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Posted: 12/3/2005 6:18:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2005 10:51:10 AM EDT by ZULU NINER]
Thought I'd check out how accomodating they would be to 10 USC § 4309 and was hoping for a 50 - 300 meter pop-up range like we had in the Army.

The base is really too far for me to go (for what they have available) and the hours aren't convenient for me either. But, I'm offering the information here in case it's closer and more convenient for someone else. I also encourage others to find out what other ranges are available (any rifle range constructed entirely or partially with Federal funds).

One thing to note about the letter, the wording of this sentence was interesting: "In response to your letter, there are two 10-points, 25 yards, and removable static targets small arms ranges located onboard the exclusive federal jurisdiction of NAS JRB Forth Worth.". This sounds like there may be other ranges on the base, that aren't under exclusive federal jurisdiction (shared ranges?). Either way, if they were constructed with any Federal money, we should still have access to them. I wonder if they were throwing me a bone and hoping I'd be happy with what they are offering?

10 USC § 4309
uscode.house.gov/download/pls/10C401.txt

Anyway, enjoy...


CLICK ON LETTER
Link Posted: 12/3/2005 6:25:52 PM EDT
thanx man
Link Posted: 12/3/2005 6:55:43 PM EDT
That brings back memories. My father used to take me to the range with him at Carswell and Bergstrom when he had to qualify. All the ranges at Carswell I remember were short range, handgun type. They also had an indoor range, which they normally used for night qualification...oddly enough they only did it at night...outdoor range in the day, then the indoor range at night with the lights dimmed or off.

I don't rightly remember any Air Force small arms ranges being anything near the size of what the army had.


mm
Link Posted: 12/3/2005 7:59:16 PM EDT
Thanks, I was there (at LMCO anyway) last night until midnight. I wish I had known.
Link Posted: 12/4/2005 7:22:43 AM EDT
Very cool, I'll have to check that out some time.
Link Posted: 12/4/2005 8:39:23 AM EDT
hate to burst your bubble but the only operational range is an indoor range divided into two seperate ranges with computer controlled target holders on a motorized rail system. All sorts of federal, state and local law enforcement make use of it. And there are no POW (personally owned weapons) allowed on the range. At least not for us military types.
Link Posted: 12/4/2005 11:00:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SgtRed:
hate to burst your bubble but the only operational range is an indoor range divided into two seperate ranges with computer controlled target holders on a motorized rail system. All sorts of federal, state and local law enforcement make use of it. And there are no POW (personally owned weapons) allowed on the range. At least not for us military types.



If you read OPNAVINST 3591.1D (referenced in the letter), it states that issuance of Navy weapons or ammunition is not authorized. So, you'd have to bring your own weapons and ammunition. I'm sure a quick call to the Range Master could answer any/all questions.

Thanks for the information about the range. Could you explain more abou the "computer controlled target holders". Exactly what is the purpose of the computer control (move targets randomly)?

Also, I thought it was apparent, but maybe not so I added text under the picture of the document. If you click on the document, it'll enlarge and you can read their actual response to me.

Thanks...
Link Posted: 12/4/2005 11:28:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SgtRed:
hate to burst your bubble but the only operational range is an indoor range divided into two seperate ranges with computer controlled target holders on a motorized rail system. All sorts of federal, state and local law enforcement make use of it. And there are no POW (personally owned weapons) allowed on the range. At least not for us military types.



Federal law requires all Federally owned firearms ranges to be open to civilian use as long as it does not interfere training.

I forget the specific law, but it's floating around somewhere.

DUh! It's cited in the letter posted here [/brainfart]
Link Posted: 12/4/2005 1:26:42 PM EDT
Shed some more light on this, Does that say that any, I say any Federal (i.e US Government )
Owned shooting range has to let us use the gun range if it does not conflict with any official
use by Government , LEO or agency ?
Link Posted: 12/4/2005 1:39:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pointtarget:
Shed some more light on this, Does that say that any, I say any Federal (i.e US Government )
Owned shooting range has to let us use the gun range if it does not conflict with any official
use by Government , LEO or agency ?



I recommend you read the text of 10 USC § 4309 (link provided in my original post).
Link Posted: 12/4/2005 1:42:44 PM EDT
I'm just trying to understand what I am reading, If this is so, where or how can we find out
where those ranges are ?
Link Posted: 12/4/2005 5:13:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pointtarget:
I'm just trying to understand what I am reading, If this is so, where or how can we find out
where those ranges are ?



+1
Link Posted: 12/4/2005 5:47:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pointtarget:
I'm just trying to understand what I am reading, If this is so, where or how can we find out
where those ranges are ?



I'm no expert, but here's my take on it:

(a) You may use any rifle range constructed wholly or partially with Federal government money.
(b)(1) If the rifle range is on a military installation, they can establish reasonable fees to charge civilians to cover the costs of making the range available.
(b)(2) Any fees collected are to be used toward the upkeep/maintenance of that range.
(b)(3) Military needs take precedence on military ranges.
(c) Authorities in charge of the range can issue regulations, but they must be approved by the Secretary (of Defense?).

How to find out where those ranges are? Do what I did, write a letter to the Public Affairs officer of whatever entity you're interested in. Obviously, military bases would have their ranges built by Federal money, and I would expect Federal LEO too (wouldn't Hogan's Alley be fun). I then wonder about your state and local LEO (were their ranges built by Federal money in the form of grants?), etc. Whatever you find out, post it so we can all know.

Hope this helps...

Link Posted: 12/4/2005 8:08:54 PM EDT
Well Sgt. Red is on the right track ....As for your firearm well there is a big ass notes at THE FRONT GATE that reads NO FIREARMS; and the gaurds at the front gate are the biggest dickheads.
Link Posted: 12/4/2005 8:44:26 PM EDT
I just sent this letter to the NRA,

Under the law as described in 10 USC § 4309 How can a list be obtained of what shooting
ranges and locations of those ranges that were built buy Federal funds so that it may be used buy the public as stated in the law.

Lets see what there response is, if any.
I'll keep this updated.
Link Posted: 12/5/2005 5:14:15 AM EDT
The George Tubb Memorial Range at Fort Wolters in Mineral Wells is run pretty much the same way, I believe.
Link Posted: 12/5/2005 2:14:57 PM EDT
UPDATE

Just got this response back from the NRA.

Dear Mr. XXXXXX

The US Fish and Wildlife Service informed me that they have not
maintained a list of shooting ranges that have been built using Federal funds
(Pittman-Robertson excise tax funds). One staff member of the Federal
Aid Division had begun to compile such a list, but left the Division
for another position in the agency. He is out of the office this week,
but when he returns next week I will find out how much information he
may have gathered prior to leaving his previous position.

The Federal Aid Division has offered to contact their Regional Federal
Aid Offices to see if lists of ranges built within the respective
Regions have been compiled.

I will get back to you as soon as I have further information.

Best Regards,

Susan Recce
Director
Conservation, Wildlife and Natural Resources


When and if I get the list, I will post it and see if one of the Mods can tack it. It would
great if the list is for the whole USA.
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 5:20:45 PM EDT
freeflow,

Well, I guess that makes me the biggest dickhead on this board, b/c I've worked that gate - and didn't get paid for it. I jacked up the Command Master Chief of the base, so I guess that makes me an equal opportunity dickhead. And if someone had showed up @ the gate w/ a cock & bull story about taking their personal firearm to the range, they would've been out of their vehicle so fast it would have made their head spin - if they weren't busy looking @ a 9mm diameter hole. Why? B/c the guards @ the gate probably haven't been briefed on the law (I wasn't), and I doubt the range nor the police department has a procedure for allowing civilians to shoot on the range. Given the recent shooting, it's gonna be a big bundle of pain in the arse to get civilians up to the range, and someone might have to threaten to sue the CO. The best place to start is probably the legal department, who will hopefully point out to the CO that he has to comply, and then they'll start writing procedures.

It is a nice range - pistol, shotgun, & rifle capable. Remotely controlled targets - I don't remember if they can be manually controlled. I've inquired about shooting my personal firearms there before, & was told that personal weapons can't be brought on base. The base police force are capable professionals w/ folks from many services working together, and they do a very tough job given the tactical situation.

If someone will find out examples of other bases that do allow civilians & post contact #s for those facilities, I will undertake to go by the range & the police department & see what can be done. The worst case is we would have to form a non-profit & sue them, which would be expensive, time consuming, & not very good for my evals. We might win the lawsuit & then have the Force Protection Level raised on us, which would result in increased costs for the base, ie, the taxpayer, & still no shooting @ the range.

Since it is a Reserve base, very likely no civilian shooting on weekends, except possibly when there are 5 weekends in a month. Then again, that is the Rangemasters only free weekend, so they are justifiably going to want to take it off. The best case is probably going to be M-F 8:00 - 16:00 only.

Gig 'em,

PO2 backbencher USNR
(My opinions are my own, & not those of the US Navy)
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 6:16:29 PM EDT
backbencher,

Well the more I think of it, the only dickhead at the front gate is that husky (NOT FAT) Hispanic female. She will go out of her way to screw with me ... But that’s OK I work for Tarrant County and I will run in to her out in town...

Thank you for posting with your info. With the Force Protection Level and the shooting it will be a cold day in hell before the pistol range will be open for personally owned weapons...
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 6:32:20 PM EDT
Not to get off topic, but what shooting?
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 6:43:54 PM EDT
Shooting?
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 7:54:14 PM EDT
You said, "with the force protection level and the shooting" in your post above???
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 8:01:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jtkeller:
Not to get off topic, but what shooting?



A Sailor tried to commit suicide, two other Sailors tried to intervene and were shot in the process. This happened just a few days ago...
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 8:08:26 PM EDT
Oh, and the the targets can be programmed to turn and move to different ranges after a specified time. I'm not sure if they can be controlled manually, as I've never used it that way.

The range is nice. Fantastic ventilation (don't open both doors to the range at the same time, or you'll crack the window to the control room, the suction is that great!) and very clean facility. Every time I've ever been there has been during working hours, and it's been empty except for my agency. The Marines that work the range are very accomodating (although they're easily perturbed when the targets don't work correctly. They won't blame you, but it's obvious that they want to, even though they say that it happens all the time...) and gun-friendly. If you can get past the gate guards, I think the range staff would be happy to see civilians using their facility. They're anal about cleaning up after yourself, and rightly so. It's a nice pistol range.
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 8:08:39 PM EDT
thanks!
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 10:24:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By backbencher:


If someone will find out examples of other bases that do allow civilians & post contact #s for those facilities, I will undertake to go by the range & the police department & see what can be done. The worst case is we would have to form a non-profit & sue them, which would be expensive, time consuming, & not very good for my evals. We might win the lawsuit & then have the Force Protection Level raised on us, which would result in increased costs for the base, ie, the taxpayer, & still no shooting @ the range.


PO2 backbencher USNR
(My opinions are my own, & not those of the US Navy)



You should check with the guys in the New jersey Hometown forum. They shoot at Ft Dix. Hope this helps
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 6:27:48 AM EDT
kwt,

Thanks for volunteering to secure contact telephone #'s @ Fort Dix. We appreciate your help.

Reading the first letter, it sounds like they know they have to conform w/ the law, but I have my doubts they have procedures to actually handle it. Don't think the rangemasters are in today, but we'll see what they actually say perhaps tomorrow.

Gig 'em,

backbencher
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 7:53:53 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 12:06:57 PM EDT
No personal firearms? Can I check out one of the M16s then?
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 1:56:07 PM EDT
brush,

I'm sure they'd be happy to check out an M-16 to you. But gov't weapons can only be fired w/ gov't ammo - and you as a civilian can't get the gov't to issue you any ammo... Even as a Reservist w/ a qualification requirement, a Lt Com & I couldn't get the gov't to issue our unit any ammo. So we're gonna have to work out an arrangement w/ the base, which involves temporary vehicle permits, & God knows what else, given they'll be hypersensitive about guns @ the moment.

Temporary vehicle permits for the base will require DL & proof of insurance. They're probably not going to want you to walk from the gate w/ an AR-15 over your shoulder :)

Given that they've apparently sucessfully denied access for a long time, I'm thinking a West Fort Worth Shooting Club would be in order. Then when civilians call for access, they could point to us, & we could give 'em the skinny. Ah, the smell of power! Mwu-ha-ha!

PS - range hasn't answered all day - must be snow day @ the base.

Gig 'em,

backbencher
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 3:07:31 PM EDT
wait a second now i'm confused. We can't take personal weapons in. But we can't shoot gov't weapons without gov't ammo, which won't be issued with us then. So what exactly do you shoot there?
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 3:26:59 PM EDT
Now you are getting it. You can't shoot there.

It just like the POW policy. Technically you can have your gun stored at the amory while you are on base. But they will not accept anything but DOD wepons for starage at the amory, so you are fucked.

You also have to remember that the Base range is booked up solid, as far as the last talk I had with the petty officer running it, during the week. And every weekend is a drill weekend so no go there. IIRC they only have two people to run the range. So there is no way civilians are going to shoot ther without some major changes and/or a lawsuit.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 4:59:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By brushdog:
No personal firearms? Can I check out one of the M16s then?



Per OPNAVINST 3591.1D:

c. Issue of Navy weapons or expenditure of Navy ammunition in support of civilian marksmanship training is not authorized.


Also, the letter says very clearly that the range is open Monday - Friday, 8AM - 4PM; so discussing weekends is a moot point. I too would be interested in hearing what the Range Master has to say. But, since backbencher is already attempting the calls, I'll wait for his response (no sense in us all pissing off the Range Master's by calling).

Would really love if someone out in that area, who doesn't work during that time period could actually try and pay a visit to the Range. Let's see what really happens, end all of the speculation, and then go from there. I'd do it, but I'm north of Dallas and work during the day.
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 6:49:16 AM EDT
Zulu, et al:

Just spoke w/ a rather surprised PO Zavala @ the range - his understanding is the range is for government agencies only. I urged him to contact Lt Cdr Kile, and told him we would be willing to form a shooting club if necessary. He will call me back @ some point - doubtless after ringing my command & asking them what in the Sam Hill do I think I'm doing :)

Drew - the range will perfectly happy to accomodate you w/ your full automatic spitwad straw :)

FYI - I refered PO Zavala to this thread, so mind your manners, folks.

Gig 'em,

backbencher
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 7:33:34 AM EDT
Zulu,

Forgot to add - I may be able to swing by the range Tuesday - I heartily suggest no one shows up @ the gate w/ a gun, lest the aforementioned staring @ a 9mm hole.

Good news - AO1 Maso just rang me back. He's booked two months in advance, but willing to entertain a shooting club. We'll have to sign a memorandum of understanding that relieves the gov't of all liability, & then the CO of the base will sign off on the whole thing.

So - let's form a shooting club. I'll post a thread, & those of y'all on other forums invite your friends. There will be dues.

Gig 'em,

backbencher
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 7:43:02 AM EDT
The new thread is here:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=8&t=217344&page=1

Gig 'em,

backbencher
Link Posted: 12/10/2005 5:32:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By backbencher:
The new thread is here:

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=8&t=217344&page=1



Made it hot...
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 2:51:17 PM EDT
I'm friends with the base PD Chief. I'll call Friday AM and get the skinny on getting through the gate, with the CAPT's permission of course. will advise.
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