Quoted: I think that it is legal to brandish your pistol in some limited instances- would not this have been one of them?

Hell no.  You can pull when you can shoot.  Never pull a gun unless you are shooting it.

I am not a lawyer, these are my opinions and understandings.

Quoted: Quoted: I think that it is legal to brandish your pistol in some limited instances- would not this have been one of them? I think you are confusing 'bandishing' and 'using' deadly force.  As I understood it, you can only display deadly force, when and to the degree necessary to use deadly force.

The big problem with that statement is "display of deadly force"  There is no such thing.  There is "force", "deadly force", and "threat of force".  This doesnt go into the "brandishing" charges, as I am unfamiliar with those statues.... other than the "maneer calculated to alarm" stuff.

The force and deadly force statues are well documented, but hard to follow.  They also depend on the totallity of the circumstances.... something very difficult to disucss in an internet forum.  The statues are covered in Chapter 9 of the Penal code:

www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/PE/content/htm/pe.002.00.000009.00.htm

§ 9.04.  THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE.  The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter.  For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.

Therefore - a threat of deadly force (display of weapon) IS FORCE (follows the same justification), but does not consitute DEADLY FORCE.

Therefore - if FORCE is used against you as defined.... you can display your weapon, to create the apprehension that you will use deadly force if necessary.

The real question is.... was force used against you?  In this case?  Is stopping your vehicle and exiting it, using force?  Does that consitute the threat of force?  I dont think so.

Thugs getting out, and screaming that they are going beat your ass, might be different.  Them saying they are about to kill you SURELY changes things.  

However, there is a real problem with this scenario:  

§ 9.31.  SELF-DEFENSE. (b)  The use of force against another is not justified:    (4)  if the actor provoked the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force, unless: (A)  the actor abandons the encounter, or clearly communicates to the other his intent to do so reasonably believing he cannot safely abandon the encounter;  and (B)  the other nevertheless continues or attempts to use unlawful force against the actor;  or (5)  if the actor sought an explanation from or discussion with the other person concerning the actor's differences with the other person while the actor was: (A)  carrying a weapon in violation of Section 46.02;  or                   (B)  possessing or transporting a weapon in violation of Section 46.05.

Stopping, getting out on the street, could be seen as provoking.  Especially when a reasonable person would flee.... since technically you were already fleeing the threat.

so... If you think the situation requires deadly force, you can pull your weapon.

Not quite that simple.  If you are JUSTIFED in use of FORCE OR DEADLY FORCE, you can pull your weapon.

You are not required to use it if you pull it.

Absolutely.  But you had better be prepared to!

Quoted: Quoted: I think that it is legal to brandish your pistol in some limited instances- would not this have been one of them? Hell no.  You can pull when you can shoot.

While a true statment, you can also pull in situations when you are justified to use FORCE, but NOT justified to use DEADLY FORCE.  The threat of force by production of a weapon clearly does not demonstrate use of deadly force.  Firing it, does.

Never pull a gun unless you are shooting it.

I disagree, and while that might get you out of trouble from premature drawing of a weapon..... it is bad advice.  Pull your gun when you are justified in use of force, or deadly force.  I think in most cases, you might already be justified for the use of deadly force by the time you are drawing.... but there are MANY scenarios where you can legally draw your weapon to stop force or deadly force being used against you, and NOT have to fire it.

Do you think cops should fire everytime they pull their weapon?    No.  They are simply creating the threat of deadly force.  We are no different.

Quoted: As bad as it sounds, people like you are the reason people like me are in danger of losing their rights with respect to gun ownership/posession.  I don't care if you're a genetically engineered ninja superassassin who speaks Farsi in his sleep, if (as you put it) "thousands of hours of training" go out the window (along with common sense) as soon as a couple of jackass kids act like that, you shouldn't have a CHL, and damned sure shouldn't carry weapons in public.  If those kids were actually trying to jack you, your actions actually put your family in MORE danger not less.  For someone who claims to have a lot of training, you made some very poor decisions. A couple of guys get out of the car with weapons and you draw on them, I will praise you as one of the good guys (except for the fact in this case that you initiated a confrontation in front of your wife and kids, which is serious bad mojo).  As it stands, you just became a poster child for anti-gun/anti-CHL activists.  Congrats. Bad decisions come with bad consequences.  When firearms are involved, those consequenses are potentially much more severe.  If you're the type to let testosterone interfere with judgement (which you all but admitted you did), please leave your guns at home and save the rest of us a lot of trouble.

Sir, I have spent the entirety of my existence pulling the fuses out of situations like the aforementioned, and came to this table with a calm shame for my actions.  You, on the other hand, have chosen to openly attack me with this verbiage of righteous indignation for reasons apparent to only you.

I will not foster your ignorance any further with regard to this situation nor will I feel it necessary to justify my actions to an individual with a clear path to create the very emotion that I am in esteemed attempt to suppress.

Your impotent comments are noteworthy as those of an infantile mind that could not possible comprehend the concepts of family or rage.  Your inability to pronounce apathy within a acerbic time while maintaining posture further punctuates your lack of capability on any front.

IO1

Did the car have Louisiana plates?  Just curious.

Yes, I live in Houston, why do you ask?

EDIT:

The comment that the kids left while talking shit and looking at a gun is the sort of thing the poor, pitiful Katrina evacuees seem to do on a regular basis.  And then they are surprised when they then get shot.

In all honesty, when I have been travelling in Latin America it has been SOP to know where the schools, churches, and gay bars were so that you had a place to get to ASAP if there was likely violence.  It sounds like you didn't want to ram them so stopping where you were actually seems reasonable.  If you ram a car, as I suspect you know, you may have disabled your getaway, so ...

Sounds like a reasonable call under the circumstances.  Rolling it around in your head is a great way to spot flaws and to change things next time.  Had I been with you, I would be able to comment more, but hey, I wasn't there.

Bottom line is that you walked away and are watching game films now.  Good move with both things.  Now eat something and get some sleep.

Escillation of force.

1. Verbal judo... ( I hate that name)
2. Soft hands.
3. Heavy hands (PPCT)
4. Less lethal (pepper, mace, blinding light)
5. PR-24, ASP, tazer (some depts. rank ASP and PR24 the same at #6)
6. Firearm.


If you acutally get to the point of drawing a firearm and the *THREAT* is stopped by the sight of the firearm, you are no longer justified in using deadly force.

If BG says verbal threat, deadly force not justified

if BG raises fist in attempt to hit you, unless you are a little old lady or pregnant, lethal force is not justified.

if BG has a walking stick in his hand and says I'm going to hit you with this walking stick, lethal force is not justifed.

if BG raises said walking stick in such a way as to indicate he is going to strike, lethal force is justified.

I'm not a lawyer, I don't even play one on TV. But we spent almost 2hrs on this subject alone in my chl class. So this is what I'm going by with regard to justification lethal force.

I've taught 1-5 above in my years as a MA teacher, I can handle my own with multiple attackers. You throw a mass attack senario into the mix and all bets are off. I'm not going to risk screwing around and have my weapon taken from me( sucks we dont have open carry, or this would not be an issue with the very nice retention holsters on the market) Take that how you will, it's just my $.02

Right or wrong I don't know.   What I do know is that, noone got shot and, you and your family are safe and that is all that matters.

Glad you made it through buddy.....who else would I bum cigarettes off of if you became a bullet sponge?

He's a big boy, nobody ever died in a bad AAR.

Quoted: Escillation of force. 1. Verbal judo... ( I hate that name) 2. Soft hands. 3. Heavy hands (PPCT) 4. Less lethal (pepper, mace, blinding light) 5. PR-24, ASP, tazer (some depts. rank ASP and PR24 the same at #6) 6. Firearm.

In our Use of Force policy, O.C. and Taser are at #2. If you have to do more than just forcing their hands behind their back, our officers are allowed to use O.C. and Taser.

Quoted: Quoted: Escillation of force. 1. Verbal judo... ( I hate that name) 2. Soft hands. 3. Heavy hands (PPCT) 4. Less lethal (pepper, mace, blinding light) 5. PR-24, ASP, tazer (some depts. rank ASP and PR24 the same at #6) 6. Firearm. In our Use of Force policy, O.C. and Taser are at #2. If you have to do more than just forcing their hands behind their back, our officers are allowed to use O.C. and Taser.

LOL, you must be a Garland cop.    j/k

I agree with FAL- I try to get the f out BEFORE things get shitty. You can't get hurt or shot if your not there. If they continue the chase to the point where your options are exhausted and you have completed your obligation to defuse or remove yourself from danger then you can produce your weapon.

That said, I'm not a big fan of "if you pull your weapon, use it" theory. If the bad guys have put you in a situation where you are out of options and have to produce your weapon it doesn't automatically mean you get double tap them. "Brandishing" is a term that can be used in a bad way or good. If you draw your weapon you had better be commited to using that weapon if the BGs escalate the situation from there. Trying to simply scare your target is a good way to get shot and actually end up becoming the bad guy. If you draw down, they still have the option to stop the altercation (right then) and leave, or allow you too. Both of my CHL instructors gave several examples of chl folks that have stopped a imminent criminal assault by drawing down at the proper time and NOT shooting.  

Quoted: That said, I'm not a big fan of "if you pull your weapon, use it" theory. If the bad guys have put you in a situation where you are out of options and have to produce your weapon it doesn't automatically mean you get double tap them. "Brandishing" is a term that can be used in a bad way or good. If you draw your weapon you had better be commited to using that weapon if the BGs escalate the situation from there. Trying to simply scare your target is a good way to get shot and actually end up becoming the bad guy. If you draw down, they still have the option to stop the altercation (right then) and leave, or allow you too. Both of my CHL instructors gave several examples of chl folks that have stopped a imminent criminal assault by drawing down at the proper time and NOT shooting.

A big +1 on that paragraph.

CMOS

I have a CHL (tx) and so do many of my friends. I admit I am guilty of using “Sign Language of the Road” a few times. I’m not going to chase some one down (not that dumb) but others are. What was done sounds like a violation of law, but if some punks got scared off maybe next time they will think twice.

Things could have turned out very different, what if the guys in that car all had guns (legal or not) When you pulled they could have reacted like many of us here would have, and also pulled. With 3 unarmed guys- odds on your side / 3 armed guys and you, not so good.
If they started shooting even the highest speed ninja can not dodge bullets and also use said high speed ninja skills to keep bullets from hitting family. I know your intent was to protect your family, as I think every one wants to protect the ones they love. I have never had to pull, and don’t know what I would do if in your shoes. Looking at it now with a clear head it is easy to think of 100’s of different things that could have been done, good and bad. I don’t know where I was going with this so I will end with this ( take it how you will)

Its better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6

This is not always the best course of action but ……..


           Invisiblesoul

Cell phone?

Call 911 first and leave the line open.

Kinda hard to protect your family from jail if you are lucky enough to not get you or them shot.

Sir, I have spent the entirety of my existence pulling the fuses out of situations like the aforementioned, and came to this table with a calm shame for my actions. You, on the other hand, have chosen to openly attack me with this verbiage of righteous indignation for reasons apparent to only you. I will not foster your ignorance any further with regard to this situation nor will I feel it necessary to justify my actions to an individual with a clear path to create the very emotion that I am in esteemed attempt to suppress. Your impotent comments are noteworthy as those of an infantile mind that could not possible comprehend the concepts of family or rage. Your inability to pronounce apathy within a acerbic time while maintaining posture further punctuates your lack of capability on any front.

I never attacked you.  You described your situation, begged a response, and got it.  If you can't take it, you shouldn't ask.  Whether you're a crisis management expert or not, by your own admission you handled this situation poorly, and I merely reminded you of some facts, which I will reiterate:

1.  By letting your emotions take control, you personally escalated the potential level of violence, and put your family in more danger not less.  This is described by several others in this thread, so there is no need to go into detail.  Bad idea.

2.  Your actions could very easily be viewed as illegal use of a firearm.  If this is necessary to defend your family, this is not an issue, but it was not.  Bad idea.

3.  Fact:  this kind of stupid kneejerk reaction is the type of thing that anti gun/CHL types love to use to defend their stance... like it or not,  that's the way it is.  You and your family's safety is not my concern, but this bothers me personally because your actions then have the potential to interfere with my rights.  There are lots of people who would like to take these rights away, so, especially as a CHL holder, you must hold yourself to a higher standard and not give them justification or make their crusade any easier.  If this does not make sense to you, then I truly feel you shouldn't be licensed to carry.  Feel free to disagree if you want.

4.  Ok, maybe you are a super operator and have spent your whole life dealing with situations like this.  For someone of that ilk, you sure screwed the dog on this one.  I'll call it like I see it... if you can't handle the criticism, keep your experiences to yourself.  Not an attack, just an observation.

As for me not understanding family or rage, you're wrong again.  I have a family of my own, and my primary duty in a crisis is to keep them as far away from mortal danger as possible, and only if that is not an option to take active measures to remove threats.  I've got rage issues of my own, and if my emotions prevent me from performing these duties, I need to get my shit together or put the guns away before I get myself (or someone in my family) killed.  If you're as experienced as you claim this should make sense to you.

If I'm harsh with you it's because this shit is important.  There is little to no room for error or bad judgement when deadly force is involved, and expert or not,  nobody on the internet should have to remind you of this.  Your actions effect you, those around you, and attitudes toward every other lawful gun owner out there.   I'm not telling you this any different than I would my sons, other family, or friends.  If your feelings are hurt that's too damned bad. Get your head straight and be one of the good guys.

Quoted: Sure, be glad to… Bad guys really are bad not pretend but really bad.  They kill people for a living and they kill for little or no reason.

My experience has been that most "bad guys" are punk ass cowards who move on to easier prey when they meet with resistence.

That's not to say that there aren't complete psychos out there who will kill at the drop of a hat, and for this reason you treat any engagement as if you opponent is one of these. But from what I've read most incidents of self defense with a firearm are over before shots are fired. Now, I'm not saying that you should draw a gun without being prepared to use it. I believe the exact opposite. If the gun comes out then you MUST be PREPARED to shoot. I just don't think that it's necessary to draw down on every punk that comes along.

Quoted: Quoted: I think that it is legal to brandish your pistol in some limited instances- would not this have been one of them? I think you are confusing 'bandishing' and 'using' deadly force.  As I understood it, you can only display deadly force, when and to the degree necessary to use deadly force. so... If you think the situation requires deadly force, you can pull your weapon.  You are not required to use it if you pull it. TRG

Well said.

The problem with being too quick to pull your gun is that you run the risk of shooting someone who didn't deserve to get shot and thus becoming a criminal.

The problem with being too hesitant to pull your gun is that you'll be at a disadvantage, which may very well cost you your life.

Under the circumstances that IndOperator described I'm not convinced that he was wrong to draw. He had 3 people displaying aggressive behavior who followed him, stopped their vehicle, and got out of their vehicle and approached his vehicle.

I think that any reasonable person would have had reason to be afraid, especially with their family around. I'm not sure on the particulars in Texas, but I know that in Michigan being out numbered by aggressors (even if they are unarmed) is usually a justifiable use of deadly force.

On the other hand, stopping the vehilce can be viewed as initiation of a confrontation, in which case you become the criminal. It probably would have been best to go to a public place as others have said.

Alot of times there is a fine line between justifible use of force and assault with a deadly weapon or worse.

One more thing...when I took my class in Michigan they advised us that if we ever did draw our firearm and the attacker retreated we should immedately call the police to report the incident. The logic is that if you call first you are usually viewed as a responsible citizen notifing the police of a foiled crime. You can then explain the incident in the manner that you saw it. Remember, there is nothing preventing them from driving away and calling the cops with some convoluted story about how they were just going about their merry way when you pulled your gun on them.

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