Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Posted: 1/26/2006 7:35:12 PM EDT
I've made two types of firearm purchases in the last few years -

straight transfer for a $15 fee (Dealer #1)
dealer cost plus 10% transfer (Dealer #2)

Assuming both purchases were for guns that originated out of state,

Dealer #1 charged me no state sales tax, just the $15 transfer fee. I sent the money/credit card to the out of state dealer myself.

Dealer #2 charged me cost + 10%, and also charged me state sales tax. Dealer #2 took my money and paid the out of state dealer with it.

The transfers sound the same to me, my money ended up out of state, but in the second case it happened to touch Dealer #2's hands. Each dealer charges a transfer fee, one is a set amount, the other is 10% of the gun cost.

Is Dealer #2 really supposed to charge me sales tax? He checked with another FFL in Dallas who confirmed to him he needed to charge tax to complete his billing paperwork.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 8:08:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Maroonfeather:
I've made two types of firearm purchases in the last few years -

straight transfer for a $15 fee (Dealer #1)
dealer cost plus 10% transfer (Dealer #2)

Assuming both purchases were for guns that originated out of state,

Dealer #1 charged me no state sales tax, just the $15 transfer fee. I sent the money/credit card to the out of state dealer myself.

Dealer #2 charged me cost + 10%, and also charged me state sales tax. Dealer #2 took my money and paid the out of state dealer with it.

The transfers sound the same to me, my money ended up out of state, but in the second case it happened to touch Dealer #2's hands. Each dealer charges a transfer fee, one is a set amount, the other is 10% of the gun cost.

Is Dealer #2 really supposed to charge me sales tax? He checked with another FFL in Dallas who confirmed to him he needed to charge tax to complete his billing paperwork.



First, dealers don't charge sales tax, the state does, the dealer collects it for the state. It is a condition, set by the state, for the dealer to be in business. In situation one the dealer was not required to collect tax from you on your firearm purchase. You bought it from someone out of state. He is required to collect tax on the transfer fee. You are responsible to fill out the paper work and pay a use tax to the state. In situation two, your dealer purchased the firearm. He is responsible to collect state sales tax. It didn't matter if you gave him money up front or bought it off his shelf, he bought it and sold it to you.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 9:12:43 PM EDT
I agree with terrydavis. It is not different than Dealer #2 buying it wholesale out of state and then selling it to you. All you did it tell him where to get the gun. It would be no different if you went to Wal-Mart and had them order a special gun for you (and they will) and then selling it to you over the counter. When you pay for any item "in" Texas, the governor wants his cut and you paid for the item in Texas.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 11:41:34 PM EDT
Dont buy anymore guns from dealer #2 duh!
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 5:46:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
Dont buy anymore guns from dealer #2 duh!



So, don't buy from dealer #2 because he obeys the law? Why not just buy the gun yourself. Cut out the dealer all together? Why walk into any gunstore and purchase a firearm, they are all crooks anyway.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 8:07:49 AM EDT
the ffl i go through just charges me the straight fee, he doesnt tax me for something i already paid for.


Link Posted: 1/27/2006 8:08:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/27/2006 8:09:54 AM EDT by eklikwhoa]

Originally Posted By terrydavis:

Originally Posted By DevL:
Dont buy anymore guns from dealer #2 duh!



So, don't buy from dealer #2 because he obeys the law? Why not just buy the gun yourself. Cut out the dealer all together? Why walk into any gunstore and purchase a firearm, they are all crooks anyway.





are you dealer #2? do you charge plus 10%?

the way i see it is this, sorta like mechanic work you dont tax the labor but you tax the part.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 8:44:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By eklikwhoa:

Originally Posted By terrydavis:

Originally Posted By DevL:
Dont buy anymore guns from dealer #2 duh!



So, don't buy from dealer #2 because he obeys the law? Why not just buy the gun yourself. Cut out the dealer all together? Why walk into any gunstore and purchase a firearm, they are all crooks anyway.





are you dealer #2? do you charge plus 10%?

the way i see it is this, sorta like mechanic work you dont tax the labor but you tax the part.



No, I am not dealer #2. What I don't get is your belief that dealers shouldn't make money. Do you really beleive dealer #2 should do this for free? Do you work for free out of the goodness of your heart? Most of us are not independently wealthy. I have bills to pay, food to eat and I want to get in out of the cold. And you are bitching about a lousy 10%.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 9:44:56 AM EDT
I think what he's getting at is this:

Dealer A = Local shop.
Dealer B = Out-of-state shop or person who has what you want.

Don't give the money to Dealer A to send to Dealer B, thus obligating you to pay +10% and sales tax when you can simply send the money directly to Dealer B yourself and just pay whatever transfer fee Dealer A charges.

Obviously, this won't work if you want Dealer A to get you something from his distributor or if you want him to do all the work of tracking down and acquiring what you want. But if you've already got a line on something from abroad, and you have the option of paying the original seller for the product, why increase your costs by having a local dealer send the payment?
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 9:49:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/27/2006 10:04:23 AM EDT by Bulldawg]
.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 10:03:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/27/2006 10:03:59 AM EDT by Bulldawg]
.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 10:03:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bulldawg:
I think what he's getting at is this:

Dealer A = Local shop.
Dealer B = Out-of-state shop or person who has what you want.

Don't give the money to Dealer A to send to Dealer B, thus obligating you to pay +10% and sales tax when you can simply send the money directly to Dealer B yourself and just pay whatever transfer fee Dealer A charges.

Obviously, this won't work if you want Dealer A to get you something from his distributor or if you want him to do all the work of tracking down and acquiring what you want. But if you've already got a line on something from abroad, and you have the option of paying the original seller for the product, why increase your costs by having a local dealer send the payment?



Both are local shops. With dealer #1 customer buys what he want from the internet or phone or whatever. dealer #1 is transfering the firearm. With dealer #2 the customer wants something he saw advertized by a wholesaler, customer doesn't have and ffl and the wholesaler refuses to sell to him. So he goes to dealer #2 who has an ffl, tax permit, overhead and expects him to do it for free, because they are "buds". Dealer #2 has a resonable expectation to be paid for his services. Since the wholesaler sold the firearm to dealer #2 he has to collect state sales tax when he sells the firearm to customer. Customer in situation one defrauds the state out of state use tax and publically admits this on a national forum, and questions dealer #2 because he doesn't get away with paying the state sales/use tax in situation #2. His underlying thought is that dealer #2 is a crook.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 11:34:37 AM EDT
paying 10% to transfer a $100-$200 receiver is reasonable.

paying 10% to transfer a $1500-$2000 firearm is paying too much for filling out some paperwork.

Luckily, I have a FFL who agrees with me on this point.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 11:42:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By terrydavis:

Originally Posted By Bulldawg:
I think what he's getting at is this:

Dealer A = Local shop.
Dealer B = Out-of-state shop or person who has what you want.

Don't give the money to Dealer A to send to Dealer B, thus obligating you to pay +10% and sales tax when you can simply send the money directly to Dealer B yourself and just pay whatever transfer fee Dealer A charges.

Obviously, this won't work if you want Dealer A to get you something from his distributor or if you want him to do all the work of tracking down and acquiring what you want. But if you've already got a line on something from abroad, and you have the option of paying the original seller for the product, why increase your costs by having a local dealer send the payment?



Both are local shops. With dealer #1 customer buys what he want from the internet or phone or whatever. dealer #1 is transfering the firearm.
Correct - the price of the item is already set

With dealer #2 the customer wants something he saw advertized by a wholesaler, customer doesn't have and ffl and the wholesaler refuses to sell to him. So he goes to dealer #2 who has an ffl, tax permit, overhead and expects him to do it for free, because they are "buds".
Not sure if you are assuming this about me, or one of the other posters.
Dealer #2 is also local to me. I use his services for retails items, where he can get me his dealer discount, and I pay him 10% of my item for his fee. I've got no problem with that, it's his business. I just don't see much difference between this transaction and the one with Dealer #1 regarding paying sales tax. If it has to be that way, fine, I'll just have to take that into account when deciding on future purposes. BTW, the tax isn't really trivial either, around $80 for a $1000 gun.


Dealer #2 has a resonable expectation to be paid for his services. Since the wholesaler sold the firearm to dealer #2 he has to collect state sales tax when he sells the firearm to customer. Customer in situation one defrauds the state out of state use tax and publically admits this on a national forum, and questions dealer #2 because he doesn't get away with paying the state sales/use tax in situation #2. His underlying thought is that dealer #2 is a crook.


Jeez, am I still the customer you are referring to? Not everyone is a small businessman who deals with tax code issues on a daily basis. That's why I'm looking for intelligent advise and information here on the internet. Many people buy items on the internet from out of state and do not pay sales tax. I have never heard of paying tax on top of a transfer fee. I certainly don't think Dealer #1 is a crook, and I'm not hoping to talk Dealer #2 into becoming one.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 12:20:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/27/2006 12:20:57 PM EDT by terrydavis]

Originally Posted By Maroonfeather:

Originally Posted By terrydavis:

Originally Posted By Bulldawg:
I think what he's getting at is this:

Dealer A = Local shop.
Dealer B = Out-of-state shop or person who has what you want.

Don't give the money to Dealer A to send to Dealer B, thus obligating you to pay +10% and sales tax when you can simply send the money directly to Dealer B yourself and just pay whatever transfer fee Dealer A charges.

Obviously, this won't work if you want Dealer A to get you something from his distributor or if you want him to do all the work of tracking down and acquiring what you want. But if you've already got a line on something from abroad, and you have the option of paying the original seller for the product, why increase your costs by having a local dealer send the payment?



Both are local shops. With dealer #1 customer buys what he want from the internet or phone or whatever. dealer #1 is transfering the firearm.
Correct - the price of the item is already set

With dealer #2 the customer wants something he saw advertized by a wholesaler, customer doesn't have and ffl and the wholesaler refuses to sell to him. So he goes to dealer #2 who has an ffl, tax permit, overhead and expects him to do it for free, because they are "buds".
Not sure if you are assuming this about me, or one of the other posters.
Dealer #2 is also local to me. I use his services for retails items, where he can get me his dealer discount, and I pay him 10% of my item for his fee. I've got no problem with that, it's his business. I just don't see much difference between this transaction and the one with Dealer #1 regarding paying sales tax. If it has to be that way, fine, I'll just have to take that into account when deciding on future purposes. BTW, the tax isn't really trivial either, around $80 for a $1000 gun.


Dealer #2 has a resonable expectation to be paid for his services. Since the wholesaler sold the firearm to dealer #2 he has to collect state sales tax when he sells the firearm to customer. Customer in situation one defrauds the state out of state use tax and publically admits this on a national forum, and questions dealer #2 because he doesn't get away with paying the state sales/use tax in situation #2. His underlying thought is that dealer #2 is a crook.


Jeez, am I still the customer you are referring to? Not everyone is a small businessman who deals with tax code issues on a daily basis. That's why I'm looking for intelligent advise and information here on the internet. Many people buy items on the internet from out of state and do not pay sales tax. I have never heard of paying tax on top of a transfer fee. I certainly don't think Dealer #1 is a crook, and I'm not hoping to talk Dealer #2 into becoming one.



It is a transfer fee if you pay someone other than the dealer, if you pay the dealer it is his sale, he collects sales tax. If you buy it over the internet, you pay use tax. It is the law. If you don't, you are breaking the law.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 1:24:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By terrydavis:

Originally Posted By eklikwhoa:

Originally Posted By terrydavis:

Originally Posted By DevL:
Dont buy anymore guns from dealer #2 duh!



So, don't buy from dealer #2 because he obeys the law? Why not just buy the gun yourself. Cut out the dealer all together? Why walk into any gunstore and purchase a firearm, they are all crooks anyway.





are you dealer #2? do you charge plus 10%?

the way i see it is this, sorta like mechanic work you dont tax the labor but you tax the part.



No, I am not dealer #2. What I don't get is your belief that dealers shouldn't make money. Do you really beleive dealer #2 should do this for free? Do you work for free out of the goodness of your heart? Most of us are not independently wealthy. I have bills to pay, food to eat and I want to get in out of the cold. And you are bitching about a lousy 10%.




on top of the ffl transfer fee?

in my line of work thats like charging you for a tune up and also charging you to remove your spark plug wires.

charging to change your tires but adding a fee to remove your wheels from the car

charging to replace your head gasket and adding a fee to remove the valve covers first

or charging you rent for the time your car will have to stay at the shop while im working on it.


i have no problem paying for service or parts and understand that there are cost/bills that need to be payed. i myself am a shop owner but i dont charge more than what is set or tax labor parts get taxed and thats a given.

i deal with coz at nwhouston tactical and he is a great guy, in which i have never questioned his fees or items he sell cause i know it cost more for a storefront then some internet guys and i understand that you pay a bit more for the customer service you get with dealing in person. he has a set ffl transfer fee and doesnt tax it
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 3:08:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By eklikwhoa:

Originally Posted By terrydavis:

Originally Posted By eklikwhoa:

Originally Posted By terrydavis:

Originally Posted By DevL:
Dont buy anymore guns from dealer #2 duh!



So, don't buy from dealer #2 because he obeys the law? Why not just buy the gun yourself. Cut out the dealer all together? Why walk into any gunstore and purchase a firearm, they are all crooks anyway.





are you dealer #2? do you charge plus 10%?

the way i see it is this, sorta like mechanic work you dont tax the labor but you tax the part.



No, I am not dealer #2. What I don't get is your belief that dealers shouldn't make money. Do you really beleive dealer #2 should do this for free? Do you work for free out of the goodness of your heart? Most of us are not independently wealthy. I have bills to pay, food to eat and I want to get in out of the cold. And you are bitching about a lousy 10%.




on top of the ffl transfer fee?

in my line of work thats like charging you for a tune up and also charging you to remove your spark plug wires.

charging to change your tires but adding a fee to remove your wheels from the car

charging to replace your head gasket and adding a fee to remove the valve covers first

or charging you rent for the time your car will have to stay at the shop while im working on it.


i have no problem paying for service or parts and understand that there are cost/bills that need to be payed. i myself am a shop owner but i dont charge more than what is set or tax labor parts get taxed and thats a given.

i deal with coz at nwhouston tactical and he is a great guy, in which i have never questioned his fees or items he sell cause i know it cost more for a storefront then some internet guys and i understand that you pay a bit more for the customer service you get with dealing in person. he has a set ffl transfer fee and doesnt tax it



Your dealer doesn't "tax it" the state does, all he is supposed to do is collect it for the state. Some day when he is audited he will end up paying. Maybe fines and penalties on top of that. By the way, how much do you mark up part you sell in your shop? More than 10%?
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 4:34:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2006 4:35:49 AM EDT by eklikwhoa]

Originally Posted By terrydavis:

Originally Posted By eklikwhoa:

Originally Posted By terrydavis:

Originally Posted By eklikwhoa:

Originally Posted By terrydavis:

Originally Posted By DevL:
Dont buy anymore guns from dealer #2 duh!



So, don't buy from dealer #2 because he obeys the law? Why not just buy the gun yourself. Cut out the dealer all together? Why walk into any gunstore and purchase a firearm, they are all crooks anyway.





are you dealer #2? do you charge plus 10%?

the way i see it is this, sorta like mechanic work you dont tax the labor but you tax the part.



No, I am not dealer #2. What I don't get is your belief that dealers shouldn't make money. Do you really beleive dealer #2 should do this for free? Do you work for free out of the goodness of your heart? Most of us are not independently wealthy. I have bills to pay, food to eat and I want to get in out of the cold. And you are bitching about a lousy 10%.




on top of the ffl transfer fee?

in my line of work thats like charging you for a tune up and also charging you to remove your spark plug wires.

charging to change your tires but adding a fee to remove your wheels from the car

charging to replace your head gasket and adding a fee to remove the valve covers first

or charging you rent for the time your car will have to stay at the shop while im working on it.


i have no problem paying for service or parts and understand that there are cost/bills that need to be payed. i myself am a shop owner but i dont charge more than what is set or tax labor parts get taxed and thats a given.

i deal with coz at nwhouston tactical and he is a great guy, in which i have never questioned his fees or items he sell cause i know it cost more for a storefront then some internet guys and i understand that you pay a bit more for the customer service you get with dealing in person. he has a set ffl transfer fee and doesnt tax it



Your dealer doesn't "tax it" the state does, all he is supposed to do is collect it for the state. Some day when he is audited he will end up paying. Maybe fines and penalties on top of that. By the way, how much do you mark up part you sell in your shop? More than 10%?





actually i have a good customer base and most of the time make less than 10% but there are some items in which i have to sell at a certain percent but even then parts is not what i base my living on just an aid. labor is what pays the bills along with repeat/happy customers
Top Top