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Posted: 12/12/2005 9:16:31 PM EDT
Since the last thread degenerated another lovers spat, I was wondering what people found that worked and didn't work at the night match.

I shot the night match using this rig:



The most important lessons learned for me were:

1) Surefire X200A does work for IDing targets at realistic ranges.

2) PK-AS sight red dot does work nicely for night/CQB work.

3) Wolf ammo smoke reflects mucho light right back in your face.

Night shooting is hard, but if we were ever going to need our rifles for serious work, I would bet that it's a 10 feet in the dark, not 350 yards in bright daylight. BSW
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 9:26:36 PM EDT
$35 lasers kinda work, kinda don't........

Iron's still suck at night, but it can be done.......

Bright lights and smoke don't mix........

Chamber flags must come out before rounds go in.......( not me personally, but saw 3 others forget... )

5.56 does NOT belong in a 7.62 chamber........

Holy shit.......72!!!!.......people, that is........awesome turnout.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 10:37:07 PM EDT
I was going to go to this one, but I ended up at work putting in some overtime.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 10:52:03 PM EDT
When warming your hands by a campfire, always wear your full tac gear and have your rifle by your side. There are *things* in the woods....

Again, smoke + light = bad.

Learn to shoot faster left handed.

A Pentagon X2 (6V) will work out to 75-100 yards.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 1:52:40 AM EDT
Ok what i learned...
65 Lumans is enough out to about 50-75 Yards to Identify targets...
Wolf Smoke Plus light = Suxors...
Need to pratice shooting around Barriers Left handed...
Can not see my frount sight post in the Drak.. Whiteout blah blah would work to cure that...
223 in a 762 AK will fire but forget about it Cycling, and its goina take some work to remove the case afterwords.. BUT IT WILL HIT THE TARGET!!! *thank god no one got hurt*
Chamber Flags are going to become a target of mine... Death to Chamber Flags...

Agreed When sitting by the campfire Make sure you move away from the Light + Smoke to engage targets.. and be sure to have 2 mags with your rifle right next to you at all times incase of Zombie Invason..

uuummm i think that covers it... i am starting to get comfertable with the AK more but i really need more trigger time.. i just wish i could run these matchs by my self or with a small group and go through the stages about a dozen times for more training..

Peta Must have serious training.. to come out as a Tyro at a Night match and place 7th out of 72.. Peta Fese up.. You where a Ranger/Recon/Seal for a few years eh???

Jess
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 5:10:07 AM EDT
HA, HA!!!!!!!!

I don't have a problem shooting left-handed.........



But seriously, it's not a bad idea to practice off-hand shooting, it may come in handy someday.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 7:03:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Unka-Boo:
HA, HA!!!!!!!!

I don't have a problem shooting left-handed.........



But seriously, it's not a bad idea to practice off-hand shooting, it may come in handy someday.



Shooting weakside is easy its training your non-dominent eye to use the sight that is the hard task.
CH
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 7:59:48 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 10:05:46 AM EDT
My second bitch about the shoot would be light discipline, I lost count how may times people shined a bright light into my eyes. It was really starting to piss me off. Because at a night shoot you want to know how your eyes will react to the firing of a weapon. I already know what happens when some Id10T shines a bright light in face does.

A trick I used was to put a light stick in my case to help me get the weapon out and ready.

One light on a weapon is none and two is one. I had two lights on my rifle one was the G2 and the other was the M6X laser flashlight knock off from burris. The Burris died on the the first stage as I moved to the second spot and did the mag change. What happened is the tall cap popped off and the batteries jump out. Jason and Bill where nice enough to pick it up for me. But because I had a second light on my rifle I WAS able to finish the stage.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 10:12:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ilike9s:
A trick I used was to put a light stick in my case to help me get the weapon out and ready.




This worked very well.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 10:56:17 AM EDT
Yes it did, smart thing to do.

I did feel bad about your flashlight exploding.......at least we found all of it...
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 12:21:53 PM EDT

I need to bring a handheld flashlight that does not blind me. Don’t try to use a 30 lum flashlight to (try to) write on a scoresheet. Low intensity has its place.

I noticed the gravel and earth reflected more light onto the targets this year so even my 30 lum handheld was workable.

My suggestion for next year is to have those 70 yard targets surrounded in front (on the flanks) with white no-shoots so they would be much harder to see through the resulting washout. Some red and black targets would help round out it out further so no one reticle type can do it all.

White steel and brown cardboard does not represent the colors most bad guys wear at night. Let’s make this even harder.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 12:33:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Unka-Boo:
Yes it did, smart thing to do.

I did feel bad about your flashlight exploding.......at least we found all of it...

Yes thank you again.

I am send it off to Burris, sound like they will make it right. But I will not have it for a while which sucks.

Another thing I learned is an AR will work dirty (have not cleaned since our October shoot, I know same on me but oh well!) and frozen, and I don't think CLP freezes. My AR was in the trunk all day while I helped set up and all.

My E-O-Thingy worked great on stage one when shooting left handed, I did not even have the rifle shouldered. I just put the dot on the target and pulled the trigger. Out of the 4 targets shoot doing this I think I only missed once.

On Stage two I went prone and found out that the light will not reach the distance if the rifle is to close to the deck. So I brought it up some and got some light on the target and fired away.

I learnd an awful lot this shoot.

Link Posted: 12/13/2005 12:51:59 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 1:02:35 PM EDT
I learned that Pentagon Lights X3 ROCK! They own the night!

Will go on all my rifles!
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 1:38:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By petagunner:

I noticed that on stage 2 as well. Alot of the light was lost on the gravel. Surprised more people didn't pick up on that one.




When you are using 220 Lums you don't notice such minor losses

I even shot threw the camp fire smoke on the right side
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 1:45:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TangoFoxtrot:

Originally Posted By petagunner:

I noticed that on stage 2 as well. Alot of the light was lost on the gravel. Surprised more people didn't pick up on that one.




When you are using 220 Lums you don't notice such minor losses

I even shot threw the camp fire smoke on the right side



Not me...My dumb ass stocked the fire before my turn
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 1:50:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2005 1:50:41 PM EDT by WS4LIF]

Not me...My dumb ass stocked the fire before my turn


I did too and shot 4th out 72 on that stage, quit crying baby.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 1:56:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2005 1:57:28 PM EDT by Cape_hunter]

Originally Posted By WS4LIF:

Not me...My dumb ass stocked the fire before my turn


I did too and shot 4th out 72 on that stage, quit crying baby.



WAAAAHHHHSATCH!!!!
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 2:39:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Cape_hunter:
Not me...My dumb ass stocked the fire before my turn



And I was right after you too dickhead! Couldn't see crap.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 4:26:25 PM EDT
I learned that a Mini-14 CAN compete with an AR15... (In a close range, poorly lit environment...Honestly,
I also learned that I need to replace my rear sight, so I don't have to worry about it being folded down when I need it most!hat Glad you're okay, Anarx. For your next trick, you should try 5.45 x 39...
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 4:44:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ConcernedCitizen:
I learned that a Mini-14 CAN compete with an AR15... (In a close range, poorly lit environment...Honestly,
I also learned that I need to replace my rear sight, so I don't have to worry about it being folded down when I need it most!hr

I gotta Williams WGRS for my mini, and it works real good. Just besure to locktight it down when you put it on, and then again once its zero'd. not a bad buy at ike $30 from midway usa.

I think i might try to get out to the next PR match and see how bad i do. Sounds like it could be fun.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 5:22:01 PM EDT
Yeah, I've already got a Williams WGRS sight for it, but I just haven't taken the time to install it yet.

I also have an M1 Carbine rear sight I'm going to modify, just so I have other options.

How sturdy is the Williams sight?
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 5:34:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ConcernedCitizen:
Yeah, I've already got a Williams WGRS sight for it, but I just haven't taken the time to install it yet.

I also have an M1 Carbine rear sight I'm going to modify, just so I have other options.

How sturdy is the Williams sight?


I havent beat the heck out of mine, but it seems OK. the set screw thingy on the back is kinda hokey, but other than that its alright. I spose u get what you payfor. but overall its a couple steps up from what comes wiht the gun.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 7:13:51 PM EDT
Sounds like too much fun!

How do you mount the X3?

rick
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 8:52:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2005 8:57:21 PM EDT by GackMan]
I put some of my comments in the other thread.

some observations:

KNOW YOUR GEAR! loading, unloading, re-loading, clearing malfunctions in the dark are not any different than in the day time. you shouldn't be looking at the rifle in either case. Know how to operate your light... no kidding, some people seemed un familiar with turning the light on and off.

also along that line, know which end of the case the pointy part of the rifle is facing.

right/left transition and shooting - need to be able to transition quickly and shoot with off hand.

have a light with a momentary on/off - nice to be able to turn off the light when you are getting reflection from smoke, close targets, etc. plus in the real world, you don't want to be running around with constant white light coming off the end of your gun.

have a light with a shock bezel that is designed to handle rifle recoil.

have a back-up light and know how to use a hand held light with a rifle.


oh, and clearing the rifle by sight and feel shouldn't be a mystery.



Link Posted: 12/13/2005 11:46:31 PM EDT
The main problem that was had was the Chamber Flag.. if you forget its there its going to take a fair ammount of time to remember..

i went through my clearing drill in my head and its sound not too worryed about it as long as the proper ammo is in the rifle..
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 11:50:24 PM EDT
I also did the chem light in the rifle case trick. I had it dummy corded to the case at the bang stick end and tucked inside. It worked great for the stages whe had to open the case and load.


Originally Posted By Anarx:
as long as the proper ammo is in the rifle..



note to self: chem-light in the ammo can next year.

I had most of my mags loaded before I got there. I only loaded the 10 rounder for stage 5 at the range.

Link Posted: 12/14/2005 5:35:45 AM EDT
Another observation from the night shoot: If you go prone or next to a wall, your own light will bounce off the ground/cover in front of you, lighting you up very effectively. I can't imagine that it helps night vision either. BSW
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 8:46:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 8:46:36 PM EDT by EconBoy]
I used iron sights, and they worked pretty well for me. I came in top 3 for the iron sighted folks, but the scores reflected a lot of guys were having problems with them. The 75yard shot was tough because the light blended in with the white target for me and i was shooting rocks for the first 3 bullets. Some sort of detachable light would be best i think. I had to duct tape on a g2, but it worked great. The face that I have to balance the rifle between the front and rears definitely makes the sight picture time greater.

Also, if you're using a LULA in the dark, make sure that you look to see what direction the bullets are going in your mag...

ohh yea, f--k chamber flags
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 8:58:52 PM EDT
I keep reading abut the chamber flags...what was the reason for them? Is it a safety thing that every weapon not being used on the stage be chamber flagged? Did everyone have to bring thier own before the shoot started?
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 9:20:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By YANKEEFAN:
I keep reading abut the chamber flags...what was the reason for them? Is it a safety thing that every weapon not being used on the stage be chamber flagged? Did everyone have to bring thier own before the shoot started?



It is a club rule.

chamber flags are a buck, but they had them there free for anyone who didn't have one.

Link Posted: 12/14/2005 9:21:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By YANKEEFAN:
I keep reading abut the chamber flags...what was the reason for them? Is it a safety thing that every weapon not being used on the stage be chamber flagged? Did everyone have to bring thier own before the shoot started?



They were required as we were shooting in the pistol pits and not the quarry. They were provided and had to be placed back in the rifle after every stage before you cased it. It caused more trouble then any other one thing....well except the being dark part.
CH
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 3:23:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GackMan:
....have a back-up light and know how to use a hand held light with a rifle....



Great post Gackman, but I really was intrigued by the above comment. How do you use a handheld light with a rifle; I know how to do it with a pistol but never consdered it with a rifle.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 5:32:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By YANKEEFAN:

Originally Posted By GackMan:
....have a back-up light and know how to use a hand held light with a rifle....



Great post Gackman, but I really was intrigued by the above comment. How do you use a handheld light with a rifle; I know how to do it with a pistol but never consdered it with a rifle.



Depends on the target. You can shoot it similer to how yo uwould with a handgun. Hold the light, thumb on button, pointed at target and rest your carbine on your forearm. If usung a vert grip you can hold hte grip and still hod a light in your hand.

Just depends on you.
CH
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 10:35:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 10:39:28 PM EDT by GackMan]

Originally Posted By YANKEEFAN:

Originally Posted By GackMan:
....have a back-up light and know how to use a hand held light with a rifle....



Great post Gackman, but I really was intrigued by the above comment. How do you use a handheld light with a rifle; I know how to do it with a pistol but never consdered it with a rifle.



like Cape said.

similar to the harries technique with a pistol.


Take a small flashlight like a surefire G2. Place it in your off hand with the lens pointed down/away so you can actuate the tail cap with your thumb. Shoulder the rifle and rest the for-end in your elbow of your off arm. Some people just rest if on there, depends on your body type. But with an AR this works really well... you can pull the rifle toward you with the mag well using you forearm. If you have a vertical grip, you have to put your forearm between the two, so think of that.

Another way is similar to the rogers/syringe/surefire method. Hold the light like a syringe between your index and middle fingers and actuate it with your thumb. Support the rifle with 1/4 - 1/3 of your hand and your ring and pinky finger.

If you have a light with the push button near the front you can take the light and align it with the barrel and wrap your hand around both of them. Similar to the 'side by side' pistol method. Challenging unless you have big ass monkey hands.

None of these techniques is perfect. They kind of suck for anthing past intermediate range since you lose so much support. but for close range e.g. doing an area search around an area 50 yards away or so and having your bag stick ready, they work.

for close range you can just hook the stock under your armpit and shoot one handed and use the flashlight with your other hand... it works, but if you think the other techniques sucked...


Link Posted: 12/17/2005 7:38:46 PM EDT
BSW and LDD posted some good details about the night shoot over at SigForum.

See here.
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