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Posted: 9/13/2010 10:05:06 AM EDT
Just got back from a weekend of camping with the Boy Scouts where my youngest was inducted in to Order of the Arrow. (We live in St Louis)
I grew up in KC and am a proud Hardway Warrior of the Tribe of Mic-O-Say.

So what do you guys think? Which one is cooler??

(This is just for fun...they are both great programs)
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 11:04:42 AM EDT
OA!!!
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 12:03:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By egall45:
Just got back from a weekend of camping with the Boy Scouts where my youngest was inducted in to Order of the Arrow. (We live in St Louis)
I grew up in KC and am a proud Hardway Warrior of the Tribe of Mic-O-Say.

So what do you guys think? Which one is cooler??

(This is just for fun...they are both great programs)


You trying to stir some shit? Man, OA vs MoS in Scouting is like asking Glock or 1911 / AR vs AK around here.
Personally I am a bit biased, as an active staff member at the home of MoS. However I will relate some of my observations. It should also be noted that I am a Geiger Tribesman however while I do respect Bartle Tribesman I am not a fan of some of their practices.

I am the Health Officer at Geiger which gives me the opportunity to talk to allot of the leaders and kids about their experience at camp. For Geiger, and the Pony Express Council MoS is the only reason either still exist, the reverse is true also, MoS wouldn't survive in its current form in a larger council.

Geiger manages to attract 350-450 scouts (plus another 100 or so scouters) each 7 day camping session through out the year (6 sessions). 60% of those are out of council troops. We have troops come from all over the US, one from Texas has been coming for 6 years now.
All of these troops will say the exact same thing about MoS vs OA. The leadership, program, and the motivation for older campers to return is of a completely different caliber with MoS. This isn't to say that there aren't some very well run OA groups (lodges?) out there, but they seem to be the minority and don't last in the long term because of the ever changing leadership, or the ones that do are ran by the adults (which is what MoS is often criticized for).
The Pony Express Council and Heart of America (Bartle) both have some of the highest rates of returning campers, and more importantly, Eagle Scouts of any council in the US and are often looked at by National. Unfortunately MoS doesn't translate well to a National honor society, nor does it want to be. Hell the Bartle and Geiger reservations are barely on speaking terms on a good day, and allot of younger tribesmen don't know of the other's existence, let alone of the several other camps that also have MoS programs (or atleast programs very closely modeled after them).

Basically my thought: Go for MoS, the program is designed to keep the scout involved to a lot older age and only serves to reinforce the ideals of scouting and encourage the drive to obtain their Eagle. If you join a troop in St. Louis suggest to them that maybe they should give Geiger (or even Bartle ) a shot. Generally once a troop has tasted what MoS has to offer they won't go back to OA.
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 12:06:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/13/2010 12:06:15 PM EDT by Screechjet1]
Originally Posted By jhuggans:
OA!!!



[Terrible Terry Tate] DON'T BRING THAT WEAK-ASS SHIT INTO THIS HUMPY-BUMPY! [/Terrible Terry Tate]
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 12:12:07 PM EDT

If coolness is a factor, roll around Philmont in nothing but your claws and your swinging cod. I did, and I'm sure I'm still spoken of.
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 12:19:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Screechjet1:
Originally Posted By jhuggans:
OA!!!



[Terrible Terry Tate] DON'T BRING THAT WEAK-ASS SHIT INTO THIS HUMPY-BUMPY! [/Terrible Terry Tate]
0:21


Link Posted: 9/13/2010 12:26:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/13/2010 12:28:40 PM EDT by eric10mm]
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 12:41:04 PM EDT
When I was in scouts, the only thing I ever heard about was OA because of the people who ran our troop. So I don't know jack about MoS.
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 12:57:03 PM EDT
I ran into some M-o-S guys at the OA deal at S-F this weekend. They said the EXACT SAME THING about older scout retention. They have been taking a mixed troop from St Louis to the 6th session of Bartle for 3-4 years, and they have had boys come back and thank them, because they were about ready to quit, and M-o-S got them revitalized.

Our Scoutmaster went to the OA high command and asked if I could go to the actual induction ceremony, being a Hardway Warrior from MoS. They said no, so I had to sit in our campsite while they were marched off. That's OK. If we do go to Bartle in the future, there will be lots of things they won't be able to attend until they earn their stripes.

It took all my willpower not to stand off the trail and chant "...the worst is yet to come!!"
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 1:02:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By egall45:
I ran into some M-o-S guys at the OA deal at S-F this weekend. They said the EXACT SAME THING about older scout retention. They have been taking a mixed troop from St Louis to the 6th session of Bartle for 3-4 years, and they have had boys come back and thank them, because they were about ready to quit, and M-o-S got them revitalized.

Our Scoutmaster went to the OA high command and asked if I could go to the actual induction ceremony, being a Hardway Warrior from MoS. They said no, so I had to sit in our campsite while they were marched off. That's OK. If we do go to Bartle in the future, there will be lots of things they won't be able to attend until they earn their stripes.

It took all my willpower not to stand off the trail and chant "...the worst is yet to come!!"


I lol'd.

Link Posted: 9/13/2010 3:39:53 PM EDT
Mic-O-Say homey :)
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 3:49:32 PM EDT
I have heard Scouts who are from Order of the Arrow say Mic-o-Say is a lot more fun.

For what its worth, there are some actual Indians who help with different Mic-O-Say functions vs the Order of the Arrow being condoned by local Indians.

From what I have seen, nothing wrong with the Order of the Arrow, but if I lived close enough I would LOVE to have by sons attend Mic-O-Say!
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 5:46:19 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 5:54:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RedRyder21:
I have heard Scouts who are from Order of the Arrow say Mic-o-Say is a lot more fun.

For what its worth, there are some actual Indians who help with different Mic-O-Say functions vs the Order of the Arrow being condoned by local Indians.

From what I have seen, nothing wrong with the Order of the Arrow, but if I lived close enough I would LOVE to have by sons attend Mic-O-Say!


MoS was created to mimic and honor the traditions of the Native Americans, as our founder, H. Roe Bartle, had spent considerable time with them. That was done with their express approval.
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 6:01:06 PM EDT
I wish I lived close enough to have my sons be a part of it. When they are old enough I may try to find a way.
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 7:32:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/13/2010 7:32:48 PM EDT by smullen]
hmmm, I don't remember either one of them...

I do remember, getting this badge,



Sadly, I don't remember what it was for though,,,

I do have a lot of fond memories of growing up in the scouts, my dad was one of the Den leaders or whatever you call it.... I remember all the projects we worked on and he also helped a lot of the other boys, who did not have fathers there or around to help...

Good times...

Last week at our gun club meeting their was a guest speaker, you kid looked about 20 at most, was giving a presentation about the AED machine in the clubhouse, he was in full scout uniform...

Glad to see the B.S.A. is still going strong... I think the world would be a better place if all the boys were brought up in that enviorment...
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 7:47:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By smullen:
hmmm, I don't remember either one of them...

I do remember, getting this badge,

http://centennialdistrict.org/images/arrow_of_light.jpg

Sadly, I don't remember what it was for though,,,

I do have a lot of fond memories of growing up in the scouts, my dad was one of the Den leaders or whatever you call it.... I remember all the projects we worked on and he also helped a lot of the other boys, who did not have fathers there or around to help...

Good times...

Last week at our gun club meeting their was a guest speaker, you kid looked about 20 at most, was giving a presentation about the AED machine in the clubhouse, he was in full scout uniform...

Glad to see the B.S.A. is still going strong... I think the world would be a better place if all the boys were brought up in that enviorment...

Thats an arrow of light and to quote wikipedia
The Arrow of Light award is the highest award available to Cub Scouts. It requires the Scout to have earned the Webelos Scout badge and eight activity badges. In addition to the skill and activity requirements of the preceding ranks, the Arrow of Light requires Scouts to learn the Scout Promise and Scout Law, and visit one meeting and one activity of a Boy Scout troop, in preparation for advancing to the Boy Scouts. Earning the Arrow of Light will help earn many of the requirements for the lower ranks of the Boy Scouts. The Arrow of Light award is the only Cub Scout award[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cub_Scouting_%28Boy_Scouts_of_America%29#cite_note-15][note 1][/url] that can be worn on a Boy Scout uniform. Both Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts wear the badge below the left pocket. Adults wear the square-knot version of the badge above the left pocket. Cub Scouts who earn the Arrow of Light are eligible to join a Boy Scout Troop prior to turning the normally-required age of eleven.


As for all boys growing up scouting? Absolutely, there are some policies and practices of the BSA that I don't agree with, however I can say I truely believe that kids come through this program far better prepared for life.
The camp I work for has a UK contingent that visits every few years and the last time they were here I had the pleasure of observing them on the rifle and shotgun ranges... needless to say this was amusing. Its really the same for many of our more local troops, while I grew up in a rural area with allot of exposure to firearms we have many troops from urban environments that have never seen much less shot anything more than a cap gun. There are other program areas too that are fun, but those are relevant to this board's interests
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 7:50:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/13/2010 7:52:21 PM EDT by smullen]

Originally Posted By Noaccount:

Originally Posted By smullen:
hmmm, I don't remember either one of them...

I do remember, getting this badge,

http://centennialdistrict.org/images/arrow_of_light.jpg

Sadly, I don't remember what it was for though,,,

I do have a lot of fond memories of growing up in the scouts, my dad was one of the Den leaders or whatever you call it.... I remember all the projects we worked on and he also helped a lot of the other boys, who did not have fathers there or around to help...

Good times...

Last week at our gun club meeting their was a guest speaker, you kid looked about 20 at most, was giving a presentation about the AED machine in the clubhouse, he was in full scout uniform...

Glad to see the B.S.A. is still going strong... I think the world would be a better place if all the boys were brought up in that enviorment...

Thats an arrow of light and to quote wikipedia
The Arrow of Light award is the highest award available to Cub Scouts.It requires the Scout to have earned the Webelos Scout badge and eightactivity badges. In addition to the skill and activity requirements ofthe preceding ranks, the Arrow of Light requires Scouts to learn the Scout Promise and Scout Law,and visit one meeting and one activity of a Boy Scout troop, inpreparation for advancing to the Boy Scouts. Earning the Arrow of Lightwill help earn many of the requirements for the lower ranks of the BoyScouts. The Arrow of Light award is the only Cub Scout award[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cub_Scouting_%28Boy_Scouts_of_America%29#cite_note-15][note 1][/url]that can be worn on a Boy Scout uniform. Both Cub Scouts and Boy Scoutswear the badge below the left pocket. Adults wear the square-knotversion of the badge above the left pocket. Cub Scouts who earn theArrow of Light are eligible to join a Boy Scout Troop prior to turningthe normally-required age of eleven.




Sounds about right... I wish I could remember what the last level was that I made it too and what all badges I had...

I doubt my dad would even remember, I will ask about this next time I talk to him... I enjoy looking back on the good times...
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 7:12:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By smullen:
Last week at our gun club meeting their was a guest speaker, you kid looked about 20 at most, was giving a presentation about the AED machine in the clubhouse, he was in full scout uniform...


Was this at ARPC? Did they get an AED? Those are great little gadgets. I got trained on one at a previous employer, and they are nearly idiot-proof...and a real life-saver!

Guess I need to go to the monthly meetings...even if it wasn't at ARPC.

Link Posted: 9/14/2010 12:40:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2010 12:44:43 PM EDT by OpusXKC]
First, MoS in my opinion is a better program, and is much better at retaining and motiving young scouts than OA. I'm a Hard-Way Warrior with a full rainbow, and a brotherhood member in OA. After I did, OA, I never went back to another function. After doing Mic-O-Say I served three years on staff at Bartel.

For my father it was the same, he did OA with me, and that was that. He became an Honorary Warrior, and has served 13 years on staff at Geiger. So, you can do that math.

As for the Bartle vs Geiger deal, I've been involved at Bartle, and seen the Geiger ceremonies. Both are great programs, but Bartle has become to large IMHO.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 1:09:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2010 1:10:10 PM EDT by nobbie333]
Originally Posted By eric10mm:
Hardway Warrior Swift Raging Buffalo of the Great Tribe of Mic-O-Say here!

ETA: "DON'T PICK YOUR MUD!"


thank you this definitely picks up my day from Runner Breeze From the Sunrise

To end the argument if you stay in the Midwest Mic-0-Say would rule
but if you travel out side OA is more popular

I personal agree with OpusXKC
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:24:54 PM EDT
Mic-O-Say for me, TomTom Beater High Station.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 6:15:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By egall45:
Originally Posted By smullen:
Last week at our gun club meeting their was a guest speaker, you kid looked about 20 at most, was giving a presentation about the AED machine in the clubhouse, he was in full scout uniform...


Was this at ARPC? Did they get an AED? Those are great little gadgets. I got trained on one at a previous employer, and they are nearly idiot-proof...and a real life-saver!

Guess I need to go to the monthly meetings...even if it wasn't at ARPC.



Yep, ARPC... Yep, its kept in the Clubhouse on the wall...

Monthly Meetings, yes... We need more people to come to them... There is a lot of Club politics and things to be voted on... You always have a chance to input suggestions or concerns too...

LAst week they commented that out of over 1500 or 1800+ members I think, it was, only like 40 or so ever come and its the same 40....

Was my 1st meeting, but I thought it was interesting to see how and why things work... I will try and go to as many as I can from now on... I'd like to be more active in the club...
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 7:52:55 AM EDT
I am a Warrior in Mic-O-Say and Brotherhood in OA, was even a Chapter Chief for awhile.


I like Mic-O-Say better. OA was a cake walk after the Brave trials in Mic-O-Say.
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 8:20:02 AM EDT
Firebuilder Little Silent Shadow Stalker

OA is a popularity contest .. Mic-O-Say is NOT .. nuff said!
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