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Posted: 3/8/2006 9:57:49 AM EDT
http://www.libertybelles.org/articles/shamaya.htm

Sounds like he moved to Michigan and hadn't registered his handguns.
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 11:51:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/8/2006 11:55:52 AM EDT by thebrain]
link

Not much info. I hope he didn't register his firearms on purpose, in order to get a trial, and not out of ignorance.



Link Posted: 3/8/2006 12:11:33 PM EDT
MI sucks with the registering of handguns. i hated to move back to the state and register my unregistered handguns. it was like handing them over to the nazis.

long live states that don't require registration.
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 5:36:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/8/2006 5:37:06 PM EDT by GarrettJ]
Makes me wonder, how does the state decide if you are a "resident" or not? After all, non-residents are not required to register anything.

What about someone who has a residence in both MI another state, and spends their time roughly half in each?
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 6:01:57 PM EDT
It's not a registration it's a safety inspection, I can only assume for the childrenSeriously though, I thought according to the law, their was no real set time limit on when you had to do it, after buying or moving here?
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 9:28:57 AM EDT
People seem to have this big hang up on the reg./safety inspection thing....

Yeah it kinda sucks but seriously...
It could be MUCH worse...

You could live somewhere you cant have Class III
You could live somwhere where you cant have hi cap mags and only preban rifles.
You could live someplace that does not allow a carry permit....

Hell, just think how bad it is for people in NYC or CA.

From what I understand in NY your carry permit tells which handgun you are allowed to carry... Just because you own it there and have a carry permit does not allow you to carry it not THAT IS STUPID!

Yeah, we do not have the best set of laws with firearms in the US but we are FAR from the worse with our laws as well....
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 9:55:39 AM EDT
Yeah, we're standing in sh!t, but it's only up to our armpits!
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 10:02:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/9/2006 10:04:21 AM EDT by JYogi]
Up to our armpits...
Come on... We can't have an SBR and we have to take our handguns in for a safety inspection....

Oh wow that is just ooohhhh so bad. Come on.

People always have to find something to complain about I guess....

(yeah, I always find something to bitch about as well...)

People should take this time they spend bitching about something this small and instead be making an effort to let the people in our state govt know how you feel and try to make changes... That is why we now will be able to own Class III... Try taking the time you use here to complain about registering your handgun and instead write a letter thanking him for all of his efforts in opening our state to Class III and in that letter if the handgun issue is really that big of a deal to you mention it as a final point.

Be thankful for what you have....
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 1:47:33 PM EDT
How many of you know the history behind Michigan's handgun registration laws?
Did you know that we have these laws because a black man shot a white man?
His name was Dr. Ossian Sweet and his case caused the KKK (which was very powerful at thhat time) to pressure our State Legislators to institute the county gun boards and handgun registration.
Here are a few links that tell the story:

http://info.detnews.com/history/story/index.cfm?id=201&category=events

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/FTrials/sweet/sweet.html

The whole handgun registration scheme was designed to keep handguns out of the hands of black people.

Hey, it's not that big of a deal now, is it?

Eliminating handgun registration is a much bigger deal than class III ownership in my opinion.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 7:57:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By anotherlefty:
Eliminating handgun registration is a much bigger deal than class III ownership in my opinion.



+1
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 10:34:33 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 4:36:22 AM EDT
I dunno, you all say that handgun registration isn't a big thing to have to deal with.. Maybe it's just that you have a nicer department to deal with than I have? Prior to getting my CCW, I'd have to jump through their hoops and show up in the middle of the work day, put up with a ration of shit from a non LEO desk jockey about how all I really need for a burglar is a ball-bat, "Oh, and take this test please-it will provide a written record that you know we will fry your ass if you ever fuck up", then finally you are allowed to take your gun home but they won't mail your registration card to your home for another 30 days....

You guys haven't lived in Wixom. I bought 5 pistols in the 10 years I was in that town and every year it was the same thing with the same people. Fuck 'Em.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 5:22:57 AM EDT
btw: I'm glad that those of you who want MGs can now own them......................but, this is only possible because of an AG OPINION that could very easily be overturned by the next AG. I hope that doesn't happen.

One of our Michigan gun rights organizations needs to get behind the registration issue and abolish it.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 5:51:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By anotherlefty:
btw: I'm glad that those of you who want MGs can now own them......................but, this is only possible because of an AG OPINION that could very easily be overturned by the next AG.


Not so fast. Have you read the opinion letter? The AG quotes relavant state case law in support of his opinion. The way the letter was written, it would be difficult to simply overturn, and an overturn would be much easier to challenge.

To take it away again, I think it would be necessary to introduce legislation.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 5:59:02 AM EDT
Yes, I have read it completely. It could still be a costly fight with the wrong AG in office. I hope it doesn't come to that.

I'm also hopeful that Angel will have the backing and the stones to fight the gun registration and win.
(I'm pretty sure he has the stones)
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 7:08:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheOtherDave:
I dunno, you all say that handgun registration isn't a big thing to have to deal with.. Maybe it's just that you have a nicer department to deal with than I have? Prior to getting my CCW, I'd have to jump through their hoops and show up in the middle of the work day, put up with a ration of shit from a non LEO desk jockey about how all I really need for a burglar is a ball-bat, "Oh, and take this test please-it will provide a written record that you know we will fry your ass if you ever fuck up", then finally you are allowed to take your gun home but they won't mail your registration card to your home for another 30 days....

You guys haven't lived in Wixom. I bought 5 pistols in the 10 years I was in that town and every year it was the same thing with the same people. Fuck 'Em.



For a second there, I thought you were talking about Wayne County Sherriff. I bought 2 handguns, when they were handling the gun registratons, for my area. You could only apply for a permit on Tuesday. "Safety inspections" were only done on a Thursday. They did their best to not only to threaten you with prison for any act of self defense with your handgun, but also making you feel like a lowlife for wanting a gun. When I took my guns back for safety inspection, it was done by some guy who was so old, he probably knew the original Sam Colt! He adjusted his glasses, squinted at the gun, wiggled the slide, shrugged his shoulders, and then had somebody read off the serial numbers to him. This usually took about 2-3 hrs. Since the cities and townships have taken it over, it has only improved slightly. The system that Redford has in place, is exactly the same, except now they have fees, plus the cops stand around and gawk at your gun for a while, before filling out the paperwork. All around it does suck, but I am still happy that we arent NY, DC, or IL. The only way we are going to get these laws changed though, is to keep the pressure on our public officials and keep voiting according to our priorities. 10 yrs ago, if you would have posted something about it being possible for MI residents to own MG's or silencers, people would have laughed in your face. It is possible to turn things around, but we all have to get off of our asses and start acting like our forefathers intended us to act. Sure, its going to take a lot of time and patience, but hey....its for the children. [/soapbox]
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 8:40:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/10/2006 8:56:42 AM EDT by jchewie]
OK. So how do we help this guy strike down handgun registration?


I have only registered one pistol with the Kent County Sheriff substation and had as good of an experience that I could have gotten. Walked in at lunch, got the test, got the purchase permit, bought the gun that evening, brought it back the next day, and a secretary - she was NOT a deputy - looked at it, said "This is a nice little handgun", looked at the serial number, and I was on my way.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 6:59:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By anotherlefty:
How many of you know the history behind Michigan's handgun registration laws?
Did you know that we have these laws because a black man shot a white man?
His name was Dr. Ossian Sweet and his case caused the KKK (which was very powerful at thhat time) to pressure our State Legislators to institute the county gun boards and handgun registration.
Here are a few links that tell the story:

http://info.detnews.com/history/story/index.cfm?id=201&category=events

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/FTrials/sweet/sweet.html

The whole handgun registration scheme was designed to keep handguns out of the hands of black people.

Hey, it's not that big of a deal now, is it?

Eliminating handgun registration is a much bigger deal than class III ownership in my opinion.



Thats good intel! Looks like the starting point for an effort to get the "safety inspections" and gun boards eliminated!


Link Posted: 3/10/2006 7:52:42 PM EDT
Another Lefty, thanks for posting that. I'd seen the story but it's been so long I'd forgotten.

Reading the posts here, one thing is obvious. The "safety inspection" is nothing more than a sham registration. It's all about the serial number. I wonder what would happen if they actually registered an unsafe weapon?

I recall my first way back in the 1980's. I had to show the Sherriffs clerk (a civilian woman) how to work the action. Sure made me feel safe.

Many jurisdictions have started to call it what it is. They will have (inconvenient) hours for "registration", not mentioning the "cover story" of safety inspection. We here all pretty much know the sole useful purpose for registration. Perhaps it's time we get it into the courts and out into the open. It would certainly make life a lot simpler for us all if we were to prevail.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 1:06:39 AM EDT
St. clair Shores was pretty good about thier permits and safety inspection hours Tuesday thru friday 8-3:30. Warren's was a pain in the ass. They would only open for a couple of hours a week and one day I was thier I think they stopped at 4pm and there were waiting and at 3:55 the lady was like I am just going to take these 3 and then I am closing. About 4 guys were left after. Its like why give everybody a hard time.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 5:49:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By WolfAmongSheep:

Originally Posted By TheOtherDave:
I dunno, you all say that handgun registration isn't a big thing to have to deal with.. Maybe it's just that you have a nicer department to deal with than I have? Prior to getting my CCW, I'd have to jump through their hoops and show up in the middle of the work day, put up with a ration of shit from a non LEO desk jockey about how all I really need for a burglar is a ball-bat, "Oh, and take this test please-it will provide a written record that you know we will fry your ass if you ever fuck up", then finally you are allowed to take your gun home but they won't mail your registration card to your home for another 30 days....

You guys haven't lived in Wixom. I bought 5 pistols in the 10 years I was in that town and every year it was the same thing with the same people. Fuck 'Em.



For a second there, I thought you were talking about Wayne County Sherriff. I bought 2 handguns, when they were handling the gun registratons, for my area. You could only apply for a permit on Tuesday. "Safety inspections" were only done on a Thursday. They did their best to not only to threaten you with prison for any act of self defense with your handgun, but also making you feel like a lowlife for wanting a gun. When I took my guns back for safety inspection, it was done by some guy who was so old, he probably knew the original Sam Colt! He adjusted his glasses, squinted at the gun, wiggled the slide, shrugged his shoulders, and then had somebody read off the serial numbers to him. This usually took about 2-3 hrs. Since the cities and townships have taken it over, it has only improved slightly. The system that Redford has in place, is exactly the same, except now they have fees, plus the cops stand around and gawk at your gun for a while, before filling out the paperwork. All around it does suck, but I am still happy that we arent NY, DC, or IL. The only way we are going to get these laws changed though, is to keep the pressure on our public officials and keep voiting according to our priorities. 10 yrs ago, if you would have posted something about it being possible for MI residents to own MG's or silencers, people would have laughed in your face. It is possible to turn things around, but we all have to get off of our asses and start acting like our forefathers intended us to act. Sure, its going to take a lot of time and patience, but hey....its for the children. [/soapbox]



Yeah, I hear you on Redford's F-'d up registration..

I sold a buddy my Mossberg bullpup a few years ago, and had to take it there to register it. These shotguns are commonly called "mossbergs", but they were made by a shell company Mossberg made called Maveric Arms in order to separate themselves from Evil Guns at the time the Crime Bill was being railroaded through. At any rate, when the fucktard desk officer ran the serial number, it came up as a M.A.'s, just like I told him it would, but he was expecting to have it come up as a Mossberg. Since the action was buried in the stock, he made me take it away, diasassemble it to pieces (the only way to get to the reciever) and bring it back to him. This gun was 10 years old, never fired and unmolested up to that point.

Fuck Redford. I have two buddies who work for that department and they both agree: it sucks.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 5:51:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/11/2006 5:53:09 PM EDT by mikko]

anotherlefty
Member
Joined :: May 2002
Post Number :: 110

MI, USA


User Info IM User Email User Reply Quote
How many of you know the history behind Michigan's handgun registration laws?
Did you know that we have these laws because a black man shot a white man?
His name was Dr. Ossian Sweet and his case caused the KKK (which was very powerful at thhat time) to pressure our State Legislators to institute the county gun boards and handgun registration.
Here are a few links that tell the story:

http://info.detnews.com/history/story/index.cfm?id=201&category=events

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/FTrials/sweet/sweet.html

The whole handgun registration scheme was designed to keep handguns out of the hands of black people.

Hey, it's not that big of a deal now, is it?

Eliminating handgun registration is a much bigger deal than class III ownership in my opinion.



Links made HOT

Link 1

Link 2

POTENTIALLY VERY INTERESTING INFORMATION HERE but I do not see in either of these links how our "saftey inspections" came about as a result of the Sweet incident.

Can the origninal poster. (anotherlefty) or others elaborate?

Thanks
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 7:56:07 PM EDT
Sorry, this link tells the tale of how Dr. Sweet's incident led directly to handgun registration in Michigan:

http://www.lp.org/lpn/9908-guns-racist.html

An excerpt:

"As a consequence of all of this, the Ku Klux Klan -- which operated much more openly in those days -- lobbied for and got the first round of restrictive gun legislation in Michigan. The Public Acts of 1927 included the requirement that citizens obtain government-issued "purchase permits" following mandatory "safety inspections," and even then that the opportunity to legally carry the weapon be granted only at the whim of (unaccountable) county "gun boards."

Following racial unrest in major American cities across the country in the early to mid '60s -- culminating in "the long, hot summer" of 1967 -- the next round of restrictions came from the federal government in the form of the Gun Control Act of 1968. This legislation was actually modeled on the German Weapons Law of 1938 enacted by the Nazi government.

A revealing feature of the contemporary gun control movement has been the persistent drive to ban inexpensive handguns, often disparagingly called "Saturday Night Specials" -- an epithet based on an old racist line that any kind of riotous going-on was a "Niggertown Saturday Night." And, indeed it is pretty obvious that, if not strictly minorities, it is at the very least poor people who are being targeted by a ban on inexpensive weapons. "
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 11:57:59 AM EDT
Anotherlefty's latest link made hot
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 6:22:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TBoneDetroit:
... The "safety inspection" is nothing more than a sham registration. It's all about the serial number. I wonder what would happen if they actually registered an unsafe weapon?
...



Many are sham inspections, as mine was, however my dad inherited my great grandfather's 22 revolver which was made in the 1920s and was worn out after serving as a trapping pistol for half a century. The deputy did actually give it a safety inspection, and asked dad if he was actually going to shoot it. Dad replied No it's an heirloom. The deputy said Good - if you had said yes, I would have had to confiscate it because the cylinder stop is broken and it won't lock as it's being fired.

Link Posted: 3/13/2006 6:28:59 AM EDT
Yeah, good. Confiscate it rather than suggest a gunsmith?
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 10:15:46 AM EDT
Do you people really think the Feds dont have a record of everything you have bought?
Why do you think they have to give all the info when calling in for the supposed background check and that is a federal thing so like it or not you are registered on a Federal level even before you take it into the PD for the supposed safety inspection.

Michigan is just a little more honest about it that the feds, only thing they lie about is calling it a safety inspection....
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 11:37:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By anotherlefty:
Yeah, good. Confiscate it rather than suggest a gunsmith?



Yep, I agree. That said, what are the details of the case, and how do we help?
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 12:50:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JYogi:
Do you people really think the Feds dont have a record of everything you have bought?


I know they don't have a list of everything I own.

I have legally bought guns from individuals in-state (in a free state, that is) where no record is kept of anything.

Funny thing is, crime rates (the supposed reason for registration) are lower in that free state than here in Mi.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 1:10:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JYogi:
Do you people really think the Feds dont have a record of everything you have bought?
Why do you think they have to give all the info when calling in for the supposed background check and that is a federal thing so like it or not you are registered on a Federal level even before you take it into the PD for the supposed safety inspection.

Michigan is just a little more honest about it that the feds, only thing they lie about is calling it a safety inspection....



Not entirely accurate.
The Feds do not have a list of your guns in their posession and when a dealer calls in the background check, the Feds only know that you attempted to purchase a firearm. Thye don't know if you actually completed the purchase or what it is that you bought.
That info is recorded on the form 4473 and it is kept in your dealers file permanently.
It is only accessed if a firearm is used in a crime and they run a trace on that serial number.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 3:11:11 AM EDT
If they confiscate registered firearms as part of some ban (e.g. caliber ban on 5.7x28, etc...) do I have to give back the entire weapon or just the "gun", i.e. the part that has the serial number? technically if they're confiscating guns then they should only need the part that has the serial #. The barrel/sights/trigger parts/etc... are just gun parts or "machine parts".
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 10:31:49 PM EDT
man, you guys are killing me with the Redford slams. Other than the Tuesday only thing for picking up the purchase permit or doing the inspection. (which is better than going to Sheriff's Dept and getting it mailed to you like my wife did) ...there has been no issues with anything I've done there. Including registering two under 30" weapons (one rifle and one shotgun) even when the one came up as still being listed as "stolen" from when I lived in Detroit and the report was never amended 10 years ago! I had more issues dealing with Detroit PD to get that taken care of any dealings with Redford PD.
I did my CCW prints there, the officer that works the records office (Jeff something) is always a nice guy, helpful and courteous. The non-LEO ladies that work the office are also nice. As for some "old guy"...never saw it. As for cops standing around gawking at my gun, never saw it. I check my gun with the desk officer in the lobby, he opened the case and made sure there was no ammo in the gun, and sent me upstairs. Never a second glance or attitude. Even when I brought in my Mossberg 18" with dual pistol grips and heatshield.
When I did my first pistol purchase years ago in Detroit, the female DPD officer was so impressed with my Ruger (Stainless P90) that I thought she was gonna hold me back while she showed it off to other officers.

Fees? Only fees I've paid was for fingerprints for my CCW app. Never paid for a purchase permit. And my last pistol purchase was made with my CCW, so I walked in the following tuesday, showed them the gun, got my green card, and left. Maybe took 1/2 hour out of my day.

Maybe I've had it easy.

No Expert
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 2:53:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GarrettJ:
Makes me wonder, how does the state decide if you are a "resident" or not?

Do you claim the MI Homestead Exemption (determines your property taxes)? If so, try to convince the state that you're NOT a resident (for purposes of failure to register your handguns) and you'll be in for a fun ride from the MI Dept of Treasury (tax fraud).

Where is your driver's license from? You can't have two valid OL's from two different states at the same time.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 2:54:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GDITheman:
MI sucks with the registering of handguns. i hated to move back to the state and register my unregistered handguns. it was like handing them over to the nazis.

Then feel free to pack up and head on down the road to California, Maryland, New Jersey or any of the other "non-sucky" states ... :)
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 2:57:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/19/2006 3:03:09 PM EDT by rbielak]

Originally Posted By blackhawk2000:
Seriously though, I thought according to the law, their was no real set time limit on when you had to do it, after buying or moving here?

MOVING TO MI: Once you establish legal residency (driver's license, electrical service, register your car, etc.), you need to contact your local LE agency and, as Larry the Cable Guy might say, "Git R Done". MCL 28.422, 28.429

From the Michigan State Police website:
15. I have just moved to Michigan from another state. How much time do I have to register my pistols?
MCL 28.422 & MCL 28.429 Upon establishing legal residency, you should immediately contact your local law enforcement agency, pass the basic safety questionnaire, and complete both a License to Purchase and Safety Inspection Certificate.


BUYING A NEW HANDGUN: A MI resident who buys a new handgun has to first get a Permit to Purchase (valid for 10 days) or have his CPL. After purchasing the handgun, he has 10 days to present it to the local LE for "safety inspection". MCL 28.422
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 8:20:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By WolfAmongSheep:

Originally Posted By TheOtherDave:
I dunno, you all say that handgun registration isn't a big thing to have to deal with.. Maybe it's just that you have a nicer department to deal with than I have? Prior to getting my CCW, I'd have to jump through their hoops and show up in the middle of the work day, put up with a ration of shit from a non LEO desk jockey about how all I really need for a burglar is a ball-bat, "Oh, and take this test please-it will provide a written record that you know we will fry your ass if you ever fuck up", then finally you are allowed to take your gun home but they won't mail your registration card to your home for another 30 days....

You guys haven't lived in Wixom. I bought 5 pistols in the 10 years I was in that town and every year it was the same thing with the same people. Fuck 'Em.



here,
Wow I guess I have it good on the west side of the state.I bought 8 hand guns in 3 yrs and not once did anyone threaten me or harass me.Hell the chief of police(who i had run ins with when I was a youth and he was a patrolman)even invited me to join him on the police indoor range!
Guess I'm lucky
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 12:00:23 PM EDT
I can't believe the number of people who have no problem with gun registration?
Amazing. it's easy, so it's ok?
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 2:35:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/20/2006 4:18:21 PM EDT by GarrettJ]

Originally Posted By rbielak:
Do you claim the MI Homestead Exemption (determines your property taxes)? If so, try to convince the state that you're NOT a resident (for purposes of failure to register your handguns) and you'll be in for a fun ride from the MI Dept of Treasury (tax fraud).


Hmmm. I wouldn't know. I'm not going to be here long enough to buy a home, and I'd be afraid of not being able to re-sell anyway. So I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have to pay property taxes on a rental home (that would be the responsibility of the owner).
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 3:23:28 PM EDT
Call the state police and ask.
I am pretty sure MI has the same stance on that as CA if you are going to be here more than 60 days you are a citizen of the state. You will have to pay state taxes on the money you earn here so you will be considered a citizen.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 5:35:30 AM EDT
A friend of mine went to school, rented an apartment, and worked in MI but maintained his legal residence in WV (permanent school address, drivers license, vehicle registration, etc). The state police told him that he did not need to register his handguns.

That said, you know if you are a resident or not, if you don't want to fight the law, as Angel is, register them.

Link Posted: 3/21/2006 9:22:18 AM EDT
calling it a safety inspection is a lie. you don't need all my info if you are inspecting.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 5:31:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JYogi:
People seem to have this big hang up on the reg./safety inspection thing....

Yeah it kinda sucks but seriously...
It could be MUCH worse...

You could live somewhere you cant have Class III
You could live somwhere where you cant have hi cap mags and only preban rifles.
You could live someplace that does not allow a carry permit....

Hell, just think how bad it is for people in NYC or CA.

From what I understand in NY your carry permit tells which handgun you are allowed to carry... Just because you own it there and have a carry permit does not allow you to carry it not THAT IS STUPID!

Yeah, we do not have the best set of laws with firearms in the US but we are FAR from the worse with our laws as well....




I miss Michigan with all my heart except the bullshit gun regs. Seriously, don't buy the "it could be worse" bullshit. You can apply that to any circumstance. If you honestly believe in the second ammendment you wouldn't think the way you do. Gun registration leads to confiscation, period. Maybe not for 20 + years, but it will.

SKD
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