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Posted: 3/27/2006 8:20:38 AM EDT
I looked at packing.org and through the AL laws. I couldn't find anything that said you could or could not carry in restaurants that server alcohol for consumption on the premises. In GA it is a no no. Some states its OK.

Can ya'll help a brother out? I'm going to Huntsville this week for a few days.

Are there any ranges in the Huntsville area where I can shoot after work (assuming I'm not working 15 hour days)?
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 9:46:09 AM EDT
My permit specifically states that it is not valid anywhere that serves alcohol. It sucks. It is the one thing I want changed about concealed carry in AL.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 10:08:40 AM EDT
It is illegal, but I cannot find the specific law. It should be under Title 13A, but I just have not found it.
www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/coatoc.htm
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 10:52:11 AM EDT
Mine says everywhere but schools, city, county and federal buildings
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 10:54:47 AM EDT
My permit (jefferson county) does not say anything about carry in or around places that serve alcohol.

eight, what county are you in?



Swan Creek WMA has a really nice range that is open to the public. You are supposed to have an Alabama State Hunting license to use the range, but I have never seen anyone get checked.

Vague directions to Swan Creek WMA.
Go west on I565 towards Decatur. Continue straight on I565 going past the I-65 junction. I-565 turns into a state hwy after this. Not sure what # the Hwy is. You will come to an interchange and take a right onto another state HWY (toward Calhoun Community College). Go until you see the Thompson Catipilar on your left. Take a left at the light next to the catipilar store. You'll be on a small road now. Go a couple of miles on this long and sometimes windy road. The range will be on your right, you shoulc be able to see it from the road easily right about the time your passing the entrance to it.

Hope that helps.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 1:03:35 PM EDT
I am currently in Elmore. When I was in Montgomery county, my permit said the same thing.

So, some say it is a law, others know nothing about it. Do the counties make the rules regarding the carry, or is the permit issued by county for state laws?
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 1:26:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2006 1:31:09 PM EDT by HardShell]

Originally Posted By Eight:
I am currently in Elmore. When I was in Montgomery county, my permit said the same thing.

So, some say it is a law, others know nothing about it. Do the counties make the rules regarding the carry, or is the permit issued by county for state laws?



Our Elmore County permits say several things that don't gee-haw with state statute/case-law...




FWIW, the PISTOL PERMIT is repeatedly underlined in this pic because I originally scanned & posted this into a CCW thread in which I was being berated by a non-Alabamian for calling it a "permit" - which is what it has always been called here AFAIK.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 1:39:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gunham:
It is illegal, but I cannot find the specific law. It should be under Title 13A, but I just have not found it.
www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/coatoc.htm



13A-11-50 through -85 deals with firearms, permits, etc. It has this little gem...



Section 13A-11-76

Delivery to minors, habitual drunkards, etc.

No person shall deliver a pistol to any person under the age of 18 or to one who he has reasonable cause to believe has been convicted of a crime of violence or is a drug addict, an habitual drunkard or of unsound mind.

(Acts 1936, Ex. Sess., No. 82, p. 51; Code 1940, T. 14, §178; Acts 1951, No. 784, p. 1378; Code 1975, §13-6-156.)



... but nothing about the specific question at hand. I suspect something this specific is left up to the issuing authority (IOW, the CLEO, in Alabama the County Sheriff), even though IMHO it should be standardized statewide and in the Code in black & white...
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 4:20:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2006 4:23:38 PM EDT by birdbarian]
Thanks for all the replies.

I guess the vagueness explains why I couldn't find it on Packing.org or in the laws.

Are there any gun stores with ranges that might be open after dinner time?

ETA: remind me not to mess with Hardshell (6'3 240lbs).
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 4:42:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Eight:
I am currently in Elmore. When I was in Montgomery county, my permit said the same thing.

So, some say it is a law, others know nothing about it. Do the counties make the rules regarding the carry, or is the permit issued by county for state laws?


My Montgomery permit used to say that too, but it doesn't any longer. My Mobile permit also said that; I do not know if they still do. I've tried to find the law that restricts carry, but can't. Because AL permits are discretionary, I'm guessing the sheriff can come up with any rule he wants....
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 4:54:14 PM EDT
montgomery no longer specifies specific places
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 6:18:17 PM EDT
Dang, I guess Elmore was just left out in the cold. I know right after I moved to Elmore, Montgomery went to the plastic photo permits, which is when the wording about alcohol was dropped (I think).

Maybe I'll call the sheriff and ask about whether it's state law, or a local decision. Elmore and Montgomery permits used to be the exact same, prior to Montgomery's change.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 6:57:31 PM EDT
The only places that are verboten per STATE law are "Demonstrations" being held in a "public place" and public schools, (defined as grades k-12) with the 'intent to do bodily harm". Hmmm.

My Shelby county permit says only that my permit is not valid if I myself am shitfaced. It places no other restrictions on where I can or canot carry than those prohibited by state law.

So, to answer you question, per STATE law, it is not illegal to CCW in a resataurant or bar, but it is apparently up to the locality to make it so if they see fit, and apparently some do.

Clear as mud, huh?

Link to the Alabama AG's Alabama Weapons law PDF:
Official Alabama AG Wepaons Law


SG
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 7:14:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ScaryGuy:
Link to the Alabama AG's Alabama Weapons law PDF:
Official Alabama AG Wepaons Law


That's not very helpful. The word "alcohol" isn't even mentioned. Only "habitual drunkard" comes close, but it has nothing to do with establishments that serve alcohol. I guess it really is up to the sheriff of each county the way issuing pistol permits is.

Has anyone looked through the Attorney General's official opinions to see if there is anything there?
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 5:46:00 AM EDT
There is no law that I'm aware of concerning carry in a drinking establishment.


Those rules on the back of your CCW card are mostly the Sheriffis rules. Not state law.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 8:08:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HardShell:

Originally Posted By Eight:
I am currently in Elmore. When I was in Montgomery county, my permit said the same thing.

So, some say it is a law, others know nothing about it. Do the counties make the rules regarding the carry, or is the permit issued by county for state laws?



Our Elmore County permits say several things that don't gee-haw with state statute/case-law...

i2.photobucket.com/albums/y12/HardShell/RWB%20-%20General/Permit.jpg


FWIW, the PISTOL PERMIT is repeatedly underlined in this pic because I originally scanned & posted this into a CCW thread in which I was being berated by a non-Alabamian for calling it a "permit" - which is what it has always been called here AFAIK.



It's funny. The very first item addresses open carry and open carry is legal here without a permit.

Again most of the stuff listed on the back of permit is Sheriff rules not state law.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 8:14:43 AM EDT
Just looked at the back of mine the only restriction is:

This permit is not valid if the holder is under the influence of intoxicating liquors or drugs.

That's it.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 11:30:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
Just looked at the back of mine the only restriction is:

This permit is not valid if the holder is under the influence of intoxicating liquors or drugs.

That's it.



Bama, I though you were a LEO.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 11:49:01 AM EDT
Speaking of cross-state carry, what is valid for the person traveling? birdbarian was issued a permit (in GA) to carry that restricts carry into places that serve alcohol. If he comes to AL, is he bound by what his permit allows for in the issuing state? Can he carry in a place that serves alcohol if AL has no law against it?

Same thing with cross-county travel. If Montomery county now allows for carry in places that serve alcohol, can someone from Elmore county carry in a restaurant that serves alcohol in Montgomery county, since (in this case) it appears to be up to the county sheriff?

Link Posted: 3/28/2006 1:10:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By birdbarian:

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
Just looked at the back of mine the only restriction is:

This permit is not valid if the holder is under the influence of intoxicating liquors or drugs.

That's it.



Bama, I though you were a LEO.



Well, I was a former LEO, just got rehired today.

But there is no law concerning carrying in bar/restraunt.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 1:11:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Eight:
Speaking of cross-state carry, what is valid for the person traveling? birdbarian was issued a permit (in GA) to carry that restricts carry into places that serve alcohol. If he comes to AL, is he bound by what his permit allows for in the issuing state? Can he carry in a place that serves alcohol if AL has no law against it?

Same thing with cross-county travel. If Montomery county now allows for carry in places that serve alcohol, can someone from Elmore county carry in a restaurant that serves alcohol in Montgomery county, since (in this case) it appears to be up to the county sheriff?




Those are Sheriffs rules not state law.

Link Posted: 3/28/2006 2:50:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:

Those are Sheriffs rules not state law.



Could you expand on that a little? My permit from Elmore says not valid where alcohol is served, but I am in a Montgomery business that serves alcohol. Montgomery doesn't restrict based on alcohol. Can I carry or not? Since you are LEO, if you were in Montgomery and asked to see my permit in a restaurant, how do you proceed after seeing my permit?
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 3:36:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Eight:

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:

Those are Sheriffs rules not state law.



Could you expand on that a little? My permit from Elmore says not valid where alcohol is served, but I am in a Montgomery business that serves alcohol. Montgomery doesn't restrict based on alcohol. Can I carry or not? Since you are LEO, if you were in Montgomery and asked to see my permit in a restaurant, how do you proceed after seeing my permit?


I would assume that the rules set by the sheriff of your county only pertain to his county. While you're in Montgomery county, you have to play by the Montgomery county sheriff's rules.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 3:44:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Eight:

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:

Those are Sheriffs rules not state law.



Could you expand on that a little? My permit from Elmore says not valid where alcohol is served, but I am in a Montgomery business that serves alcohol. Montgomery doesn't restrict based on alcohol. Can I carry or not? Since you are LEO, if you were in Montgomery and asked to see my permit in a restaurant, how do you proceed after seeing my permit?



You really should contact the Sheriff's office in Elmore Co. There is NO law concerning carrying in drinking establishments. I would never assume to tell someone how a Sheriff would react.

Now as to me, if you are not the causing a problem, Have a nice day.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 4:26:39 PM EDT
It's simple. Obey what your sheriff put on your permit in his county. Outside the county, obey state law
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 6:41:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By USPC40:

Originally Posted By ScaryGuy:
Link to the Alabama AG's Alabama Weapons law PDF:
Official Alabama AG Wepaons Law


That's not very helpful. The word "alcohol" isn't even mentioned. Only "habitual drunkard" comes close, but it has nothing to do with establishments that serve alcohol. I guess it really is up to the sheriff of each county the way issuing pistol permits is.

Has anyone looked through the Attorney General's official opinions to see if there is anything there?



Yep.

The only thing I can find that is specifically prohibited is the "Demonstration" in a "Public place" (Defined as a political rally type event, and specifically exempting LEOS) and the Public School exemption IF you have "Intent to do harm" WTF, over? Reading that, it seems to me, is exemting those of us that take a kid to school but have a gun in the car. It also defines public school as K thru 12.

Sometimes I wish our laws were a little less ambiguous, but otoh, I have learned to be careful what I wish for. I might get TOO specific.

Who knows?

SG
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 6:51:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Eight:
Speaking of cross-state carry, what is valid for the person traveling? birdbarian was issued a permit (in GA) to carry that restricts carry into places that serve alcohol. If he comes to AL, is he bound by what his permit allows for in the issuing state? Can he carry in a place that serves alcohol if AL has no law against it?

Same thing with cross-county travel. If Montomery county now allows for carry in places that serve alcohol, can someone from Elmore county carry in a restaurant that serves alcohol in Montgomery county, since (in this case) it appears to be up to the county sheriff?




I was thinking about the same thing. Since I'll be in AL, and there's no law against it in AL, then there's no crime. If I had an AL permit and carried in a bar in GA, then I would be breaking the law.

I was really puzzled about the whole thing because most states address the matter directly if ambiguously.

Bama,

Thanks for adding some clarity to the muddy waters.

I'll be there tomorrow evening. If I get locked up, I'll see if they'll let me get on the Internet instead of making a call so ya'll can come and bail me out.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 6:58:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ScaryGuy:

Originally Posted By USPC40:

Originally Posted By ScaryGuy:
Link to the Alabama AG's Alabama Weapons law PDF:
Official Alabama AG Wepaons Law


That's not very helpful. The word "alcohol" isn't even mentioned. Only "habitual drunkard" comes close, but it has nothing to do with establishments that serve alcohol. I guess it really is up to the sheriff of each county the way issuing pistol permits is.

Has anyone looked through the Attorney General's official opinions to see if there is anything there?



Yep.

The only thing I can find that is specifically prohibited is the "Demonstration" in a "Public place" (Defined as a political rally type event, and specifically exempting LEOS) and the Public School exemption IF you have "Intent to do harm" WTF, over? Reading that, it seems to me, is exemting those of us that take a kid to school but have a gun in the car. It also defines public school as K thru 12.

Sometimes I wish our laws were a little less ambiguous, but otoh, I have learned to be careful what I wish for. I might get TOO specific.

Who knows?

SG



Only when they are on duty.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 7:16:57 PM EDT
My Blount County permit looks just like the one posted by HardShell. I really don't have to worry about taking my gun into a place in blount co. that serves alcohol, since we're dry. However, I do eat out in Jefferson County regularly. How does Mike Hale (JeffCo's Sheriff) feel about this subject?
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 9:12:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By brain3278:
My permit (jefferson county) does not say anything about carry in or around places that serve alcohol.

eight, what county are you in?



Swan Creek WMA has a really nice range that is open to the public. You are supposed to have an Alabama State Hunting license to use the range, but I have never seen anyone get checked.

Vague directions to Swan Creek WMA.
Go west on I565 towards Decatur. Continue straight on I565 going past the I-65 junction. I-565 turns into a state hwy 72 after this. Not sure what # the Hwy is. You will come to an interchange and take a right onto another state HWY 31 north(toward Calhoun Community College). Go until you see the Thompson Catipilar on your left. Take a left at the light next to the catipilar store going west. You'll be on a small road now. Go a couple of miles on this long and sometimes windy road, you'll pass the RR tracks, a big curve to the right and another big curve to the left ending up going west again; take the first right after the creek bridge about 1/2 mile past the last curve. The range will be on your right, you shoulc be able to see it from the road easily right about the time your passing the entrance to it.

Hope that helps.



Ditto, hope this helps.

Merlin
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 5:33:53 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 6:06:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
how can a SHerriff make "rules" that trump state law?



Because there is God and then the Sheriff. God does not sign the paper work.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 6:16:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
how can a SHerriff make "rules" that trump state law?



I was gonna say the same thing! But then I agree that it probably wouldn't matter until you appealed it in two or three courts and got it to state.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 5:59:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By birdbarian:
... ETA: remind me not to mess with Hardshell (6'3 240lbs).



Sadly I haven't seen 240# since I got married, they just haven't updated it...


... but I'm working on it!
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 6:01:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By USPC40:
... Has anyone looked through the Attorney General's official opinions to see if there is anything there?



I have a buddy who's in the AG's Office now (Capital Litigation) and is a real "gun guy." If he doesn't know I'm sure he can search it quicker than I could. I'll ask him...
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 5:39:06 PM EDT
I didn't get arrested.

Rosie's has some good food. It's the first Mexican place I've ever been to that didn't have any Mexicans working there. Very weird.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 6:38:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HardShell:

Originally Posted By USPC40:
... Has anyone looked through the Attorney General's official opinions to see if there is anything there?



I have a buddy who's in the AG's Office now (Capital Litigation) and is a real "gun guy." If he doesn't know I'm sure he can search it quicker than I could. I'll ask him...



Get him to get T. King to issue an opinion that SBRs and SBS are ok if ATF tax paid and ownership approved by ATF
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 6:46:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By alaman:

Originally Posted By HardShell:

Originally Posted By USPC40:
... Has anyone looked through the Attorney General's official opinions to see if there is anything there?



I have a buddy who's in the AG's Office now (Capital Litigation) and is a real "gun guy." If he doesn't know I'm sure he can search it quicker than I could. I'll ask him...



Get him to get T. King to issue an opinion that SBRs and SBS are ok if ATF tax paid and ownership approved by ATF



Too sweet.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 5:57:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/31/2006 6:09:58 AM EDT by HardShell]
My friend confirmed what I suspected. It isn't codified anywhere or even covered by an AG opinion but, as the issuing authority for these permits, local Sheriffs are and have historically been given carte blanche on the wording, restrictions, and limitations on them. A very good argument (one of many, IMHO) for making our permit system standardized statewide (and maybe even converting us to a truly "shall issue" state while we're at it).

He said he really wished someone would challenge these assorted restrictions, but he doesn't want to be the test case (nor do I, FTR).

I don't even drink alcohol - at all, ever - so I've always thought it was silly that I can't legally carry in restaurants (not bars) where it is served...
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 7:11:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HardShell:
My friend confirmed what I suspected. It isn't codified anywhere or even covered by an AG opinion but, as the issuing authority for these permits, local Sheriffs are and have historically been given carte blanche on the wording, restrictions, and limitations on them. A very good argument (one of many, IMHO) for making our permit system standardized statewide (and maybe even converting us to a truly "shall issue" state while we're at it).

He said he really wished someone would challenge these assorted restrictions, but he doesn't want to be the test case (nor do I, FTR).

I don't even drink alcohol - at all, ever - so I've always thought it was silly that I can't legally carry in restaurants (not bars) where it is served...



I agree it needs to be more uniform. I have noticed the wording changing on most of the permits.

The Sheriffs love the permit system. The money goes directly to the Sheriff to use as he pleases. The more permits the more money.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 9:19:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/31/2006 9:55:51 AM EDT by Eight]

Originally Posted By HardShell:
He said he really wished someone would challenge these assorted restrictions, but he doesn't want to be the test case (nor do I, FTR).



Do you know how long Bill Franklin has been the sheriff in Elmore? It's been at least 8 years. Elmore county used to not have a restriction against places that served alcohol (within the last 8 years). Then the permits switched to a copy of the Montgomery permit, all on the same man's watch. I wonder why he changed it. Maybe to standardize them? Maybe he'll change it back since Montgomery removed their wording.

ETA: I have a call in to Sheriff Franklin. He's supposed to call me back after he gets out of a meeting.
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