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Posted: 9/10/2010 7:44:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2010 8:04:59 PM EDT by Civis_Romanus_sum]
Last night on A&E's "The First 48" they confiscated a .223 AR-15 pistol similar to a Carbon 15-no buttstock, just a short recoil buffer tube. (you know what I'm talking about) A witness to the drug-related murder fired it (no hits) at the murderers who shot his business associate. But what caught my eye was that someone had attached an AR-15 pistol grip to the barrel (no handguards) with a clamp that appeared commercially made.

Will the attachment of such a pistol grip convert this from a "pistol" to a short barreled rifle or other NFA regulated firearm? Cops made no comment-they may not have even recognized what they were holding, which does not surprise me. When I saw them bring it out of the car and it fit into a small kitchen trash bag, my wife said I sat bolt upright in my chair. That was a pretty high tech and high dollar weapon for one our urban entrepreneurs.


EDIT: for more description
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 7:45:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Civis_Romanus_sum:
Last night on A&E's "The First 48" they confiscated an AR-15 pistol (you know what I'm talking about) A witness to the drug-related murder fired it (no hits) at the murderers who shot his business associate. But what caught my eye was that someone had attached an AR-15 pistol grip to the barrel (no handguards) with a clamp that appeared commercially made.

Will the attachment of such a pistol grip convert this from a "pistol" to a short barreled rifle?

PS: That was a pretty high tech and high dollar weapon for one our urban entrepreneurs.


pretty sure that would count as a vertical foregrip thus making it a AOW if it didn't have a stock.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 7:49:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Civis_Romanus_sum:
Last night on A&E's "The First 48" they confiscated an AR-15 pistol (you know what I'm talking about) A witness to the drug-related murder fired it (no hits) at the murderers who shot his business associate. But what caught my eye was that someone had attached an AR-15 pistol grip to the barrel (no handguards) with a clamp that appeared commercially made.

Will the attachment of such a pistol grip convert this from a "pistol" to a short barreled rifle?

PS: That was a pretty high tech and high dollar weapon for one our urban entrepreneurs.


It's not a rifle unless it also has a buttstock.

A handgun with a pistol grip attached as you describe would be considered an AOW (Any Other Weapon). AOW's are NFA firearms.
The reason the addition of the second grip makes it an AOW is because ATF considers a handgun a a firearm intended to be fired with one hand only.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 8:20:05 PM EDT
But a pistol is not necessarily a handgun.

There is a thread in GD and a thread in the Magpul forum where people are discussing the AFG on an AR Pistol.

IMO, I don't think anyone really knows for sure. Have there been any federal court cases about it?
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 9:00:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By LuckyDucky:
But a pistol is not necessarily a handgun.....


Says who?

Code of Federal Regulations
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&rgn=div5&view=text&node=27:3.0.1.2.3&idno=27#27:3.0.1.2.3.2.1.1
Handgun. (a) Any firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; and
(b) Any combination of parts from which a firearm described in paragraph (a) can be assembled.

Pistol. A weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).
Link Posted: 9/11/2010 5:39:59 AM EDT
I put a little JB weld in the buffer tube on my pistol build. I'm pretty sure that will be sufficient ......I hope
Link Posted: 9/11/2010 6:14:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/11/2010 6:20:37 AM EDT by LuckyDucky]

Originally Posted By DogtownTom:
Originally Posted By LuckyDucky:
But a pistol is not necessarily a handgun.....


Says who?

Code of Federal Regulations
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&rgn=div5&view=text&node=27:3.0.1.2.3&idno=27#27:3.0.1.2.3.2.1.1
Handgun. (a) Any firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; and
(b) Any combination of parts from which a firearm described in paragraph (a) can be assembled.

Pistol. A weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).

Have you noticed how those definitions aren't the same? That means they aren't the same! I know, I know, it's very difficult to understand.

Edit: As an example, it seems clear to me that the Ruger Charger was not designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand. That must mean it's an AOW right?
Link Posted: 9/11/2010 7:31:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/11/2010 7:33:38 AM EDT by Tboy]
Originally Posted By ARsR4ME:
I put a little JB weld in the buffer tube on my pistol build. I'm pretty sure that will be sufficient ......I hope
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y9/ARsR4ME/pistol003.jpg


How practical is your setup? Do you shoot often? If so, how do you like it? Did you build this for the purpose of current configuration or are you wanting to SBR? Just curious because I have a few SBR ARs that I don't think I could shoot like that.

ETA, looking closer it appears you have yet to shoot the thing (I hope) since you are missing something crucial.
Link Posted: 9/11/2010 7:43:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By LuckyDucky:

Originally Posted By DogtownTom:
Originally Posted By LuckyDucky:
But a pistol is not necessarily a handgun.....


Says who?

Code of Federal Regulations
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&rgn=div5&view=text&node=27:3.0.1.2.3&idno=27#27:3.0.1.2.3.2.1.1
Handgun. (a) Any firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; and
(b) Any combination of parts from which a firearm described in paragraph (a) can be assembled.

Pistol. A weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).

Have you noticed how those definitions aren't the same? That means they aren't the same! I know, I know, it's very difficult to understand.

Edit: As an example, it seems clear to me that the Ruger Charger was not designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand. That must mean it's an AOW right?


I know those two definitions are not exactly the same, they aren't supposed to be. And for me, they are very easy to understand.
Further, revolvers are also handguns and would meet the definition of "handgun", but not the definition of pistol.

You made the claim that "a pistol is not necessarily a handgun...". Well, that's just plain wrong. I would like to know what pistol does not meet the ATF definition of a handgun?

It doesn't matter if the handgun (pistol or revolver) is uncomfortable or difficult to hold while firing one handed. What matters is whether ATF Tech Branch believes it was DESIGNED for one handed use. Remove the bipod, and it possible to shoot the Ruger Charger a bit easier using one hand. Early on, there were folks that postulated the bipod made the charger an AOW because it offered a forward grip. Apparently ATF does not think so.

Link Posted: 9/11/2010 12:27:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Tboy:
Originally Posted By ARsR4ME:
I put a little JB weld in the buffer tube on my pistol build. I'm pretty sure that will be sufficient ......I hope
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y9/ARsR4ME/pistol003.jpg


How practical is your setup? Do you shoot often? If so, how do you like it? Did you build this for the purpose of current configuration or are you wanting to SBR? Just curious because I have a few SBR ARs that I don't think I could shoot like that.

ETA, looking closer it appears you have yet to shoot the thing (I hope) since you are missing something crucial.


Have not shot it yet but I did get a few steps closer today with some parts. I'll never SBR this one but maybe another one. I just wanted a pistol cause I've built several AR's but wanted something diff.
Link Posted: 9/11/2010 1:43:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DogtownTom:
Originally Posted By LuckyDucky:

Originally Posted By DogtownTom:
Originally Posted By LuckyDucky:
But a pistol is not necessarily a handgun.....


Says who?

Code of Federal Regulations
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&rgn=div5&view=text&node=27:3.0.1.2.3&idno=27#27:3.0.1.2.3.2.1.1
Handgun. (a) Any firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; and
(b) Any combination of parts from which a firearm described in paragraph (a) can be assembled.

Pistol. A weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).

Have you noticed how those definitions aren't the same? That means they aren't the same! I know, I know, it's very difficult to understand.

Edit: As an example, it seems clear to me that the Ruger Charger was not designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand. That must mean it's an AOW right?


I know those two definitions are not exactly the same, they aren't supposed to be. And for me, they are very easy to understand.
Further, revolvers are also handguns and would meet the definition of "handgun", but not the definition of pistol.

You made the claim that "a pistol is not necessarily a handgun...". Well, that's just plain wrong. I would like to know what pistol does not meet the ATF definition of a handgun?

It doesn't matter if the handgun (pistol or revolver) is uncomfortable or difficult to hold while firing one handed. What matters is whether ATF Tech Branch believes it was DESIGNED for one handed use. Remove the bipod, and it possible to shoot the Ruger Charger a bit easier using one hand. Early on, there were folks that postulated the bipod made the charger an AOW because it offered a forward grip. Apparently ATF does not think so.


Just because you can use a gun a certain way does not mean it was designed to be used that way...
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