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Posted: 9/7/2010 11:23:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2010 11:24:37 AM EDT by opticalc]
I had an HTF-recommended gunsmith (recommended by more than 1 person) go kinda nuts when I asked him to mount/align my scope/rings/base. What set him off was when I asked him about lapping the rings and he went off on this mini-rant: "No one ever does that! I've been gunsmithing for 40 years! I mount 4000 dollar rifles/SWAROVSKI combos and never do that. You dont need to do that. arrrrgg. blahh blaah 40 years!"

So it is that uncommon? I was going to ask him to epoxy bed and free float it as well but I kind of need the rifle back for an upcoming hunt and didnt think he'd have enough time to get to all that. Now I wonder if he'd have popped a vein has I asked about that other stuff.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 11:29:32 AM EDT
1. Some of the gunsmith recommendations I see in here are scary.

2. With quality rings on a quality base with quality glass I agree that you should not have to lap the rings. Buy cheap crap, yeah, I'd expect the rings would benefit from lapping.

Mark
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 11:33:53 AM EDT
Had he already given you a price?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 12:08:05 PM EDT
I was told to lap in all scopes. It puts less stress on the scope when you tighten the rings. I use a Wheeler scpoe ring alignment and lapping kit, mine is fore a one inch tube. That's IMHO.

Mike
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 12:12:53 PM EDT
buy a rifle 2nd hand from num (1morear). It'll have EVERYTHING already done- minus the glass ;)

he even lapped the rings for me.

by the way, Num, that little .308 still shoots GREAT and has dropped many a critter since i got it from you. if only i could sand off that paint job...

Link Posted: 9/7/2010 1:22:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BookHound:
1. Some of the gunsmith recommendations I see in here are scary.

2. With quality rings on a quality base with quality glass I agree that you should not have to lap the rings. Buy cheap crap, yeah, I'd expect the rings would benefit from lapping.

Mark


Mark nailed it - you really don't have to with products that maintain a spec such as Mil-Std. 1913, etc. The problem is when you get components from companies who say that hold the spec, but may not consistantly.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 1:30:24 PM EDT
What are you hunting w/ a lapped scope, epoxy bedded, and free floated rifle?

If you say deer, I am going to fall over laughing!

Accountant
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 1:34:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Accountant30339:
What are you hunting w/ a lapped scope, epoxy bedded, and free floated rifle?

If you say deer, I am going to fall over laughing!

Accountant


Man, you'd die if you knew what I hunted with then. That doesn't mean that's the primary purpose for it though.....

Link Posted: 9/7/2010 1:48:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Accountant30339:
What are you hunting w/ a lapped scope, epoxy bedded, and free floated rifle?

If you say deer, I am going to fall over laughing!

Accountant


head shots for a hog
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 2:03:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Accountant30339:
What are you hunting w/ a lapped scope, epoxy bedded, and free floated rifle?

If you say deer, I am going to fall over laughing!

Accountant

Some folks hunt a bit further than 30 yards from a comfy tree stand.

Not to bust your balls, but your comment sounds like something a "Fudd" would say while checkin' the old bambi blaster just before season opener. You know the guys - the ones who stick a pie plate at 25 yards and call it "Good 'nuff!" if they can keep two of their three rounds on the plate. I didn't figure you were part of that crowd so I am a little surprised by your comments.

What the heck is wrong with having something as accurate as possible? Lapping rings (if needed) and bedding a rifle aren't exactly very expensive procedures and can make a lot of difference for the guy who needs/desires as much accuracy as possible.

We could debate "practical" vs. "precision" accuracy and there IS something called "good enough". But I certainly won't fault a hunter trying to make as accurate a shot as possible. I feel safer in the woods with the guy who takes this seriously. YMMV.


Mark
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 2:06:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By opticalc:
Originally Posted By Accountant30339:
What are you hunting w/ a lapped scope, epoxy bedded, and free floated rifle?

If you say deer, I am going to fall over laughing!

Accountant


head shots for a hog

And there ya go! An ethical hunter. Good to see one from time to time.

For the record, I got interrupted typing my last response so it took several minutes to finish it. Good to see the OP is someone who takes hunting seriously enough to strive for the most accurate shot he can make.

Link Posted: 9/7/2010 3:24:25 PM EDT
I'd say most if not all of the negative responses were from those that never lapped scope rings. Do it once and you'll see how uneven the surface of those things are. Even the very best.

Does it make a difference with accuracy. Well, it will over the long term cause those things won't ever move if they're lapped and tightened correctly

Oh dammit I forgot. I have a low post count and therefore my credibility is nil. Sorry.....nevermind.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 4:12:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By opticalc:
Originally Posted By Accountant30339:
What are you hunting w/ a lapped scope, epoxy bedded, and free floated rifle?

If you say deer, I am going to fall over laughing!

Accountant


head shots for a hog


Why head shots?

Link Posted: 9/7/2010 4:20:58 PM EDT
It's been a looooooong time since I've heard the phrase "lapping scope rings" and it's something I've never done, but always been interested in. It sounds like there is a regular sort of lapping tool and I'll bet one is available from Brownells.

I DO have a couple of questions about it:

What do you do with the rings once you have lapped all the bluing off of the inside of the rings? The only thing I can think of is to cold blue them and hope for the best. (Obviously aluminum rings would not need this treatment.)

Also: Is it possible/easy to over-lap them (aluminum in particular) and end up with a loose scope?

I have always felt like Bookhound, and never worried about it on quality rings, BUT, being a pawnbroker, I've acquired many a gun that is equipped with less than optimal accessories, and they would be prime candidates for this treatment. Like I said, I've never done this, and I've always wondered if I was missing out on something.

I've only got a medium sized post count, but I'd be thrilled to take advice from someone with a low post count!
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 4:23:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By strycnine:
Originally Posted By opticalc:
Originally Posted By Accountant30339:
What are you hunting w/ a lapped scope, epoxy bedded, and free floated rifle?

If you say deer, I am going to fall over laughing!

Accountant


head shots for a hog


Why head shots?



You don't waste any meat and you don't have to track them.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 4:32:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By cpl0313:
Originally Posted By strycnine:
Originally Posted By opticalc:
Originally Posted By Accountant30339:
What are you hunting w/ a lapped scope, epoxy bedded, and free floated rifle?

If you say deer, I am going to fall over laughing!

Accountant


head shots for a hog


Why head shots?



You don't waste any meat and you don't have to track them.


Good enough for me.


I've killed my share of hogs on public land here, all shot just behind the front shoulder. Only had to track one.....
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 4:44:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Emu:
It's been a looooooong time since I've heard the phrase "lapping scope rings" and it's something I've never done, but always been interested in. It sounds like there is a regular sort of lapping tool and I'll bet one is available from Brownells.

I DO have a couple of questions about it:

What do you do with the rings once you have lapped all the bluing off of the inside of the rings? The only thing I can think of is to cold blue them and hope for the best. (Obviously aluminum rings would not need this treatment.)

Also: Is it possible/easy to over-lap them (aluminum in particular) and end up with a loose scope?

I have always felt like Bookhound, and never worried about it on quality rings, BUT, being a pawnbroker, I've acquired many a gun that is equipped with less than optimal accessories, and they would be prime candidates for this treatment. Like I said, I've never done this, and I've always wondered if I was missing out on something.

I've only got a medium sized post count, but I'd be thrilled to take advice from someone with a low post count!

Yes, there are special tools. Yes, Brownells sells those tools and the lapping compound.

You hit on one area - over lapping. Yes, you can do that. You can damage the rings if you don't know what you are doing. I have seen examples of this.

Arguing/debating about the necessity of lapping rings is like debating barrel break-in. You will likely never convince people who have already formed their own opinion to change that opinion. If you want to lap rings, have at it. Just be careful you don't screw things up. It isn't like trying to bed your own stock. When lapping rings there IS a point of no return so be careful.

Mark
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 4:46:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BookHound:

<snip> comfy tree stand. <snip>

Mark


What kind? Never heard of such a thing.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 4:48:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By strycnine:
I've killed my share of hogs on public land here, all shot just behind the front shoulder. Only had to track one.....


You haven't lived until you have shot hogs at night with quality night vision.

At beyond 250-yards.

With a single round to the head.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 4:48:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BookHound:

<snip> comfy tree stand. <snip>

Mark


What kind? Never heard of such a thing.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 4:49:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By stimpsonjcat:
Originally Posted By BookHound:

<snip> comfy tree stand. <snip>

Mark


What kind? Never heard of such a thing.

Tree Lounge. Worst stand EVER. I get in mine and fall asleep. Give me some spine breaker stand. At least then I will be awake for the shot.

Link Posted: 9/7/2010 4:57:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BookHound:

Originally Posted By strycnine:
I've killed my share of hogs on public land here, all shot just behind the front shoulder. Only had to track one.....


You haven't lived until you have shot hogs at night with quality night vision.

At beyond 250-yards.

With a single round to the head.


Not legal where I hunt.


I try to get within 35 yrds or so...............

Link Posted: 9/7/2010 5:00:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By stimpsonjcat:
Originally Posted By BookHound:

<snip> comfy tree stand. <snip>

Mark


What kind? Never heard of such a thing.


If you're question is serious, check this out and IM me for questions.
I've been climbing trees for 25+ years and wish I'd found this long before last year.
He's one of the founders of the old Buckshot's.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 2:39:30 AM EDT
It's not just about rings, or the bases. You're betting that the rings are perfect, the base is perfect, and the receiver/mounting holes are all perfect.

Everything is machined within acceptable tolerances. You can have all of those components off a bit, but well within acceptable tolerances. Add all of those variables up and you MIGHT have a problem.

I lap everything; hunting rifles, .22's, Sniper rifles.........all of 'em. When done properly, it will absolutely not hurt anything (even if it didn't need done), so why not do it? I call it cheap insurance.

I have a custom Rem700-based rifle. When it was built, I had the mounting holes all "center-lined" and opened to 8-40. I have a steel TPS Picatinny-spec rail and am using steel Nightforce rings. It took a little bit of lapping to get things perfect. Even though I was using top-of-the-line components, it wasn't lining up like I wanted.

When lapping, you're not trying for 100% contact. I look for about 75%. Works like a charm and no "over-lapping".
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 6:26:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By opticalc:
I had an HTF-recommended gunsmith (recommended by more than 1 person) go kinda nuts when I asked him to mount/align my scope/rings/base. What set him off was when I asked him about lapping the rings and he went off on this mini-rant: "No one ever does that! I've been gunsmithing for 40 years! I mount 4000 dollar rifles/SWAROVSKI combos and never do that. You dont need to do that. arrrrgg. blahh blaah 40 years!"

So it is that uncommon? I was going to ask him to epoxy bed and free float it as well but I kind of need the rifle back for an upcoming hunt and didnt think he'd have enough time to get to all that. Now I wonder if he'd have popped a vein has I asked about that other stuff.

may i ask ... who was the gunsmith ?
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 6:32:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Accountant30339:
What are you hunting w/ a lapped scope, epoxy bedded, and free floated rifle?

If you say deer, I am going to fall over laughing!

Accountant


mine has a one piece scope mount,tuned trigger,bedded,floated and boss system matched to the ammo and i hunt deer and hog with it so while you are out wasting your time ill be putting meat in the freezer !

Link Posted: 9/8/2010 8:02:01 AM EDT
I would find another gunsmith. I lap mine mainly to keep the rings from scratching the scope which they will certainly do it its not done.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 8:32:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bill3508:
I would find another gunsmith. I lap mine mainly to keep the rings from scratching the scope which they will certainly do it its not done.

You sure about that? I have several Nightforce, USO, March and other scopes sitting right here that have all been mounted multiple times in multiple rings on multiple rifles that will disagree with you. Can't see a mark on any of them.


Again, to summarize...

Lapping, if done properly, won't hurt anything.

Lapping is sometimes necessary to ensure proper contact and sometimes to keep scopes from getting scratched. But it isn't always necessary.

Some ring and base manufactures hold much tighter tolerances than others.


Mark
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 3:24:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BookHound:

Originally Posted By Accountant30339:
What are you hunting w/ a lapped scope, epoxy bedded, and free floated rifle?

If you say deer, I am going to fall over laughing!

Accountant

Some folks hunt a bit further than 30 yards from a comfy tree stand.

Not to bust your balls, but your comment sounds like something a "Fudd" would say while checkin' the old bambi blaster just before season opener. You know the guys - the ones who stick a pie plate at 25 yards and call it "Good 'nuff!" if they can keep two of their three rounds on the plate. I didn't figure you were part of that crowd so I am a little surprised by your comments.

What the heck is wrong with having something as accurate as possible? Lapping rings (if needed) and bedding a rifle aren't exactly very expensive procedures and can make a lot of difference for the guy who needs/desires as much accuracy as possible.

We could debate "practical" vs. "precision" accuracy and there IS something called "good enough". But I certainly won't fault a hunter trying to make as accurate a shot as possible. I feel safer in the woods with the guy who takes this seriously. YMMV.


Mark



Hi Mark,

You are always welcome to bust my balls. This place wouldn't be fun if we didn't needle each other a little. As for the rest of it, frankly I don't care. The man can do anything he pleases w/ his rifle. I just enjoy needling people that think they have to do all that stuff in order to have an accurate hunting rifle.

Oh, the older I get, the more I realize that Elmer Fudd was right. Grab a gun, any gun, and head to the woods. It's a great day to be outdoors!

Finally, to those that said head shots are ethical, I completely disagree. Head shots are an excellent way to wound and maim game. When you see the damage of a missed shot, I hope your conscience will keep you from doing something so foolish in the future.

Accountant
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 5:22:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Accountant30339:
Originally Posted By BookHound:

Originally Posted By Accountant30339:
What are you hunting w/ a lapped scope, epoxy bedded, and free floated rifle?

If you say deer, I am going to fall over laughing!

Accountant

Some folks hunt a bit further than 30 yards from a comfy tree stand.

Not to bust your balls, but your comment sounds like something a "Fudd" would say while checkin' the old bambi blaster just before season opener. You know the guys - the ones who stick a pie plate at 25 yards and call it "Good 'nuff!" if they can keep two of their three rounds on the plate. I didn't figure you were part of that crowd so I am a little surprised by your comments.

What the heck is wrong with having something as accurate as possible? Lapping rings (if needed) and bedding a rifle aren't exactly very expensive procedures and can make a lot of difference for the guy who needs/desires as much accuracy as possible.

We could debate "practical" vs. "precision" accuracy and there IS something called "good enough". But I certainly won't fault a hunter trying to make as accurate a shot as possible. I feel safer in the woods with the guy who takes this seriously. YMMV.


Mark



Hi Mark,

You are always welcome to bust my balls. This place wouldn't be fun if we didn't needle each other a little. As for the rest of it, frankly I don't care. The man can do anything he pleases w/ his rifle. I just enjoy needling people that think they have to do all that stuff in order to have an accurate hunting rifle.

Oh, the older I get, the more I realize that Elmer Fudd was right. Grab a gun, any gun, and head to the woods. It's a great day to be outdoors!

Finally, to those that said head shots are ethical, I completely disagree. Head shots are an excellent way to wound and maim game. When you see the damage of a missed shot, I hope your conscience will keep you from doing something so foolish in the future.

Accountant


Im hunting hog with a 22WMR (during small game season) so not much of a choice other than a head shot. Besides I have been wanting to get an accurized rifle for a while, and figured this setup may be nice for that. I do realize a 17hmr would be a better choice for an accurized platform but I dont want to hunt hogs with that. My regular deer gun is a 6.8 midlength where the only accurization is a 2 stage trigger. So no, I dont think I need all that stuff to have an accurate hunting rifle. And no I dont aim for the head with deer either.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 5:40:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Accountant30339:

Hi Mark,

You are always welcome to bust my balls. This place wouldn't be fun if we didn't needle each other a little. As for the rest of it, frankly I don't care. The man can do anything he pleases w/ his rifle. I just enjoy needling people that think they have to do all that stuff in order to have an accurate hunting rifle.

Oh, the older I get, the more I realize that Elmer Fudd was right. Grab a gun, any gun, and head to the woods. It's a great day to be outdoors!

Finally, to those that said head shots are ethical, I completely disagree. Head shots are an excellent way to wound and maim game. When you see the damage of a missed shot, I hope your conscience will keep you from doing something so foolish in the future.

Accountant

I had this same "conversation" with a guy on GON a couple years ago. Some guy was bragging about killed deer at 60+ yards with a 65-pound draw bow shooting fat aluminum arrows with a 125-grain broad head. Then he was bragging about shooting deer at 300+ yards with his off the shelf rifle and a $150 POS scope. He busted my balls in another thread when I mentioned I have taken head shots on several deer UNDER THE RIGHT CIRCUMSTANCES. In the right situation a head shot isn't a bad thing. But to Bubba Gump (who finally admitted those long distance shots he was attempting were not always "good" shots and he often had to put a second or THIRD shot on the animal) I was the idiot even though I have never once missed a head shot I attempted.

Let's be honest, you are SHOOTING at an animal. There is always a chance for a less than perfect shot. You are trying to KILL it. Ethical hunters do everything they can to minimize opportunities to fail. Ethical hunters do everything they can to put the down the animal as quickly and painlessly as possible. Sometimes there is no quicker, less painful way than a clean head shot.

If you try a head shot and miss it sucks for the animal. If you try a heart/lung shot and miss, guess what...it STILL sucks for the animal.

If you really want to cry a river for poor little Bambi, let's talk about bow hunting. There is NO shot you can put on Bambi with an arrow that will drop it in its tracks EXCEPT for maybe a head shot! How does an animal die? One of two ways only - stop the computer (brain) or stop the pump (heart). Stop the computer and it all ends there; no more feelings. Stop the heart and Bambi might still suffer while bleeding out. Sucks to be Bambi if Bubba Gump is using a bow. Stick that in your peace pipe and smoke on it for a bit.

Bud, you and I will just have to agree to disagree on this one. That is cool though; we agree on plenty of other issues. But to me I will always believe the guy trying to get as much accuracy as possible is the more ethical minded hunter than the guy who is willing to grab any old rifle in the hopes of putting Mr. Bullet just somewhere "close enough". And I would feel a LOT safer in the woods with the former guy than I would the latter. It seems it is always the guys in that "good enough" group who seem to be making the mistakes.

Take care. Good luck this season.



Oh, BTW one last thing. This is sure to make you spit at your screen and curse my name. I've taken head shots with a 5.56 caliber weapon.



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