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Posted: 3/20/2006 7:28:54 PM EDT
Last night, 4 armed punks, 3 with sawed-off shotguns and 1 with a pistol, forced about 50 people to hit the ground and hand over all their belongings (cell phones, wallets, car keys) at a Mexican restaurant near my home. They came in through the back door and kitchen, ran to the front of the restaurant, and told everyone to get on the floor. It all happened very quickly and luckily no one was injured.

As I have been thinking about this all day, I have been wondering how I would have handled the situation if I was there with my family. Would I have drawn the G19 and tried to end the situation? Would I have sat still unless one of them fired? What would they have done if I didn't draw and they found me on the ground with a gun in my holster? How would I have removed my family from the danger?

Now, I know that there are going to be a few commandos on here who say "Kill 'em all!", but the reality is that we are talking about 4 perps at a family restaurant. It really makes you think about how you would react.

All these questions would have been different if the situation would have involved a typical lunch with Book, ARH, ZZXX99, and myself. "Hit the floor! bang, bang, bang, BOOM(Allen's 10mm) Hey Ross, pass the salt."
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 7:40:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By chainshaw:
All these questions would have been different if the situation would have involved a typical lunch with Book, ARH, ZZXX99, and myself. "Hit the floor! bang, bang, bang, BOOM(Allen's 10mm) Hey Ross, pass the salt."




That's funny.......and yet so true!

4 against 1, give them what they want unless they start shooting. If they start shooting and you are going to die anyway, take the bastards with you.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 7:41:07 PM EDT
You just gave me a reason to buy Fox Lab 2.0 oz Pop and Toss OC Grenade. Toss one and run like hell.

It will flush out the gang as well as patrons. Nobody will get hurt at least and no one will lose money.

For your situation....Going gung-ho will compromise the safety of the others. Doing nothing will compromise your safety. Now if there were Book and other arfcommers, those gangbangers just walked into the grave

I'd say get a OC Grenade. I know I'm getting one. Now I see why Fox Lab made it.

and may I inquire what part of town this incident took place?
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 7:43:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Graziani:
and may I inquire what part of town this incident took place?




Dallas, Ga...................
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 7:45:52 PM EDT
My bad for not paying attention to the title

Holy Cxxx, I thought it happened near Atlanta. Surprised I am [yoda].


Originally Posted By Accountant30339:

Originally Posted By Graziani:
and may I inquire what part of town this incident took place?




Dallas, Ga...................

Link Posted: 3/21/2006 4:30:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/21/2006 4:36:37 AM EDT by JKiser]
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 6:18:43 AM EDT
I wouldn't draw and shoot until it was clear they intended to start killing.

One scenario I'd like to add to the question is, how would your actions differ if you had reason to beleive that at least a couple other patrons were armed?

Maybe I'd consider shooting them in the back as they fled. Might be considered cowardous, but so is robbing unarmed people.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 6:39:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Kletzenklueffer:
Maybe I'd consider shooting them in the back as they fled. Might be considered cowardous, but so is robbing unarmed people.



You kill rabid dogs any way you can.

rj
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 7:39:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JKiser:
My wife just told me that she read on the Paulding board that there were two places hit. Can anyone confirm this?

Does anyone know what time of day it happened?
JK



As usual, you can't believe anything that is written on that board. No, only one place was robbed. They have two of the perps in custody. already.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 8:16:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/21/2006 8:17:37 AM EDT by thompsondd]
4 on 1 with 50 innocents.

I would have laid low unless forced to act (like they started executing people). No need to go Cowboy. I think the risks outweighed the benefit at that point.

I don't think I would have handed my piece over though.

And if they found it,............................


....................well, that would probably be what would force me to act.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 8:18:00 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 8:28:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/21/2006 8:29:30 AM EDT by EntryTac]
Would depend on how they were "conducting business" really... If they were going through people's pockets and taking wallets (as they did in this case... taking wallets at least) there's a high likelyhood that they'd discover I'm a cop eventually and it would probably get REALLY ugly for me. With 4 to 1 odds and so many innocents around I'd lay low as long as they weren't hurting anybody or about to discover that I am armed and LE... No need for me to start a gunfight that would no doubt endanger a lot of people if the bad guys are not already overly dangerous in nature... Sometimes it's best just to be a great witness...

Now, make it 1 to 1 or 2 to 1 odds with clear shots, and bye bye bad guys first chance I get... One head shot and as many as it takes to drop #2...
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 10:55:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/21/2006 11:01:40 AM EDT by gamachinist]
I have to agree with Kletzenklueffer, BookHound, and EntryTac on cooperating as long as no shots were fired,and seperating myself from the other people before I opened fire.
My biggest fear would be that when the first round went off,that the others would start to fire wildly if I was behind cover and didn't offer a clear target.This would be good for me,but possibly really bad for everyone else in the area.
I wouldn't want any innocent bystanders shot because I opened fire prematurely.
So I would want to be in a position to take them all down without stopping to reaquire a target if at all possible.
I wouldn't want the second, third, and and fourth target to ever see where the first round came from if at all possible,so a blindside attack would be best.
But I don't have any idea how large the room was and how well they were watching everyone.So there may have been no way to handle it other than pray no one got hurt.

As far as others being armed,I wouldn't start shooting unless someone else fired first.No knowing anything about the other armed person(s), I think I would stick to my own plan,until forced to change it.

This was pretty funny!:
All these questions would have been different if the situation would have involved a typical lunch with Book, ARH, ZZXX99, and myself. "Hit the floor! bang, bang, bang, BOOM(Allen's 10mm) Hey Ross, pass the salt."
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 11:18:41 AM EDT
so I guess the consensus is...lay low and start shooting when things start turning sour.

I dunno. 3 sawed off shotguns vs 1 or 2 ccw. If the baddies wanted enough, they can hurt a lot of people w/ 3 12 GA. I'm kinda surprised that most want to start shooting.

I would have guessed that at least some on GA gang might have tried to take one gangbanger hostage with a knife to his throat and try to bargain a deal

I believe firepower is not the solution to all problems. It takes ingenuity, imagination, and raw materials for successful outcome in these dangerous situations.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 11:39:15 AM EDT
definitely a tough call.

If they're going through pockets themselves, how would you feel knowing the crooks now have your gun to do their next crime?

How much do you trust them to not harm anyone, and just walk with the profits?

I simply can't imagine sitting still, and hoping it all works out ok. I don't have that much faith in the character of the friendly neighborhood scumbags.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 12:03:04 PM EDT
Oh,heck no,
I won't give up my gun.
Wallet,watch,keys to my rusty old truck would get tossed on the floor,but the gun stays hidden at all cost until it's needed.
I was going on the assumption I would be on the floor,and tossing things for collection.
If I was standing,with no shotgun pointed at my head,the gun would be brought out by me,and used at face to face range,down low to the gut,so I would still have some element of surprise for the others targets.
I would hope I would have time to get my feeble mind in gear for a minute to plan before it was time to meet face to face.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 12:22:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/21/2006 12:40:17 PM EDT by Graziani]
Edit: Excuse me for the violent content of my post Anyways, how much shock/fear would it induce the BGs if an Arfcommer gets hold of one of the perps and finish him off with a blade and start scalping the perp? I think the rest of the gang will just run away like hell. In this case, I'd likely pick the oldest of the perps as a victim and let the young wannabees pee their undies and run.

you guys lack imagination.

If you are pumped up, you can easily do the reenactment of the Crazy 88 scene from Kill Bill. If I had a good sword, those 4 punks' heads would be on the floor in less than 30 seconds.

And blood everywhere, and people screaming... I may get wounded, but I will finish them all off and scalp them

Edit: I would not pull my gun in this situation. I don't want innocent folks getting 00 bucks in their bodies from the perps wildly filling the air with leads.

If they want to get violent and threaten lives, I'll show them what violence and threatening leads to. I'll be resorting to edged weapons and carve some engravings on their periperal corporal structures to make sure they won't be capable of do evil things in their short lives after prison.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 12:53:18 PM EDT
I'd have to stay still in that occurance, and have what belongings ready to give them in case they did want to search everyone. Acting alone could get everyone killed. Although, if they started shooting people then all bets are off and you do what you have to.

Bill3508
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 1:51:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Graziani:Anyways, how much shock/fear would it induce the BGs if an Arfcommer gets hold of one of the perps and finish him off with a blade and start scalping the perp? I think the rest of the gang will just run away like hell. In this case, I'd likely pick the oldest of the perps as a victim and let the young wannabees pee their undies and run.

you guys lack imagination.

If you are pumped up, you can easily do the reenactment of the Crazy 88 scene from Kill Bill. If I had a good sword, those 4 punks' heads would be on the floor in less than 30 seconds.

And blood everywhere, and people screaming... I may get wounded, but I will finish them all off and scalp them

If they want to get violent and threaten lives, I'll show them what violence and threatening leads to. I'll be resorting to edged weapons and carve some engravings on their periperal corporal structures to make sure they won't be capable of do evil things in their short lives after prison.




Bad day at the office?
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 2:10:24 PM EDT
Hence the reason I carry an UZI.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 2:12:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Graziani:
Edit: Excuse me for the violent content of my post Anyways, how much shock/fear would it induce the BGs if an Arfcommer gets hold of one of the perps and finish him off with a blade and start scalping the perp? I think the rest of the gang will just run away like hell. In this case, I'd likely pick the oldest of the perps as a victim and let the young wannabees pee their undies and run.

you guys lack imagination.

If you are pumped up, you can easily do the reenactment of the Crazy 88 scene from Kill Bill. If I had a good sword, those 4 punks' heads would be on the floor in less than 30 seconds.

And blood everywhere, and people screaming... I may get wounded, but I will finish them all off and scalp them

Edit: I would not pull my gun in this situation. I don't want innocent folks getting 00 bucks in their bodies from the perps wildly filling the air with leads.

If they want to get violent and threaten lives, I'll show them what violence and threatening leads to. I'll be resorting to edged weapons and carve some engravings on their periperal corporal structures to make sure they won't be capable of do evil things in their short lives after prison.





You remind me of myself in my youth. I used to carry a meat cleaver as a knife. Then it was a cattle prod
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 3:02:10 PM EDT
Sorry for graphic wording and mall ninja-ish mentality Well, I'll stick with OC Grenade option. It's less bloodier and more politically correct than going all out

Kletz, I've done my share of blade work on chickens I hate manually cutting the jugular. The knife gets dull too soon and your gloves get bloody and can't see where is your finger. then, ouch. oh #$%^ I'm bleeding
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 4:48:03 PM EDT
Imagine if all of the patrons in the restaurant were packing. I wonder if anybody in there was.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 5:08:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/21/2006 5:13:48 PM EDT by thompsondd]

Originally Posted By birdbarian:
Imagine if all of the patrons in the restaurant were packing. I wonder if anybody in there was.



Hummm, now that's an interesting twist.

50 armed, trained, law abiding citizens vs 4 douchebags is much better odds.

The only problem that I see in that scenario would be for the cornoner trying to determine which round was the actual cause of death.

Cornoner: "The perp has approx 79 bullet wounds of varying calibers. In my expert opinion, I would have to say he was hit with 5 different calibers at a minimum, possibly 7 to 8 max. Wounds are of varying size and variation among the temporary wound cavities is great. Shot placement seems fairly consistent except for those of Birdbarian, who somehow managedr to only inflict a fatal wound to the suspects getaway vehicle. Futhermore, there is no conclusive proof as to which is better; .45ACP or 9mm. The debate will still rage."
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 5:10:23 PM EDT
I have thought about this scenario myself and I have to say that unless they were going to do harm to anyone I would stay low and hope the situation didnt escalate. However, when do you really know in that situation if and when its going to escalate into someone getting hurt? That is the question. I would like to think I would sit there and do nothing and they would take what they want and leave, but we all know it doesnt work like that sometimes. Hard to say and extremely tough situation.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 5:19:06 PM EDT
the number one advantage a practiced shooter has over a criminal is accuracy at distance. If you let the BGs close to contact distance, you've given away your advantage.

Question: if someone lets you see their face while they commit a felony, do you feel they'll let witnesses live?
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 5:39:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By zzxx99:
the number one advantage a practiced shooter has over a criminal is accuracy at distance. If you let the BGs close to contact distance, you've given away your advantage.

Question: if someone lets you see their face while they commit a felony, do you feel they'll let witnesses live?




Very valid points. Better to end the threat than to be the victim.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 8:33:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By A-Train:

Originally Posted By zzxx99:
the number one advantage a practiced shooter has over a criminal is accuracy at distance. If you let the BGs close to contact distance, you've given away your advantage.

Question: if someone lets you see their face while they commit a felony, do you feel they'll let witnesses live?




Very valid points. Better to end the threat than to be the victim.



I agree fully with the first point,even if I didn't advocate it before.

As for the second,so many criminals aren't very bright and don't tend to think that far in advance.If they were going to kill everyone in the place anyway,I would tend to think they would do it right away.
But what do I know?Thankfully I've never been in a situation like this.

I wonder if this was a resturant that is frequented by latinos?The preps could have been counting on that to help with not being id'd or meeting any resistance.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 11:08:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gamachinist:

Originally Posted By A-Train:

Originally Posted By zzxx99:
the number one advantage a practiced shooter has over a criminal is accuracy at distance. If you let the BGs close to contact distance, you've given away your advantage.

Question: if someone lets you see their face while they commit a felony, do you feel they'll let witnesses live?




Very valid points. Better to end the threat than to be the victim.



I agree fully with the first point,even if I didn't advocate it before.

As for the second,so many criminals aren't very bright and don't tend to think that far in advance.If they were going to kill everyone in the place anyway,I would tend to think they would do it right away.
But what do I know?Thankfully I've never been in a situation like this.

I wonder if this was a resturant that is frequented by latinos?The preps could have been counting on that to help with not being id'd or meeting any resistance.



Great point on them not thinking ahead very much. I've found that most of the ones we catch invariably planned it poorly, or didn't plan at all and just grabbed a gun and went in for cash. A huge percentage of these shitbags are simply dopers or wannabe gangstas that only think enough to put together "walk in with gun and get money" with no plan of what to do if things go wrong. In fact a fair number of the ones I've personally caught didn't even have bullets in their weapon... or maybe a half full magazine of .380 rounds. Most only use the weapon for the intimidation factor. If really challenged with force they would likely run like rabbits rather than taking the time to shoot it out... but that's a gamble seeing as how there are the ones who are ready to rock & roll if challenged or caught. Luckily, in those situations most of them stole the gun and haven't even shot it and have very little, or no shooting experience... so if they hit you it would be luck. In the restaurant situation they'd probably pose a much larger risk to the innocents in the background than they would to whomever they were trying to hit.

The trained and proficient armed robber is pretty rare... especially if they're hitting small targets like restaurants and convenience stores. It's the professional robbers who focus on the big targets that are more likely to actually know what they're doing and have a plan.

Oh, and lastly, I can't remember ever seeing a real Latino eating at a mexican restaurant.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 6:47:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thompsondd:

Originally Posted By birdbarian:
Imagine if all of the patrons in the restaurant were packing. I wonder if anybody in there was.



Hummm, now that's an interesting twist.

50 armed, trained, law abiding citizens vs 4 douchebags is much better odds.

The only problem that I see in that scenario would be for the cornoner trying to determine which round was the actual cause of death.

Cornoner: "The perp has approx 79 bullet wounds of varying calibers. In my expert opinion, I would have to say he was hit with 5 different calibers at a minimum, possibly 7 to 8 max. Wounds are of varying size and variation among the temporary wound cavities is great. Shot placement seems fairly consistent except for those of Mrs. Birdbarian, who somehow managed to only inflict a fatal wound to the suspects getaway vehicle. Futhermore, there is no conclusive proof as to which is better; .45ACP or 9mm. The debate will still rage."



Fixed if for ya!!

p.s. Nice to see you around once in a while.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 2:25:43 AM EDT
Tough call. Are the BG's gonna go nuts if they find out you are carrying? They gonna take your pistol and use it on you? Are they gonna panic and think maybe others are carrying? Are you willing to give up your Gun to aviod a possible conflict? Do the guys look calm or nervous? If you shoot one bad guy do you think the others are gonna run? Or start shooting? Personally I think I would go down shooting before they had the chance to take my pistol and use it on me ...
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 3:06:07 AM EDT
I am starting to change my opinion. It looks like these may be the same guys that have been caught from Rome after robbing two stores in Cartersville and shooting a customer in the back. I am sure that the girl who got shot in the back was not carrying, but someone who was could have stopped this a long time ago.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 12:43:51 PM EDT
Is Dallas a "dry" city? Does the restaurant serve alcohol? If you were carrying in a restaurant that does serve alcohol and were not an LEO, you would be breaking the law and opening a whole new can of stupid, senseless worms if you chose to take action with your firearm, quite possibly leading to criminal prosecution and revocation of carry permit. BUT, if mine or my family's lives are on the line, LEAD IS FLYING!
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 4:02:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/24/2006 4:24:20 PM EDT by DaveS]

Originally Posted By ArmedChaos:
Is Dallas a "dry" city? Does the restaurant serve alcohol? If you were carrying in a restaurant that does serve alcohol and were not an LEO, you would be breaking the law and opening a whole new can of stupid, senseless worms if you chose to take action with your firearm, quite possibly leading to criminal prosecution and revocation of carry permit. BUT, if mine or my family's lives are on the line, LEAD IS FLYING!



I was just about to type the very exact words. Not one person above you brought that point out.

Dave S

I have a wife and three daughters... don't ask if I carry where I'm told I can't by lesser humans... Georgia Law Makers.

BTW, great place to eat. They know me.
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