User Panel
Posted: 12/1/2008 10:36:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: eric10mm]
It's a sad sign of the times, but due to the recent rash of stolen firearms alerts this tacked post seems appropriate and tidier than a half-dozen individual tacked alert threads.
Please be sure to include contact info for you and the LE Depts that will be handling your investigation. |
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“When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.” Thomas Jefferson
"To punish me for my contempt of authority, Fate has made me an authority myself." Albert Einstein |
Stolen from the St. Louis Mills Hazelwood, MO mall parking lot out of my car outside the Circuir City on 21 NOV 08.
Description: Para PXT14 .45ACP Coyote Brown Black Furnature Ambi Safety Trijicon Night Sights Has a 2ID patch on one side of the Slide and on the oppisite side of the slide is a 1/38INF Crest also engraved on the slide is the phrase Let 'Em Come. PICS to follow If you have an info please send me a IM/Email here or contact: City of Hazelwood PD at 314-838-5000 |
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“When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.” Thomas Jefferson
"To punish me for my contempt of authority, Fate has made me an authority myself." Albert Einstein |
Hi, I am new on here and am looking forward to getting to know everyone. Hope all is going well and you guys are all having a great holiday season!
I hate to start my first post like this but I had a firearm stolen from me in September. Person kicked into my apartment and stole a CAI built Cetme from me. It has HK OD Green furniture on it. It has OD Green HK G3 Wide Handguards and OD green stock and grip. Please keep an eye out for it. I have made the police report back in September and I never heard anything back from them. The serial on the Cetme is #C54893 If anyone has seen it, please notify the police department immediately and send me a PM. Thank you! Rafael |
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“When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.” Thomas Jefferson
"To punish me for my contempt of authority, Fate has made me an authority myself." Albert Einstein |
Just asking for extra eyes the next time you guys go to a pawn store or something. I know the chances of me getting it back are slim and none and that Slim just left town, but...
From the EE stolen firearms thread: Stolen from vehicle in my driveway... Bushmaster AR-15 20" Ban era barrel, carry handle upper, A2 stock, palm swell pistol grip, standard front sight post, set screw marks on end of barrel where brake had been mounted during ban, scope mounted on top of carry handle (yeah I know, lol, waiting for deer season to be over before installing new flat top upper). Curious George sticker on lower receiver. Would really like to have the sticker back... Seriously though, Serial # L235231 No, I don't need any lectures on leaving guns in vehicles or shit like that, already kicked my own ass a few times today along with some ass chewings that only I could deliver. Guess I should be thankful, they left my .308 bolt gun that I have twice as much money in, plus left the 20 round mag that was in the gun case with the AR and the bolt gun. Evidently, I'm not the only one, deputy said that someone else on my street reported a firearm stolen from his truck earlier this week... And for those of you who don't know me or haven't already been to my house, this was in Jefferson City, MO Thanks guys |
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“When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.” Thomas Jefferson
"To punish me for my contempt of authority, Fate has made me an authority myself." Albert Einstein |
A Friend of mine home was broken into Monday night along with his laptop and digital camera the scumbags made off with some of his guns. Please keep an eye out.
1. Century Arms WASR 10 (Romanian) 7.62x39 laminated wood & baynet Ser.#IS-03**-79 W/NUMEROUS 20RD/30RD MAGS IN A BLACK BAG 2. SKS- CHINESE (NORINCO) STANDARD SIZE -REFINSHED STOCK ORANGE SLING GREEN ON SIDE OF STOCK SER.# N/A AT THIS TIME W/FEW PLASTIC HI-CAP MAGS 3.Taurus 24/7 9mm blued Ser.# TAN084** 4. Bulgarian Makarov 9x18 blued w/black Pearce rubber grips Ser.# 25 29** 5. NORINCO TOKAREV model 213 9mm blued Impoter B-WEST Ser.# 0997** W/RANGE BAG Thanks, Rick SGF, Mo. |
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“When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.” Thomas Jefferson
"To punish me for my contempt of authority, Fate has made me an authority myself." Albert Einstein |
Stolen in the Weston MO area.
Belongs to a friend of mine. Actually a friend or acquaintance of several of us here. Colt 1911 type series 80 Mk 4 stainless steel, the serial number is SS192200 Was in a GI Black Leather M6 Shoulder Holster Stolen sometime yesterday while Patrick was at work. If anyone sees this pistol or has any information contact Weston MO PD (816)640-2455 |
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“When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.” Thomas Jefferson
"To punish me for my contempt of authority, Fate has made me an authority myself." Albert Einstein |
I thought I might help out here by posting the links to the original threads of the stolen weapons that our kindly, Moderator, eric10mm, posted above when he started this thread and tacked it.
Stolen CAI built CETME S/N: C54893 Posted: 12/01/2008 Link to Original Thread Stolen Para PXT14 S/N: N/A Posted: 11/26/2008 Link to Original Thread Stolen Bushmaster AR-15 S/N: 235231 Posted: 11/22/2008 Link to Original Thread Stolen CIA WASR 10 (Romanian) S/N: IS-03**-79 Stolen SKS- CHINESE (NORINCO) S/N: N/A Stolen Taurus 24/7 9mm blued S/N: TAN084** Stolen Bulgarian Makarov 9x18 S/N: 25 29** Stolen NORINCO TOKAREV model 213 9mm S/N: 0997** Posted: 11/20/2008 Link to Original Thread Stolen Colt 1911 Series 80 Mk 4 stainless steel S/N: SS192200 Posted: 11/11/2008 Link to Original Thread |
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Some days, it's not even worth chewing through the restraints.
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The news just reported that they recovered over 500 stolen guns up in Lincoln county if anyone has something missing you may want to give them a call
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nothing new here (stolen spring of 03) but:
Kimber Classic Custom 1911 serial number K050620. Basic Kimber blued gun. Had an arched stainless steel mainspring housing on it when taken - that should make it stand out! any info IM or email me or call the Independence, MO PD ETA: Pending further information .. my pistol has potentially shown up in a murder in Belton about a month ago .. now the cops are trying to tell me that since its a "murder weapon" I can never get my STOLEN gun back ... WTF!!! |
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Saw this in the EE stolen thread:
jleslie1005:
Some scumbag kicked my back door in when I was at work last Friday 1/30/09. My basically new G19 was stolen along with my DPMS ar-15, an AK-47, and my xbox 360 along with 4 wireless controllers... Any information would be great. I dont have the s/n for the AR and AK right off hand, I will post them later on. The Glock 19 s/n is LZV991. It is all black, with a Houge rubber grip. Along with it, there were 3 - 15 round mags, 1 - 33 round mag, and a speed loader. One of the mags was loaded with Hydra-Shok's. Thats about all the info I have. NOW I play the waiting game, and see what the cops come up with.. Thanks for your time.. |
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What have you done America?
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Originally Posted By melonjr:
Saw this in the EE stolen thread: jleslie1005:
Some scumbag kicked my back door in when I was at work last Friday 1/30/09. My basically new G19 was stolen along with my DPMS ar-15, an AK-47, and my xbox 360 along with 4 wireless controllers... Any information would be great. I dont have the s/n for the AR and AK right off hand, I will post them later on. The Glock 19 s/n is LZV991. It is all black, with a Houge rubber grip. Along with it, there were 3 - 15 round mags, 1 - 33 round mag, and a speed loader. One of the mags was loaded with Hydra-Shok's. Thats about all the info I have. NOW I play the waiting game, and see what the cops come up with.. Thanks for your time.. This occured in Kansas City, MO. Here is the link to the original post: Link to "STOLEN Glock 19. Kansas City, MO" |
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Some days, it's not even worth chewing through the restraints.
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Stolen from the Kansas City / Gladstone area 1/30/09.
DPMS A-15 - F052116K - a2 upper, black/OD green Romanian AK-47 - 1348282002 - black/woodgrain Glock model 19 - LZV991 - black, houge grip Xbox 360 - 211917783705 - worth a try.. lol Thanks! |
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Stolen from a buddies truck in Downtown St Louis, Soulard area 2-13-09 Glock 27 .40 serial# HPC252. Please let me know if this shows up.
Thanks Michael |
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Originally Posted By HAMMERDROP:
Stolen from a buddies truck in Soulard area 2-13-09 Glock 27 .40 serial# HPC252. Please let me know if this shows up. Thanks Michael ouch, I'll keep an eye out |
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16MAR09
Springfield area. A friend of mine had an AR15 and two Kimbers stolen from his home while he was at work. (Make and models to follow) They did it it broad daylight. They left a shotgun and many other semi-expensive items. He had a Stack-On gun vault that they opened with what appears to be a pry bar. TIP: Get a real gun safe if you can. |
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"Warrant Officers - Quiet Professionals"
Former NCO |
Dang, I hate to see this thread bumped up to the top. I hope they catch the scumbags and get the guns back!
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“When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.” Thomas Jefferson
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The police have recovered 2 of my firearms... My AK-47 was found across state lines, in a KS pawn shop. The owner says I have to buy it back for what he paid for it. That does not sound right to me. IF he followed procedure, wouldnt he of seen that it was on the "hot" list, and would not of bought it. If you ask me, it should be HIS loss, and I should get my rifle back for no cost. My Glock 19 was found in a drug sting bust in Independence, damn meth dealers.. I assume the LOW LIFE that stole my firearms traded them for drugs from the local meth dealer, and pawned them for money to go back to the dealer and get his next fix... No word yet on the AR.
On another note. Does anyone have any advice to offer, in regards to the pawn shop telling me I have to buy it back? Is that legit? Thanks for your time.. - Jesse |
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One would think the popo would take it as evidence, and then hopefully somewhere down the line you'd get it back assuming you can properly prove ownership.
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“When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.” Thomas Jefferson
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See thats what I thought. Maybe thats what they will end up doing. Since it has only been a short time since they discovered it there, it may take a little longer to do so. They told me that there was a "police hold" on the rifle, so they pawn shop guy could not move it... I'll let you guys know what happens, since some of the people here may have been a victim of this guy(s) as well, who really knows. Thanks!
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Originally Posted By jleslie1005:
On another note. Does anyone have any advice to offer, in regards to the pawn shop telling me I have to buy it back? Is that legit? Thanks for your time.. - Jesse there is some bullshit law that protects scumbag pawnbrokers .. unfortunately he is "technically" right .. sorry man I wish I could tell you something else. |
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Don't worry .. relax and have a homebrew!
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Originally Posted By jleslie1005:
The police have recovered 2 of my firearms... My AK-47 was found across state lines, in a KS pawn shop. The owner says I have to buy it back for what he paid for it. That does not sound right to me. IF he followed procedure, wouldnt he of seen that it was on the "hot" list, and would not of bought it. If you ask me, it should be HIS loss, and I should get my rifle back for no cost. My Glock 19 was found in a drug sting bust in Independence, damn meth dealers.. I assume the LOW LIFE that stole my firearms traded them for drugs from the local meth dealer, and pawned them for money to go back to the dealer and get his next fix... No word yet on the AR. On another note. Does anyone have any advice to offer, in regards to the pawn shop telling me I have to buy it back? Is that legit? Thanks for your time.. - Jesse File a police report with his local PD. File a small claims case against him in his local court for return of your property. |
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Originally Posted By jjtroutbum:
Originally Posted By jleslie1005:
The police have recovered 2 of my firearms... My AK-47 was found across state lines, in a KS pawn shop. The owner says I have to buy it back for what he paid for it. That does not sound right to me. IF he followed procedure, wouldnt he of seen that it was on the "hot" list, and would not of bought it. If you ask me, it should be HIS loss, and I should get my rifle back for no cost. My Glock 19 was found in a drug sting bust in Independence, damn meth dealers.. I assume the LOW LIFE that stole my firearms traded them for drugs from the local meth dealer, and pawned them for money to go back to the dealer and get his next fix... No word yet on the AR. On another note. Does anyone have any advice to offer, in regards to the pawn shop telling me I have to buy it back? Is that legit? Thanks for your time.. - Jesse File a police report with his local PD. File a small claims case against him in his local court for return of your property. Forget that! How are your guns NOT in a Police evidence locker? A crime was committed, right? The stolen merchandise has been found, right? I'd be all over the popo to get your stuff back! |
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“When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.” Thomas Jefferson
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mind letting us know who this azzhat pawnbroker is?
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I don't know about Kansas, but in Missouri there is a similar law (unless it has changed).
Years ago the pawn brokers snuck through a law hidden within a real estate bill. Why a real estate bill? Because pawn brokers tend to be slum lords as well... The new law basically says that if you find your stolen goods in a pawn shop, you have to pay them what they paid to the bum that stole it in the first place if you want it back. This makes buying stolen goods much less risky for a pawn shop - they are not out a dime. You then have to sue the thief in court to get your money back. Yeah, right... When I was in college, my pool cue was stolen from my room mate's car. I found it in the pawn shop right before the new law went into effect. I got my cue back and the pawn shop was out the money. Screw 'em. |
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Again I ask, how is your stolen property, also known as evidence since a crime was committed, NOT in a police evidence locker?
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“When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.” Thomas Jefferson
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Well, this fucking sucks, I'm so GD pissed off right now I can't see straight.
Had a Springfield XD-9 SC stolen out of my truck last night. Police left about an hour ago. Serial #: US987020 St. Charles PD is investigating. FUCK! |
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Originally Posted By eric10mm:
Again I ask, how is your stolen property, also known as evidence since a crime was committed, NOT in a police evidence locker? The ironic part about this is that if you or I had bought the stolen gun from the pawnbroker it would be seized and returned to the owner. Then it would be our responsibility to get a refund from the pawnbroker. |
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Originally Posted By Ray62406:
Originally Posted By eric10mm:
Again I ask, how is your stolen property, also known as evidence since a crime was committed, NOT in a police evidence locker? The ironic part about this is that if you or I had bought the stolen gun from the pawnbroker it would be seized and returned to the owner. Then it would be our responsibility to get a refund from the pawnbroker. Ironic is one word. I prefer asinine myself. I always hate to see this thread bumped up top so I was pleasantly surprised when there wasn't a new loss listed. |
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“When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.” Thomas Jefferson
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I had my place of business broke into early this morning(28 min after midnight), and I had 5 handguns stolen:
Taurus Model 85 .38special Ser#CS65917 Taurus Judge Public Defender/Stainless Steel 410/45LC Ser#CS815154 Springfield Armory XDM 9mm Ser#MG955634 Springfield Armory XDM Bi-tone 9mm Ser#MG956643 Ruger SR9 9mm Ser#330-63099 The person will be looking for magazines for the semi-autos. Also if any of you work at or know people that work at pawn shops or places that take trades on guns, please pass this along. If you have any information regarding the weapons above please contact the Pulaski County Sheriff's Department @ 573-774-6196 All firearms have been recovered and 2 arrested in connection with the stolen firearms. Thanks, George |
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IM sent to AWDTerror
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Originally Posted By jleslie1005:
The police have recovered 2 of my firearms... My AK-47 was found across state lines, in a KS pawn shop. The owner says I have to buy it back for what he paid for it. That does not sound right to me. IF he followed procedure, wouldnt he of seen that it was on the "hot" list, and would not of bought it. If you ask me, it should be HIS loss, and I should get my rifle back for no cost. My Glock 19 was found in a drug sting bust in Independence, damn meth dealers.. I assume the LOW LIFE that stole my firearms traded them for drugs from the local meth dealer, and pawned them for money to go back to the dealer and get his next fix... No word yet on the AR. On another note. Does anyone have any advice to offer, in regards to the pawn shop telling me I have to buy it back? Is that legit? Thanks for your time.. - Jesse He can give it back or be arrested by ATF for posession of a stolen firearm, its his choice. Call the FBI, don't mess with locals. |
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Pacis per vires quod Licentia per DEUS
Eotech 557.4XFTS. Like surfing the web, just point, and click! |
Originally Posted By Joker23:
I don't know about Kansas, but in Missouri there is a similar law (unless it has changed). Years ago the pawn brokers snuck through a law hidden within a real estate bill. Why a real estate bill? Because pawn brokers tend to be slum lords as well... The new law basically says that if you find your stolen goods in a pawn shop, you have to pay them what they paid to the bum that stole it in the first place if you want it back. This makes buying stolen goods much less risky for a pawn shop - they are not out a dime. You then have to sue the thief in court to get your money back. Yeah, right... When I was in college, my pool cue was stolen from my room mate's car. I found it in the pawn shop right before the new law went into effect. I got my cue back and the pawn shop was out the money. Screw 'em. Problem is, this is Federal! He doesn't get off the hook for possessing stolen firearms! |
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Pacis per vires quod Licentia per DEUS
Eotech 557.4XFTS. Like surfing the web, just point, and click! |
Stolen from the Kansas City area... Glock 19 - LZV991
Romanian AK-47 - 211917783705 DPMS ar-15 - F052116K - black & OD green Thanks! |
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I hate to see this thread bumped, i'll keep my eyes open in the springfield pawn shops
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Constitutions are written in blood...not simply thought up. We cannot change the world by just having an idea, we have to act upon that idea and make it happen.
Jesus is all you need |
Will update with serials and pictures tonight.
Remington 870 - Department gun Glock 22 - Department gun RRA Ar15 - Department gun Glock 22C,23,27, Thompson Center renegade 54 cal Cabelas hawken style 54 cal DPMS AR15 Marlin 336 30-30 Marlin Golden 39a Marlin model 99 Marlin-glenfield model 60 Springfield xdm9 Stevens Model 62 GSG-5 (just got less than a week ago from a member here) Western auto 22 (was my dads gun, more pissed about this one) Stevens single shot 20 gauge 44 cal black powder pistol. gold and black with wood handle Various holsters and ammo was taken as well. Only guns they didnt get was my Glock 32 (was on my side) and a brescia that I was working on Was at my wifes graduation Saturday in Columbia MO and someone snatched them. My safe as well (small safe with papers, bonds, and whatnot.) And since it was the weekend I took my department guns out of my patrol car for safe keeping. Go figure right Posted this in the Equipment exchange section as well. *ETA Guns Located on traffic stop this morning. Will update when I know more* |
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Originally Posted By LTBeas:
Will update with serials and pictures tonight. Remington 870 - Department gun Glock 22 - Department gun RRA Ar15 - Department gun Glock 22C,23,27, Thompson Center renegade 54 cal Cabelas hawken style 54 cal DPMS AR15 Marlin 336 30-30 Marlin Golden 39a Marlin model 99 Marlin-glenfield model 60 Springfield xdm9 Stevens Model 62 GSG-5 (just got less than a week ago from a member here) Western auto 22 (was my dads gun, more pissed about this one) Stevens single shot 20 gauge 44 cal black powder pistol. gold and black with wood handle Various holsters and ammo was taken as well. Only guns they didnt get was my Glock 32 (was on my side) and a brescia that I was working on Was at my wifes graduation Saturday in Columbia MO and someone snatched them. My safe as well (small safe with papers, bonds, and whatnot.) And since it was the weekend I took my department guns out of my patrol car for safe keeping. Go figure right Posted this in the Equipment exchange section as well. Was it a marked car in your driveway? If so that was damn ballsy! Sucks anyway man, get us some #s, I will check our pawn shop tomorrow and get a my Det buddy at county to check the other shops in the co. A little far away but might get lucky. |
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37 Handguns stolen from 417 Guns on campbell. Brent is offering a $1000 reward or make it worth your while. If anyone knows anything or here's anything call Brent at his shop.
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Yes, we did produce a near-perfect republic. But will they keep it? Or will they, in the enjoyment of plenty, lose the memory of freedom? Material abundance without character is the path of destruction. - Thomas Jefferson
Jesus is all you need |
Stolen from Eagle Eye Shooting Supply , Mountain Grove sometime last week:
Smith and Wesson model 59 9mm pistol, blue Looks brand new, has a pair of Pachmayer rubber grips on it. This is probably a 70s vintage pistol but has no wear on it. Ill get the serial number posted here later. If you have any info or see this gun, call Eagle Eye at 417-926-7943 or contact the Mountain Grove PD. Reports have been filed with the PD and the BATFE. |
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Man I hate to see this thread get bumped.
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“When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.” Thomas Jefferson
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Had my Keltec P3at(380) Stolen out of my truck in Kansas City northland.
#JNY56 |
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Damn I hate to see this thread get bumped.
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“When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.” Thomas Jefferson
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Lost Had an WASR2 STOLEN out of the car today. The rifle was in a red guitar hero guitar bag.
5.45 WASR2 5 Plum mags in blackhawk chest rig (loaded w/ steel case) Ace left side folder (galil style) Spec-Ops tan sling UTG rail Magpul MIAD grip TLR-1 light SERIAL–– 21946006 |
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A good friend of mine's parents house was robbed, they used a cutting torch on his dads gunsafe and made off with several winchester high walls, AR-15's, and a stainless 617 as well as his car and other things.
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What part of Missouri if I may ask?
Sounds like they knew what they were getting into. Originally Posted By native4alpha: A good friend of mine's parents house was robbed, they used a cutting torch on his dads gunsafe and made off with several winchester high walls, AR-15's, and a stainless 617 as well as his car and other things. |
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http://www.missouricarry.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56992
Local Home NW Mo firearms/safe/valueables stolen! Passing this info along. My sister-in-law has a neighbor in Paradise, MO in Clay County who's home was broken into this past week. The lowlife scum/s stole the entire gun safe with all contents, and other valuables from their home to include gold bars and jewelry. Here is a list of firearms with serial numbers so please be on the lookout if you would. I will be glad to pass along any information and will keep all info confidential. SN S969944V Remington 870 Wingmaster 12ga pump, mod choke SN M735383V Remington 1100 auto 12ga, mod choke SN N968335V Remington 1100 auto, 12ga Fajen adjustable stock, trap, full SN M70884 Winchester Super X, 12ga, trap grade, w/skeet choke tube SN M25269 Winchester Super X, 12ga, full choke, Fajen adjustable stock SN 22496 Browning 20ga, Belgium, gold trigger SN 6905162 Remington model 742, .308 win, woodmaster, weaver scope, semi-auto SN 169664 Lancaster Arms, double SxS, 1146, old wall hanger SN 2749B37 Browning 20ga, SxS SN 69G8057 Browning 12ga, Light twelve, Belgium SN N101500V Remington 1100, camo stock, 26" bbl, 12ga auto SN AA089896 Beretta AL391 Urika Sporting Sport, 12ga auto SN 452908 Winchester model 12, pigeon, full, trap SN 60626 Winchester 30-30, centennial 66, 1866-1966 lever action SN 1308487E Norinco China Poly USA, Atl Ga (08487 on bolt) SN ST01941 Remington 90T Trap, 12ga single bbl, soft touch stock, no safety SN ST01173 Remington 90T Trap, 12ga single bbl, no trigger, butt stock SN 71D07695 Browning BT99, 12ga, single bbl, trap grade, full choke SN 254026 Hi Standard model H-D, military, target bbl, .22 auto SN 783844 Colt Detective Special, .38 spl, CTG snub nose, nickle plated SN 889748 Smith and Wesson .38 spl, dbl action, 6 shot SN 9K64576 Smith and Wesson .357 magnum, dbl action, 6 shot, stainless SN (none) Ruger Security Six .357 magnum, dbl action 6 shot, nickle plated Feel free to distribute this list, spread the word and please keep an eye out |
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"Raise the black flag and ride hard boys! Our cause is just, and our enemies many!" William Quantrill
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All black Kel Tec P-11 #130325 (9mm)
Ten round magazine loaded with Hornady Critical Defense rounds. The top of the slide has some small rust pitting from sitting in a damp holster. Stolen out of my car within the last month, most likely in St. Charles County. |
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Be on the look out for a Firestar .45acp, Taurus 44mag 8in barrel, s&w model 10 38spl, And a 45lc single action (not sure on make). Stolen from N.E. Missouri home.
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Originally Posted By iowabuckhunter: Be on the look out for a Firestar .45acp, Taurus 44mag 8in barrel, s&w model 10 38spl, And a 45lc single action (not sure on make). Stolen from N.E. Missouri home. More details would help the BOLO alert. I mean, they did make quite a few Model 10s. |
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“When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.” Thomas Jefferson
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It is a parkerized square butt. That is all I know. Looks like the Victory model but 38 special ???
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apparently recovered
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