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Posted: 1/13/2006 5:56:29 PM EDT
What are my configuration options? Folder, pistol grip(no stock) Overall length, barrel length etc?

Thanks,

Rob
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 11:12:20 PM EDT
I just registered an 8 shot pump with pistol grip (a shade under 30 inches) as a pistol here. I can now carry it with my CCW if I feel the need....

T Bone (Detroit).
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 3:59:54 PM EDT
Just keep the OAL at least 26" when folded any you should be fine.

As TBone noted, anything under 30" needs to be registered as a "pistol".
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 4:49:12 AM EDT
TBone
Are you sure you can use it as a CCW?

I had that same impression and someone told me even though it is registered as a pistol it cant be carried. I cant recall their reasoning but it may be something to check out.

I never followed up on it myself as I didnt end up buying the shotgun.

I would like to hear a real answer about it as it would kinda be nice to keep something like that ready to go under the seat in my truck.
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 5:49:43 AM EDT
You could allways get an Serbu Super Shorty!

http://www.floridagunexchange.com/images_versions_large/282.jpg
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 6:55:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/15/2006 7:01:42 AM EDT by TBoneDetroit]
Deleting my double tap... see below
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 6:59:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/15/2006 6:59:57 AM EDT by TBoneDetroit]

Originally Posted By TBoneDetroit:

Originally Posted By JYogi:
TBone
Are you sure you can use it as a CCW?

I had that same impression and someone told me even though it is registered as a pistol it cant be carried. I cant recall their reasoning but it may be something to check out.

I never followed up on it myself as I didnt end up buying the shotgun.

I would like to hear a real answer about it as it would kinda be nice to keep something like that ready to go under the seat in my truck.



Dang, and I was just thinking of getting one of these Link.................... Jk.

Edit (Oops, link get's home page.... from there, go to shoulder rigs, click on Firepower rig).

Seriously, I don't know what law would prohibit it. There may be one, but I sm unaware of any. I was told affirmative by my local PD gun officer, but based on some other things he told me on various items, I'll discount him as a credible source (wonderful when the guys enforcing the laws don't know the laws...).

Not to hijack the thread, but I'd be interested in any legal eagles take on this as well.

T Bone (Detroit).

Link Posted: 1/15/2006 7:19:06 AM EDT
Rod,
Sorry, no you cant get that in MI even if the AG opinion on MG's go through.
That is an SBR as it has a grip on the front and from everything that has been said we will still not be able to have an SBR in MI. Even without the front grip (it's folded up in the pic for those who didn't see it) it will still be an AOW and I was told we will not be able to use an AOW as a CCW or truck gun here in MI even if we are allowed to have AOW's... Why? I don't know as I am no legal eagle but till I hear otherwise from someone who really knows the laws I am going to error on the idea of being too careful


Originally Posted By RodMI:
You could allways get an Serbu Super Shorty!

http://www.floridagunexchange.com/images_versions_large/282.jpg

Link Posted: 1/15/2006 7:21:32 AM EDT
Rob

They are just the same as with a rifle.
Same as an AR, 16 in barrel & OAL of 30.

If under 30 they must be registered as a pistol (cant be under 26) if between 26 and 30 they cant have a VFG as it becomes a SBR.

Link Posted: 1/15/2006 2:52:57 PM EDT
Reasons I think my Ithaca would be legal as CCW....

1. It is NOT an AOW or SBR. By Federal law, it is simply a shotgun.
2. By state law, it is a legal pitol.
3. I am licensed by the state to carry a concelaed pistol.

Now that said, I really don't see where I'd benefit from carrying this (though I love the freedom to do so). I think the 1911's and/or 9MM Glocks will likely do the trick.

I don't wish to spend thousands proving my right to carry an unconventional pistol such as my riot gun, then again, if I were certain it were legal, I might be tempted to throw it in the trunk, just in case....

Still would love to see a legal argument for or against carrying something the state considers a pistol though....

Getting back to the original post in the thread, I think we've demonstrated we can have a shotgun between 26 and 30 inches.

T Bone (Detroit).
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 3:12:36 PM EDT
We can own a shotgun between 26 and 30 in if registered as a pistol thats not in question.

I am just saying I was told at a couple gun shops, by my local LE and the LE who taught my CPL class even those are registered as pistols they still arent considered a handgun which is what your CCW allows you to carry.

As I said, this is just what I have been told.
I would love to hear the opposite from someone who really knows.
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 5:26:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JYogi:
Rod,
Sorry, no you cant get that in MI even if the AG opinion on MG's go through.
That is an SBR as it has a grip on the front and from everything that has been said we will still not be able to have an SBR in MI. Even without the front grip (it's folded up in the pic for those who didn't see it) it will still be an AOW and I was told we will not be able to use an AOW as a CCW or truck gun here in MI even if we are allowed to have AOW's... Why? I don't know as I am no legal eagle but till I hear otherwise from someone who really knows the laws I am going to error on the idea of being too careful


Originally Posted By RodMI:
You could allways get an Serbu Super Shorty!

http://www.floridagunexchange.com/images_versions_large/282.jpg




Actually, since those do not have a stock, they are considered an AOW and ARE legal in Michigan. AOW's and DD's have always been legal here.

Kris
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 6:00:25 PM EDT
1) They have a VFG which makes them a SBR rifle yet in MI SBR is illegal (as is AOW). In MI a pistol can not have a VFG.

2) In MI anything over 30 in is a rifle.
Anything between 26 and 30 in has to be registered as a pistol (yet from what I have been told they can't be carried as a pistol, but this is not confirmed)

3) I think you may want to check that over as its been made pretty clear in the MG threads that a AOW is not legal nor will the new paperwork by the AG make them legal.

4) Lastly when this whole MG thing first started I asked around about AOW's as at first it was thought this would allow us to have an AOW and I was told even if we are allowed AOW's which we would not be it would still be illegal to use this for a carry piece.

I do not know any of this as 100% fact BUT it seems to be what everyone else has agreed with. If you have proof this is incorrect please show us where the information is. I would love ot be able to keep a shorty shotgun in my truck but it is going to take a little more than someone just saying it is legal to do so, I think we need to see exactly where it is written we can have them and carry them.




Originally Posted By shop_rat45:

Originally Posted By JYogi:
Rod,
Sorry, no you cant get that in MI even if the AG opinion on MG's go through.
That is an SBR as it has a grip on the front and from everything that has been said we will still not be able to have an SBR in MI. Even without the front grip (it's folded up in the pic for those who didn't see it) it will still be an AOW and I was told we will not be able to use an AOW as a CCW or truck gun here in MI even if we are allowed to have AOW's... Why? I don't know as I am no legal eagle but till I hear otherwise from someone who really knows the laws I am going to error on the idea of being too careful


Originally Posted By RodMI:
You could allways get an Serbu Super Shorty!

http://www.floridagunexchange.com/images_versions_large/282.jpg




Actually, since those do not have a stock, they are considered an AOW and ARE legal in Michigan. AOW's and DD's have always been legal here.

Kris

Link Posted: 1/15/2006 6:47:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/15/2006 6:48:42 PM EDT by shop_rat45]

Originally Posted By JYogi:
1) They have a VFG which makes them a SBR rifle yet in MI SBR is illegal (as is AOW). In MI a pistol can not have a VFG.

2) In MI anything over 30 in is a rifle.
Anything between 26 and 30 in has to be registered as a pistol (yet from what I have been told they can't be carried as a pistol, but this is not confirmed)

3) I think you may want to check that over as its been made pretty clear in the MG threads that a AOW is not legal nor will the new paperwork by the AG make them legal.

4) Lastly when this whole MG thing first started I asked around about AOW's as at first it was thought this would allow us to have an AOW and I was told even if we are allowed AOW's which we would not be it would still be illegal to use this for a carry piece.

I do not know any of this as 100% fact BUT it seems to be what everyone else has agreed with. If you have proof this is incorrect please show us where the information is. I would love ot be able to keep a shorty shotgun in my truck but it is going to take a little more than someone just saying it is legal to do so, I think we need to see exactly where it is written we can have them and carry them.




Originally Posted By shop_rat45:

Originally Posted By JYogi:
Rod,
Sorry, no you cant get that in MI even if the AG opinion on MG's go through.
That is an SBR as it has a grip on the front and from everything that has been said we will still not be able to have an SBR in MI. Even without the front grip (it's folded up in the pic for those who didn't see it) it will still be an AOW and I was told we will not be able to use an AOW as a CCW or truck gun here in MI even if we are allowed to have AOW's... Why? I don't know as I am no legal eagle but till I hear otherwise from someone who really knows the laws I am going to error on the idea of being too careful


Originally Posted By RodMI:
You could allways get an Serbu Super Shorty!

http://www.floridagunexchange.com/images_versions_large/282.jpg




Actually, since those do not have a stock, they are considered an AOW and ARE legal in Michigan. AOW's and DD's have always been legal here.

Kris




Straight from Serbu's website:



The SUPER-SHORTY is based on a Mossberg Maverick (also available on 500 or 590 at additional cost) 12-gauge shotgun which came from the factory with a pistol grip. Because of this, the SUPER-SHORTY is considered an AOW (Any Other Weapon) and can be transferred with a $5 stamp!




Any pistol with a forward grip is considered an AOW. Since the Serbu started with a pistol grip, it's not considered a Short Barreled Shotgun.
Allowing AOW's and DD's in Michigan is not a new thing. They have beem legal all along. In fact, the Class3 dealer in lapeer has sold AOW's for a while now and even tried to get me to buy one. The new MG opinion did not affect this.
As for the 26"-30" classification, you are correct. I don't know for sure if you can carry it as a pistol though. I'd like to find out though.

Kris
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 8:32:28 PM EDT
Hmm interesting so I guess I was wrong and we can have a AOW but I have always heard we cant.

Either way I still do not think you can carry it or keep it in your car even if you have the stamp.

If someone knows the answer to that I would LOVE to hear it.

Id also like to hear the status of carrying a 26-30 in rifle registered as a pistol.

Link Posted: 1/15/2006 9:26:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JYogi:


Id also like to hear the status of carrying a 26-30 in rifle registered as a pistol.




This is the one that interests me the most (for obvious reasons) but instead of wanting someone to show me the law that says I can (an affirmative law) I'd like someone to show me where I can't (much more likely to exist).

The real question is, does Michigan have two definitions for pistol? They've licensed me to carry them. They've made one of my shotguns one by their definition. So to prohibit my carrying it, there must be a written law somewhere (let's not give them any ideas...). I bet they've not thought of it! Sure would like to do some research, but I am sort of clueless where to begin *(without simply asking the powers that be, which might tempt them to make administrative law.....).

T Bone (Detroit).
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 3:19:40 AM EDT
A good start would be on the website of the Michigan Office of the Attorney General. There's a link there to the compiled firearms laws for the state of MI. According to the definition of a shotgun that I read (MCL 750.222; MSA 28.419) a shotgun is a "firearm....intended to be fired from the shoulder". In the absence of a buttstock, a pistol grip only shotgun (or other weapon) does not fit this definition. Now, if the barrel length is 18 inches or greater AND the overall length is 26 inches or greater then it clearly does not fit the definition of a short barrel shotgun. The definition of a pistol, according to MCL 28.421; MSA 28.91 and MCL 28.422; MSA28.92, covers firearms that are fully operable when they are less than 30 inches in length. All of this can be found in Opinion 6280 of the Michigan Attorney General. While I consider this to be as credible as anything, I don't guarantee it personally. But I would like to legally carry a loaded 29" pistol gripped 12 guage in my car when I travel (with my CPL of course).
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