.
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