Texas State Aquarium - Carry Question - Page 1

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Texas State Aquarium - Carry Question

Posted: 10/3/2017 10:32:48 AM EDT

I went with my family to the Texas State Aquarium in Corpus back in July. I noticed they had a 51% sign posted outside the ticket booth. They don't sell alcohol there, so I was confused as to the legality of carrying there. I did not carry, because it was the summer and I know they do kids camps there. (The Fort Worth Zoo has a camp on premises and there's the ongoing debate / legality of carrying there because of the school and camps)

So ... what's with the 51% sign at the aquarium? Is it an amusement park? Could I have carried? Could I not? I'm still perplexed just due to that stupid sign.

Posted: 10/3/2017 11:22:45 AM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
I went with my family to the Texas State Aquarium in Corpus back in July. I noticed they had a 51% sign posted outside the ticket booth. They don't sell alcohol there, so I was confused as to the legality of carrying there. I did not carry, because it was the summer and I know they do kids camps there. (The Fort Worth Zoo has a camp on premises and there's the ongoing debate / legality of carrying there because of the school and camps)

So ... what's with the 51% sign at the aquarium? Is it an amusement park? Could I have carried? Could I not? I'm still perplexed just due to that stupid sign.

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51% is an alcohol thing (TABC), it has nothing to do with kids, in fact kids are not normally supposed to be allowed to be in 51% establishments. If you have questions about whether a liquor licensee is a 51% establishment (sign RED) you can look them up on TABC's web site (it was kinda a PITA last time I did it, as I had to download a spreadsheet and search through it as I wasn't able to find the place I was looking for with the online search tool, but you may be more lucky).

Anyway, I just searched (tabc.state.tx.us) and I couldn't find Texas State Aquarium using the online search, so if they have a license it may be under a different name. If they don't have a license then the 51% sign is meaningless. If they post a 51% sign and their license is "blue" not only is it meaningless, the licensee is violating the TABC code and they could be punished for that. TABC code specifies what signs a licensee is required to post, and they are not supposed to post both the blue and red signs or the signs that don't correspond with their license, although occasionally you see a place which clearly doesn't undertand the rules (TABC sends out a sign kit with all the signs and some places just post all of them, not just the ones they are required to post).

As I understand it, school field trips and kids camps do not make an establishment a "school" unless a school (or schools) has/have rented out the entire facility and the facility is not open to the general public.

Posted: 10/3/2017 2:33:44 PM EDT

[#2]

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Quoted:

51% is an alcohol thing (TABC), it has nothing to do with kids, in fact kids are not normally supposed to be allowed to be in 51% establishments. If you have questions about whether a liquor licensee is a 51% establishment (sign RED) you can look them up on TABC's web site (it was kinda a PITA last time I did it, as I had to download a spreadsheet and search through it as I wasn't able to find the place I was looking for with the online search tool, but you may be more lucky).

Anyway, I just searched (tabc.state.tx.us) and I couldn't find Texas State Aquarium using the online search, so if they have a license it may be under a different name. If they don't have a license then the 51% sign is meaningless. If they post a 51% sign and their license is "blue" not only is it meaningless, the licensee is violating the TABC code and they could be punished for that. TABC code specifies what signs a licensee is required to post, and they are not supposed to post both the blue and red signs or the signs that don't correspond with their license, although occasionally you see a place which clearly doesn't undertand the rules (TABC sends out a sign kit with all the signs and some places just post all of them, not just the ones they are required to post).

As I understand it, school field trips and kids camps do not make an establishment a "school" unless a school (or schools) has/have rented out the entire facility and the facility is not open to the general public.

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Thanks! Yep ... they didn't sell alcohol and I was perplexed at the sign and why it was there.

Posted: 10/3/2017 3:38:47 PM EDT

[#3]

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Thanks! Yep ... they didn't sell alcohol and I was perplexed at the sign and why it was there.

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Reminder - the 51% sign is for businesses that SERVE (on-premises consumption) alcohol AND derive 51% or more of their revenue from this consumption. That's why a liquor store does not have the 51% signs. Most do not allow on-premises consumption.

CMOS

Posted: 10/3/2017 7:52:51 PM EDT

[#4]

Red Sign at the aquarium

TABC sign search

Texas3006 website entry

License number MB905490

tldr: no 3006/3007 signs although it shows a valid red 51% sign

Posted: 10/3/2017 9:58:24 PM EDT

[#5]

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51% is an alcohol thing (TABC), it has nothing to do with kids, in fact kids are not normally supposed to be allowed to be in 51% establishments.

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There is no law that prevents "kids" from 51% locations.

It IS 51%

Posted: 10/3/2017 10:01:31 PM EDT

[#6]

The Aquarium is at 2710 N Shoreline. There is a TABC licensee there, TSAA Beverage Services Association. License MB905490. They show a red gun sign, meaning they are 51%. You can buy at the counter and walk around the Aquarium. Since the licensee is a separate entity, only their sales are calculated for purposes of 51%.

No carry there.

Posted: 10/4/2017 9:19:14 AM EDT

[#7]

I went this past August when we took the MIL\FIL and I never saw any lawful signs that prohibited conceal carry. I carried the whole day no issue.

Posted: 10/4/2017 10:28:56 AM EDT

[#8]

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The Aquarium is at 2710 N Shoreline. There is a TABC licensee there, TSAA Beverage Services Association. License MB905490. They show a red gun sign, meaning they are 51%. You can buy at the counter and walk around the Aquarium. Since the licensee is a separate entity, only their sales are calculated for purposes of 51%.

No carry there.

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The OP stated they didn't sell alcohol... I guess that was mistaken.

In any case... that law or TABC rule really needs to be changed. If multiple entities operate in the same physical location all of the revenues should be added up to determine the 51% calculation. The way it works now is a real perversion of the process. By this logic if a restaurant had the bar as a separate legal entity they'd just automatically be 51% even if they did 90% of their business in food. In the case of the aquarium I am sure that despite the fact that I'm sure the drinks are grossly overpriced, the revenue from ticket sales, the snack bar and souvenier shop (I'm assuming that they have those things, the Austin Aquarium does) far exceed the alcohol sales.

Posted: 10/5/2017 2:17:09 PM EDT

[#9]

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If you have questions about whether a liquor licensee is a 51% establishment (sign RED) you can look them up on TABC's web site (it was kinda a PITA last time I did it, as I had to download a spreadsheet and search through it as I wasn't able to find the place I was looking for with the online search tool, but you may be more lucky).

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There's an app for that...

https://www.tabc.state.tx.us/mobile/index.asp

Posted: 10/5/2017 6:06:23 PM EDT

[#10]

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The OP stated they didn't sell alcohol... I guess that was mistaken.

In any case... that law or TABC rule really needs to be changed. If multiple entities operate in the same physical location all of the revenues should be added up to determine the 51% calculation. The way it works now is a real perversion of the process. By this logic if a restaurant had the bar as a separate legal entity they'd just automatically be 51% even if they did 90% of their business in food. In the case of the aquarium I am sure that despite the fact that I'm sure the drinks are grossly overpriced, the revenue from ticket sales, the snack bar and souvenier shop (I'm assuming that they have those things, the Austin Aquarium does) far exceed the alcohol sales.

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This thread was really odd when I saw it. I took my son there in August and never noticed any signs and definitely didn't notice any alcohol being sold there around the property or at the main concession area downstairs. I just went to the aquarium website and they have all their menus posted, there is no alcohol listed anywhere. I have a feeling this is a ploy by the aquarium and TABC. The concession contractor probably does concessions and sells alcohol at other venues besides the Aquarium.

Posted: 10/5/2017 8:12:04 PM EDT

[#11]

A ploy? Roflmao

Posted: 10/5/2017 11:18:44 PM EDT

[#12]

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A ploy? Roflmao

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I know you are the expert in all things here, so please explain why a place that doesn't actually sell alcohol has a 51% sign posted? There have been other reports I've seen here of people finding the wrong type or color signs posted on purpose.

Posted: 10/5/2017 11:24:13 PM EDT

[#13]

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I know you are the expert in all things here, so please explain why a place that doesn't actually sell alcohol has a 51% sign posted? There have been other reports I've seen here of people finding the wrong type or color signs posted on purpose.

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You think a state agency created a ploy with a business so you can't carry a handgun there. It is hilariously laughable.

TABC determined that they are 51%. There is a licensee there. They may only serve for special events, or perhaps those posting here didn't see the location of the alcohol sales.

Or maybe it is all a big conspiracy.

Lol

Posted: 10/6/2017 9:27:07 AM EDT

[#14]

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You think a state agency created a ploy with a business so you can't carry a handgun there. It is hilariously laughable.

TABC determined that they are 51%. There is a licensee there. They may only serve for special events, or perhaps those posting here didn't see the location of the alcohol sales.

Or maybe it is all a big conspiracy.

Lol

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I looked around the place for the alcohol, but didn't see anything. Maybe it's during evening social events? Some of these places close to the public after hours and host parties, etc.

Posted: 10/6/2017 11:21:10 AM EDT

[#15]

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I looked around the place for the alcohol, but didn't see anything. Maybe it's during evening social events? Some of these places close to the public after hours and host parties, etc.

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It very well could be. Unfortunately the law doesn't limit the 51% rules to times when the licensee is selling. I imagine the legislators didn't even consider that possibility when the law was crafted some two decades ago.

Posted: 10/6/2017 12:14:22 PM EDT

[#16]

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You think a state agency created a ploy with a business so you can't carry a handgun there. It is hilariously laughable.

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Quoted:

You think a state agency created a ploy with a business so you can't carry a handgun there. It is hilariously laughable.

Oh, yeah, that is pretty much tinfoil hat territory there... BUT... It is part of TABC's charter that their purpose is to discourage drinking in Texas. And to that end I do believe that they intentionally make the rules as byzantine and restrictive as they can get away with and that tends to result in loopholes like the one that is being exploited in this case.

TABC determined that they are 51%. There is a licensee there. They may only serve for special events, or perhaps those posting here didn't see the location of the alcohol sales.

Or maybe it is all a big conspiracy.

Lol

Which brings up another thing that should be changed... If sales are only occasional or only during certain hours then the 51% restriction should only apply when alcohol is being sold. That would make signage a little more inconvenient and confusing but it would be much more reasonable in it's restriction. Or even better, do away with the 51% restrictions entirely. There are a number of states which allow carry in bars and they haven't had a lot of issues. I see no reason that Texans are any less civilized or law abiding than the residents of hayseed states like Iowa.

Of course what really needs to be done is TABC should be sunset. The TABC code should be throw in the dust bin and Texas should adopt liquor laws similar to Louisiana. What functions of TABC are necessary after that (licensing mainly) should go to another agency like the Dept of Agriculture and any necessary law enforcement components should go to DPS. All of the silly and moronic labeling rules should just go away. Doing this would save taxpayers a lot of money.

Posted: 10/6/2017 4:19:00 PM EDT

[#17]

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Oh, yeah, that is pretty much tinfoil hat territory there... BUT... It is part of TABC's charter that their purpose is to discourage drinking in Texas. And to that end I do believe that they intentionally make the rules as byzantine and restrictive as they can get away with and that tends to result in loopholes like the one that is being exploited in this case.

Which brings up another thing that should be changed... If sales are only occasional or only during certain hours then the 51% restriction should only apply when alcohol is being sold. That would make signage a little more inconvenient and confusing but it would be much more reasonable in it's restriction. Or even better, do away with the 51% restrictions entirely. There are a number of states which allow carry in bars and they haven't had a lot of issues. I see no reason that Texans are any less civilized or law abiding than the residents of hayseed states like Iowa.

Of course what really needs to be done is TABC should be sunset. The TABC code should be throw in the dust bin and Texas should adopt liquor laws similar to Louisiana. What functions of TABC are necessary after that (licensing mainly) should go to another agency like the Dept of Agriculture and any necessary law enforcement components should go to DPS. All of the silly and moronic labeling rules should just go away. Doing this would save taxpayers a lot of money.

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Quoted:

Quoted:

You think a state agency created a ploy with a business so you can't carry a handgun there. It is hilariously laughable.

Oh, yeah, that is pretty much tinfoil hat territory there... BUT... It is part of TABC's charter that their purpose is to discourage drinking in Texas. And to that end I do believe that they intentionally make the rules as byzantine and restrictive as they can get away with and that tends to result in loopholes like the one that is being exploited in this case.

TABC determined that they are 51%. There is a licensee there. They may only serve for special events, or perhaps those posting here didn't see the location of the alcohol sales.

Or maybe it is all a big conspiracy.

Lol

Which brings up another thing that should be changed... If sales are only occasional or only during certain hours then the 51% restriction should only apply when alcohol is being sold. That would make signage a little more inconvenient and confusing but it would be much more reasonable in it's restriction. Or even better, do away with the 51% restrictions entirely. There are a number of states which allow carry in bars and they haven't had a lot of issues. I see no reason that Texans are any less civilized or law abiding than the residents of hayseed states like Iowa.

Of course what really needs to be done is TABC should be sunset. The TABC code should be throw in the dust bin and Texas should adopt liquor laws similar to Louisiana. What functions of TABC are necessary after that (licensing mainly) should go to another agency like the Dept of Agriculture and any necessary law enforcement components should go to DPS. All of the silly and moronic labeling rules should just go away. Doing this would save taxpayers a lot of money.

With the tactics the TABC used against Specs and a couple other retailers the TABC is not looking too good. When. The Wingstop opened in Cedar Park the TABC official came in and told them they needed the TABC signage since they sold beer for on premise consumption. Now they only had 2 shelves of beer in their cooler, and should have had normal TABC signage the official paniced the manager to putting up a 51% sign, instead of explaining exactly what signs are correctly needed.

Posted: 10/6/2017 6:03:34 PM EDT

[#18]

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The Aquarium is at 2710 N Shoreline. There is a TABC licensee there, TSAA Beverage Services Association. License MB905490. They show a red gun sign, meaning they are 51%. You can buy at the counter and walk around the Aquarium. Since the licensee is a separate entity, only their sales are calculated for purposes of 51%.

No carry there.

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The no carrying in bars thing really needs to be fixed.

Posted: 10/6/2017 7:43:58 PM EDT

[#19]

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The no carrying in bars thing really needs to be fixed.

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I don't disagree

Posted: 10/6/2017 7:46:10 PM EDT

[#20]

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With the tactics the TABC used against Specs and a couple other retailers the TABC is not looking too good. When. The Wingstop opened in Cedar Park the TABC official came in and told them they needed the TABC signage since they sold beer for on premise consumption. Now they only had 2 shelves of beer in their cooler, and should have had normal TABC signage the official paniced the manager to putting up a 51% sign, instead of explaining exactly what signs are correctly needed.

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If you sell for on or off premise consumption you must put up TABC signage, without regard for how many shelves of beer you stock. TABC tells the licensee, on the license, whether they should be 51% or not. It is clear and in writing.

Posted: 10/6/2017 8:50:12 PM EDT

[#21]

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A ploy? Roflmao

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Not a ploy, but certainly a strategy to get guns banned with major force of law, and being able to say, "nothing we can do, law is the law."

In other words, got a place you want no guns? Create a second business to serve alcohol and overlay the same location. Poof. instant 51% place even if they almost never are open to sell alcohol.

Posted: 10/6/2017 9:09:57 PM EDT

[#22]

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Not a ploy, but certainly a strategy to get guns banned with major force of law, and being able to say, "nothing we can do, law is the law."

In other words, got a place you want no guns? Create a second business to serve alcohol and overlay the same location. Poof. instant 51% place even if they almost never are open to sell alcohol.

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Apply for the license, public announcements, pay the fees, deal with TABC accounting and administrative rules, and all of the other BS that goes along with a license just to keep the tiny percentage of people with LTC's from carrying in the aquarium?

Sure

Posted: 10/6/2017 9:19:06 PM EDT

[#23]

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Apply for the license, public announcements, pay the fees, deal with TABC accounting and administrative rules, and all of the other BS that goes along with a license just to keep the tiny percentage of people with LTC's from carrying in the aquarium?

Sure

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And make a profit selling alcohol. Win Win. If only they could also add a MJ dispensary!

Ain't America great!

Posted: 10/7/2017 11:13:30 AM EDT

[#24]

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With the tactics the TABC used against Specs and a couple other retailers the TABC is not looking too good. When. The Wingstop opened in Cedar Park the TABC official came in and told them they needed the TABC signage since they sold beer for on premise consumption. Now they only had 2 shelves of beer in their cooler, and should have had normal TABC signage the official paniced the manager to putting up a 51% sign, instead of explaining exactly what signs are correctly needed.

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If their license is not "sign RED", then it is improper if they put up the 51% signs and they can be punished by TABC for doing so. They don't get to decide whether they are 51% or not, TABC does based on their sales receipts. If their gross sales is not 51% or more from alcohol they are "sign BLUE" and they need to post the "unlicensed..." signs.

You should check their license on the TABC web site and report them there if they have the wrong signs. From what I've heard in other cases normally TABC will come educate them on which signs they are required to post. Of course if TABC determined that they do make 51%+ of their revenue from alcohol sales then there isn't anything that can be done unless the laws get changed.

Posted: 10/7/2017 11:56:20 AM EDT

[#25]

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If their license is not "sign RED", then it is improper if they put up the 51% signs and they can be punished by TABC for doing so. They don't get to decide whether they are 51% or not, TABC does based on their sales receipts. If their gross sales is not 51% or more from alcohol they are "sign BLUE" and they need to post the "unlicensed..." signs.

You should check their license on the TABC web site and report them there if they have the wrong signs. From what I've heard in other cases normally TABC will come educate them on which signs they are required to post. Of course if TABC determined that they do make 51%+ of their revenue from alcohol sales then there isn't anything that can be done unless the laws get changed.

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Lol. Guess how I know you didn't read the thread?

;)

Posted: 10/7/2017 1:07:31 PM EDT

[#26]

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With the tactics the TABC used against Specs and a couple other retailers the TABC is not looking too good. When. The Wingstop opened in Cedar Park the TABC official came in and told them they needed the TABC signage since they sold beer for on premise consumption. Now they only had 2 shelves of beer in their cooler, and should have had normal TABC signage the official paniced the manager to putting up a 51% sign, instead of explaining exactly what signs are correctly needed.

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The Spec's case re-energized my opposition to TABC...

For those not familiar with the TABC debacle against Spec's...

https://www.texastribune.org/2017/06/30/texas-liquor-agency-rebuked-case-regulatory-overkill/

Note that the "Texas Tribune" is a heavily liberal slanted media outlet... and if they are taking sides against the government and actually quoting Governor Greg Abbott in a good light... that's gotta say something.

and this from the also left leaning Dallas Morning News...

https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/editorials/2017/07/05/specs-case-texas-liquor-regulators-pour-another-bitter-draft

And the Houston Chronicle ran basically the same story as Texas Tribune:

http://www.chron.com/news/politics/texas/article/Texas-liquor-agency-rebuked-after-investigation-11260279.php

And another take:

http://rare.us/local/houston/texas-alcohol-regulators-may-be-drunk-with-power-after-they-allegedly-abused-their-power-investigating-specs/

Here's some fallout from the case...

https://www.sacurrent.com/the-daily/archives/2017/07/07/two-more-tabc-officials-bite-the-dust

http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/texas-news/acting-director-of-texas-liquor-agency-abruptly-quits/455462267

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/texas/article/TABC-counsel-becomes-third-to-resign-amid-11266052.php

Here's an interesting article about TABC and Wal-Mart...

http://www.beveragelaw.com/booze-rules/2015/3/6/the-biggest-retailer-in-the-world-vs-tabc

The whole agency is rotten to the core and needs to be sunset and start over from scratch with regulations not born out of the prohibition era.

Posted: 10/7/2017 1:11:35 PM EDT

[#27]

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Lol. Guess how I know you didn't read the thread?

;)

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I did read it, what do you think I missed?

Posted: 10/7/2017 7:49:34 PM EDT

[#28]

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I did read it, what do you think I missed?

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The fact that the license issued to that location is listed in the thread, (even the license number) , and it is, in fact, a 51% location as determined by TABC.

Posted: 10/8/2017 1:41:46 AM EDT

[#29]

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The fact that the license issued to that location is listed in the thread, (even the license number) , and it is, in fact, a 51% location as determined by TABC.

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No, actually you missed something. The post you quoted was replying to Don's post about the Wingstop in Cedar Park... nobody posted the license for that location.

I respect your opinion sometimes but you can be annoyingly smug sometimes.

Posted: 10/8/2017 7:43:20 AM EDT

[#30]

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No, actually you missed something. The post you quoted was replying to Don's post about the Wingstop in Cedar Park... nobody posted the license for that location.

I respect your opinion sometimes but you can be annoyingly smug sometimes.

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No, actually you missed something. The post you quoted was replying to Don's post about the Wingstop in Cedar Park... nobody posted the license for that location.

I respect your opinion sometimes but you can be annoyingly smug sometimes.

I didn't quote ANYBODY when I wrote this; 7th post in this thread;

The Aquarium is at 2710 N Shoreline. There is a TABC licensee there, TSAA Beverage Services Association. License MB905490. They show a red gun sign, meaning they are 51%. You can buy at the counter and walk around the Aquarium. Since the licensee is a separate entity, only their sales are calculated for purposes of 51%.

No carry there.

Posted: 10/8/2017 12:00:39 PM EDT

[#31]

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I didn't quote ANYBODY when I wrote this; 7th post in this thread;

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Yeah, but that is totally irrelevant to what Don and I were talking about. We were talking about the Wingstop in Cedar Park... NOT the Aquarium. So you are the one who isn't reading. Get it now?

This is what I was responding to...

"Quoted:

With the tactics the TABC used against Specs and a couple other retailers the TABC is not looking too good. When. The Wingstop opened in Cedar Park the TABC official came in and told them they needed the TABC signage since they sold beer for on premise consumption. Now they only had 2 shelves of beer in their cooler, and should have had normal TABC signage the official paniced the manager to putting up a 51% sign, instead of explaining exactly what signs are correctly needed."

Note that you did NOT post Wingstop's license number, nor verify that they are 51%. So my advice to Don to check TABC's website to find out what Wingstop's license says was valid.

As I said before... I usually respect your opinion. But you can sometimes be insufferably arrogant. I'm really trying to be nice here. I am not sure if you care, but people around here would like you a lot more if you'd tone down your attitude a couple notches sometimes.

Posted: 10/8/2017 1:59:58 PM EDT

[#32]

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Yeah, but that is totally irrelevant to what Don and I were talking about. We were talking about the Wingstop in Cedar Park... NOT the Aquarium. So you are the one who isn't reading. Get it now?

This is what I was responding to...

"Quoted:

With the tactics the TABC used against Specs and a couple other retailers the TABC is not looking too good. When. The Wingstop opened in Cedar Park the TABC official came in and told them they needed the TABC signage since they sold beer for on premise consumption. Now they only had 2 shelves of beer in their cooler, and should have had normal TABC signage the official paniced the manager to putting up a 51% sign, instead of explaining exactly what signs are correctly needed."

Note that you did NOT post Wingstop's license number, nor verify that they are 51%. So my advice to Don to check TABC's website to find out what Wingstop's license says was valid.

As I said before... I usually respect your opinion. But you can sometimes be insufferably arrogant. I'm really trying to be nice here. I am not sure if you care, but people around here would like you a lot more if you'd tone down your attitude a couple notches sometimes.

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"People around here", means your argument is weak or nonexistent and you feel you need more people to justify yourself.

This thread is about the Aquarium. Get it now?

Posted: 10/8/2017 3:09:02 PM EDT

[#33]

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"People around here", means your argument is weak or nonexistent and you feel you need more people to justify yourself.

This thread is about the Aquarium. Get it now?

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The thread started about the Aquarium but Don took it somewhere else and my response to Don was relevant to his post. Sorry if you feel the need to be the "staying on thread police". But threads wander. So much for trying to be nice.