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Posted: 1/17/2006 9:26:50 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 9:55:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2006 9:57:41 AM EDT by NoAim]
While I did not participate in this last one, I'll detail my ammo selection:

Using the AK (7.62x39):
- Wolf Copper Jacket HP (123 grain). Used it at the night match and it was very smoky.
- Cheetah brass cased (122 grain). I've had some past issues with this, but I'm unsure if it's the ammo or the mags.

Using the AR (have not tried it yet):
- Black Hills Blue Box 55gr.
- Black Hills Blue Box 75gr. if needed (doubt it).

I was getting about 2MOA with the EoTech at 50 yards (red dot on red target...DUH) with the new 14.5" and the 55gr. I use 52gr. Match in my 20". I've never had any problems with the stuff, and it's the second cheapest stuff you can get besides Wolf. Although it can be a *bit* smoky and Nox says it smells funny.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 10:04:06 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 10:17:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2006 10:18:14 AM EDT by NoAim]

Originally Posted By petagunner:
You always treat your shootin buddies like that?


Well, for whatever reason, he always ends up sitting to the right of me at the range. He's my human brass deflector (the new AR shoots brass straight out the side).
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 10:25:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2006 10:26:33 AM EDT by ilike9s]
XM193 for the AR and CorBON 124grn for the Nine.

I think the lucky people who run the stage first get the best results. After all we are shooting in a gravel pit and all the misses add up to debre in the tagets. Something we as a group should think about, is running out and testing then painting the targets. Might help some of us marginal hitters.

But Peta_g because you're in the top ten STFU.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 10:29:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 10:57:10 AM EDT
I didn't seem to have any problems moving the targets; when I got a hit it moved. I'm using PMC 55gr FMJs that I picked up at Phoenix Armory. No issues with them, and I haven't found any loose primers either. BSW
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 11:02:12 AM EDT
Ya those targets are a bitch to see the hits. Some time I herd a clank and the ornge moved up only slightly. Then I herd a higher piched clink and the ornge moved slightly more than the clank.
As for my ammo I was shooting Olympic -Greek ammo and wolf on the first stage. Alot fo people say they have problems with the Olympic but it shoots great for me. And wolf is what it is.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 11:03:46 AM EDT
Being that I did RO a few times....and am probably guilty of not calling a few........I would think that in the future, maybe have someone with a set of binoculars be designated to call hits....would make it a little easier on the RO, as there would be less things to do at once....just a thought.
And, yes......223 doesn't allways move the target enough to get a flash, even if it's a direct hit.


As far as ammo...........7.62 Wolf copper jacket this last match.....55 gr Montana guys relaods for the AR ( and been pretty happy with it so far... )
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 11:25:20 AM EDT
Petagunner - you're right it was Remington UMC (green/white box). Weird that you had those stray primers in there...is that what a "flat primer" is?

I have some left over so I'll run it through my AR to see if the same thing happens.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 11:54:07 AM EDT
The 6” plates used at Practical Rifle are relatively light so it does not take much to move them. I don’t think there is such a thing as a marginal hit on them. If you hit an outside edge it should swing more from the increased leverage.

I think what you are observing is a near miss. The whoosh of air disturbs the delicate nature of the target and it swings ever so slightly in the breeze. I saw a few hits called when they were clearly misses. Sometimes gravel splashes up, down, or back, rocks the target a bit and a hit is called.

.22LR at 100 yards is marginal on them, but an outside hit will still cause a visible swing due to leverage, more than some of the “hits” granted by nice ROs.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 11:59:09 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 12:32:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NoAim:
Using the AK (7.62x39):
- Wolf Copper Jacket HP (123 grain). Used it at the night match and it was very smoky.
- Cheetah brass cased (122 grain). I've had some past issues with this, but I'm unsure if it's the ammo or the mags.
<snip>



Ditto. i have had problems with Cheetah but the wolf has been reliable the whole time.

Jess
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 12:34:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By petagunner:

Originally Posted By ilike9s:
XM193 for the AR and CorBON 124grn for the Nine.

I think the lucky people who run the stage first get the best results. After all we are shooting in a gravel pit and all the misses add up to debre in the tagets. Something we as a group should thing about is running out and testing then painting the targets. But Peta_g because you're in the top ten STFU.



Top ten or bottom ten....it doesn't have anything to do with this, I saw a good number of hits on the target that did not rock them enough for the RO to call hit and move on to the next. 7.62 cures that easily, but was looking for a better option for the 5.56. I dont want to have to worry about only hitting those on the upper half or third of the steel to get them to rock back enough to see the orange and move on. The tire stage was a great example of that. WS4LIF and I saw a good number of this as an example and both experienced it as well.




Peta note the little guy, that's jealousy... You mean I could actually make it out of the bottom1/3 if my hits where scored/called correctly?
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 12:37:25 PM EDT
Wolf Steel case .223: Worked pretty good, except with the Beta-Mag. Under-powered.

UMC 9mm 115gr. (I think). Worked great!
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 12:38:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2006 12:46:53 PM EDT by petagunner]
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 1:04:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2006 1:05:28 PM EDT by NoAim]

Originally Posted By petagunner:
And for the record, it is/was shit house luck. If it happens again (top ten) it will be a fluke.

I'm gonna work on the accuracy end of it. I was most impressed with tangofoxtrots .30 cal holes on our last stage and how most of the targets only took 2 pieces of tape to cover. Nice groups, better than the spray and pray I was employing.



Dude, it's already happened twice. Once at the night match, once last match. AND I've seen you shoot the M1A at the last shoot. Every shot but one rang the gong. Don't knock yourself too hard.

I would say, "well I guess those redneck boys really can shoot!", but then Cape doesn't place that high usually...
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 1:28:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NoAim:

I would say, "well I guess those redneck boys really can shoot!", but then Cape doesn't place that high usually...





Link Posted: 1/17/2006 4:02:34 PM EDT
I was using Wolf 55gr FMJ w/o 1 problem. I even used it in my Beta. I was also using Wolf 230gr FMJ in my HK. I have never had any problems using Wolf. Of course I would never bet my life on it, but for plinking you cant go wrong.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 4:06:09 PM EDT

Do you recall any that seemed to go BOOM more so than other rounds in your mag?


No.

Very strange, I wouldn't think UMC would do that, but I've been wrong before.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 7:56:34 PM EDT
I was using a combination of Wolf 55 gr. FMJ and 55 gr. HP in my Mini-14. I kept the mags separate, and used the HPs for the close range cardboard targets.

The only problem I have with the Wolf is every now and then, on a full mag, they hang up on the feed lips about halfway out of the magazine. This only happens within the first 5 or 6 rounds on a full mag, and is sporadic at best. All I have to do is give it a little tap on the charging handle, and I'm back in business, but it still costs me a few seconds. I personally think it's the steel case on the steel lips, since I can't remember ever having this problem with brass cased ammo.

As for my USP, I was running the cheap UMC 250 round bulk pack of 115 gr. FMJ. They always seem to work good for me, as long as I can remember to do my part.

I know exactly what you are talking about, concerning the targets not moving all the way. I think a lot of those are rounds that strike the very bottom of the target, or even the rear support behind the target. There was one target on Stage 3, the tire stage, that seemed like everybody had a hard time moving. It was the target on the far right, and was also canted to the right. I think it wasn't swinging as freely as it should have been. That one was probably the most difficult target to call, in my opinion.

I must say I'm pretty happy with my Mini, it shot pretty good this match. There's still a few more mods I'd like to do to it, but it's a working progress. Of course, if anybody has any extra ARs they feel like donating...
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 3:57:21 PM EDT
Montana guy 55gr reloads here. and 180gr. from the same place, for the 40. That stuff is very accurate in my AR. I think I had some near misses in the tire stage. But what really killed my time was that the RO told me to hold up in between the tires. Then turns around and asked someone behind him a ? . No I did not get a re shoot, it just wasn't worth the time to hold up the other shooters waiting in the bottle neck. Besides I was quite happy with the other stages.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 4:39:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Cboyer:
Montana guy 55gr reloads here. and 180gr. from the same place, for the 40. That stuff is very accurate in my AR. I think I had some near misses in the tire stage. But what really killed my time was that the RO told me to hold up in between the tires. Then turns around and asked someone behind him a ? . No I did not get a re shoot, it just wasn't worth the time to hold up the other shooters waiting in the bottle neck. Besides I was quite happy with the other stages.

]

"Montana Guy" is the Hunting Shack. The bright orange boxes you see at the gunshows.

I also use their 180 gr. JHP in my USP.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 6:23:41 PM EDT
Petagunner writes:

Top ten or bottom ten....it doesn't have anything to do with this, I saw a good number of hits on the target that did not rock them enough for the RO to call hit and move on to the next. 7.62 cures that easily, but was looking for a better option for the 5.56. I dont want to have to worry about only hitting those on the upper half or third of the steel to get them to rock back enough to see the orange and move on. The tire stage was a great example of that. WS4LIF and I saw a good number of this as an example and both experienced it as well.

Calling hits on some of the targets is sometimes difficult. Unfortunately, the foam ear plugs
I use block out enough noise that I really don't hear the impact. I look more for bullet spray
from the plate. With .223 hits, sometimes they rock the plate, sometime they don't. I think sometimes
rocks get in the swinging mechanism and prevent swinging. Maybe we should all use .308.

It's a real bitch when you are calling hits and someone is using a .308 with a muzzle break like Frank.
The blast stuns me enough that I lose concentration.

What do I use? 55gr Win 55gr FMJ, 26.5gr 2230C, Mixed Brass & WSR. It rocks the plate and doesn't
leave spent primers in the chamber.

Spambo
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 6:56:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By spambo:
Petagunner writes:

Top ten or bottom ten....it doesn't have anything to do with this, I saw a good number of hits on the target that did not rock them enough for the RO to call hit and move on to the next. 7.62 cures that easily, but was looking for a better option for the 5.56. I dont want to have to worry about only hitting those on the upper half or third of the steel to get them to rock back enough to see the orange and move on. The tire stage was a great example of that. WS4LIF and I saw a good number of this as an example and both experienced it as well.

Calling hits on some of the targets is sometimes difficult. Unfortunately, the foam ear plugs
I use block out enough noise that I really don't hear the impact. I look more for bullet spray
from the plate. With .223 hits, sometimes they rock the plate, sometime they don't. I think sometimes
rocks get in the swinging mechanism and prevent swinging. Maybe we should all use .308.

It's a real bitch when you are calling hits and someone is using a .308 with a muzzle break like Frank.
The blast stuns me enough that I lose concentration.

What do I use? 55gr Win 55gr FMJ, 26.5gr 2230C, Mixed Brass & WSR. It rocks the plate and doesn't
leave spent primers in the chamber.

Spambo



Dude, electronic earmuffs are the shit. I wholly recommend them. Make sure to get the ones that attenuate the sound, not the ones that clip it. I have a set of Peltor Tactical 7's. They make it sound like a movie. You can hear everything, but the gunshots are the same volume as voices.

I like the concept of the targets. They make up for differences in power. Assuming that shot placement is more important with smaller calibers. Those shooting smaller guns (like AR's) have a smaller target to hit, but the big guns (.30 cals) hit harder and don't require as much shot placement. Probably be better if they had a smaller target painted in the "sweet spot" for us AR guys.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 6:58:06 PM EDT
peta,

Congrats on your top ten score. Don't know you guys, but I think I recognized you at the match (sans purse?), maybe I'm mistaken.

In answer to your question:

Wolf 55 gr FMJ (polymer coated case) - its mediocre (poor!) accuracy is still sufficient for these matches (11th place this month), and zero reliability problems so far.

Wolf pistol ammo too - the (close) distances this match's targets are at only requires minimal accuracy. I use it for all matches except target/precision. Again, zero reliability problems so far.



Regarding the targets:

Someone mentioned paint - good idea; there's usually paint on hand for exactly that purpose. Someone mentioned that if you hit the target then it will flash - this is correct - and also mentioned that a "semi-flash" or "wobble" is usually caused by a hit to the base (the target stand/housing - NOT the target propper) - this is also correct. Although a 7.62 will really swing the target, a .223 is not considered to be at a disadvantage - it will flash (if you hit it).

It is my understanding that a participant can request a target check if they have reason to suspect a target is not functioning correctly. If you feel a need to do this, then do this before you shoot (this saves the time of your re-shoot in the case that there is a malfunctioning target). Please don't do this capriciously (not to suggest that you would) as it does require cease-fire time - and I doubt anybody wants to spend more non-shooting time there. The same applies to refreshing the paint. My understanding is that the RO can honor your request (or not) at his/her discretion (he/she may believe that the target is functioning properly, etc.).

ac
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 7:26:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PromptCritical:
Dude, electronic earmuffs are the shit.



Dude, my electronic earmuffs were $20 at Harbor Freight and the regulars were $12 at Sportsman's.

Link Posted: 1/18/2006 7:41:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NoAim:

Originally Posted By Cboyer:
Montana guy 55gr reloads here. and 180gr. from the same place, for the 40. That stuff is very accurate in my AR. I think I had some near misses in the tire stage. But what really killed my time was that the RO told me to hold up in between the tires. Then turns around and asked someone behind him a ? . No I did not get a re shoot, it just wasn't worth the time to hold up the other shooters waiting in the bottle neck. Besides I was quite happy with the other stages.

]

"Montana Guy" is the Hunting Shack. The bright orange boxes you see at the gunshows.

I also use their 180 gr. JHP in my USP.



Yes sir that would be the one.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 7:54:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NoAim:

Originally Posted By PromptCritical:
Dude, electronic earmuffs are the shit.



Dude, my electronic earmuffs were $20 at Harbor Freight and the regulars were $12 at Sportsman's.




How do you like the Harbor Freight earmuffs? Are they stereo?

I got a pair of Caldwell earmuffs from MidwayUSA for $25, and they work pretty good. I actually wear a pair of foam earplugs underneath, and with the volume up, I can still hear normally. This match was the second time I've used them, and I really like them so far.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 8:07:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ConcernedCitizen:

Originally Posted By NoAim:

Originally Posted By PromptCritical:
Dude, electronic earmuffs are the shit.



Dude, my electronic earmuffs were $20 at Harbor Freight and the regulars were $12 at Sportsman's.




How do you like the Harbor Freight earmuffs? Are they stereo?

I got a pair of Caldwell earmuffs from MidwayUSA for $25, and they work pretty good. I actually wear a pair of foam earplugs underneath, and with the volume up, I can still hear normally. This match was the second time I've used them, and I really like them so far.



They're cheap, but they work.

Mono, the knob is a bit scratchy, but once they're on, they're good. Sound suppression isn't nearly like my Shotgunners, and they're a bit bulky (hard to get a good check weld. But for standing around making rude comments about the shooter as they go through the stage....they're perfect.

These are the same ones Unka-Boo and his FIL use at PR.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 8:46:02 PM EDT
Winchester Q3131 - I finally ran out of the Q3131A and am eating into the cases of plain 3131. No change in POI/POA (PHEW! Since I didn't go over and re-verify my zero before the match).

Link Posted: 1/18/2006 9:07:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NoAim:

Originally Posted By ConcernedCitizen:

Originally Posted By NoAim:

Originally Posted By PromptCritical:
Dude, electronic earmuffs are the shit.



Dude, my electronic earmuffs were $20 at Harbor Freight and the regulars were $12 at Sportsman's.




How do you like the Harbor Freight earmuffs? Are they stereo?

I got a pair of Caldwell earmuffs from MidwayUSA for $25, and they work pretty good. I actually wear a pair of foam earplugs underneath, and with the volume up, I can still hear normally. This match was the second time I've used them, and I really like them so far.



They're cheap, but they work.

Mono, the knob is a bit scratchy, but once they're on, they're good. Sound suppression isn't nearly like my Shotgunners, and they're a bit bulky (hard to get a good check weld. But for standing around making rude comments about the shooter as they go through the stage....they're perfect.

These are the same ones Unka-Boo and his FIL use at PR.





Cheap bastards of the world, unite!! I'm still thinking about getting another pair and McGuyvering a stereo set together....for $40
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 10:53:42 AM EDT
Got a set of the Peltor Tac 6-S's

Nice for the money. Just tried them out at the range yesterday and they made all the difference in the world. Only thing I'm gonna have to get used to is firing an AK with them on. Dang near impossible standing up for me to get a cheak weld. Not sure if it's the way I'm shooting, but the sights are just too fricking low
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