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Posted: 1/30/2006 2:40:21 PM EDT
Hello,

So I called Gunstop today looking for a lower for a buddy in Duluth. Before he hangs up he tells me to make sure I bring in my permit to purchase a handgun. So I say I bought one from somewhere else a month ago and didn't need one, and he tells me we violated state law.

I don't really want to say who I got mine from yet, but before I had him order it, I had specifically asked if I needed the handgun permit and was told no...just a DL, background check, and $$$.

So do you or do you not need the HG permit to purchase a stripped lower, and if so did I break a law I may get in touble for down the road???

Thanks for the help,
Jason
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 3:12:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/30/2006 3:13:17 PM EDT by FlashDude]
Depends on where you got your last one. Did you buy your last one from a firearms dealer or from a gun show/private person?

www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/stats/624/7132.html

If you got it from a licensed dealer, you either need to apply for a handgun purchase permit from your local PD or submit to a background check and you shouldn't have been able to pick it up until either the BG was finished or 5 days after the PD gets the request.

Did you get it right away from a licensed gun dealer, without a permit, and without a waiting period? Then yes, according to the statute, the dealer is guilty of a Gross Misdemeanor. If you knew the law when you received it, then you would also be guilty. If you are a minor, then it's a felony.

ETA: Since the waiting period is the same, most people go to their local PD first and get the permit, then you get to skip the paperwork for the next year.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 3:29:44 PM EDT
Carry permit also works.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 3:31:00 PM EDT
Read the law, if you were unaware of the need for a permit you technically did not commit a crime, however convincing a DA or jury may be a different story. There is also a clause in the law to where after purchasing said firearm that you have the right to get all the paperwork and documentation back from your PD so that the government does not have a record of you purchasing a firearm.

That is at least how I read it, this is not legal advise in any way shape or form.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 3:45:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/30/2006 3:51:24 PM EDT by rn22723]
Buying guns for other people just sounds like a problem, more like who is circumventing the law? One of the questions on the 4473 deals with STRAW purchases! Straw Purchases

A straw purchase is a situation in which a buyer uses an intermediary (a "straw purchaser") through which to acquire one or more firearms from a licensed firearms dealer. The purpose is to hide the identity of the true purchaser or ultimate possessor of the firearm(s). Straw purchases and theft are common ways that prohibited people, such as convicted felons, obtain firearms.

In the United States, straw purchases are a felony violation of the Gun Control Act of 1968 for both the straw purchaser (who can also be charged with lying on the 4473) and the ultimate possessor.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 4:14:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/30/2006 4:15:42 PM EDT by JWiz]

Originally Posted By rn22723:
Buying guns for other people just sounds like a problem, more like who is circumventing the law? One of the questions on the 4473 deals with STRAW purchases! Straw Purchases

A straw purchase is a situation in which a buyer uses an intermediary (a "straw purchaser") through which to acquire one or more firearms from a licensed firearms dealer. The purpose is to hide the identity of the true purchaser or ultimate possessor of the firearm(s). Straw purchases and theft are common ways that prohibited people, such as convicted felons, obtain firearms.

In the United States, straw purchases are a felony violation of the Gun Control Act of 1968 for both the straw purchaser (who can also be charged with lying on the 4473) and the ultimate possessor.



I wasn't buying/strawing it for my buddy in Duluth, I was just calling around for him since it is long distance and he will be down on thursday. edit* he has a HG permit by the way

I assume he is licensed and has a FFA. He runs his buisness out of his home and he did the paperwork and phone in background check thing. Maybe he didn't understand the law either being as I specifically asked if I needed the HG permit and he said no.

So any suggestions on what I do now???
edit* Now I'm really worried
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 7:01:18 PM EDT
rn22723- Great video link. I loved it.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 7:02:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/30/2006 7:05:09 PM EDT by back40]

Originally Posted By JWiz:

So any suggestions on what I do now???
edit* Now I'm really worried



I wouldn't worry about it. It's not your problem. The worst that would happen to you is someone comes knocking on your door to inspect your permit. It is an interesting question though...The permit is a state issue, not a federal requirement, yet there is a blank on the federal form to put it in. So is neglecting to put in a permit a state violation or a federal one? Probably some of both I would guess.

Nothing will probably happen until when/if he gets audited. If he did a lot without permits the ATF won't be too happy. If he figures it out quick he'll probably just get written up. You might want to be nice and call him and suggest he research it a little more.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 8:49:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/30/2006 8:51:18 PM EDT by JWiz]

Originally Posted By back40:

Originally Posted By JWiz:

So any suggestions on what I do now???
edit* Now I'm really worried



I wouldn't worry about it. It's not your problem. The worst that would happen to you is someone comes knocking on your door to inspect your permit. It is an interesting question though...The permit is a state issue, not a federal requirement, yet there is a blank on the federal form to put it in. So is neglecting to put in a permit a state violation or a federal one? Probably some of both I would guess.

Nothing will probably happen until when/if he gets audited. If he did a lot without permits the ATF won't be too happy. If he figures it out quick he'll probably just get written up. You might want to be nice and call him and suggest he research it a little more.



What if I don't have one when they come and didn't have one issued when I purchased. I did have one about 4 years ago but they are only good for a year. I honestly didn't think I needed one because he said I didn't. But at the same time I know that ignorance of the law is not an excuse and I thought I had done this legally. I sent him an email tonight with the link provided and asked if we did something wrong and to get back to me. He was a really nice guy and don't want to get anyone in trouble but at the same time I don't want this hanging over my head. I just may call the chief of police (provider of a handgun permit) edit* as a last resort * and explain the mess up and ask if there is a way to fix this.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 8:55:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JWiz:
I assume he is licensed and has a FFA. He runs his buisness out of his home and he did the paperwork and phone in background check thing. Maybe he didn't understand the law either being as I specifically asked if I needed the HG permit and he said no.

So any suggestions on what I do now???
edit* Now I'm really worried



I seem to remember reading more than once that the ATF will not allow you to FFL out of your home, rather they require a seperate place of business. Maybe it's just in the Metro area's or he was grandfathered in....

You can always ask him if he did the PD check. Maybe he has a contact in the PD and they did it quickly? If he's really an FFL, he really should know

The MN law does state that you had to knowingly becomes a transferee in violation of
subdivisions 1 to 13;
. He on the other hand is paid to know this, as the FFL.

I was going to suggest that you maybe call the police department (anonymously) and ask what to do, but you seem to have beaten me to it. You don't appear to have intentionally violated the law and you appear to be rectifying it.

Good luck.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 12:22:32 AM EDT
I wouldn't worry about it.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 6:16:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JWiz:

edit* Now I'm really worried



Just call up the ATF and tell them that you did it and your name is Blaze_of_Glory
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 6:30:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JWiz:

edit* Now I'm really worried





Hide your dog

Link Posted: 1/31/2006 1:29:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dpmmn:

Originally Posted By JWiz:

edit* Now I'm really worried





Hide your dog hr


I Don't think its worth hidin' the doghe
I talked to the seller today and he said he efft up and didn't realize it, and wants me to go get my permit and bring it in to him so he can copy it. My only concern is the issue date on the HG permit is going to be 4 months after the purchase date on the paperwork he already has, maybe making matters worse.

Maybe I'm just too worked up and paranoid, I just would prefer to remain law-abiding
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 10:25:44 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 11:04:47 PM EDT
MN law,does require a permit to purchase for assault weapons.

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
I don't see why you would need a handgun permit to buy a rifle receiver but it would have to logged in as long gun, and NICS phone check done as long gun.

Link Posted: 2/12/2006 11:53:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 11:55:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/12/2006 11:55:45 PM EDT by David_Hineline]
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 3:17:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/13/2006 3:18:54 AM EDT by ar15inmn]

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
Ok did Minnesota create some text describing what an Assault Weapon is, as with the passing of the Ban there is no Federal description of a Semi Auto Assault Weapon ban anymore?



www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/stats/624/712.html

www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/stats/624/7132.html
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 6:24:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
Also since a AR receiver could easily be built into a single shot rifle, how can a receiver be classified as an Assault Weapon by the State?

www.watsonsweapons.com/50boss.htm



That's not the kind of reasoning the state uses This is from the people who brought you "cold medicine behind the counter" and "no spray paint unless you are over 18"
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 6:43:08 AM EDT
I had 2 dealers in Mankato tell me a receiver does not need a Purchase Permit as it is a part not an Assault Rifle but buying a complete gun does require the permit.

So, does buying a stripped lower receiver require a permit or not?
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:03:40 AM EDT
+1
I was also told that with a stripped lower the permit wasn't needed. To buy a rifle the permit was needed.

Anyone have anything more definitive?
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:36:02 AM EDT
I wouldn't worry about it.

It is the FFL's responsibility to run the NICS check and make sure the law is being followed, not yours. All of the times I have purchased receivers they have run the NICS check and asked for my Permit to purchase. If ONE particular FFL does not do it, however, that is their problem, IMO.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 8:13:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mcnielsen:
I wouldn't worry about it.

It is the FFL's responsibility to run the NICS check and make sure the law is being followed, not yours. All of the times I have purchased receivers they have run the NICS check and asked for my Permit to purchase. If ONE particular FFL does not do it, however, that is their problem, IMO.



+1
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 10:54:00 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 3:07:09 PM EDT
Very good points. So is there somewhere (state or federal) somewhere that says a stripped lower is actually considered a "semi-automatic military style assault rifle"- specifically referring to an AR-15 stripped lower, and stating it is in fact considered a complete rifle by law. Thats probably a really stupid question
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 4:47:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JWiz:
Very good points. So is there somewhere (state or federal) somewhere that says a stripped lower is actually considered a "semi-automatic military style assault rifle"- specifically referring to an AR-15 stripped lower, and stating it is in fact considered a complete rifle by law. Thats probably a really stupid question



Subd. 7. Semiautomatic military-style assault weapon.
"Semiautomatic military-style assault weapon" means:

(iii) Colt AR-15 semiautomatic rifle type;

(2) any firearm that is another model made by the same
manufacturer as one of the firearms listed in clause (1), and
has the same action design as one of the listed firearms, and is
a redesigned, renamed, or renumbered version of one of the
firearms listed in clause (1), or has a slight modification or
enhancement, including but not limited to a folding or
retractable stock; adjustable sight; case deflector for
left-handed shooters; shorter barrel; wooden, plastic, or metal
stock; larger clip size; different caliber; or a bayonet mount;
and

(3) any firearm that has been manufactured or sold by
another company under a licensing agreement with a manufacturer
of one of the firearms listed in clause (1) entered into after
the effective date of Laws 1993, chapter 326, to manufacture or
sell firearms that are identical or nearly identical to those
listed in clause (1), or described in clause (2), regardless of
the company of production or country of origin.

Link Posted: 2/13/2006 4:55:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JWiz:
Very good points. So is there somewhere (state or federal) somewhere that says a stripped lower is actually considered a "semi-automatic military style assault rifle"- specifically referring to an AR-15 stripped lower, and stating it is in fact considered a complete rifle by law. Thats probably a really stupid question



Most FFL’s are not attorneys so they choose to error on the safe side in my opinion.

Because the “stripped lower” can be configured to meet the Minnesota statutes for a
“Semiautomatic military-style assault weapon” most will require the permit to purchase under Minnesota law.
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