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Posted: 1/4/2006 11:54:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2006 11:55:28 AM EDT by brillo]
Here's a good one.

I ordered 1000 rounds of Wolf 62gr .223 from Sportsmans Guide earlier this week for delivery to Annapolis, MD.

Here's SGs email reply:

From: The Sportsman's Guide [mailto:custservnotices@sportsmansguide.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 11:21 AM
To: XXX
Subject: Restricted Notice

Dear Guide Customer,

Thank you for your recent order xxxxx with us at The Guide.
Unfortunately, the following items are restricted to your billing zip code,
therefore we can not ship these items to you:

- 1000RDS .223 62GR FMJ AMMO

We have not billed your charge card for any restricted items. We are sorry
for any inconvenience this may have caused you.

If you would like to verify availability on a particular item, call our
Order Desk (1-800-882-2962) or our Customer Service Department
(1-800-888-5222) to help you.

Please reference your order number: XXXXX.

Thank you for shopping The Guide.


I responded:

From: XXX
Date: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 10:45 AM
To: custserv@sportsmansguide.com (custserv@sportsmansguide.com)
Subject: RE: Restricted Notice


I received the email, below, following an order for .223 ammunition. I'm
writing to request some further info on the restriction to delivery to my
billing zip code referred to in your email. I have purchased ammo by mail for 20 years
and online for a least the past 3 years and have never run into this restriction. If possible,
please include a citation to applicable US Code or Maryland statute.

Thanks for your assistance,

XXX


SG responded:

Dear XXX,

Thank you for the E-mail.

We have placed certain restrictions, on certain items listed in our catalog and our web site.
Due to the various state, county and municipal laws that exist, we are not always able to comply with each individual guideline. Not all of the restrictions are based on laws on the books, but could be a company decision based on certain concerns. Things such as whether the state law suits pending involving gun owners, recent court decisions that may effect businesses like ours. Finally it may be that the states laws are so vague that they could be interpreted unfavorably in the event a court action was ever involved, and finally as a public held company, we are obligated to safeguard our stockholder's investments.

I have spoke with our products department and they said that the major influence in our decision is that it is located too close the the District of Columbia. We apologize for any inconvenience that this may cause you.

If you have any other questions please contact us.


Enjoy the Outdoors,


XX XX
Customer Service


Link Posted: 1/4/2006 12:31:56 PM EDT
I live 5 min (walking) from DC/ Georgetown; my zip is 22201 (Arlington); guess I'll cross "Sportsman's NON-Friend" off my potential order list. What retards.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 12:34:26 PM EDT
That IS insane - looks like they forget who they work for.


I've written them a letter to discuss this and have linked them here:

Dear Sportsman's Guide,

One of the guys at AR15.Com posted this at the AR-15 Maryland Hometown Forum. I am a regular subscriber to you catalog and have purchased literally thousands of dollars in merchandise through your company over the past ten years, I was even a 'buyer's club member for a few years.

I state my name and address below, so that you may verify what I say, and so that you may take appropriate action.

If this is an actual e-mail exchange as he indicates, I am VERY unhappy with your arbitrary decision to legislate ammo legality and restriict delivery for no good reason, except perhaps the opinion of a new liberal you have on staff. While DC enjoys some particularly illegal, useless and silly restrictions on the RIGHT to keep and bear arms, MD is not quite so bad (yet) and the ammo you reportedly refused to ship is perfectly legal to buy and possess here in Maryland, even in Annapolis, even within ten feet of the DC line for that matter. Take a look at a map (Maryland), please note that HALF of maryland is "close to DC", not that we're the least bit proud of it. I would appreciate it very much if you would not be in such a hurry to usher in further restrictions, particularly one with such assinine basis. I honestly cannot believe you would not honor a legal ammo order as is stated below, so I ask you for myself.

If the e-mail exchange does represent your actual stance, put yourself in the same catagory as the sell-outs at Smith & Wesson, with their support of the not-yet invented 'smart gun', or with the idiots at Ruger, with their self-imposed magazine capacity restrictions. As just another self-serving company that would forget those who support it with purchases to exercise their LEGAL RIGHTS, you may remove my name from your catalog ciculation list.

Without a reasonable response from you, or immedaite withdrawal of this policy, you and I are DONE and I will spend my money elsewhere, gladly. You may cancel my subscription as is appropriate to your reply. As a range officer, active member of several sporting clubs, competitive shooter and active member of several internet discussion boards, I will do my very best to use my many contacts to enlighten my fellow sportsman to your unreasonable and ungrateful policies.

For example, see the discussion thread at AR-15.Com.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=29&t=219580

Please, feel free to log on and make a public statement . . . .

Thank you in advance for not adding my e-mail data to your e-mail circulation list.

Sincerely,
xxxx


*******­***********
The e-mail exchange in question:

quote:

Here's a good one.

I ordered 1000 rounds of Wolf 62gr .223 from Sportsmans Guide earlier this week for delivery to Annapolis, MD.

Here's SGs email reply:

From: The Sportsman's Guide [mailto:custservnotices@sportsmansguide.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 11:21 AM
To: XXX
Subject: Restricted Notice

Dear Guide Customer,

Thank you for your recent order xxxxx with us at The Guide.
Unfortunately, the following items are restricted to your billing zip code,
therefore we can not ship these items to you:

- 1000RDS .223 62GR FMJ AMMO

We have not billed your charge card for any restricted items. We are sorry
for any inconvenience this may have caused you.

If you would like to verify availability on a particular item, call our
Order Desk (1-800-882-2962) or our Customer Service Department
(1-800-888-5222) to help you.

Please reference your order number: XXXXX.

Thank you for shopping The Guide.

I responded:

From: XXX
Date: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 10:45 AM
To: custserv@sportsmansguide.com (custserv@sportsmansguide.com)
Subject: RE: Restricted Notice


I received the email, below, following an order for .223 ammunition. I'm
writing to request some further info on the restriction to delivery to my
billing zip code referred to in your email. I have purchased ammo by mail for 20 years
and online for a least the past 3 years and have never run into this restriction. If possible,
please include a citation to applicable US Code or Maryland statute.

Thanks for your assistance,

XXX

SG responded:

Dear XXX,

Thank you for the E-mail.

We have placed certain restrictions, on certain items listed in our catalog and our web site.
Due to the various state, county and municipal laws that exist, we are not always able to comply with each individual guideline. Not all of the restrictions are based on laws on the books, but could be a company decision based on certain concerns. Things such as whether the state law suits pending involving gun owners, recent court decisions that may effect businesses like ours. Finally it may be that the states laws are so vague that they could be interpreted unfavorably in the event a court action was ever involved, and finally as a public held company, we are obligated to safeguard our stockholder's investments.

I have spoke with our products department and they said that the major influence in our decision is that it is located too close the the District of Columbia. We apologize for any inconvenience that this may cause you.

If you have any other questions please contact us.


Enjoy the Outdoors,


XX XX
Customer Service

****************************
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 1:04:04 PM EDT
Well written eshell


That is pure BS!

A company that is willing to turn away customers like that doesn't need my buisness either.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 1:41:55 PM EDT
Maybe I should sent SG a photograph of the Alexandria gunstore "Potomac Arms" - their shop is on the bank of the Potomac river & the windows overlook D.C. Still, a VA shop is a VA shop & they follow Commonwealth law as they are obligated to do.

Does SG seem to think that D.C. laws have some sort of "proximity effect" - being more in force the closer you get to D.C.?? I wonder if they will ship to states that share a border with Mexico or Canada? Would not want to get too close - you know.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 1:58:06 PM EDT
Well, guess they don't need my business either, I have purchased several hundred dollars in ammo and other items but there are other sources. The hell with 'em.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 2:07:00 PM EDT
Good call on your part: look at this thread from another customer:

http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=481944

Looks like their customer service is going way down hill.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 3:21:11 PM EDT
Welp,
They just lost my business for good unless they reverse their stance, and apologize for their lack of testicular fortitude.
John F.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 8:00:56 PM EDT
Looks like I'll be spending money elsewhere. I just forwarded this link off to Henry Heymering (he sends out the Maryland pro gun stuff).
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 1:57:44 AM EDT
Damn....and I just joined their little club thing because it saved me more money on my order than it cost me to join. I guess I will have to get busy after work firing off a similar letter.

Funny how Georgia Arms has no qulams about shipping me any of their fine ammo, nor do CMP or AIM.

Link Posted: 1/5/2006 4:51:26 AM EDT
Has anybody ever ordered from ammoman.com? I have been cruising his web site for quite a while. I wonder if he has a similar restriction, probably not right?
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 7:34:41 AM EDT
"Everyone" sends ammo here except (apparently) SG, a company I 'used to' do business with, and will not continue unless we hear something favorable within a reasonable time span.

The next one that refuses gets cut out of my will, too. There are just way too many decent vendors that know the law, know the constitution and are still on the side of the consumer to deal with a bunch of high-school girls screaming "murder" like this.

Bad enough being overrun with a bunch of do-gooder soccer moms with too much time on their hands and effeminate metrosexuals, now some mail order outfit is helping out with our moral decisions, for our own safety.

One can attend the Upper Malboro gun show, situated almost exactly halfway between Annapolis and DC, and carry out handcarts of ammo. "AmmunitionStore.Com" regularly sets up a booth. Chantilly is just as close to DC and sells more ammo than Upper Marlboro . . . but all that is just silly rationalizations, this is just some arbitrary decision based on someone irrational opinion. They state in their first e-mail quoted above that not all decisions they make are grounded in law.

I did receive an automated acknowlegement to my e-mail, but nothing further yet.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 7:35:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1badf350:
Has anybody ever ordered from ammoman.com? I have been cruising his web site for quite a while. I wonder if he has a similar restriction, probably not right?



Constantly buy ammo from ammoman.com.
Highly recommended, and he gets stuff to MD FAAAAAST!.
HTH
John
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 8:45:27 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 8:52:04 AM EDT
SG is off my list.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 12:41:13 PM EDT
Kind enough to reply, and "sorry I don't like it", but no sign of sanity:



Dear xxx,

Thank you for the E-mail.

I am sorry that you don't agree with the decisions that our company has made regarding the restrictions.

If you have any other questions please contact us.

Enjoy the Outdoors,


Rebecca Reynolds

Customer Service


Visit our Website at www.sportsmansguide.com
Please retain your Customer ID Number xxxxxxx for order status and fast Express Internet Checkout.

Top sellers: http://www.sportsmansguide.com/section/section.asp?s=2283
SPG Email sign up: http://www.sportsmansguide.com/email/specials_form.asp
Buyers Club Sign-up: http://www.sportsmansguide.com/club/club_tour.asp
Customer Service Phone Number 1-800-888-5222
Customer Service Fax Number 1-651-552-5305
The Sportsman's Guide
411 Farwell Ave
So St Paul, MN 55075



I guess I'll tell her about the ass-load of ammo she's already sent out to my place, which is likely closer to DC via 295 than Annapolis via 50, and tell her that she'll have to take me off their list.
Rascals.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 2:24:15 PM EDT
Well, I stewed on it some and realized how aggravated this is and so I went and asked them to discontinue my catalog:


Thank you for your reply, Ms. Reynolds, though I must admit that I regret receiving verification that your company's management somehow finds logic in this "customer supervisory" policy.

At 49 years of age, I find it quite odd to have acquired yet another mother, what with common sense and morality already so heavily supplemented by the federal, state and local governments, keeping almost every issue completely regulated and taxed and registered, I really feel great knowing that not one little item will slip through the last few microscopic cracks, like a legal ammo shipment to an adult, law abiding citizen.

I hope that I don't need to remind you that law abiding citizens, buying legal products to exercise a constitutional right are not the problem you seem to be trying to save the world from. To refuse shipping ammo to a man in ANOTHER STATE due entirely to consideration of the idiotic and inefective DC laws is incredible to me, and everyone else I've discussed this with. And I'm not done discussing it.

He's already provided you with a copy of his ID, his credit card info, his phone number, his street address and what all other information - you actually have more info on this man, on ME, on EVERY CUSTOMER, than your employer has on YOU. What's up with that? How are our collective hemmoroids?

Considering teh above, what on earth do you honestly think he is going to do with his "blasting ammo"? I would have to say; "Not one thing he cannot do with an anonymous purchase at any of the 275+/- WalMarts, Dicks, Sports Authoritys, the BassPro and the dozen or so Mom&Pop gun shops in the area, or the current gun show, some of which are actually on the way to DC.".

I know that in my experience, it doesn't feel good to have things 'assumed' about oneself, and worse yet to have such 'implied', yet such a nice message you send to your supporters. You say: "We at Mother SG know it's not against the law, but we don't think you should have it anyway." I hear: "You are close enough to DC that you are sure to become a criminal with this ammo if we dare send it." As if refusing shipment would somehow prevent a future crime, like you are keeping a criminal's hands tied. Laughable. Perhaps, law or not, we should somehow restrict use of your female genetilia (crazy glue?stitches?) in order to prevent possible prostitution, since (in your company's eyes) capability must surely imply desire, if not outright intent? I apologise for the crass comment and partial plagerism, but it's the same thing you told that man, and yes, it IS sort of insulting, isn't it. It also follows the same line of 'logic' , effectively and clearly demonstrating the same level of credibility and rationalization as your company's policy.

I would like to enhance your geography knowlege a bit, since it's relevant to this issue:

1) Mapquest says "39 minutes" from my home (21077) to the *center* of DC. the 'edge' is much closer.
2) Same page at Mapquest says "40 minutes" to the same place, but from Annapolis (21401).

So, ironically, even though you have sent literally thousands of rounds of ammunition to my semi-rural home, along with a thousand dollars worth of other sundry junk over the last ten or so years, I could actually get to DC a ONE WHOLE MINUTE SOONER than the other law abiding Maryland resident that you have denied this perfectly legal shipment purchase to.

Seems kind of dumb, huh? Well . . . there you go.

So, you could/should deny me too now, suddenly, strangely, after all these years of me legally buying and shooting up ammo ("Blasting" as "Gary" so dramatically calls it), but you won't have to. With freight costs anymore, I usually go to the quarterly gunshow *between Annapolis & DC* (Upper Marlboro, MD; Silverado Promotions.Com) anymore to buy cases of ammo anyway - it's always been a matter of economics with cheap ammo anyway; the old 'tax-or-freight' question, but that's not really why you don't have to bother restricting my purchases now - I'll not be spending another dime with your company.

This whole thing is unacceptable to me and too bad ol' "Gary" doesn't have a look at this, I always pictured him as better than this and can't believe he'd let decisions like this stand. I spend a lot of money and I drive a lot of miles to exercise (all of) my constitutional rights and to enjoy my hobbies and they are very important to me. I see that, even though he lets on as if we have something in common, it's really just about the money, so, I'll put it those terms as well: A relatively large amount of money went your way. Done.

I would like to have my name immediately removed from your mailing list. Had I realized that your company envisioned itself as the "Sportsman's Police" or "Sportsman's Mom", I would have never bought the first item and thus encouraged this peculiar twitch you seem to have developed.

Follow the law? Sure, we all want to. Make your own? Hop back on your white horse with it's flowing mane and go somewhere else to peddle that attitude. Supporting such an attitude is totally against my nature. There are several, if not many, pulp catalog marketers out there than can satisfy your niche without feeling like they must further infringe upon the already threatened and abused rights of citizens. Guess where my junk dollars go next . . . or rather, where they don't go.

Again, thank you for your response, but I see that we will have to disagree and I would like to sever our long standing relationship at this juncture. Thank you in advance for your prompt action in removing my name from your mailing list.



This really burns me up, like my girlfriend was sleeping with the enemy. Bastards make their living on us.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 3:04:37 PM EDT
Anyone up for a group buy of Georgia Arms ammo? They do free shipping on orders over $500.00 and their stuff is outstanding. I usually schlepp over to Dulles to get some of their stuff, but from Annapolis it's a pretty long haul plus a $10.00 admission.

Just a thought......
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 3:10:48 PM EDT
I've already talked this over with the "guys" at work and it seems that they've lost an additional 6-7 customers in Maryland. Oh well, I suppose their shareholders wont mind a little less this year.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 6:36:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/5/2006 6:55:37 PM EDT by K-Romulus]
Weird - I have ordered ammo from them before and had no problem. I live north of Olney, but south of Mt. Airy.

This may be a new policy . . . . I just sent an email about my zip code's status . . .
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 2:07:44 AM EDT
I'm in Annapolis as well and just sent off an email asking whether they will ship to me.

Guess I better put together another sig line for my THR account......if enough shooters call them and cancel their catalogs maybe we'll get our point across.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 6:12:31 AM EDT
Sending to custserv@sportsmansguide.com

I wonder if my zip code 20878 is too close to DC? It wasn't for the previous 1K of .223 I bought from you. It won't matter in the future unless you rescind the ridiculous policy of not shipping ammo to zip codes "near" DC.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 9:03:58 AM EDT
Here was my e-mail I sent to them. I included the original exchange that brillo had.

By the way, anyone thought of posting this in GD to get some sort of massive e-mail wave from the arfcommers across the country?


SG,

It is my understanding you have recently refused to deliver ammunition to a Maryland resident living in Annapolis, Maryland because he was "too close to Washington D.C." The ammunition is perfectly legal and there are no restrictions sending the ammunition to this state. When asked to reply to his message with a Maryland law you said that it was not illegal, but something you were doing on your own.

If this is the case, please remove my name from all mailing lists and rest assured I will spend the hundreds of dollars I spend with you elsewhere. I will conduct no business with a company that makes and imposes it's own laws on law-abiding gun owners when you have no basis or right to do so. You were not elected, you don't get to make your own laws. Your communism is not appreciated by the residents of this state.

Your response is appreciated.

Thanks...

XXXXX

A copy of your response to this individual is included for your reference below...
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 9:10:50 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 9:55:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2006 9:58:43 AM EDT by rdblan2]
Will do BBQman. I'll drop the link here as well.

Brillo was the original poster. Brillo, if you have an issue with us putting this in GD, please let me know and I'll get the thread killed or maybe BBQman can help with that.

GD thread here: www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=425080&page=1
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 3:24:07 PM EDT
Several years ago, the Yoyo, excuse me, Yolo County, CA DA went on a suing spree.

He ordered blades he knew were illegal in CA by mail order, then tried to bring charges against the companies. Basically, "You shipped this weapon which is illegal in CA to CA and have violated CA, so we're filing charges, unless you want to pay Danegeld in the amount of half a million dollars." Items in question were lipstick knives, sword canes, daggers that didn't qualify as hunting knives (see, if it has a wooden or horn handle, it's a hunting knife. If it's got a black metal or plastic handle, it's a deadly weapon. Sound like familiar panty-shitting?)

SG ponied up for about that much.

So did The Edge.

So did Smoky Mountain Knifeworks, even though they were misidentified as "Rocky Mountain Knifeworks."

Atlanta Cutlery refused to play ball. As I understand it, Bill Adams got on the phone, demanded to speak to this scumbag, and said something to the effect of, "Everything I sell is legal in Georgia. If you knew it was illegal where you are, you're the criminal. As you seem to be in the enforcement business, no crime was committed. If you want to discuss it, file in a Georgia court and I'll have the state police ready to arrest you for extortion when you plane lands. Have a nice fucking day."

That's a paraphrase, but he apparently told them to get stuffed and didn't pay any money or wind up in court.

The pussies coughed up and now let local whiners dictate their selling policy.

The lesson here is: don't pay the Danegeld.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 4:02:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 5:54:14 PM EDT

User Info IM User Email User Reply Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyone up for a group buy of Georgia Arms ammo?




Count me in for another 500 rounds of .223 and another 500 of .45

Best stuff I've ever used.


And I've ordered from SG in the past. Emailing them next to tell them where to stick their weekly emails.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 9:03:50 PM EDT
Eff 'em. Y'all should sue them, and get class action status. The lawyers might make a little money, and lawyers are just as happy making money off of RKBA folks as the Brady Bunch. Have you notified NRA-ILA? If so, what was their response?

Submitted via their web-site customer service form just now:



I just learned of your policy discrminating against citizens of the State of Maryland, to whom you refuse to sell lawful ammunition. I do hope that Maryland citizens notify their State Attorney General of this discrimination, in the hope that State's counsel can investigate this discrimation, assess damages (including defamation), and determine if they should seek judicial or legislative redress on the part of Maryland residents.

Further I hope that the Maryland State Equal Opportunity Commission (or whatever it's called in Maryland) investigates your stance to determine if it appears to be related to the racial makeup of the affected counties. I shudder at the thought that a national corporation might not be selling ammunition to residents with Zip codes having predominately Black (or African-American) demographics.

The individual who notified me of this policy -- via an announcement on the internet forums at AR15.com -- is an Annapolitan (i.e., resident of Annapolis, MD ... the home of the U.S. Naval Academy). He lives some 30-40 minutes (via car in non-rush-hour traffic) from the border with the District of Columbia. As a resident of Arlington, Virginia you and your crack legal team need to know that my residence is located less than four minutes from the District border. I suspect that armed with this information you'll be able to include my and adjacent Zip codes in your locales targeted for discrmination. (Although our predominate minority is Hispanic, so you might want to continue to have a corporate policy to sell ammunition to Arlingtonians.)

I haven't purchased any product from y'all since early 2005. (Your records should show this as a single order for 2,000 rounds of .308 Lake City ammunition. Come to think of it, this order might be listed as two separate orders; it took a couple of attempts over a six-week period for y'all to get it right.) I have, however, reviewed each of the catalogs you've sent me to see if there was something for me to order.

Unless you advise me that the report about your Maryland ammunition policy is wrong, or you quickly adopt a policy that doesn't discriminate against the citizens of Maryland, I will never spend money at Sportsman's Guide again. If I have not learned such from y'all by 13 Jan 2006, I'll presume that you're content with the status quo. In such a case, please remove me from your mailing list. It would be wasteful to send mailers to me; they would go right into the trash. While I'd love to do just this -- hoping I'd be hurting your bottom-line even if only by a minute amount -- I was brought up not to be wasteful.

I am confident that the loss of my business will not affect the future business of Sportsman's Guide. You may be confident, however, that I will bad-mouth y'all at every opportunity until my dying days ... and that could have some impact, since these sort of things seem to snowball.

Regards,

xxxxx x xxxxxxxxxxx



I hope y'all pursue this with the State and County (leastwise PG and Charles) governments. Even if it doesn't go anywhere, a query from the State might get Sportsman's Guide's attention.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 9:15:05 PM EDT
Hey Brillo,

I suspect you're still listing SG prices here as a service to ARF members. That said, it sucks that you might be throwing business their way.

It seems, at the very least, their discriminatory policies should be prominently displayed -- as well as their dismissive attitude in response to courteous requests for a change -- all the more so, because you know the veracity of the reports of SG's stance. After all, it happened to you.

Inquiring minds want to know ...
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 9:30:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2006 9:40:23 PM EDT by brillo]
I placed another order for ammo Thursday morning and received the same response - no deliveries to my zip code. My email to SG sent Thursday evening, which they have not responded to:

Thanks for your prompt reply.

I'm responding once again to request the reconsideration of your decision to deny the sale of ammunition to me because I am a resident of Annapolis, Maryland, a location you have deemed "too close to the District of Columbia". [30 miles] I am in full compliance with your shipping guidelines for ammunition which state:

"A person placing an order for such items [ammunition] on this website warrants that he or she is an adult and is under no legal restrictions which would prohibit such person from ordering, owning, possessing, or transferring these items under applicable federal, state or local law. Further, these items cannot be sold to minors, convicted felons, those convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic abuse or those chemically dependent. For ammo and black powder orders, a person warrants that he or she is at least 21 years of age."


I've consulted the National Rifle Association of America and on their recommendation, have forwarded your communication to the NRA Institute for Legislative Action. The NRA National Headquarters in Fairfax, VA, is, at 16 miles from the District of Columbia, well within your restricted zone.

Please consider a reevaluation of this issue before it becomes a highly publicized embarrassment for Sportsmans Guide.

Respectfully,

XXX


I had hoped to receive some type of response by the end of the business day, Friday, but it appears they intend to continue this policy.


Edited to add: Re: the Ammo Price List, I try to maintain the appearance of objectivity on the ammo forum and with the price list. But you might want to stock-up on SG's Wolf .223 at $104.97/1000 less the $10 coupon. The sales manager at Wolf mentioned to me that at that price, they're selling it below cost.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 3:23:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2006 3:28:01 AM EDT by Silver78]
Has anyone posted on the VA hometown board to confirm that the guys in Northern VA are getting the same treatment? They have some counties next to DC as well. Just checked and answered my own question there is a thread there - check it out.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 4:40:01 AM EDT
I posted it on the VA board. With the exception of Larry, the response I got was the uber-intellectual "that's because MD sucks and VA doesn't"
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 5:23:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2006 5:29:15 AM EDT by fight4yourrights]

Arbitrary restrictions on ammunition shipments - you lose another customer


SG,

It is my understanding you have recently refused to deliver ammunition to a Maryland resident living in Annapolis, Maryland because he was "too close to Washington D.C." The ammunition is perfectly legal and there are no restrictions sending the ammunition to this state. When asked to reply to his message with a Maryland law you said that it was not illegal, but something you were doing on your own.

If this is the case, please remove my name from all mailing lists and rest assured I will spend the hundreds of dollars I spend with you elsewhere. I will conduct no business with a company that makes and imposes it's own laws on law-abiding gun owners when you have no basis or right to do so. You were not elected, you don't get to make your own laws. Your communism is not appreciated by the residents of this state.


BTW - you've shipped me over 10,000 rounds of ammunition to my house in Columbia, MD, which is just as close as Annapolis.

Your response is appreciated.

Thanks...

Paul Britton
ID # xxxxxx

A copy of your response to this individual is included for your reference below...
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 6:06:35 AM EDT
Customer Service

I have recently been made aware, along with thousands of others online, that you refused to ship legal ammunition to a customer in MD because the ZIP Code was "too close to DC".

That you would refuse to send a legal product to a paying customer because they happen to reside near a state whose crime rate can more than likely be attributed to its refusal to allow its citizens the right to keep and bear arms is appalling. Considering a large portion of your product line is related in some way to the shooting sports, I find that you are, in fact, no friend to the gun community.

Please remove me from your mailing list immediately. I refuse to patronize any establishment that further suppresses the rights and liberties of fellow gun owners.

Thank You
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 7:00:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2006 7:03:07 AM EDT by kingfish]
I live in Annapolis, and I've had SG send me LOTS of ammo. I havnt ordered any in a couple years so maybe this is a new thing (?). I dont think were very close at all, we have PG county as a buffer.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 7:08:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CBR900:
I live 5 min (walking) from DC/ Georgetown; my zip is 22201 (Arlington); guess I'll cross "Sportsman's NON-Friend" off my potential order list. What retards.



+1 on that. I'm in 22209 and have ordered more than a few thousand rounds of ammo. I'm easily withing spitting distance (emphasis on SPITTING) of DC, and haven't had any issues with orders from SG. Of course, Maryland has their own idiotic gun laws as well, so maybe SG's confusing the two. Maybe since we have no restrictions on shipping most anything to Viginia, they disregard us as a whole, regardless of distance from Cracksylvania...
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 9:36:06 AM EDT
A big thanks to our out of state friends who have stood with us.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 10:50:25 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 6:42:17 PM EDT
MADNESS. Sounds like a good reason to use one of the dealers from ARFCOM... [cough]ammoman[/cough]
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 7:30:43 PM EDT
E-mail sent from a VA 'wannabee'. Keep after them.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 7:42:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2006 7:43:11 PM EDT by K-Romulus]
Response received!

I asked about Brookeville 20833 (about 15 miles north of the DC line/Silver Spring), and this is what I got back:



Thank you for the E-mail.

It appears that there is no restriction for ammo on your zip code.

The restrictions do change very often these days.

If you have any other questions please contact us.
Enjoy the Outdoors,

xxxxx xxxxxx
Customer Service
Visit our Website at http://www.sportsmansguide.com



hange
FWIW, MidwayUSA wouldn't ship ammo to me because I live in Monkey County.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 7:47:32 PM EDT
Since I started this mess, I'll attempt to summarize the issue as I see it and provide a suggested resolution. I'll cross-post this on the GD board. And thanks to all for your comments.

On Tuesday, 1/3, I placed an an online order with Sportsmans Guide (SG) for 1000 rounds of Wolf .223 62gr ammo. Later that morning I received an automated response acknowledging the order. Around noon I received another message: Thank you for your recent order #xxxx with us at The Guide. Unfortunately, the following items are restricted to your billing zip code, therefore we can not ship these items to you: 1000RDS .223 62GR FMJ AMMO.

I replied, requesting further info on the restriction, to include,if possible, citation to any applicable federal or state statutes.

SG replied Wednesday, 1/4, afternoon:
Due to the various state, county and municipal laws that exist, we are not always able to comply with each individual guideline. Not all of the restrictions are based on laws on the books, but could be a company decision based on certain concerns. Things such as whether the state law suits pending involving gun owners, recent court decisions that may effect businesses like ours. Finally it may be that the states laws are so vague that they could be interpreted unfavorably in the event a court action was ever involved, and finally as a public held company, we are obligated to safeguard our stockholder's investments.

I have spoken with our products department and they said that the major influence in our decision is that it is located too close to the District of Columbia. We apologize for any inconvenience that this may cause you.


I replied Thursday evening, politely requesting a reevaluation of the issue. I haven't received a response.

In a response to ARFCOM member TallNorton requesting confirmation of the restriction to the Annapolis zip code, SG also noted: Our lawyers have made a decision to place restrictions to protect our company. There have been too many lawsuits regarding the location, and it was a company decision to protect our investors, employees and stockholders.

The problem: SG has chosen to restrict ammo sales to a location based solely on what they percieve as the proximity to the District of Columbia, a jurisdiction with very restrictive gun laws. SG does not restrict ammunition sales to the city of Baltimore, Maryland.

I think SG has simply handled the issue poorly, first by conveying a subjective policy through their front-line customer service reps, and then not escalating the issue to management, who could properly analyze the issue and then communicate a coherent policy to their customers. Failing to confront the issue has cost them the loyalty and $$ of at least a few good customers.

To SG: Send a letter something like this:

Dear Sir:

Thank you for your letter regarding our restriction on ammunition sales to the Annapolis, Maryland, area. At Sportsmans Guide we strive to provide the finest products and the best customer service available in the sporting goods business.

We base our decision on where to sell firearms and ammunition on a few factors: We have an obligation to adhere to an exhaustive number of local, state, and federal laws applicable to our products, and specifically, laws governing the sale of firearms and ammunition.

We also have an obligation to our many employees and shareholders to run a profitable business. In recent years lawsuits in a number of states, including the District of Columbia, have resulted in judgments which have bankrupted or nearly bankrupted the manufacturers and suppliers of firearms.

Frankly, it keeps many of us awake at night wondering if we'll be next. While we wish to continue supplying these products to our many customers, we've made the business decision to restrict sales to locations we believe involve a great deal of risk to our business.

Unfortunately, as you've noted, the restriction may be broader and involve locations such as Annapolis not originally intended to be included in the restriction to the District of Columbia. From our vantage of St. Paul, Minnesota, its often difficult to determine where to draw the line in areas throughout the United States, but I'm writing to let you know we are reviewing our policies to more finely map our restricted areas. We've updated our warning notice on our ammunition order page to clearly state our current restricted shipping zones.

Sincerely,
SG


What we've got here is failure to communicate. (Cool Hand Luke, Paul Newman, 1967)
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 8:32:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 8:58:36 PM EDT
We also have an obligation to our many employees and shareholders to run a profitable business. In recent years lawsuits in a number of states, including the District of Columbia, have resulted in judgments which have bankrupted or nearly bankrupted the manufacturers and suppliers of firearms.


Yep. Just ask AIM. They along with two (or was it three) other places (Dan's was one of them) got hit hard by MASSACHUSETTS with the: you evil bastards are shipping to our doorstep and other people you have no control over are bringing it into our fair cities!!!!! Give us money!!!

I hate local gov.

Link Posted: 1/8/2006 7:48:43 AM EDT


Yep. Just ask AIM. They along with two (or was it three) other places (Dan's was one of them) got hit hard by MASSACHUSETTS with the: you evil bastards are shipping to our doorstep and other people you have no control over are bringing it into our fair cities!!!!! Give us money!!!

I hate local gov.




Yes, but if you're not IN their jurisdiction, they can't even FILE a valid criminal suit. If they threaten extortion CA style, tell them to suck the big one and keep the correspondence as evidence, and file criminal charges against the prosecutor for it. If they try for a civil suit, well, that's been the preferred tactic. All you can do is file a countersuit for frivolity.

At the same time, I've often thought (even before it happened) that if everyone in the industry followed Ronnie Barrett's example, these things would get fixed fast.

"Nope. We don't sell anything in your state. No guns. No knives. No ammo. No cleaning rods. Eat shit. Go fuck yourself. Goodbye."

But there's always some fucking sellout like Bill Ruger who'll take short term money over long term market.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 7:52:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By larrycwdc:
Eff 'em. Y'all should sue them, and get class action status.



It is impossible to sue a business for not selling to you. The only way to get class action would be if they were not selling to a specific racial, ethnic or religious group, and even then it would be an uphill battle.

I've refused to sell to drunks, idiots and the occasional race-baiter, just because I didn't want any connection to them when they inevitably fucked the dog.

But there is no legal method you can use to force them to sell you ammo. Never happen. It is the right of any business to say, "I won't serve you. Thanks and goodbye."

It's also our right to tell them they're idiots and spread the word.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 10:17:45 AM EDT
Being too close to DC definitely sounds like a BS excuse. I have a tin of 7.62x39 on the way to 22201 right now and have never had problems ordering ammo from them. Could there be some county or city regulation against shipping ammo?
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 10:38:29 AM EDT
I think they should lock off my zip code. I regularly drive the 600 miles from Indy to Ft Meade, which is a federal installation, and I often go through DC on the way. If I can, anyone can.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 1:01:05 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 1:06:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2006 1:06:57 PM EDT by TallNorton]
Their response to my latest email:


Dear Tall Magnificent Bastard,
Thank you for the E-mail.

I apologize for the restrictions. I have started the process of removing your name from our computer system. Sometimes you may receive one more catalog before the cycle is completed.

I have also put in a request to cancel your Buyer's Club membership. The $29.99 membership fee, minus any savings you received, will be credited back to your card. This will post within your next two billing statements.

If you do receive more than one copy please e-mail us and we can check to insure that it was completed successfully.

If you have any other questions please contact us.

Enjoy the Outdoors,

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