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Posted: 1/27/2006 2:51:15 PM EDT
Same money...

M16 or HK Sear.

The M16 is great, the HK has so many different guns it fits in.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 3:09:25 PM EDT
Sell the Caddy and get both!

Personally, I'd get the M16 one. You can easily pull "cheap" uppers in 9, .45, 5.56, .308 of various lengths.

The H&K, well you've seen Pat's shop. Very cool stuff. But a bit harder to obtain I'd think.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 3:12:58 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 3:15:15 PM EDT
At least sell the Caddy.

I vote for the M16 RR. and a bunch of uppers and mag-wells. Can you say FA AR pistol? Oh yeah!
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 3:37:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/27/2006 3:41:18 PM EDT by WS4LIF]

Originally Posted By NoAim:
Sell the Caddy and get both!

Personally, I'd get the M16 one. You can easily pull "cheap" uppers in 9, .45, 5.56, .308 of various lengths.

The H&K, well you've seen Pat's shop. Very cool stuff. But a bit harder to obtain I'd think.



45cal and 308 are not options with the M16.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 3:49:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WS4LIF:

Originally Posted By NoAim:
Sell the Caddy and get both!

Personally, I'd get the M16 one. You can easily pull "cheap" uppers in 9, .45, 5.56, .308 of various lengths.

The H&K, well you've seen Pat's shop. Very cool stuff. But a bit harder to obtain I'd think.



45cal and 308 are not options with the M16.



Is not the trigger group the same?
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 3:55:00 PM EDT
(CavARMS Lower and 308 lower) doesn't equal (5.56 lower)
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 3:56:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WS4LIF:
(CavARMS Lower and 308 lower) doesn't equal (5.56 lower)



I understand that, but if I'm right, it's the "sear" that's the registered part?
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 4:12:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NoAim:

Originally Posted By WS4LIF:
(CavARMS Lower and 308 lower) doesn't equal (5.56 lower)



I understand that, but if I'm right, it's the "sear" that's the registered part?



Not if you buy a registered RECEIVER. Could get a RDIAS. Then maybe a bunch of crap to build around it.

Buy one of those multi-magwell lowers, and have a blast.

BTW: Doesn't Mr45 have a .45 ACP AR. Pretty sure he does. In fact I shot it. And I want one.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 4:35:44 PM EDT
One vote for the HK sear for it's versatility among so many guns.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 5:41:58 PM EDT
M16
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 7:09:03 PM EDT
Hmmmm.....tough question.....multiple caliber uppers with one lower, or multiple caliber rifles with one trigger group.....I would think the M16 would be more cost effective for you in the long run though, considering how much AR crap....er, stuff you have now. If starting from scratch however, I think it's about a toss up. Wish I had this dilemma...
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 7:40:11 PM EDT
IF you Buy an RR you can also get a 7.62x39 upper and that is a blast to shoot.

But if you look at what Pys.Eric has or DeanH the HK drop in sear only takes about 10 minutes to switch from one gun to the next.

Both are very good investments, but I think the HK will be worth more in the end. So I'd say go HK.

Link Posted: 1/27/2006 8:59:19 PM EDT
M16
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 9:18:22 PM EDT
From what little I know, I would go with the M16. I remember DeanB at one or shoots
emptying a mag, swapping in a new upper, adding the bolt carrier and you are back in
business.

The only downside is that I believe you would be limited to .223 only, but I am not
a .308 fan, so take it for what it is worth.

My $0.02 worth,

Spambo
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 10:31:37 PM EDT
Get what YOU want! My HK sear I like and in the last 5 years I've got 12 different guns it can fit . Same caliber pack = less than 1 minute. Swap calibers = 3 minutes tops. The trick is to get them to all run well because of the different shelf heights = timing. Just ask Rob he is now learning this. Just get one before they increase in price anymore. Eric
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 10:52:40 PM EDT
Eric, if I could buy/build your guns I'd get an HK! But you stingy bastard won't make em for us lowly peons!
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 12:46:30 AM EDT
AR = Cadilacs and HK= Mercedes Benz.. I know you are a Cadilac man so I'd leave the Benz's for the Upper class.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 3:08:02 AM EDT
If I had it to do over again, I'd give more thought to an M16 RDIAS. It has a little more verastility over a RR with all the cool lowers coming out. From what I've read I don't think I'll be using any pistol cal besides 22 in my M16. Unless Marty TW works out a gas operated 10mm. I still love my M16, from a 22 to 458 (got my upper and the F4for the can is with the ATF) in minutes. You can't do that with an HK. Try to find a 22 conversion for one. Hosts for HK sears are becoming more affordable, but from what I understand they are a bit more maint intensive than the M16 platform.

On the other hand, belt fed isn't vaporware and you can go 308. If you're lucky and have deep pockets, 223 belt fed is rumored to be obtainable and is supposed to be super sweet. If you're more into pistol calibers it's better. There are a couple of indoor ranges that allow pistol cal full auto, but not 223, so if you don't feel like driving out to the pit to shoot you don't have to.

I've got 2 MGs, no HKs. It's about 3 down the list, depending on what I get next.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 6:57:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Gunkata:
AR = Cadilacs and HK= Mercedes Benz.. I know you are a Cadilac man so I'd leave the Benz's for the Upper class.



So they both fall apart in 3-4 years of regular use?
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 7:14:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NoAim:

Originally Posted By Gunkata:
AR = Cadilacs and HK= Mercedes Benz.. I know you are a Cadilac man so I'd leave the Benz's for the Upper class.



So they both fall apart in 3-4 years of regular use?



How does getting stuck in the snow factor into this?
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 7:20:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Unka-Boo:
Wish I had this dilemma...



I hear ya!

I would lean towards the M16.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 7:54:28 AM EDT
For me it would be the 16 (or RDIAS). I don't own any HK rifles but do own a lot of ar15's and know the design well. I know almost nothing of the HK and don' own even one mag, which brings up another point. To switch to HK would mean a huge investment in mags, parts and rifles to get to equal what I already now have in AR15 gear. YMMV.

Like psycho E said, get what you want. Like the hive mind says, get both and problems solved. look at is as an investment. take some 401(k) to help fund them
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 8:07:46 AM EDT
I don't consider RDIAS real guns.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 9:24:32 AM EDT
but a HK sear is?
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 5:47:44 PM EDT


but a HK sear is?


It's part of the guns design.....not a hoky add on aftermarket peice.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 9:37:01 PM EDT
Why don't you bring your HK Sear east and we'll swap for a while and compare.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 5:28:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By WS4LIF:

but a HK sear is?


It's part of the guns design.....not a hoky add on aftermarket peice.



The way I understand it, a registered sear is not part of the original design, but an added on piece to perform the same function. Just like a DIAS.

HK Convesions
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 5:49:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By azathoth:

Originally Posted By WS4LIF:

but a HK sear is?


It's part of the guns design.....not a hoky add on aftermarket peice.



The way I understand it, a registered sear is not part of the original design, but an added on piece to perform the same function. Just like a DIAS.

HK Convesions



Link Posted: 2/2/2006 7:03:25 PM EDT

The way I understand it, a registered sear is not part of the original design, but an added on piece to perform the same function. Just like a DIAS.


Incorrect.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 8:02:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WS4LIF:

The way I understand it, a registered sear is not part of the original design, but an added on piece to perform the same function. Just like a DIAS.


Incorrect.



+1
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 9:31:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/2/2006 9:31:39 PM EDT by EKinOR]
Having owned numerous machine guns and currently owning a number, if I could only get one thing, it would be an RDIAS. A year ago, I would have said get an RR M16, but with the MGI/Stag interchangable magwell lower, I think the RDIAS is the way to go now.

The HK sear is cool, but the the host guns are so damn expensive.

RE: HK sears, they're really no different than an RDIAS. Both sit in the factory auto sear position, both work like the factory auto sear, but both are build slightly different than the factory auto sear. Neither an HK sear gun nor an AR-15 with an RDIAS are 100% factory full-auto configuration.

Link Posted: 2/2/2006 9:49:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By EKinOR:
Having owned numerous machine guns and currently owning a number, if I could only get one thing, it would be an RDIAS. A year ago, I would have said get an RR M16, but with the MGI/Stag interchangable magwell lower, I think the RDIAS is the way to go now.

The HK sear is cool, but the the host guns are so damn expensive.

RE: HK sears, they're really no different than an RDIAS. Both sit in the factory auto sear position, both work like the factory auto sear, but both are build slightly different than the factory auto sear. Neither an HK sear gun nor an AR-15 with an RDIAS are 100% factory full-auto configuration.




Good point.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 9:51:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Cape_hunter:

Originally Posted By WS4LIF:

The way I understand it, a registered sear is not part of the original design, but an added on piece to perform the same function. Just like a DIAS.


Incorrect.



+1



"...almost all of the fully transferable H&K type machine guns available for purchase by individuals are those guns converted from semi-automatic versions originally imported as Title I guns, since only a very, very few of the factory original machine guns were ever imported prior to GCA ‘68"

So what is the difference between an HK sear and a AR15 sear? Sounds to me that both are converts of semi to MG.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 9:58:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WS4LIF:

but a HK sear is?


It's part of the guns design.....not a hoky add on aftermarket peice.




Link Posted: 2/2/2006 10:05:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By munkalido:

Originally Posted By Cape_hunter:

Originally Posted By WS4LIF:

The way I understand it, a registered sear is not part of the original design, but an added on piece to perform the same function. Just like a DIAS.


Incorrect.



+1



"...almost all of the fully transferable H&K type machine guns available for purchase by individuals are those guns converted from semi-automatic versions originally imported as Title I guns, since only a very, very few of the factory original machine guns were ever imported prior to GCA ‘68"

So what is the difference between an HK sear and a AR15 sear? Sounds to me that both are converts of semi to MG.



Apples and oranges me thinks.
The question was if the hk sear was part of the original design which it was. The fact that few were imported was never the issue.

On the AR15, the DIAS and RLL are for converting but the original M16 design was a simple sear.

confused yet?
CH
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 10:48:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/2/2006 10:50:32 PM EDT by munkalido]

Originally Posted By Cape_hunter:

Originally Posted By munkalido:

Originally Posted By Cape_hunter:

Originally Posted By WS4LIF:

The way I understand it, a registered sear is not part of the original design, but an added on piece to perform the same function. Just like a DIAS.


Incorrect.



+1



"...almost all of the fully transferable H&K type machine guns available for purchase by individuals are those guns converted from semi-automatic versions originally imported as Title I guns, since only a very, very few of the factory original machine guns were ever imported prior to GCA ‘68"

So what is the difference between an HK sear and a AR15 sear? Sounds to me that both are converts of semi to MG.



Apples and oranges me thinks.
The question was if the hk sear was part of the original design which it was. The fact that few were imported was never the issue.

On the AR15, the DIAS and RLL are for converting but the original M16 design was a simple sear.

confused yet?
CH



Huh?

Have you read the link above posted by azathoth? I find it very clear that to have an HK MG you are need something not made by HK (unless you're buying a rare pre '68 import) but rather a title II manufactured part(s) to convert a semi... same as a AR15 RDIAS. Not just an HK sear, this is due to HK specifically manufacturing their semi versions different than the MG versions so as to complicate conversion.

Am I missing something or is the HK MG the same as a AR15 MG, both containing "hoky aftermarket add on", none of which are factory designed rather being a title II manufactures design. Additionally, the RDIAS and LL for AR15 are pretty straight forward designs and rather uniform whereas the HK has many different ways to convert to MG (furthuring itself down the hokey path )



Link Posted: 2/2/2006 11:14:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/2/2006 11:14:31 PM EDT by PromptCritical]

Originally Posted By munkalido:

Huh?

Have you read the link above posted by azathoth? I find it very clear that to have an HK MG you are need something not made by HK (unless you're buying a rare pre '68 import) but rather a title II manufactured part(s) to convert a semi... same as a AR15 RDIAS. Not just an HK sear, this is due to HK specifically manufacturing their semi versions different than the MG versions so as to complicate conversion.

Am I missing something or is the HK MG the same as a AR15 MG, both containing "hoky aftermarket add on", none of which are factory designed rather being a title II manufactures design. Additionally, the RDIAS and LL for AR15 are pretty straight forward designs and rather uniform whereas the HK has many different ways to convert to MG (furthuring itself down the hokey path )






Although I have close to zero knowledge of the workings of HK conversions (or HK anything for that matter), I am fairly versed on the different F/A AR incarnations, mainly because it's easier since there are only three.

Registered receiver: An AR receiver drilled and cut to accept standard M16 parts. Pretty straightforward. Uses actual M16 parts in the intended configuration.

Registered Drop In Auto Sear: Single component that exactly mimics auto sear in M16, but can be installed without modifications to host receiver. When installed with the rest of the M16 parts, functions just like M16. If you wanna change guns, you just take the parts out and put them in the new gun. Often, shims must be added to get the timing right, but pretty much drop in.

Registered Lightning Link: Little can-opener looking doo hickey that trips the hammer of an AR when the bolt locks home. Literally drop in, but usually requires Colt SP1 bolt carrier to work.

There is also the matter of some RR's "married" to unregistered DIAS's which is much like the guns listed in the Hk article. I wouldn't wanna even touch those. Too much liability.

I'm sure I messed up something, but that is the basic idea.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 6:19:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/3/2006 6:20:34 AM EDT by Cape_hunter]

Originally Posted By munkalido:
Huh?

Have you read the link above posted by azathoth? I find it very clear that to have an HK MG you are need something not made by HK (unless you're buying a rare pre '68 import) but rather a title II manufactured part(s) to convert a semi... same as a AR15 RDIAS. Not just an HK sear, this is due to HK specifically manufacturing their semi versions different than the MG versions so as to complicate conversion.

Am I missing something or is the HK MG the same as a AR15 MG, both containing "hoky aftermarket add on", none of which are factory designed rather being a title II manufactures design. Additionally, the RDIAS and LL for AR15 are pretty straight forward designs and rather uniform whereas the HK has many different ways to convert to MG (furthuring itself down the hokey path )





Yes I have read it, long before it was posted here.

However the question was "is the sear part of the guns design" which it is. The OTHER mods are modifications needed to get current semi guns to use the SAME sear as the origianal HK machine gun.

On the AR15 machine gun it really depends on the conversion. They can be drilled and assemble to be EXACTLY like the factory m16.

CH

Link Posted: 2/3/2006 8:15:45 AM EDT
How much do these things cost?
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 8:39:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/3/2006 8:53:39 AM EDT by PromptCritical]

Originally Posted By OregonARfan:
How much do these things cost?



How much you got?

M16 RR: $10,000
RDIAS: $9,000
RLL: $8,000

HK MG's: $11,000-$15000

Rough estimates, but you get the idea...

ETA: My estimates were a bit low: Examples
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 8:43:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Cape_hunter:

However the question was "is the sear part of the guns design" which it is. The OTHER mods are modifications needed to get current semi guns to use the SAME sear as the origianal HK machine gun.



It's not that easy. There are many ways to convert a HK semi to a MG. To name some (but not all?);

a) unaltered original SEF pack for push pin mounting (of semi gun)

b) converted original factory machine gun pack adapted to fit a clip-on mounting (of semi gun).

c) converted (semi) pack using a registered sear,

d) registered receiver - unmodified clip-on style receivers NFA registered as a “machine gun”, and then proceeding to attach a normal factory original MG select-fire, fire control pack and housing that had both been suitably modified together to clip-on attachment

As "d" isn't really a conversion part but a RR with unregistered parts, we won't really discuss it but it's worth mentioning as someone could buy such a gun believing they could take out the pack and install it in another gun - which would be unlawful.

The original question wasn't just a factory 'sear' but rather the reliability differences between a AR15 RDIAS and HK "sear", the RDIAS being "Hokey" and not "really" a rifle. My contention is to buy a HK "sear" or a AR15 "DIAS" is the same, apple and apples (buying a HK sear vs. M16 is apples and oranges) as you are modifying a semi to shoot like a MG

Problem with the HK “sear” is you have different styles requiring different modifications to the host weapon. My understanding with the AR15 DIAS is the only thing you have to worry about is a sear block (which few AR's have). That being said I personally find the HK "sear", having different degrees of modification, more "hokey" than the straight forward AR15 RDIAS.

Furthermore, to get into the realm of buying and HK "sear" is taking a chance of buying junk or outright unlawful parts if you are not fully versed in the different types out there and NFA's rulings on them.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 9:16:04 AM EDT
hk sears and M16 RR are about the same price today.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 9:26:37 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 9:36:42 AM EDT
I don't understand what your saying.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 9:39:05 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 10:08:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/3/2006 10:23:38 AM EDT by Cape_hunter]

Originally Posted By munkalido:

Originally Posted By Cape_hunter:

However the question was "is the sear part of the guns design" which it is. The OTHER mods are modifications needed to get current semi guns to use the SAME sear as the origianal HK machine gun.



It's not that easy. There are many ways to convert a HK semi to a MG. To name some (but not all?);

a) unaltered original SEF pack for push pin mounting (of semi gun)Original sear

b) converted original factory machine gun pack adapted to fit a clip-on mounting (of semi gun). Original sear

c) converted (semi) pack using a registered sear, Original sear

d) registered receiver - unmodified clip-on style receivers NFA registered as a “machine gun”, and then proceeding to attach a normal factory original MG select-fire, fire control pack and housing that had both been suitably modified together to clip-on attachment

As "d" isn't really a conversion part but a RR with unregistered parts, we won't really discuss it but it's worth mentioning as someone could buy such a gun believing they could take out the pack and install it in another gun - which would be unlawful.

The original question wasn't just a factory 'sear' but rather the reliability differences between a AR15 RDIAS and HK "sear", the RDIAS being "Hokey" and not "really" a rifle. No the question was if it was part of the origianl design. Go back and read the exchange between you and mike that started this..."Ws4lif- I dont consider RDIAS real guns" - "You - and HK seras are?" - "WS4LIF-It's part of the guns design.....not a hoky add on aftermarket peice. My contention is to buy a HK "sear" or a AR15 "DIAS" is the same, apple and apples (buying a HK sear vs. M16 is apples and oranges) as you are modifying a semi to shoot like a MGYes we are CURRENTLY converting semis to full with the parts, but again, that is not the question at hand

Problem with the HK “sear” is you have different styles requiring different modifications to the host weapon. My understanding with the AR15 DIAS is the only thing you have to worry about is a sear block (which few AR's have)Wrong, you also need a different hammer and m16 bolt . That being said I personally find the HK "sear", having different degrees of modification, more "hokey" than the straight forward AR15 RDIAS.Go back and read NOHAIRs reply on what it takes to switch it around. He clearly states that it takes little time to switch between guns and that there are some issues to work around.

Furthermore, to get into the realm of buying and HK "sear" is taking a chance of buying junk or outright unlawful parts if you are not fully versed in the different types out there and NFA's rulings on them.



[sigh]
What are you getting at? There are many ways to mod an AR to FA as well. But a RDIAS is an AFTER THOUGHT to make a SEMI AUTO fire FULL AUTO. THe Sear in the HK trigger pack is part of the ORIGINAL DESIGN and not and after thought LIKE THE RDIAS. Its not the same. One is of the origianl desgn, one an after thought and backdoor to full auto. It really is that simple.

Ask yourself simple question;

Is the RDIAS what shipped in the m16?
Is the sear in the HK FA trigger pack the same as the one shipped in the G3?

It IS that simple.

Where you are heading with your argument is valid but NOT what was being asked nor what I replied to.

ETA: Thats it I am done.... I dont have time to type the same thing over and over....
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 10:32:09 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 10:46:25 AM EDT

How much you got?

M16 RR: $10,000
RDIAS: $9,000
RLL: $8,000

HK MG's: $11,000-$15000

Rough estimates, but you get the idea...

Nevermind on that one. (unless I win powerball tomorrow)
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 10:55:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By OregonARfan:
How much you got?

M16 RR: $10,000
RDIAS: $9,000
RLL: $8,000

HK MG's: $11,000-$15000

Rough estimates, but you get the idea...

Nevermind on that one. (unless I win powerball tomorrow)



You can sometimes find 9mm MAC's for as little as $2500.

Good rule of thumb: If the semi-auto variant is fairly common (no extra collector value), multiply the value by ten to get the cost of the transferrable MG version.

Exceptions are historical or rare guns with collectors value, and the FNC (MG costs about 3 times SA version since MG not in demand as much, but the host guns for the sears are kindof rare).

Someday....
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 11:35:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Cape_hunter:


Is the sear in the HK FA trigger pack the same as the one shipped in the G3? No. During the time when these were being converted the factory parts were difficult and expensive to get
It IS that simple. It's not. Too many variations

Where you are heading with your argument is valid but NOT what was being asked nor what I replied to. That a RDIAS is not more hokey than the mirad of conversions for the HK (non factory mind you)
A: Thats it I am done.... I dont have time to type the same thing over and over....
Where's the love?

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