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Posted: 1/10/2006 12:14:58 PM EDT
I've had my carry permit since about three days after they passed the law; now I want my wife to get her permit. My required class was OK, but I was wondering if anyone has a strong recommendation for a class geared more towards women. Frankly, I am not particularly concerned about her ability to hit a target; she is already a fine pistol shot. However, her self-defense mindset is almost nonexistent. She is largely unaware of her surroundings, she is only sometimes concerned about her personal safety, and I believe she is overconfident in her ability to ward off an attacker physically. I bought her pepper spray; it's in the bottom of her purse, inaccessible. She has a cell phone, but the cops will only be there in time to fill out the report, after she's been mugged or raped. She works in downtown Minneapolis and parks in a public garage four blocks from her office and I think she thinks she is invisible, or invincible, or both. It is unfortunate that she is neither.

So who can recommend a class for a woman that will focus on mindset, awareness, and the legal ramifications of self defense, but also give her some trigger time?

PS We live in the Cities.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 1:14:52 PM EDT
Defensive Edge.

www.defensive-edge.net
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 1:25:53 PM EDT
+1 on Defensive Edge. I believe sully does a handgun course for women. And will qualify her for her permit to carry as well..
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 1:31:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LandSharkTBC:
+1 on Defensive Edge. I believe sully does a handgun course for women. And will qualify her for her permit to carry as well..



+2

I took a class to get a permit that cost me $150 and tought me nothing about shooting, just about the law. Took the DE class 2 years later and learned a ton.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 2:06:57 PM EDT
+3
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 5:24:14 PM EDT
Reading the description of Handgun I, DE sounds more like a shooting course. Do they teach mindset/preparedness too? Or is it strictly shooting?
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 6:14:45 PM EDT
+4 on Defensive Edge. My wife and I took the class together.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 6:46:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2006 6:47:04 PM EDT by GoBlue]

Originally Posted By Beleg:
Reading the description of Handgun I, DE sounds more like a shooting course. Do they teach mindset/preparedness too? Or is it strictly shooting?



I think I shot 350 rounds in 8 hours. The class is not all shooting, or I would have gone through a lot more. Yes, the class focuses on fundamentals and serves as a basis for other more advanced classes, but there is discussoin on tactics, mindset, and threat avoidance. I'm sure you can reach out to Sully the chief instructor for the instructors viewpoint.

In reality, it's unrealistic to become compitent in awareness in a day long course. Have her learn things like using a holster, working from concealment, dealing with malfunctions, etc.

I think there are a couple reviews someone can dig up.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 7:36:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2006 7:42:22 PM EDT by Beleg]

Originally Posted By GoBlue:

In reality, it's unrealistic to become compitent in awareness in a day long course. Have her learn things like using a holster, working from concealment, dealing with malfunctions, etc.

I think there are a couple reviews someone can dig up.



I don't think she needs work on using a holster or working from concealment or dealing with malfunctions. She knows how to shoot and handle her gun. She already shoots on a regular basis. She can clear malfunctions. She can field strip her pistol. HER pistol. She's been shooting with me for five years. What she doesn't understand is the fact that shooting and carrying a gun isn't something that is a game. I want someone who will talk about real world self-defense and get her to work on the weapon between her ears. If that gets into working order, then she can handle the shooting part of it.

So I ask again please (and I'd like some specific elaboration from a person who has taken the course, if possible) is Defensive Edge Hangun 1 a shooting tutorial? Or is it a self-defense class which discusses mindset and preparedness? Or is it both? I guess I don't feel like I have a grasp of the specific kinds of lessons they cover. Thanks for your responses!!!
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 7:51:50 PM EDT
here is a website to look at: www.twincitiescarry.com they have a ton of instructors and might be what you are looking for...
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 8:07:40 PM EDT
Here is who I took my carry class from and he also has a beginner to carry course. I would highly recommend Joel Rosenberg.

ellegon.com/
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 8:24:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Srigs:
Here is who I took my carry class from and he also has a beginner to carry course. I would highly recommend Joel Rosenberg.

ellegon.com/

yes, he is the site administrator of www.twincitiescarry.com
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 9:06:13 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 11:24:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By akajimmy:
+4 on Defensive Edge.



+5
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 3:31:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 5:03:56 AM EDT by mnandy]

Originally Posted By Beleg:
I don't think she needs work on using a holster or working from concealment or dealing with malfunctions. She knows how to shoot and handle her gun. She already shoots on a regular basis. She can clear malfunctions. She can field strip her pistol. HER pistol. She's been shooting with me for five years. What she doesn't understand is the fact that shooting and carrying a gun isn't something that is a game. I want someone who will talk about real world self-defense and get her to work on the weapon between her ears. If that gets into working order, then she can handle the shooting part of it.

So I ask again please (and I'd like some specific elaboration from a person who has taken the course, if possible) is Defensive Edge Hangun 1 a shooting tutorial? Or is it a self-defense class which discusses mindset and preparedness? Or is it both? I guess I don't feel like I have a grasp of the specific kinds of lessons they cover. Thanks for your responses!!!



I'm not trying to start a fight or arguement, but before I got my first hours of formal training, I thought I "knew how to shoot". I could sit at the range and shoot the bullseye at 21 feet all day long. I could get my weapon from the holster to eye level, and I could get an empty mag out, and a new one in in what I thought was a reasonable fashion. I was way off. The first thing I learned was that I didn't know anything. My range time was nothing more than flinging lead, and not usefull in the real world. It is important to have a proper draw. Proper grip is important. Wth the grip Sully teaches, I now see little to no muzzle flip. My sights appear almost to not move when I shoot. Trigger control and trigger reset. Like someone else said, where do you sit in the restaurant? How do you set up when you fill you car with gas? Do you have a plan to deal with a threat in your home, your car? Are you being observant of the people around you? How many times has someone "appeared out of no where"? Do you pay attention to people coming and going while waiting in line at the bank? Mindset, preparedness, awareness, shooting skills, tools for a lower threat level (read - chemical irritant, impact weapons, ect), and many other things are all important. I believe Sully covers most if not all of these types of things in his class. IMHO any instructor that doesn't is short changing you. I have no idea what your overall skill level is, or that of your wife, but the biggest thing I learned, is that I have a lot to learn!!!


*edit to clarify
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 3:42:30 AM EDT
I guess I will go against the grain a little. I went to St. Paul CSI. Glenn is a great instructor and really makes people feel at ease. His training meets the NRA requirements, MN requirements, WI potential requirements and many more. You wont blast through 350 rounds but you will get personal attention and all your questions answered.

StPaulCSI at yahoo.com (he is on the NRA website under all the different pistol trainings)
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 4:45:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 10:10:33 AM EDT by rn22723]
Defensive Edge is the best option IMHO! Sully laid out a very accurate condensed version of the course syllabus .But, that is not say that others have comparable abilities, save for the ones that want to spend all the time in the "classroom", and I use that term lightly! Spending time at Perkins is not effective! Sure you do not need Navy Seal Skill sets, but I assure you there is more to learning to employ lethal force then listening to some slick and pompus salesman. So many of the lessor known instructors advocate things that not with the program. I would look at Bills Gun Shop and the training provided by Len and his crew as a worthy alternate. John Farnum is coming to town in a few weeks, Tactics Presents John Farnum
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 5:14:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 6:14:38 AM EDT by QuinlanV]

Originally Posted By Diesel73:
His training meets the NRA requirements, MN requirements, WI potential requirements and many more. You wont blast through 350 rounds but you will get personal attention and all your questions answered.



Options are good, thanks for posting.
I did feel that it should be pointed out, Defensive Edge Handgun 1 far exceeds all these requirements as well, and has offered the class since long before shall issue. Also, your post implies that a Defensive Edge does not offer personal attention. Nothing could be farther from the truth. You will get the personal attention and have all your questions answered as well as fire around 300 rounds including a 50 round qualification.


Originally Posted By Beleg:
I don't think she needs work on using a holster or working from concealment or dealing with malfunctions. She knows how to shoot and handle her gun. She already shoots on a regular basis. She can clear malfunctions. She can field strip her pistol. HER pistol. She's been shooting with me for five years. What she doesn't understand is the fact that shooting and carrying a gun isn't something that is a game. I want someone who will talk about real world self-defense and get her to work on the weapon between her ears. If that gets into working order, then she can handle the shooting part of it.



Handgun 1 covers all the issues you mention as well as shooting, and on top of that helps you learn to incorporate mindset and awareness into your shooting.
I have seen a great variety of students at Handgun 1. Some are new to shooting, some competition shooters, military and LE, security and EP professionals, and many that have already attended some of the other well-known schools. None have ever been disappointed in the training or instruction, regardless of experience and skill level. Hope this helps.

Link Posted: 1/11/2006 7:05:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rn22723:
Defensive Edge is the best option IMHO! Sully laid out a very accurate condensed version of the course syllabus .But, that is not say that others have comparable abilities, save for the ones that want to spend all the time in the "classroom", and I use that term lightly! Spending time are Perkins is not effective! Sure you do not need Navy Seal Skill sets, but I assure you there is more to learning to employ lethal force then listening to some slick and pompus salesman. So many of the lessor known instructors advocate things that not with the program. I would look at Bills Gun Shop and the training provided by Len and his crew as a worthy alternate. John Farnum is coming to town in a few weeks, Tactics Presents John Farnum



+1 on this post.

You can't go wrong with either Sully or Len. Perhaps a quick call to either or both of them to talk about a 1 on 1 session or your specific training needs may be worthwhile.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 10:05:09 AM EDT
Thanks for all the input, guys. You've given me (and my wife) some stuff to ponder and decisions to make. Thanks for the detailed description of the DE class, Sully! Now we've got to get out the calendar and make some decisions!
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 11:26:05 AM EDT
Beleg,

Last spring, summer, and fall I took Revolver I, a two-day carbine class, and handgun I from Defensive Edge. The instruction was fantastic! I knew I needed training, but I didn't realize HOW MUCH training I need. I'm trying to find time in a law-student schedule to get in some good trigger time this semester to try and reinforce and practice the things I learned in the class.

I can say from experience that Sully and his other instructors do a fantastic job running the class. I learned a very great deal from them all, and I am looking forward to taking more classes and continuing to build my skills. They deal with all skill levels, and I am sure you and your wife will learn from them, even if you are already very experienced. There's no macho BS from them. They are professional, polite, and informative. The other students were also very nice in all three of the classes that I took. You would do very well taking your wife (and yourself) to any of their courses.

I plan on repeating several of their classes this year. I am sure I will continue to learn a great deal, even taking the same class again.

Hope that helps!

- Cursarius



Link Posted: 1/11/2006 5:53:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By QuinlanV:


Options are good, thanks for posting.
I did feel that it should be pointed out, Defensive Edge Handgun 1 far exceeds all these requirements as well, and has offered the class since long before shall issue. Also, your post implies that a Defensive Edge does not offer personal attention. Nothing could be farther from the truth. You will get the personal attention and have all your questions answered as well as fire around 300 rounds including a 50 round qualification.




Didnt mean to imply anything negative about any traininers, just relaying my experience with a different trainer. I have never used Defensive Edge and am in no way qualified to make statements or assumptions about their offerings. Sorry if it came across that way.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 5:56:55 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 6:23:35 PM EDT
There is really no such thing as overtraining as far as I'm concerned.

If you train once per month (and by training I mean with an instructor, not throwing some lead downrange on your own) I'd say you're getting sufficient training.

If you're getting less than that, *I* (and this is my opinion) think you're shortchanging yourself.

But in the end, it is all up to you and your wife to decide how much training you want to do.

I think you'll find that once you do a couple classes, you quickly find out that no matter how much training you do, you will continue to learn things that will prepare you in case you ever need to deploy lethal force. And even if you find yourself training only to reinforce previous training, this is a very valuable thing. Unless you regularly refresh, you will lose your training.

Stay up to date. But everything in steps.

Step 1: realize you need training
Step 2: decide how much training you want

etc....
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 9:44:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Diesel73:

Didnt mean to imply anything negative about any traininers, just relaying my experience with a different trainer. I have never used Defensive Edge and am in no way qualified to make statements or assumptions about their offerings. Sorry if it came across that way.



No worries After reading the post I thought it might be worth clarifying a little. No need to apologize for anything.
Glad you posted. It is nice to hear first hand accounts of others training experiences. I'm always looking for new stuff to learn and places to learn it
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 9:56:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Beleg:
Thanks for all the input, guys. You've given me (and my wife) some stuff to ponder and decisions to make. Thanks for the detailed description of the DE class, Sully! Now we've got to get out the calendar and make some decisions!



Something else to consider is that Handgun 1 qualifies you for the Alumni Handgun classes. They are short, inexpensive classes that focus on specific skills. Things like movement shooting, 360 degree engagements, one-handed shooting and manipulations (both weak and strong side), etc. Occasionally a “Gunfighting for Couples” class is offered if there is enough interest. In this class you and your significant other could learn and practice fighting as a team (I hope to take this class with my wife). The spring and summer schedule will be full of great stuff.
Just some other things to think about
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 5:35:26 PM EDT


Beleg, if you and your wife "train once per month " the instructors in the area will love you, especially at $150-$200 a class, but I doubt that any of them would recommend it. Getting her into a class that prepares her mindset and continuing to practice skills at the range is the the way to go.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 6:56:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mnblaster:

Beleg, if you and your wife "train once per month " the instructors in the area will love you, especially at $150-$200 a class, but I doubt that any of them would recommend it. Getting her into a class that prepares her mindset and continuing to practice skills at the range is the the way to go.



Where did you train to learn this?
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 7:35:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mnblaster:

Beleg, if you and your wife "train once per month " the instructors in the area will love you, especially at $150-$200 a class, but I doubt that any of them would recommend it. Getting her into a class that prepares her mindset and continuing to practice skills at the range is the the way to go.



Well, I train once a month (if not more) with a professional trainer, and I certainly don't pay $150/class. If classes did cost that much, I certainly couldn't afford to be doing it that often.

Practicing skills at a range on your own is good, but you also need to do it with a professional trainer on a regular basis to ensure you aren't training yourself into bad habbits, or incorrect/out dated methods.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 8:42:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FedGunner:

Originally Posted By mnblaster:

Beleg, if you and your wife "train once per month " the instructors in the area will love you, especially at $150-$200 a class, but I doubt that any of them would recommend it. Getting her into a class that prepares her mindset and continuing to practice skills at the range is the the way to go.



Where did you train to learn this?




I guess I don't understand your question. The original post was asking for a class top get his wife into the mindset he feels she needs, what does that have to do with my or anyone elses training?

We are all painfully aware of where you do your training. I don't brag about my military service or any training I have done and certainly don't feel the need to bring it up at every opportunity. People have different opinions on how much and how valuable "training" is. What one person may view as "training" another may view as a total waste of time and money.

This is what MN requires, anything above and beyond this is optional to you. The majority of the permits on the street were issued to people with this amount of training. The poster was asking for a class that offered something that would aapeal to his wife and make her more aware of her surroundings and how to be more street smart.

-Completed Application

-An accurate photocopy of a certificate, affidavit, or other document that is submitted as the applicant's evidence of training in the safe use of a pistol.

-An accurate photocopy of the applicant's current driver's license, state identification card, or the photo page of the applicant's passport.

-In addition to the other application materials, a person who is otherwise ineligible for a permit due to a criminal conviction but who has obtained a pardon or expungement setting aside the conviction, sealing the conviction, or otherwise restoring applicable rights, must submit a copy of the relevant order.

-Applications must be submitted in person.

Link Posted: 1/13/2006 6:42:38 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 8:03:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/13/2006 8:05:25 AM EDT by QuinlanV]

Originally Posted By mnblaster:

Beleg, if you and your wife "train once per month " the instructors in the area will love you, especially at $150-$200 a class, but I doubt that any of them would recommend it. Getting her into a class that prepares her mindset and continuing to practice skills at the range is the the way to go.



Attending professional training as often as once a month is probably not feasible for everyone. That is one of the great things about Defensive Edge, a ton of info is provided and drills are learned to help apply that info. Then a student can practice it on their own when opportunities arise. I have heard a student tell one of the instructors at DETC that he learned more in a 2 day Defensive Edge class than he learned in a week long Front Site class he took a couple weeks prior. When people lay down their $ for a class I think they should be getting as much info as they can absorb, and not use the time for tons of repetitions and practice. It’s left up to the student to take care of that when it is practical for them.
Also, once you have taken a level 1 class, you are able to continue training in the half day Alumni Classes in that discipline for $35. These classes are offered to encourage additional practice and work on specific skill sets. Not to hard to justify attending once a month considering what typical range fees are.
As to whether an instructor would recommend seeking training that often or not. If they are a real, professional instructor they will. All the good instructors make the time to continue their own training, and lay down their own $ to attend classes offered by other professionals. There are always new things to be learned, and any worthwhile instructor never stops being a student.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 9:21:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mnblaster:

Originally Posted By FedGunner:

Originally Posted By mnblaster:

Beleg, if you and your wife "train once per month " the instructors in the area will love you, especially at $150-$200 a class, but I doubt that any of them would recommend it. Getting her into a class that prepares her mindset and continuing to practice skills at the range is the the way to go.



Where did you train to learn this?
hr



I guess I don't understand your question. The original post was asking for a class top get his wife into the mindset he feels she needs, what does that have to do with my or anyone elses training?

We are all painfully aware of where you do your training. I don't brag about my military service or any training I have done and certainly don't feel the need to bring it up at every opportunity. People have different opinions on how much and how valuable "training" is. What one person may view as "training" another may view as a total waste of time and money.

This is what MN requires, anything above and beyond this is optional to you. The majority of the permits on the street were issued to people with this amount of training. The poster was asking for a class that offered something that would aapeal to his wife and make her more aware of her surroundings and how to be more street smart.

-Completed Application

-An accurate photocopy of a certificate, affidavit, or other document that is submitted as the applicant's evidence of training in the safe use of a pistol.

-An accurate photocopy of the applicant's current driver's license, state identification card, or the photo page of the applicant's passport.

-In addition to the other application materials, a person who is otherwise ineligible for a permit due to a criminal conviction but who has obtained a pardon or expungement setting aside the conviction, sealing the conviction, or otherwise restoring applicable rights, must submit a copy of the relevant order.

-Applications must be submitted in person.




I try to keep my mouth shut. I have a question or two for you though.
Let's do this in small pieces so your meanings don't get lost ok?

1) FG asking you about the basis of your opinion. Seemed pretty clear to me. or at least I got it.

2) In your second paragraph you put training in quotation marks as if to imply it means something else. you also use the words "painfully", "brag" and "waste". Your paragraph there makes it sound like you have some sort of agenda.

3) In your next paragraph you quote Minnesota law. Are you saying that everyone should simply do the minimum requirements?

All I can get from what you are saying is that you don't like FG, you don't like training, you don't like anyone talking about their military experience, and you advocate the minimalist approach to firearms knowledge.

Maybe I didn't get your point.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 3:10:15 PM EDT
+1 on looking at twincitiescarry.com.I and several of my friends are permit to carry instructors and that is the best resource I know to find an instructor in Mn.
Train as much as you can,as soon as you can.Good training will teach you how to practice.Most permit to carry classes teach you the legal stuff,not much shooting,just basically verifying that you are reasonably accurate and safe.
A good start on midset is to read Ayoob,Cooper,and the likes.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 8:11:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/14/2006 8:15:31 PM EDT by SgainAchlaidh]
I can't afford the money... but bill's appears to be cheaper in the short run, Defensive Edge gets the nod on currancy and long term economy.

by currency I mean that they are the most current. It sounded like I was talking about money.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 8:28:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Diesel73:
I guess I will go against the grain a little. I went to St. Paul CSI. Glenn is a great instructor and really makes people feel at ease. His training meets the NRA requirements, MN requirements, WI potential requirements and many more. You wont blast through 350 rounds but you will get personal attention and all your questions answered.

StPaulCSI at yahoo.com (he is on the NRA website under all the different pistol trainings)



There is no grain.

If you feel you got what you needed. You win!
Your training got you thinking and practicing.
That is enough.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 9:34:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/15/2006 5:52:00 AM EDT by rn22723]
The options in the cities for training are abundant, but one has to an informed consumer. We have two organizations that seem to be leaders in the area of lethal force training. We have way too many Johnny Come Lately's. The investment of time to get quality instruction should be applauded. DE has a great venue of continued honing of skills via Alumni courses at reduced cost and the offerings are realy relevant with gunfighting around vehicles, loved ones, and other offerings. Tactics has their Tactical Tuesday and from a conversation with Len today sounds like that programi will expand to Fridays in the future. Tactics is hosting some big names in the industry with John Farnum coming in two weeks, and Chuck Taylor coming in the near future!

Just cause a person was ordained an instructor does not mean that they or their organization is going to provide quality instruction. We seem to have some people that want to push their salesmanship over hands on practical training. Last time I checked shooting is a psychomotor skill! To get gain a good foundation that requires more then 50 rounds!
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 6:32:11 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 1:20:26 PM EDT
Have to jump in on this one for just a minute.

There seems to be a situation where some people think the only good training to be had in Minnesota is put on either by Defensive Edge (I have been in on some of Sully's classes) or at Tactics. Heaven forbid anyone should mention Final Option ( haven't been in one of these classes so I can't pass judgement). Also, the only good training is training that involves at least 300 rounds of shooting to instill "psychomotor skill".

There is a lot to be said for a class that goes further into Civil and Criminal Law, mental awareness, de-escalation and escalation, deterrence, avoidance, or the old "don't go to stupid places, and do stupid things, with stupid people" theory.

Which student is better prepared to face a deadly force situation? The student that takes an eight hour class where one or two hours is spent on the above topics of discussion and the rest of the class is spent shooting several hundred rounds of ammunition in an attempt to instill phychomotor skills. Or the student that spends four hours in the classroom going over safety in the home, poper carry methods, legalities of permit to carry, and then going through different scenarios and talking about the civil and criminal ramifications that may come in the aftermath of a deadly force situation. STRESSING THE FACT THAT NO DEADLY FORCE SITUATION IS A GOOD SITUATION AND THE ONLY GOOD DEADLY FORCE SITUATION IS ONE THAT NEVER TAKES PLACE. Then spending four hours on the range firing 100 - 150 rounds of ammo. going over the basics of safety, accuracy, and weapons handling skills.

At the end of my classes I always allow students that want to spend the time, to experience some advanced shooting techniques, giving them a taste of what further training can accomplish. I then give them options as to where they can look to get this training.

I don't appreciate the term "Johny Come Lately" used to describe a class that you have never attended. 27 yrs. of LEO experience as firearms instructor, defensive tactics instructor, SWAT team etc.. gives me a basis for teaching this type of class. 300 + students thus far will hopefully pull me out of the "johny come lately" catagory. Not a lot of people I grant you. I do not do this for a living. I do this because I am a firm believer in the right to carry. All of my students thus far have been great people and I have loved teaching this to them.

If what I have said here hurts feelings, or causes anger, I am sorry. That was not my intention. I just want people to know that there are a LOT of quality instructors out there. The best place to look is on the BCA web site or look at www.twincitiescarry.com/forum. Just keep in mind that each instructor has a different idea of what should be emphasized in this class. They will all meet the states minimum requirements.

Good luck in your search for the ideal class.

Link Posted: 1/15/2006 2:55:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Payne:
Have to jump in on this one for just a minute.

There seems to be a situation where some people think the only good training to be had in Minnesota is put on either by Defensive Edge (I have been in on some of Sully's classes) or at Tactics.



DE has been in the area the longest and therefore it is only natural that they have the largest following. I took my first DE course in the summer of 2001. DE is also the only one in Minnesota who actively participates in the AR15.com community, so again, it's only natural....

The Minnesota Forum here seems to be the largest gathering of Minnesota firearms enthusiasts that I have come across. It would seem to be a mistake for other companies to not be participating.



Heaven forbid anyone should mention Final Option ( haven't been in one of these classes so I can't pass judgement).



To tell you the truth, I only heard about FO when it was first mentioned in another thread a couple months ago. It's not anyone else's fault that they aren't promoting themselves and making themselves better known. I've seen DE booths at just about every MWCA show over the last 4-5 years. Tactics has only just started appearing at shows, and I don't recall ever seeing a FO or TWC booth.

Pretty hard to take a course from a company you've never heard about. Don't blame anyone else for those company's lack of public relations abilities.



There is a lot to be said for a class that goes further into Civil and Criminal Law, mental awareness, de-escalation and escalation, deterrence, avoidance, or the old "don't go to stupid places, and do stupid things, with stupid people" theory.



Isn't all that pretty much common sense? I was born with a pretty good amount of it. I realize some people weren't, but I don't think it's a trainable trait.



Which student is better prepared to face a deadly force situation? The student that takes an eight hour class where one or two hours is spent on the above topics of discussion and the rest of the class is spent shooting several hundred rounds of ammunition in an attempt to instill phychomotor skills. Or the student that spends four hours in the classroom going over safety in the home, poper carry methods, legalities of permit to carry, and then going through different scenarios and talking about the civil and criminal ramifications that may come in the aftermath of a deadly force situation.



Well, I did take a carry class with a TWC affiliated instructor. I got to sit in nice conference room at a local bar and hear some nice entertaining stories for about 6 hours. Then got to blast 50 rounds into some paper for the qualification test.

Now I'm not a firearms professional, but I don't think there's any instructor who can take a student and make them physically and mentally prepared for a self defense situation in a matter of 8 hours. Which is the point that many people have tried to get across. You need to train, and you need to do it on a regular basis. These skills do stagnate, and they stagnate quickly.

Obviously training as frequently as some of the hardcores on here do isn't possible for everyone, but once every 5 years somehow doesn't seem sufficient either.



27 yrs. of LEO experience as firearms instructor, defensive tactics instructor, SWAT team etc.. gives me a basis for teaching this type of class.



Really? Who are you? What company do you instruct for? It's considered proper NEtiquette to disclose your affiliations when you are commenting on(especially promoting, which you have done in your post) something you have a financial interest in, or are affiliated with. Perhaps you have done it in the past, but you should do it with every post where you make statements similiar to the ones you did in your post.


Link Posted: 1/15/2006 3:37:56 PM EDT
Fair enough.

Brian E. Payne. Sgt. with Princeton Police Department. 27 years LEO vetran. Operate Concealed Defense. I have been doing permit to carry classes ever since the law was passed. My students normally come from family members of Law Enforcement Officers I have trained over the years.

I do not advertise very much, I go by word of mouth mainly. I was not trying to promote myself or my business on the previous thread. If I were, I would have put down dates, times, and costs of upcoming classes. I apologize if I left that impression.

You are correct in stating that there is no way an insructor can prepare a student for a deadly force situation in eight hours. But - an instructor can go a long way towards giving the student the tools needed to set themselves up to be in a situation to prevail. And I am not talking about a draw from concealement. Has more to do with a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterence and de-escalation. I think an equal split between lecture, scenario based training, and range time makes for a good class. But that is just me. Sorry your permit to carry class didn't fill your needs.

As for not promoting classes on AR15.com. I have read enough threads to know the response that would come of it. Just like now. Take the time to read some of the posts and tell me there isn't just a little bit of negative feelings toward any class not affiliated DE or Tactics. Besides the fact I really don't want to do a lot of classes. My personal time, at this time in my career, is very important to me and my wife. I also spend a lot of my spare time training and shooting competition.

Again, I have nothing against DE or Tactics. I have been a student of many classes over the years, including two with Sully. I applaud them for the good job they have done and are still doing.
Just saying there are other options out there if people care to look. And not all are "Johny Come Lately". Not meaning to pick on anyone, just that Johny Come Lately phrase used in a previous thread just seems to sum up the general feeling about other classes when they are mentioned here.

Ford is way better than Chevy. 1911's are better than Glocks. (these are used as examples only). I think you get the idea.

Payne
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 4:18:58 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 5:29:15 PM EDT
Payne, You are wrong. Chevys are better than Fords.
You are right when you state that 1911s are better than Glocks
::tounge planted firmly in cheek::

To Beleg,

Sorry for the thread-jack!

To VA Gunnut,
You have a point on the training. I'd have to add that one of the reasons that Sully and Len get so many return students is because the training provided is one heck of a lot of fun as well as instructive.
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 8:48:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Payne:

I do not advertise very much, I go by word of mouth mainly. I was not trying to promote myself or my business on the previous thread. If I were, I would have put down dates, times, and costs of upcoming classes. I apologize if I left that impression.



Perhaps promote was too strong of a word, but when you encourage others to seek out alternative training, and you're one of the alternatives, some disclosure is appropriate.



You are correct in stating that there is no way an insructor can prepare a student for a deadly force situation in eight hours. But - an instructor can go a long way towards giving the student the tools needed to set themselves up to be in a situation to prevail. And I am not talking about a draw from concealement. Has more to do with a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterence and de-escalation. I think an equal split between lecture, scenario based training, and range time makes for a good class. But that is just me. Sorry your permit to carry class didn't fill your needs.



Lecture material is something I can get by surfing the web. I don't need to pay someone $150.00 to suggest putting an additional lock on my bedroom door, installing motion activated lights, and that parking ramps are dangerous places.

However, having an instructor show you the physical aspects of defensive shooting is something not easily learned from reading, and can only be learned by doing.



As for not promoting classes on AR15.com. I have read enough threads to know the response that would come of it. Just like now. Take the time to read some of the posts and tell me there isn't just a little bit of negative feelings toward any class not affiliated DE or Tactics.



Negative feelings? No...I would view it as obviously hard core enthusiasm, and tough criticism of other offerings....This is people's time, money, and...lives we're talking about here. The guys here are the technology equivalent of the hardcore gamers who sleep outside a BestBuy so they can be the first one to own an Xbox 360. 2nd best just isn't good enough.

How many of the TWC instructors are qualified to teach(and have teached):
Shooting from inside a vehicle?
Exiting a vehicle and using it for cover?
How to remove a loved one from the line of fire and retreat?

Do any of the TWC instructors even teach malfunction drills?

As FedGunner already stated, not only is this stuff educational, it's downright fun!



And not all are "Johny Come Lately". Not meaning to pick on anyone, just that Johny Come Lately phrase used in a previous thread just seems to sum up the general feeling about other classes when they are mentioned here.



I don't recall the JCL comment, however I'm sure it refers to the training companies that suddenly sprang up after the law was passed to grab cash from the initial stampede of people wanting permits. The hurdle to become a certified trainer is pretty low. I won't even get in to the fact that the initial authors of the law specifically wrote in their own certification company into the law. If that doesn't make them look bad, I don't know what would.

Link Posted: 1/15/2006 10:57:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2006 2:02:46 PM EDT by VA-gunnut]
Back40

You must carry a Glock!

Relax ( he says with the smooth low tones he learned to use in de-escalation classes). We are all friends and fellow shooters here. You keep them things bunched up like that, you will never get'em back out again.

All I ask is for everyone to keep an open mind when it comes to training. Maybe even get training from other instructors now and then. You might not know what you've been missing.

Just a note also - go to any IDPA or USPSA shoot and you will see lots of people shooting from inside vehicles, using vehicles for cover, retreating while using accurate fire for cover, shooting on the move, even shooting from moving vehicles. If you try 3-gun you can do all of the above with handgun, shotgun, and rifle. Great fun, not a replacement for good training I grant you, but good shooting experience none the less.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 4:06:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2006 8:30:30 AM EDT by VA-gunnut]
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 4:13:00 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 5:28:57 AM EDT
VA-gunut

The Glock statement was made in jest. I own two of them and think they are one of the better weapons systems out there. I was going to put one of those colorful smiley faces behind the statement but have no clue how to get them on there.

I also appreciate back40's enthusiasm for the training aspect of our lives. I love having students like that in classes, makes the instructors jobs much easier.

Sorry to have sounded unprofessional.

This thread has taken a left turn and I apologize for that also. Back to the shadows I go.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 7:32:22 AM EDT
I'm just trying to figure out how a thread from a guy who asks a simple question about some training for his wife turns into a debate about gunfighting from vehicles and so on. Did I miss something about her joining the SWAT team?

Link Posted: 1/16/2006 7:56:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Cataclysm:
Did I miss something about her joining the SWAT team?



They are running her BG Check as we speak...
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 2:06:39 PM EDT
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