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Posted: 3/14/2006 6:04:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/17/2006 1:27:24 PM EDT by WalkerTexasRanger]
At the range the past few weekends, a few of us have been discussing beginning having some informal matches out at ASC. Seems some folks are not interested in participating in the formal matches at Bayou or PSC, and we want to try to encourage more people to come and join us on a regular basis.

I know some of you are averse to ASC, but, well, there just are not other 200-600 yard ranges where we can do this, so our options are limited. ASC is also fairly centrally located, so travel is not too bad either.

First, all types of guns (that the range allows) are welcome. We will need to agree on some type of handicapping system for those with semis vs. those with bolt guns, and maybe those with factory guns vs. custom built guns etc. This will be a trial and error type thing, but I am sure we can agree on something that everybody participating can live with.

Now, anybody who golfs with their buddies knows there are always a few greenbacks on the table in every round. This is the idea here. A few bucks here and there in a friendly competition. All matches will be between 200-300, and for those who have qualified, at 600 as well.

Here are our ideas for the first couple of "matches:"

1. An egg shoot. Everybody puts $5 into the pot and gets one shot at the egg. Then, it is $1 per shot , maximum of $5 more, for each additional shot. First person to hit the egg, wins the pot. We would draw for shooting order. Kicker is, this is at 300 yards, and you get NO sighters or warm up shots. This will be the 1st match of the morning, and you cannot shoot your rifle earlier that day.

2. Traditional Benchrest match. Everybody puts $10 into the pot. You will shoot 5 - 5 shot groups. There will be an overall aggregate winner, as well as winners for each of the 5 targets. We will be shooting for group size. This match can be varied to shoot for score as well, just to do something different. These can easily be done at 200 and 300 yards, and you could have sighters before each target.

Would this interest anybody, does it sound fun? If so, we could at least give one a try over this weekend. I have eggs, and I have benchrest targets that I will provide for this purpose. I could see doing both matches in a morning, very easy. Start with the egg, then go shoot for groups. Based on the above, you would only have $20 or so bucks on the line, so not too painful if you don't win a thing. IMO, well worth the fun and fellowship.

Let me know what you think..
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 6:29:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/14/2006 6:32:59 PM EDT by Timanator]
I like the ideas of the proposed matches . So let me suggest some penalties/classification. Any help sorting out these rules will be appreciated.



Originally Posted By WalkerTexasRanger:




1. An egg shoot. Everybody puts $5 into the pot and gets one shot at the egg. Then, it is $1 per shot , maximum of $5 more, for each additional shot. First person to hit the egg, wins the pot. We would draw for shooting order. Kicker is, this is at 300 yards, and you get NO sighters or warm up shots. This will be the 1st match of the morning, and you cannot shoot your rifle earlier that day. You cannot shoot at the 300 yards with the rifle you intend to use for this event.


1. Any factory rifle with factory barrel that has a MSRP of under $1200 new (based on the price of an AR15 new from most stores, and does not include the cost of accessories in additional to the rifle that will improve it's accuracy) can have 5 shots for sight in before the match starts. Where all other rifles are not allowed sight in's. They will be shot as is(you can sight any rifles at the 200 if you so wish).

2. Any factory rifle as mentioned above will take 2 shots per turn rather than the 1 shot of the other rifles.

3. You will not be allowed to have a spotter to compensate for the shots(or make correction calls). You can discuss it with other in the match, but no spotting scope is allowed.

4. Any rifle with a muzzle brake or similar device will get to shoot every other turn(Since they can basicly spot while shooting). This rule applies to the under $1200 rifles.

5. Anyone firing more than the allowed shots per round will be disqualified and money not refunded.



2. Traditional Benchrest match. Everybody puts $10 into the pot. You will shoot 5 - 5 shot groups. There will be an overall aggregate winner, as well as winners for each of the 5 targets. We will be shooting for group size. This match can be varied to shoot for score as well, just to do something different. These can easily be done at 200 and 300 yards, and you could have sighters before each target.


1. Any rifle with factory barrel and costs under $1200 new takes no penalty.

2. All rifles with modifications for accuracy (Barrel, muzzle brake) will take a .25 MOA addition to the group size(Which is around .5 inch at 200 yards)

3. And custom match style rifles over $3000 new will tkae a .35 MOA addition.

4. Any custom match style rifles over $4500 will take a .5 MOA addition penalty.





Link Posted: 3/14/2006 7:07:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/14/2006 7:08:22 PM EDT by WalkerTexasRanger]
Tim,

Egg shoot - the sighters make the shoot completely unfair. Either everyone gets them or no one gets them. My vote would be no one, that is what makes it hard...

You obviously have to have either your come ups, or your rifle already sighted in at 300 for the shoot, but it is that days wind that makes it interesting. Give people sighters, you lose the difficulty.

I would never agree to a two for one, no matter the gun. Maybe 1 additional per each 5 shots at most. This is a wind reading competition, and should remain as such.

Concerning the spotting, not a factor. You are not shooting at paper, therefore, there will be nothing to spot. It will be an egg mounted on the target board. You will not know, until you hit the egg, where you are shooting. Again, this makes it difficult, not easy.

5 -5 Shoot - I would not agree to an MOA penalty. Maybe a factory class vs. custom class, and factory class gets to shoot 5 on target, but use the best 4 to count as their group.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 7:41:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WalkerTexasRanger:
Tim,

Egg shoot - the sighters make the shoot completely unfair. Either everyone gets them or no one gets them. My vote would be no one, that is what makes it hard...

You obviously have to have either your come ups, or your rifle already sighted in at 300 for the shoot, but it is that days wind that makes it interesting. Give people sighters, you lose the difficulty.

I would never agree to a two for one, no matter the gun. Maybe 1 additional per each 5 shots at most. This is a wind reading competition, and should remain as such.


Concerning the spotting, not a factor. You are not shooting at paper, therefore, there will be nothing to spot. It will be an egg mounted on the target board. You will not know, until you hit the egg, where you are shooting. Again, this makes it difficult, not easy.

I can go with the no sighters. But to have a heads up contest of a rifle that can shoot .25 MOA vs 1+(Which is a group 3"+ and bigger than the Egg already), there would have to be additional shots to even the play field. You would have to impose some kind of a way to even the odds for the guy that does not have a match setup. And as for reading wind, the heavier projectile are not affected by wind much at this distance.

Agreed on the Spotter.


5 -5 Shoot - I would not agree to an MOA penalty. Maybe a factory class vs. custom class, and factory class gets to shoot 5 on target, but use the best 4 to count as their group.

I dont see the separate class for the amount off guys we have in the group, but the best 4 may do the trick. What if someone brings in a rail gun or similar paper puncher?




Link Posted: 3/14/2006 7:52:12 PM EDT
If I came out to play does it mean I can't complain that ASC sux

OTT Great idea WalkerTexasRanger
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 8:32:34 PM EDT
High priced guns don't necessarily shoot any better.

Barrel profile, length, free float, etc matter as much as weight.

My 16" Bull Barreled upper is more accurate then I am, and it's a $650 dollar rifle ($714 retail).
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 8:38:08 PM EDT
Man, I am surprised to see some of you guys would think it would be ok for a straight up match of normal rifles vs Match guns.


But I'm game either way.

Link Posted: 3/14/2006 8:47:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/14/2006 8:48:33 PM EDT by Tonster]

Originally Posted By Timanator:
Man, I am surprised to see some of you guys would think it would be ok for a straight up match of normal rifles vs Match guns.


But I'm game either way.



Timanator,
I hear where you are coming from but where does it stop?
allowance for norma/match weapon...
allowance for who has a better scope (dropped or undropped).
allowance for surplus or match ammo...
allowance for sand bags....
What's next ?????
It's like when I used to race cars...you just "run what ya brung".
Someone will always have more $$$ than someone else to invest in the hobby they love.
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 3:58:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/15/2006 4:01:34 AM EDT by WalkerTexasRanger]

Originally Posted By Tonster:

It's like when I used to race cars...you just "run what ya brung".



Well, most matchas are really that way, there are just classes of rifles. Open sights or optics, 10.5 lb or 13 lbs. Complete factory guns or custom guns. But, we probably will not have enough folks to have classes like that, so I just dont want anyone to fee discouraged because they have only a out of the box Winchester Model 70 and are competing against someone with a Nesika custom action etc.

Normally, I would agree with Tonster. At any sanctioned long-range match, like those down at Bayou, that is exactly what happens, you shoot what you brought, no handicapping. At a pro golf event, there are no handicaps, but at the local course, when buddies with varying skills play, there is some adjustment required to keep everybody playing together and coming back.

I agree with Roughedge, most of the guns can shoot better than us anyway. Factory or custom...

Don't think that we wont remember if, Tim, for example is given some scoring help one week, and wins handly, that he will receive the same the next time. Handicaps change...

Borttom line, still just a reason to get together and shoot, none of this is set in stone, and we can change things up as we go. We can shoot the first few for no $$ just to see how it would work if that is what folks want. Braggin rights is fine with me, and maybe a good way to get things started to see how the handicapping thing shakes out.

I am thinking maybe we do these twice a month, once a month for sure, and we have no $$ on the line until the 3rd one?? I mean, it is only say $20 in total, but I would not want anybody to feel they got shortchanged and not come back to participate. This is all about fun!!
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 4:35:56 AM EDT
You know I am game for whatever.


I'm ready. Are you guys gonna show up?

Link Posted: 3/15/2006 5:04:42 AM EDT
I'd be interested, but it will be a few more weeks before I have the ammo situation worked out.
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 6:03:00 AM EDT
I agree that dividing into classes would be pretty tough for a small group, so maybe there can just be a semi-day, or bolt day. Hell milsurp day. I know most of the people going out there have a atleast a handfull of clubs to play with. I would even wager that there is atleast one type of rifle that each person ownes one of.

But at first, I say bring what ya got, hell bring a couple, and select what is fitting for an equal match with the others. If everyone is shooting low end stuff, leave the match gun in the truck and grab the paper weight.

The idea of starting out the competitions without the cash is good too. It will let the bugs get worked out before hurting someones feelings, or wallet. Besides if your playing for bragging rights, what good is it to whip the mossin shooters with some overpriced custom lead chucker. Hell I'm there for the loud noise, the cool hardware, and the BS'n. Besides you show up with a rail gun, and I 'll just have to show your ass up with two straws and a BB!! Here


Link Posted: 3/15/2006 6:55:20 AM EDT
The big question is..... WHEN DO WE START?!?!
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 12:53:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By snailrail:
The big question is..... WHEN DO WE START?!?!




This is another part that I thought needed to be worked on. Since some of us show up early(8ish) and some alot later12:-, I say maybe we do the match at 11 AM?

Link Posted: 3/15/2006 1:23:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/15/2006 1:25:20 PM EDT by WalkerTexasRanger]
.
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 1:24:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/15/2006 1:34:33 PM EDT by WalkerTexasRanger]
Well, if you are referring to date, we can start as soon as this weekend, either day is ok with me. I prefer Saturdays, but we could always pick the week prior, based on what the weather is looking like. Maybe we default to Saturdays, but if the weather looks better for Sun, we can always move them to Sunday??

I am thinking like, 1st and 3rd Saturdays of every month? So. we kind of plan on two a month, both on Saturdays, then like I said above, maybe move one here and there to a Sunday if we need to due to weather? Is this to many, should we do one a month? Do you think our turnout would be better if it was less frequent, or do you all think that if people like it, and get in the habit, more will show up consistantly?

If you are referring to the actual start times, I would say 9:00ish. Fewer people at the range, conditions are normally better between 9 and 11 then 11 and 1, and your afternoon is free for additional shooting, or other stuff.

If you start at 11:00, it will be more difficult to regulate the "no prior 300 yard shooting" for the Egg shoot. Which by the way, is what I was thinking about that. Maybe we let people get sighted in at 200 first, if they want, prior to moving to 300 for the Egg shoot. Just NO prior shots at 300 would be allowed.

Link Posted: 3/15/2006 5:55:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Timanator:

Originally Posted By snailrail:
The big question is..... WHEN DO WE START?!?!




This is another part that I thought needed to be worked on. Since some of us show up early(8ish) and some alot later12:-, I say maybe we do the match at 11 AM?



That makes it kind of hard to do a "no sighters" shoot.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 5:14:58 AM EDT
my .22 is unpredictable out to 300yds can we do it at 30?
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 8:14:37 AM EDT
What do ya'll think about an irons competition. An egg at 300 with irons is almost impossible, but a slightly larger target like a grapefruit would be a fun challenge.

I would also suggest getting away from the bench. You can sit and go prone on the 200 and 300 yard lines. I say ditch the sand bags, loose the benches and make it a "real-to-life" shoot!
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 10:33:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By snailrail:
What do ya'll think about an irons competition. An egg at 300 with irons is almost impossible, but a slightly larger target like a grapefruit would be a fun challenge.

I would also suggest getting away from the bench. You can sit and go prone on the 200 and 300 yard lines. I say ditch the sand bags, loose the benches and make it a "real-to-life" shoot!



2 more good ideas!!! So far we have 5 type "matches" we can have. I think maybe we could schedule two types on any given day? For example, an irons/grapefruit shoot and the 5 - 5, or the Egg shoot off the benches, then 300 prone in the 5 - 5 format.

Keeps things interesting!!

Link Posted: 3/16/2006 12:47:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By snailrail:
What do ya'll think about an irons competition. An egg at 300 with irons is almost impossible, but a slightly larger target like a grapefruit would be a fun challenge.

I would also suggest getting away from the bench. You can sit and go prone on the 200 and 300 yard lines. I say ditch the sand bags, loose the benches and make it a "real-to-life" shoot!




Great, now I gotta go buy a M40 with irons and a sniper mat.

Link Posted: 3/16/2006 5:02:28 PM EDT
damn irons. I can't see shit with irons.
Though I do have them for both of my AR's. It's just ammo.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 5:16:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RoughEdge:
damn irons. I can't see shit with irons.
Though I do have them for both of my AR's. It's just ammo.




Get glasses biotch!!!




Surprisingly how low of a response thi is generating. Well, as they say in UFC.


Lets Get It On!!!
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 8:40:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Timanator:

Originally Posted By RoughEdge:
damn irons. I can't see shit with irons.
Though I do have them for both of my AR's. It's just ammo.




Get glasses biotch!!!

how

Lets Get It On!!!


I got glasses bitch. Doesn't mean I have corrected to perfect vision.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 9:19:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RoughEdge:

I got glasses bitch. Doesn't mean I have corrected to perfect vision.




I was just playing.

So you guys coming out sat?

Link Posted: 3/17/2006 6:25:29 AM EDT
I have a cook-off Saturday. When is the next match?
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 8:58:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Timanator:

Originally Posted By RoughEdge:

I got glasses bitch. Doesn't mean I have corrected to perfect vision.




I was just playing.

So you guys coming out sat?

hr


Have a furnature delivery that morning. I was really hoping for Sunday. Damnit. I guess I can show up late.
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 10:33:32 AM EDT
I was thinking Sunday. Weather forecast looks better for Sun, so how about we try for then??

Actually, if it is at all decent both days, I will be going both Sat and Sun. I have to get some load development on my Grendel Benchrest rifle finished.

What's everybody think?????

Mark
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 11:22:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/17/2006 11:35:47 AM EDT by snailrail]
Sunday works for me. What time? We a normal wake up I can be there by 10. But I can always set an alarm.
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 12:51:11 PM EDT
It's better than sat for sure since tonight is St Patty's.


See yall at 10 AM sunday.

Link Posted: 3/17/2006 1:13:19 PM EDT
Ok - how about we say 1st match is at 10:00 on Sunday. So, you will want to arrive in time to get set up and be ready to go at 10:00 - 200 yard line to begin with.

I will decide later which two matches we will do. No $$ on this match as we are just going to work through the bumps.

Please RSVP here in the thread so I can be sure to take enough targets (in case we do a 5-5 match).



Link Posted: 3/17/2006 1:38:21 PM EDT
I'm down.

Link Posted: 3/17/2006 1:39:42 PM EDT
I may be able to make it breifly
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 2:35:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SC-Texas:
I may be able to make it breifly



Does that mean you are going to need to prepare some sort of legal brief related to the match???
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 6:28:02 PM EDT
Just to make sure we have an agreement on the rules.


We are allowed to sight in at the 100 or 200 right? I had to take off the scope earlier and will be sighting it in that day.

Link Posted: 3/17/2006 7:04:51 PM EDT
I should be there, if the weather doesn't suck.
I'm not in the mood to suffer through a soaking though.
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 8:00:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Timanator:
Just to make sure we have an agreement on the rules.


We are allowed to sight in at the 100 or 200 right? I had to take off the scope earlier and will be sighting it in that day.




Yep. Just no prior shooting at 300 if we do the egg shoot...
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 10:09:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WalkerTexasRanger:

Originally Posted By Timanator:
Just to make sure we have an agreement on the rules.


We are allowed to sight in at the 100 or 200 right? I had to take off the scope earlier and will be sighting it in that day.




Yep. Just no prior shooting at 300 if we do the egg shoot...




Bring cash suckers.


Link Posted: 3/18/2006 1:55:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/18/2006 1:55:47 PM EDT by WalkerTexasRanger]
Ok, how about these to get us started:

10:00 - 300 yard line - Egg shoot.

Next, still at 300, shoot a 5-5 F-class style (5 shot groups, 5 targets 25 rounds total).

I will bring the 5-5 targets, somebody else needs to bring the eggs.

Rules for the Egg shoot are:
No shooting at 300 yards prior to the match.
No sighters - show up and shoot.
This will be off the bench.
Any rifles ok.

Rules for the 5-5 are:
This will be shot f-class style - laying down with a bi-pod or rests.
There will be 5 minutes per target, maximum. Everybody will shoot at the same time.
You get unlimited sighters, but no spotter allowed.
This 5-5 will be score based - total score for each target, and for the aggregate.
Any rifles ok.

The Egg Shoot starts right at 10:00, so try to be there and ready to shoot at 10:00.

If it is raining Sunday AM, I will be sleeping and will see you guys next week....

How does this sound????



Link Posted: 3/18/2006 3:12:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By photokirk:
I have a cook-off Saturday. When is the next match?



19th is Sunday buy a calender!!
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 3:27:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By drop_zone:

Originally Posted By photokirk:
I have a cook-off Saturday. When is the next match?



19th is Sunday buy a calender!!



Just got home from the cookoff:

1st place ribs, 2nd place brisket, 3rd place chicken, reserve grand champion, I think I'll stay home and relax on Sunday.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 3:54:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By photokirk: I think I'll stay home and relax on Sunday.


Translation: "I am scared"

just kiddin - hope you make it to the next one!!
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 5:04:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WalkerTexasRanger:

Originally Posted By photokirk: I think I'll stay home and relax on Sunday.


Translation: "I am scared"

just kiddin - hope you make it to the next one!!



Dude, I think my eyelids are sunburned. I didn't feel like loading up the canopy at 4am, so I was in the sun all day. Tomorrow will be pretty low-key.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 5:28:11 PM EDT
I'll be there... how many eggs do you need??

Link Posted: 3/18/2006 5:55:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stan4231:
I'll be there... how many eggs do you need??




Great!! 2 or 3 eggs should be plenty. We may want to shoot a couple, and who knows, somebody could get lucky and hit it the first shot...

I drive a gold lexus, & Tim drives a black mustang, just look for those...

See you then!!
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 7:35:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WalkerTexasRanger:
Ok, how about these to get us started:

10:00 - 300 yard line - Egg shoot.

Next, still at 300, shoot a 5-5 F-class style (5 shot groups, 5 targets 25 rounds total).

I will bring the 5-5 targets, somebody else needs to bring the eggs.

Rules for the Egg shoot are:
No shooting at 300 yards prior to the match.
No sighters - show up and shoot.
This will be off the bench.
Any rifles ok.

Rules for the 5-5 are:
This will be shot f-class style - laying down with a bi-pod or rests.
There will be 5 minutes per target, maximum. Everybody will shoot at the same time.
You get unlimited sighters, but no spotter allowed.
This 5-5 will be score based - total score for each target, and for the aggregate.
Any rifles ok.

The Egg Shoot starts right at 10:00, so try to be there and ready to shoot at 10:00.

If it is raining Sunday AM, I will be sleeping and will see you guys next week....

How does this sound????







Sounds good. Weather forcast looks menacing.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 4:01:22 AM EDT
What do you guys think - does not look too great :

"Scattered thunderstorms in the morning, then partly cloudy late. High 78F. Winds SW at 10 to 20 mph. Chance of rain 60%."


Link Posted: 3/19/2006 4:31:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/19/2006 4:33:24 AM EDT by Stan4231]
Radar does not look that bad... might be a wind factor?? weather channel show 30% until later this afternoon..

http://www.weather.com/weather/map/77077?from=36hour_map_large
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 4:34:00 AM EDT
I'm going to go ahead and give it a go.

If you guys make it, great, if not, we will do it next week if possible.

MarK
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 6:50:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By WalkerTexasRanger:
I'm going to go ahead and give it a go.

If you guys make it, great, if not, we will do it next week if possible.

MarK




Wet a hell here, gonna go back to bed.

Link Posted: 3/19/2006 11:22:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/19/2006 11:40:33 AM EDT by WalkerTexasRanger]
Not a drop of rain at ASC - a bit of wind, but not too bad. All in all, good day to shoot.

Only negative was nobody else showed up....

BTW - found out the 200-600 yard ranges will be closed from 3/27-4/4 for the Browning/Briley World Open.

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