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Posted: 2/11/2006 8:27:08 PM EDT
Three thugs decided to be jackasses to us (GF, 2 kids in car). She chanded lanes in front of them...safely. They speed up, act like they are going to hit us, and followed us into her mom's neighbor hood. I asked her to pull over, and they stopped behind us and got out. I got out and drew down on them in fear for my family. They got back in the car, and talked some shit and drove off.

Was I justified, or did I just loose it? I feel shitty for it 'cause they were prolly 18-21 years old, but you never know what they might do....

Thoughts?
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 8:31:54 PM EDT
Probably a bad idea and it is in total violation BUT, I am not going to say I have not done it either.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 8:42:17 PM EDT
I bet the tough guys did'nt expect that. Hopefully that is the last time they try somthing like that. You just don't mess with a man's family. He will defend it.

Pete
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 9:12:13 PM EDT
Your lucky to be alive!!!!!!!! You don't pull your weapon unless you are going to shoot. Think about it.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 10:44:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/11/2006 10:47:49 PM EDT by eklikwhoa]
what if they had the same intentions? 3 firearms drawn on one would have been shitty.



i would have drove to a shopping mall or grocery store and made it look like i was going shopping, people would have seen the thugs, i scream " leave us alone", witnesses turn to see that me and my family was being harrassed and........ POW!
self defense in fear of life of oneself and loved ones.


but since you just stopped the car in front of nowhere which could have beed these guy's "crib" with neighbors that never witnessed these guys do any wrong and pulled the gun on them you have become the "bad guy"


what i do in that case is usually slow down so that the other car can pass and just smile
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 1:46:52 AM EDT
You were a little premature in breaking leather. Had you made it you your GF's moms house and they did the same thing, assuming they(meaning two or more) were threatening physical violence. I would have broke leather too. IMHO 1-1 is a fair fight, 2-1 is not and makes it difficult to protect your family.

Link Posted: 2/12/2006 2:17:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By soowah:
You were a little premature in breaking leather. Had you made it you your GF's moms house and they did the same thing, assuming they(meaning two or more) were threatening physical violence. I would have broke leather too. IMHO 1-1 is a fair fight, 2-1 is not and makes it difficult to protect your family.




+1

1-on-1 fight
1-on-2 fight real good
1-on-3 draw down................. if family is present
1-on-4 fire into ground......... make sure extra mag is handy
1-on-5 two guns................... one in each hand

j/k
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 5:29:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/12/2006 5:30:38 AM EDT by FALARAK]

Originally Posted By IndOperator1:
Three thugs decided to be jackasses to us (GF, 2 kids in car). She chanded lanes in front of them...safely. They speed up, act like they are going to hit us, and followed us into her mom's neighbor hood. I asked her to pull over, and they stopped behind us and got out. I got out and drew down on them in fear for my family. They got back in the car, and talked some shit and drove off.

Was I justified, or did I just loose it? I feel shitty for it 'cause they were prolly 18-21 years old, but you never know what they might do....

Thoughts?



Totally premature, and you might have broken the law. I understand you have to proetect yourself..... but *you* engaged *them*. Stopping, getting out, and drawing was an offensive action, not defensive, unless you were doing it because they were ramming your car or directly endagering your lives on the road. When a reasonable person could/would flee, you must.

You should have called the police. If there is an altercation, having that call on record will help your case... as the victim, not as the "crazy gun carrying citizen, looking for a fight" If you called the police, and informed them of the situation, and then informed them you are a CHL and are armed.... they will be there QUICK.

It is smart not to go directly to your residence, because they will have you marked then. I would just call the police, and keep driving until they got there.

IF while stopped anywhere, they did exit their vehicle, I would attempt to flee the area immediately. If that is not possible at the moment, then I would exit, shout at them, telling them to STOP, I AM ARMED, do NOT come any closer. If they continue to come towards me, then I would draw.... and pray they didnt start shooting up my vehicle with my family in there.

Best thing to do is get the F away.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 6:09:26 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 6:39:13 AM EDT
Driving to a public place would have been the better option; the nearest police or fire station is a real good choice.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 8:46:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By COZ_45:
I rarely hit the horn and usually just think "Ain't no use getting mad, it will probably just happen again" when someone does something stupid.



Good advice, I was traveling to pick up dinner one night at work (I was dispatcher then and not in marked unit, but my personal car) As I approach an intersection on green, this car comes down the hill on intersecting street, runs the red light and damn near hits me....I hit the horn LITERALY...the damn thing broke and I drove the rest of the way to Whataburger with the horn blairing....had to pull the fuse to shut it off! Still doesn't work and that was 3-4 years ago! I need to find one of those bumper stickers "Horn Don't Work....Watch for finger!" Allison
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 8:50:08 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 9:11:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By FALARAK:

Best thing to do is get the F away.

Amen.

Eric The(GetDownTheRoad)Hun
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 9:27:08 AM EDT
I appreciate the comments, but you have to know/remember three things:

1. I said that I lost it and I did.
2. I have had thousands of hours of training in this scenario and countless others.
3. I am a professional operator with years of tier 1 operations and protection details.

I challenge myself to think prior to action, but for those of you who have never been in any situation that involved the trade of fire; you cannot comment here due to the fact that regardless of how you say you "would" react, you do not know and can't. I know what to react to, and how to react up to and including the distribution of rounds. For all of you who are discussing a fair gunfight: I carry 10+1, plus 3 spares; I am not running out of ammunition. This is just proving a point that we can all bullshit about what we would do, but thousands of hours of training, and countless operations did not prepare me for this first time that I have drawn my weapon on US soil in defense of people that I love.

In retorspect I would have done a few things differently, and it prpbably would not have involved the creation of corpses, or to have even drawn my weapon; I fucking know damn well better. Did I violate the law...yes probably, do I care...no.

Where are the peoples' comments that know what I am?
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 9:47:51 AM EDT
> "... followed us into her mom's neighbor hood. I asked her to pull over,"

It's good that you didn't go home.

I wouldn't want those cretins aware of where I lived.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 10:00:26 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 10:10:31 AM EDT
From your description of the incident, for all they knew, you could have been pulling over at your residence. For them to pull over behind you and get out after the incident is a threatening gesture although I think the suggestion to first call LEO is a good one. But the possibility of the same type of encounter exists if LEO did not arrive timely. Probably a verbal warning first as was also suggested and then show ability to use force if needed. I think it would be difficult to know how you would react until this actually happens regardless of training.

WKM
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 10:34:13 AM EDT
With all due respect....this situation is previsely the time to drive to the nearest police station.

That's all.

If they want a fight, let's see just how serious they are.

Eric The(MaybeADunkinDoughnuts,IfIt'sCloser)Hun
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 10:39:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mojo:

IndOperator1....No offense...You posted you and your family's incident and asked for 'thoughts'....We posted what we think, regardless of your background. Sure, unless the situation presents itself, one won't know exactly how to act....but reading and learning from other's experiences and some trainings would at least us some ideas how to react in this situation.

What do you expect us to say? If a member posts it here with the same scenario and asks for 'thought', what's your response?



None taken. I respect your thoughts. I would recommend the same as those here have most likely. Just seems strange to be on this side here in the US. I also meant no offense.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 10:40:26 AM EDT

this situation is previsely the time to drive to the nearest police station.




Yep, definetly do not go home or stop in the middle of no where. I tell my students that a well lighted place is ok, but not ideal. Often the police station is hard to get to or they don't know where one is. I tell them your local fire station is a great place to go to. Pull in and start laying on the horn.

You may be experienced but I do not see you mentioning a cell phone. The cell phone is my primary defensive weapon. Call 911, let someone paid to handle the situation deal with it. No lawsuits, no arrests, no lawyer hassles (no offense ETH ).
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 10:49:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/12/2006 10:54:24 AM EDT by DevL]
Yep you lost it. They did nothing legally wrong by being assholes. You on the other hand could have been killed by them and would have been a no bill as you put thier lives in danger. They can follow you and walk up to you and tell you you are a shitty driver or whatever. I had a guy get out of his car and walk back to my car at a light and start talking smack. I just smiled at the guy and as he got to close I propped my door open so I would not get trapped i the car. When he mentioned shooting his "pistol shotgun" (he had a strong african accent so it was hard to understand him) over the shoulder and blowing my head off from inside his car if he got back in I pulled the pistol from under the seat and put it in my lap and smiled at him. I think he figured I just got a gun and he got back in the car. You must have a cool head. I would never pull a pistol unless I was shooting someone.

Also keep in mind they could have called 911 and you would have been hard pressed to explain your actions to the police. Had they been video taping the incident in hopes of beating you up or vandalizing your car but did not get to or say it on the tape you would be in jail with a criminal record.

On the other hand had you pulled out an AR to relocate it to the trunk you were not intentionally failing to conceal... you would have just been relocating the rifle to the trunk.

Is this the same girlfriend who does is liberal and does not even like guns? I bet she likes em even more now... lol!
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 11:15:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By IndOperator1:
Three thugs decided to be jackasses to us (GF, 2 kids in car). She chanded lanes in front of them...safely. They speed up, act like they are going to hit us, and followed us into her mom's neighbor hood. I asked her to pull over, and they stopped behind us and got out. I got out and drew down on them in fear for my family. They got back in the car, and talked some shit and drove off.

Was I justified, or did I just loose it? I feel shitty for it 'cause they were prolly 18-21 years old, but you never know what they might do....

Thoughts?



The main problem is not whether you would be convicted if it went bad or if it would be ruled justified. The biggest issue is your girlfriend and her two kids.

Had they all been armed, you likely would have lost the match. That was your choice to do. What about your girlfriend and her two kids though? Although I will surely defend my family if the need arises, I will also avoid all confrontations when I am with them simple because it puts them in the line of fire. They have also now become witnesses, tragic enough, but what if the thugs want to eliminate the witnesses.

In these types of situations, it is time to drive or walk away. Let them have their jollies, as long as my family is safe. They will get theirs eventually.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 11:51:20 AM EDT
Good comments from all.

IndOperator1, I'll add mine also:

Yes, I agree with you that you "lost it" and were premature to go to Condition Orange. IN MY OPINION, this was a Condition Yellow situation. The law clearly states that you or yours must, based on a reasonable persons perspective, be in immediate danger of bodily injury or death.

For the purposes of discussion, I'd like to hear from you WHY you think this specific situation made you lose a sense of good judgement? You must face idiots on the road on a weekly basis, right? So why did THIS situation really get to your ego?

This would be a good thought process to go through to better analyize the situation.

Thoughts?

CMOS
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 11:55:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Allison:
....I hit the horn LITERALY...the damn thing broke and I drove the rest of the way to Whataburger with the horn blairing....had to pull the fuse to shut it off! Still doesn't work and that was 3-4 years ago! I need to find one of those bumper stickers "Horn Don't Work....Watch for finger!" Allison




How do you pass your annual safety inspection?

Glad it worked out OK for you, IndOperator1....stay cool.

Link Posted: 2/12/2006 12:24:50 PM EDT
lots of info on this thread. but i can't agree with most of it.
i understand where your coming from.

Let’s step back 150 years and look at it again. Your in your wagon with the missus and the children and you have been to town. On the way out of town you have a run in with some cowboys and as a result they are following you. you descended to head back to the homestead and they continue to go out of their way to follow you. they pretend to ram you and use their horses aggressively. You know you can’t lead them back to your farm because they will know where you live, they may come back and burn it down or any number of other horrible things. So you select a place to make your stand. You dismount the wagon as it comes to a stop and when they stop they dismount and begin moving toward you. so you do the only sensible thing. You draw your weapon and stop them from doing harm to your family. Would you be justified in shooting them?

They have proven they wish to intimidate and scare you by almost ramming you. they out number you three to one and that alone is cause to find a solution to the problem. You know you can’t go home maybe you can flash down a cop or drive to a police substation but with the missus driving you can’t make a run for it.

What would a reasonable person do? Sounds like they got an education and you didn’t have to clean your gun. Did you loose it? your cool? your temper? Maybe… your family? Nope. You still got them and the punks got an education. Maybe they will learn from it.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 12:39:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/12/2006 6:20:49 PM EDT by GETSUM]

Originally Posted By IndOperator1:
I appreciate the comments, but you have to know/remember three things:

1. I said that I lost it and I did.
2. I have had thousands of hours of training in this scenario and countless others.
3. I am a professional operator with years of tier 1 operations and protection details.

I challenge myself to think prior to action, but for those of you who have never been in any situation that involved the trade of fire; you cannot comment here due to the fact that regardless of how you say you "would" react, you do not know and can't. I know what to react to, and how to react up to and including the distribution of rounds.
This is just proving a point that we can all bullshit about what we would do, but thousands of hours of training, and countless operations did not prepare me for this first time that I have drawn my weapon on US soil in defense of people that I love.

In retorspect I would have done a few things differently, and it prpbably would not have involved the creation of corpses, or to have even drawn my weapon; I fucking know damn well better. Did I violate the law...yes probably, do I care...no.

Where are the peoples' comments that know what I am?



Well- You asked for it ---

HERE I AM - I know who you are , been there, done that.



I have gone through this situation MANY TIMES - IN MY HEAD for this EXACT REASON.........

I hear what you are saying - and if all is correct in your resume that you listed above -
I have the experiences and training that you talk about - under my belt.

I too believe what you did was hasty and in doing so put your Children in a potentially dangerous situation. "Who cares about the GF - The children are your 1st thought.

I believe that you let your emotions get the best of you.

What you listed above would put you on a different level and the courts would be HARDER on you, not easier on you - due to your training and experience.

As an experienced operator - You need to constantly play senarious over and over in your head so that you make better decisions.

(In a situation like this - the very first thing through your mind should be SAFETY of CHILDREN)
- Not I'm a tough guy - Don't mess with me - I ain't gonna take it.


This is the FIRST thing I thought when I read your statement above ------>

The training and the units that you are/were in should have had a selection process "If they are truly Tier 1 units" - Thus they try very hard to weed out all of the HOT HEAD, HERO, RAMBO types.
They are looking for looking for PROFESSIONALS.

People that can and will keep there head in this and worse situations.
Much of the time and money that was spent on you was so that you would not act/respond this way in a stressful life/death situation.

Think about what you did - Was it Professional or Rambo ????

The first thing that pops in my mind is - "My Wife's & child's safety"
1- I get the f out of there.
2- You are not on the battlefiled - You are not thinking about your buddies and your life -
--------Safety for your GF/ CHILDREN - IS PARAMOUNT.....
3- If it does come to confrontation, I tell them ---> the GF/WIFE/KIDS to get the HELL OUT OF DODGE- so that the children are safe. Buy only once I am in abetter situation, not on a side street. "bad move" Need to go somewhere in public
4- Military training is not always the best for real-life urban situations.

----------READ HERE------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now don't take what I have said as a personal attack - You asked for an opinion from someone with your experience - YOU GOT IT.
----------READ HERE------------------------------------------------------------------------

LEARN FROM THIS so that you are able to do the right thing in the future and not put your CHILDREN in a situation like that.

"Remember the 7 Ps of tactial proficiency"
Prior
Proper
Planning
Prevents
Piss
Poor
Performance


SEMPER FI BROTHER -
Take care of those kids.



Link Posted: 2/12/2006 1:08:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CMOS:
So why did THIS situation really get to your ego?
CMOS



Great Point!!! It did get to me, buy why so much? Easy answer: I fucked up with my family. The decision was concise, but incorrect.

GETSUM:

Comments are most appreciated and I agree! This situation was not an operation where I would have been icey - as you know this is the only way to stay alive out there.

Many things complicated this issue in my mind. Stress from outside sources other than the situation have eaten away at me recently and I have not been my normal self. This coupled with the situation of concern here created a nightmare emotion...Rage.

HK - You know that I agree with you.

ALL:

Thanks for the input. I am going to go hug my GF and kids, and move on. Mistakes are going to be made, I just didn't expect this from me...I know damn well better.

IO1
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 3:16:52 PM EDT
if you are a CHL holder, you have a LEGAL DUTY TO RETREAT


that is all
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 4:14:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By supersix4:
if you are a CHL holder, you have a LEGAL DUTY TO RETREAT





I disagree with that.

The penal code is very specific in that a person may use deadly force "if the actor reasonably believes" their life or limb is in danger. There is no requirement to retreat.

CMOS
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 6:25:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/12/2006 6:28:00 PM EDT by GETSUM]



GETSUM:

Comments are most appreciated and I agree! This situation was not an operation where I would have been icey - as you know this is the only way to stay alive out there.

Many things complicated this issue in my mind. Stress from outside sources other than the situation have eaten away at me recently and I have not been my normal self. This coupled with the situation of concern here created a nightmare emotion...Rage.
IO1



Speak to someone in your unit -
There are people out there to help you with transition back into the civilian world...

Do not hold it in - it does not go away.
I have been out for a while and I still have bouts of depression that I fight with.
Time heals - but there are still scars.........................................................................

Backinthe WWII or VIETNAM era - guys that they had to hold that BS in - NOW - the military does everything it can to help its warriors .

LOOK and find someone to sepak with.

You were in which branch "prior" --the ARMY/NAVY/AF/ or are you a MARINE ??

If you are a Devil Dog --- let me know - I can point you in the right direction.


You in DALLAS ?
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 6:41:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CMOS:

Originally Posted By supersix4:
if you are a CHL holder, you have a LEGAL DUTY TO RETREAT





I disagree with that.

The penal code is very specific in that a person may use deadly force "if the actor reasonably believes" their life or limb is in danger. There is no requirement to retreat.

CMOS




As I was taught several years ago, it was force = force. If say, the other party was shouting obsenities at you, you could not 'break leather'. And in fact, as a CHL holder you were obliged to de-escalate the situation by, as stated earlier, get outa Dodge, or other means to calm the situation down.
Now if they presented deadly force, you could respond in kind.
In the situation as the thread originator related, it would seem to me that he escalated the 'conflict' by stopping the car, exiting the vehicle, and drawing his weapon. Now some might think that he resolved the conflict by getting the jump on the thugs, but I think, legally he would be aggressor. And with him being in that position the thugs could claim any number of 'reasons' they were following IndOperator1, and officer he just pulled a gun on us and we got scared!!!

IMHO he should have taken the 'long road'. Any of the scenarios stated in the previous posts about driving to the mall, calling 911, etc would go towards proving that he was minding his business and was being harassed.

I think it sux that an upstanding citzen has to go to all of these efforts to prove that he is the victim. I would like a law change similar to the new law in FL.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 6:53:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CMOS:

Originally Posted By supersix4:
if you are a CHL holder, you have a LEGAL DUTY TO RETREAT





I disagree with that.

The penal code is very specific in that a person may use deadly force "if the actor reasonably believes" their life or limb is in danger. There is no requirement to retreat.

CMOS



Texas Penal Code
§ 9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON. (a) A person is justified in using deadly force against another:

(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.31;

(2) if a reasonable person in the actor's situation would not have retreated; and

(3) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:

(A) to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force; or
(B) to prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.

In the Texas PC, retreating is mentioned and required if a reasonable person would have done so. You can beat up "reasonable" all you want because it comes down to a judge or jury. The fact does exist that the Texas Penal Code requires retreating if it is reasonable.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 7:04:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/12/2006 7:07:41 PM EDT by MauserMark]
you're a much braver man than I am. And before everyone posted criticisms I honestly didn't feel you were that out of line in doing what you did. Also what if you had run out of gas trying to ditch them? What if any place you pulled into they cornered you. It just reminds me I need to put a rifle back in my car because of situations like this.

glad you're okay, I know you're 10 times more trained in this stuff than a lot of us, me especially, so I give you the benefit of the doubt.

in this case, they were lucky, next time they may not be, and their worthlessness will dig their own graves.

they're what I like to call "contributors to society."

The only thing I've come close to is when one time I was coming out of my sister-in-laws "ghetto" neighborhood. My wife is Mexican, and so you can guess who lives in her sister's neighborhood. Well, me driving in with a nice SUV and my wife on a regular basis I guess can get to them. One day I had dropped her off and was leaving, I happened to be stopped by some drunk (I would assume, since that's about all they do) older dipshit and his sons or friends I guess telling me something in spanish and then telling me to get the fuck out of my car. I thought for a second how I can escape this situation, and 2 if I'm cornered how I can defend myself. All I had was my trunk gun, a mosin nagant carbine locked and loaded.
needless to say it would of been loud and messy, but I backed up and took another way home. I was so livid, but I think my rational won over my tough guy attitude.

in any event, I'm glad you and your family made it out safe.

-mark
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 8:00:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By IndOperator1:
I appreciate the comments, but you have to know/remember three things:

1. I said that I lost it and I did.
2. I have had thousands of hours of training in this scenario and countless others.
3. I am a professional operator with years of tier 1 operations and protection details.

I challenge myself to think prior to action, but for those of you who have never been in any situation that involved the trade of fire; you cannot comment here due to the fact that regardless of how you say you "would" react, you do not know and can't. I know what to react to, and how to react up to and including the distribution of rounds. For all of you who are discussing a fair gunfight: I carry 10+1, plus 3 spares; I am not running out of ammunition. This is just proving a point that we can all bullshit about what we would do, but thousands of hours of training, and countless operations did not prepare me for this first time that I have drawn my weapon on US soil in defense of people that I love.

In retorspect I would have done a few things differently, and it prpbably would not have involved the creation of corpses, or to have even drawn my weapon; I fucking know damn well better. Did I violate the law...yes probably, do I care...no.

Where are the peoples' comments that know what I am?




This is the difference. Your training and mindset are for another world. Not this one. In THAT world, you get a medal for your quick thinking, saving lives. In THIS world, you go to jail.

You have to seperate the two.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 8:03:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By hk940:
lots of info on this thread. but i can't agree with most of it.
i understand where your coming from.

Let’s step back 150 years and look at it again.




Sorry buddy. We have to live in REALITY..... like it or not. It is rare I disagree with you... but I have no clue what your point is, relevant to this situation, in 2006.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 8:06:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CMOS:

Originally Posted By supersix4:
if you are a CHL holder, you have a LEGAL DUTY TO RETREAT





I disagree with that.

The penal code is very specific in that a person may use deadly force "if the actor reasonably believes" their life or limb is in danger. There is no requirement to retreat.

CMOS



There is no "requirement" to retreat.... that much is true. However, if a reasonable person, given the *totallity* of the circumstances, would have/could have retreated, and you didnt, then you are fucked, buddy.

(in other words, you are incorrect. Believing your life or limb is in danger is NOT enough. Read the statutes.)
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 8:35:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/12/2006 8:51:20 PM EDT by wise_jake]

Originally Posted By COZ_45:
I remember these words well from my instructor at CHL class

"Road rage? Well, don't EVER start a fight, because as a carrier of a handgun, you can sure as hell finish one, and that is what will count in a trial. Lay off the horn, be more tolerant of others, don't fly off the handle"

I rarely hit the horn and usually just think "Ain't no use getting mad, it will probably just happen again" when someone does something stupid.

I drive 50 - 75000 miles a year.


Great advice, COZ (you, too, FALARAK). About the horn..... I don't even know where the horn is on either of our vehicles.

Last time someone did something uber-stupid, I instinctively yelled "Watch out, you stupid motherfucker!" Then, remembering they couldn't hear me with each vehicle's windows down, I fumbled for the horn. By the time I remembered it wasn't in the center of the steering wheel, the moment had passed.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 9:57:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/12/2006 9:59:04 PM EDT by SC-Texas]
My thoughts:
1. Never ever lead them back to the home neighborhood

2. shoulds have found a cop shop and goded them into following you there

3. Assualt with a deadly weapon or a brandishing sharge springs to mind- but it would probably be beaten if it went to a jury based on the testimony of your G/F and kid that they thought these thugs were going to follow you home and attack you there.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 2:24:01 AM EDT
Just my $0.02

"Losing it" and drawing a firearm should never be put together. NEVER go to your destination when followed. No sense in initiating a confrontation like that either, finish the confrontation, never start it.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 6:38:38 AM EDT
As bad as it sounds, people like you are the reason people like me are in danger of losing their rights with respect to gun ownership/posession. I don't care if you're a genetically engineered ninja superassassin who speaks Farsi in his sleep, if (as you put it) "thousands of hours of training" go out the window (along with common sense) as soon as a couple of jackass kids act like that, you shouldn't have a CHL, and damned sure shouldn't carry weapons in public. If those kids were actually trying to jack you, your actions actually put your family in MORE danger not less. For someone who claims to have a lot of training, you made some very poor decisions.

A couple of guys get out of the car with weapons and you draw on them, I will praise you as one of the good guys (except for the fact in this case that you initiated a confrontation in front of your wife and kids, which is serious bad mojo). As it stands, you just became a poster child for anti-gun/anti-CHL activists. Congrats.

Bad decisions come with bad consequences. When firearms are involved, those consequenses are potentially much more severe. If you're the type to let testosterone interfere with judgement (which you all but admitted you did), please leave your guns at home and save the rest of us a lot of trouble.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 6:41:20 AM EDT
Damn, we have a tough crowd here.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 6:50:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SC-Texas:
Damn, we have a tough crowd here.




Yeah. I don't think there's any need to beat the guy up, but hopefully we'll ALL learn a little from disecting this situation.

CMOS
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:28:04 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 8:34:26 AM EDT
ok, turn the situation around and add the thought that if any of us ever went bad what would we do?

I and a couple buddies are on the way home from drinking at the bar and someone cuts us off. We yell and scream, shoot the bird and decide to follow them just to scare the shit of them. They exit the freeway and take a side road. We follow them keeping up, honking the horn and playing like we are going to ram them. Finally the car stops and the passenger who looks like a metro sexual gets out (sorry dude) of the car without a gun so we pile out to finish the shit. We have pistols, knives and they are all in pockets and we have our hands on them. Had he stepped out with a gun we would have pulled ours. The plan now is to walk up to the guy and beat the shit out of him and maybe drag his old lady out of the car and rape her. Rob them and steal the car. Or maybe we will just walk up to him and shoot him thru the coat pocket of or jacket with out pulling the gun and playing fair. Maybe we do her first. Maybe if he had not stopped we would have jumped the car at the next light. Maybe just shot the driver. Why the hell not? We may be stoned, career criminals or just don’t give a fuck.


That is your enemy gentlemen. Not a couple “punk kids” out for a laugh. Not a case or road rage. Street gangs like MS13 are real and they are as smart as you. Never underestimate them. They plan attacks and they train from hand to hand to knife fighting to take downs like car jackings. You have to plan that people intentionally following you are professional killers. It’s not a joke and it’s not a game. You may be a engineer or a doctor but these people go to work to rob, rape and murder and those who do it poorly are in jail. The ones that do it well rarely get caught. They know surprise and overwhelming violence are the keys to winning the fight. It sounds like Somalia but it happens in Houston every day.

I hear what your saying, ROE has been violated. Don’t pull your gun until after they pull theirs. Sure he may have violated the rules of polite society by stopping and then frightening the “goblins” with his necessary but evil gun. open the houston comical and read up about he daily shootings at stores. two guys walk in and without a word shoot the manager in the guts. then they open the register.

This is war and you have to win the war the right way. But first you have to win it! That involves instinct, tactics, tools and the will to win. His instinct told him they were going to bring this to a head. He has been in enough shit to know when things are turning sour. Something told him he could not go any further. Maybe it was the fact that animals were stalking him when he was with his family. Maybe it was rage at that fact. I trust him to know when the shit is getting to deep and I trust him to know what to do in the event he has to stop. So do the laws in the great state of TEXAS. That is why they are written the way they are. Not so you have to run or cower when evil takes in interest in you. But so you can do what a reasonable person would do. Not a reasonable rabbit.

I didn’t say it before but I think you did a damn good job. Shooting over their heads would have been a little over the top. But one guy alone vs 3 would cause me to pull a gun in fear for my life. you wone and lived. so did the shit birds. maybe they will wise up, maybe they will be more violent the next time. but noting you did would cause you to be responsible for them continuing to act like animals.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 8:36:32 AM EDT
This whole situation was someone elses fault.

I talked to those guys yesterday and they were in a bad mood because they had met some guy 15 minutes earlier to buy a MINT Super Sniper scope and the guy dropped it right in front of em to show them how tough it was. Plus it had ring marks so they were understandably upset when some chick cut em of on the way back home with no scope.

Link Posted: 2/13/2006 8:44:26 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 8:49:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
I fell asleep after the first two sentences. Any chance you could just post the Cliff Notes or something?

TRG



Link Posted: 2/13/2006 9:27:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2006 7:59:22 PM EDT by MauserMark]
and to think, if I were to find these wastes of life and kill them all I'd be the one to go to jail. That's democracy for you.

*you have to be a simpson's fan to get the joke.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 9:50:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:

Originally Posted By hk940:




I fell asleep after the first two sentences. Any chance you could just post the Cliff Notes or something?

TRG



Sure, be glad to…

Bad guys really are bad not pretend but really bad. They kill people for a living and they kill for little or no reason.
The Texas gun laws are written with that in mind. So go with your gut feeling. I didn’t say it before but I think you did a damn good job. Shooting over their heads would have been a little over the top. One guy vs 3 would cause me to pull a gun in fear for my life. .


Link Posted: 2/13/2006 10:08:26 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 12:07:04 PM EDT
I think that it is legal to brandish your pistol in some limited instances- would not this have been one of them?
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