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Posted: 12/19/2005 11:53:34 AM EDT
Anyone ever done any training at Bill's (esp. the one in Circle Pines)? I got their brochure yesterday and was thinking of doing the defensive handgun course.

What other options are there in the area for defensive handgun and rifle? I know there are a few, but I'm not up to speed on what they are...
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 12:04:39 PM EDT
www.TheDefensiveEdge.com



The best available IMO
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 12:11:38 PM EDT
www.finaloption.org in St. Cloud
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 12:12:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2005 12:14:58 PM EDT by keystone170]
www.twincitiescarry.com also has some instructors that do defensive handgun classes and also CC permit classes.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 4:22:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By death451:
www.TheDefensiveEdge.com
The best available IMO



+1
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 4:30:52 PM EDT
We can't tell you what happens at Bills. It's a secret :)

BTW, is this week steel? Just need to know if I need to bring frangible.

Link Posted: 12/19/2005 9:47:50 PM EDT
Defensive Edge
A very well respected, nationally known training company and an ar15.com industry partner to boot
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 10:55:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DrSIG226:

Originally Posted By death451:
www.TheDefensiveEdge.com
The best available IMO



+1




+2
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 5:36:29 AM EDT
I think steel is next week. Bill's has a good training program---len does a great job. Tactical Tues is fun and very useful. DH101 is good as well. I am looking forward to taking the shotgun and personal protection class. Len is doing a good job at attracting national instructors as well--Ayoob, Farnam(end of Jan) and Chuck Taylor (april). That being said I am really looking forward to taking some classes with defensive edge--sully gets rave reviews from just about everybody.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 5:53:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By biga_mn:
I think steel is next week. Bill's has a good training program---len does a great job. Tactical Tues is fun and very useful. DH101 is good as well. I am looking forward to taking the shotgun and personal protection class. Len is doing a good job at attracting national instructors as well--Ayoob, Farnam(end of Jan) and Chuck Taylor (april). That being said I am really looking forward to taking some classes with defensive edge--sully gets rave reviews from just about everybody.



+1.

reluctant to give too rave of reviews, as it is getting pretty crowded every Tues. Night.

I'm bringing Frang. tonight cause I'm not sure what night steel is...

Tonight's the x-mas celebration. I guess that means I'm on the mic!
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 6:24:14 AM EDT
Save a spot on the line for me, guys. I'm stuck at work until 1630.

Len's shotgun course was a good time, and I've taken the PPHD too. Waiting for the Tactical Rifle class to come 'round again so I can finally learn to use my ARs.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 6:29:43 AM EDT
After one DH101 course, I can say Len is an excellent instructor, and the curriculum is good.

The down side? Too crowded, and not enough trigger time.

I've since practiced at both BGSN and BPR, but it's not quite the same as being out on the floor.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:25:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 7:26:01 AM EDT by death451]

Originally Posted By keystone170:
www.finaloption.org in St. Cloud




Jim have you ever been to any training classes?

Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:27:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MNnaloxone:
Save a spot on the line for me, guys. I'm stuck at work until 1630.

Len's shotgun course was a good time, and I've taken the PPHD too. Waiting for the Tactical Rifle class to come 'round again so I can finally learn to use my ARs.



We'll be there waiting for you!
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 8:13:20 AM EDT
you'll have to bring some goodies if you want us to save a place for you
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 8:50:13 AM EDT
How about some docusate???
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 9:45:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 9:46:22 AM EDT by rn22723]
Who is bunged up?

Originally Posted By MNnaloxone:
How about some docusate???



Or did you spike the Xmas cookies with it?
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 1:12:00 PM EDT
Note to self...Dont eat the cookies...
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 9:18:17 AM EDT
ahhhh Crap.....I ate the cookies.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 12:25:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TwistedMonkey:
ahhhh Crap.....I ate the cookies.



Key operative term, here...
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 1:02:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/21/2005 6:35:04 PM EDT by keystone170]

Originally Posted By death451:

Originally Posted By keystone170:
www.finaloption.org in St. Cloud




Jim have you ever been to any training classes?


no, managed to stay alive all these years without it. But, who can tell might head up to St. Cloud one of these days and check it out. And really don't know what that has to do with the original posting, he was looking for other options and I named a couple.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 9:29:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By keystone170:

Originally Posted By death451:

Originally Posted By keystone170:
www.finaloption.org in St. Cloud




Jim have you ever been to any training classes?


no, managed to stay alive all these years without it. But, who can tell might head up to St. Cloud one of these days and check it out. And really don't know what that has to do with the original posting, he was looking for other options and I named a couple.



66yrs is a long time to stay alive that does not mean you know anything about the original subject on training, since you haven't taken any formal classes

The point is everyone here recomends things based on actual experiance with the places they recomend.... except you.
So at the end of the day it is like me recomending a place to eat without ever eating there myself.

I can't take much stock in someone always talking about stuff they don't actually do.
How would you know what the company is like to deal with or if they are any good.

People recomend Bills because they have been there we recomend D.E. because we have been there. If some one that has been to F.O. recomends it that would be good because they would have been there and know what they are talking about

Well James IF you JamesII and JamesIII go to a class you let me know so I can attend with you guys. Maybe we could carpool.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 10:27:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By death451:
So at the end of the day it is like me recomending a place to eat without ever eating there myself.





So true!!!
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 11:42:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 2:31:49 PM EDT by rn22723]
Death hit the nail square on the head! Aside from some DPMS staff, there have been very few people reporting their opinions about FO. And, if a person were to look around TWC.com they seem to worship the idea that classroom is more important. To each his own, but I know from where I speak when I say practice perfections ensures game performance! You can read and listen all you want! But, when push comes to shove, I want hands on training! We have people with good pedigrees locally who do not seem to snub the civilians, Sully and Len!

There are those that worry about XYZ bullet being the super best! Well, it does not mean squat if the rounds are not on target! I have seen 45 drop one guy deader then a door nail and the same bullet out of the same platform do nothing more then pass through and through! SHOT PLACEMENT, my fellow shooters, is all that counts. Granted there is certain restrictions people place on personal safety. But, I honestly believe those that do take advantage of hands on training have no business offering up their proverbial 2 cents!

So, the naysayer does really just serve any purpose without hands one experience. Man this all gets old! Of course all are entitled to their opinion, just as I have mine! But, the stuff that is advocated by the disciples of some of the local "talent" is just plain useless!
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 12:39:11 PM EDT
I can also vouch for Len as a trainer (at Bills). I have been taking his classes for a few months now, and I must say he's top notch.

I've had personal instruction from a couple other gentlemen who are certified NRA instructors that were also excellent that I gauge Len's instruction on. His teaching style is unique in the fact that he makes you comfortable and you feel like you're having fun, and at the end of the class you look back and go "damn I learned a lot of stuff today, and I didn't even realize it!"

As for final option, I've conversed a couple times via e-mail with Tony about some of his classes and other things, and he seems like a real standup guy. There was supposed to be an advanced CCW class this November that unfortunately fell through that I would have taken had it been available. They seem to cater to military and police, but they let you know that right up front.

As to the original question about Bills, yes they have an excellent training program, and just from what I've seen they're actively working to improve upon it in every way by expanding their course schedule and bringing in national talent for 2,3, and 4 day courses. Any training course you take from them will not dissapoint you.

Not an employee, just a satisfied customer.



Link Posted: 12/22/2005 1:40:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Delobius:
Anyone ever done any training at Bill's (esp. the one in Circle Pines)? I got their brochure yesterday and was thinking of doing the defensive handgun course.

What other options are there in the area for defensive handgun and rifle? I know there are a few, but I'm not up to speed on what they are...

fellas, read the second paragraph...
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 2:34:23 PM EDT
Taking the identified second paragraph at face value, it meant to have real hands on experienced responses. We can collectively provide only DE and BGS information!

Originally Posted By keystone170:

Originally Posted By Delobius:
Anyone ever done any training at Bill's (esp. the one in Circle Pines)? I got their brochure yesterday and was thinking of doing the defensive handgun course.

What other options are there in the area for defensive handgun and rifle? I know there are a few, but I'm not up to speed on what they are...

fellas, read the second paragraph...

Link Posted: 12/22/2005 8:04:42 PM EDT
I have trained with both Sully and Len and can vouch for both of them. You can not go wrong training at either place, but in true ARFCOM fashion (as back40 put it on the other thread)

GET BOTH!!!

Good training is no substitute for any other factor, IMO. As I have not trained anywhere else, I am not qualified to tell you about any other class, but I will say that both DE and Tactics/Bills have similar qualities and pluses that you should not miss out on. You cannot go wrong with either of them, but you definitely will be better off taking as many different classes as you can!


Arabou
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 5:24:20 AM EDT
Oh yeah, and XYZ bullets ARE the best, but only in the 172 grain version (with the cadmium-plated casing).
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 5:38:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MNnaloxone:
Oh yeah, and XYZ bullets ARE the best, but only in the 172 grain version (with the cadmium-plated casing).



Issued to Space shuttle door gunners only...
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 6:03:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By keystone170:

Originally Posted By Delobius:
Anyone ever done any training at Bill's (esp. the one in Circle Pines)? I got their brochure yesterday and was thinking of doing the defensive handgun course.

What other options are there in the area for defensive handgun and rifle? I know there are a few, but I'm not up to speed on what they are...

fellas, read the second paragraph...



James,

What these people are telling you is this, How can you recommend a training program that you have never attened??????

You have Zero first hand expierience at the recommendation that you are giving.
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 6:56:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/24/2005 9:50:23 PM EDT by keystone170]

Originally Posted By dpmmn:

Originally Posted By keystone170:

Originally Posted By Delobius:
Anyone ever done any training at Bill's (esp. the one in Circle Pines)? I got their brochure yesterday and was thinking of doing the defensive handgun course.

What other options are there in the area for defensive handgun and rifle? I know there are a few, but I'm not up to speed on what they are...

fellas, read the second paragraph...



James,

What these people are telling you is this, How can you recommend a training program that you have never attened?????? ve Zero first hand expierience at the recommendation that you are giving.

actually all I did was to post different websites so he could look for himself and make up his own mind. After all, he did ask for different options to places that had defensive handgun or rifle courses. He didn't ask for experiences just different options in Minnesota.
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 7:20:23 AM EDT
That's how I read the original post.
"Guys, I'd like a review of Bill's." "Can I get a list of other training opportunities?"
(List follows, along with some cheap stool softener jokes)

Jeez, everyone settle down. We don't need another DE vs. Bills vs Yo Momma vs None of the Above argument, followed by some Site Staff from VA kicking in doors.

For the record, as long as it involves hearing protection and loud bangs, I'm a fan.

Link Posted: 12/23/2005 10:39:19 AM EDT
It was not Bills VS DE at all I don't think.
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 10:40:38 AM EDT
It was not Bills VS DE at all I don't think.

Two different things can not compare apples and oranges.
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 5:14:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MNnaloxone:
Oh yeah, and XYZ bullets ARE the best, but only in the 172 grain version (with the cadmium-plated casing).



Oh hell no!
Those are produced by wolf and packaged under a different name.
(tounge planted firmly in cheek.)
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 6:07:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MNnaloxone:
That's how I read the original post.
"Guys, I'd like a review of Bill's." "Can I get a list of other training opportunities?"
(List follows, along with some cheap stool softener jokes)

Jeez, everyone settle down. We don't need another DE vs. Bills vs Yo Momma vs None of the Above argument, followed by some Site Staff from VA kicking in doors.

For the record, as long as it involves hearing protection and loud bangs, I'm a fan.




Ok.

I've kept my mouth shut, up till now.

Actually the correct comparison (if you are actually headed that way,) would be DE vs FO.....(the original pointer)
That isn't where the strife lies tho.

You have been a member long enough to know the stuff that has gone on between jem375 and the folks that look to DE.
To be clear. I'm an Instructor for Defensive Edge.
Our students and staff are very protective, and take slights, real or imagined very seriously. I hope that people have noticed that mcnielsen has caught no flack for hitching his wagon to the folks at Bill's.
He is one of the few people I trust behind my back with a hot firearm.

This is about a member that seeks to drag down any interest that a particular three other members have.
The skin has gotten very thin at this point.

I would really like to see all this stuff go away.
jem375's account was locked out.
As long as troll accounts are allowed, it probably won't end.
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 8:53:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/23/2005 9:20:40 PM EDT by keystone170]

Originally Posted By FedGunner:

Originally Posted By MNnaloxone:
That's how I read the original post.
"Guys, I'd like a review of Bill's." "Can I get a list of other training opportunities?"
(List follows, along with some cheap stool softener jokes)

Jeez, everyone settle down. We don't need another DE vs. Bills vs Yo Momma vs None of the Above argument, followed by some Site Staff from VA kicking in doors.

For the record, as long as it involves hearing protection and loud bangs, I'm a fan.




Ok.

I've kept my mouth shut, up till now.

Actually the correct comparison (if you are actually headed that way,) would be DE vs FO.....(the original pointer)
That isn't where the strife lies tho.

You have been a member long enough to know the stuff that has gone on between jem375 and the folks that look to DE.
To be clear. I'm an Instructor for Defensive Edge.
Our students and staff are very protective, and take slights, real or imagined very seriously. I hope that people have noticed that mcnielsen has caught no flack for hitching his wagon to the folks at Bill's.
He is one of the few people I trust behind my back with a hot firearm.

This is about a member that seeks to drag down any interest that a particular three other members have.
The skin has gotten very thin at this point.

I would really like to see all this stuff go away.
jem375's account was locked out.
As long as troll accounts are allowed, it probably won't end.

well fedgunner, you're wrong as usual. my account was locked out for a month a short time ago and staff thought it better that I let that ID go and use the one I am using now. You can always go complain to va-gunnut since he is the one along with other staff that authorized it.. I see absolutely nothing wrong with my posts on this thread and where did I mention anything about DE??
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 8:25:43 AM EDT
So much to remember....now I have to find who manufactures the XYZ bullet (wow, space shuttle bullets...now that's outta this world) and remember not to eat the cookies which I now find were spiked.


OH yea......Get off your 1* and get some HANDS ON TRAINING.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 6:09:59 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 9:16:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:

Originally Posted By MNnaloxone:
Jeez, everyone settle down. We don't need another DE vs. Bills vs Yo Momma vs None of the Above argument, followed by some Site Staff from VA kicking in doors.





To late for that now...

I knew I should of looked around when I was posting in the other thread. hinking.gif

Well, since someone in the RF put me into an account locking mood, there will be some that wake up with a present from me in the morning. hr


Cause he say so!
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 4:45:56 AM EDT
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