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Posted: 12/14/2003 6:45:23 PM EDT
As some of you know, I'm 17 years old and am looking forward to turning 18. There are many reasons for this, but mainly because I will be old enough to buy a rifle.


Now, I already have (keep in mind that although I paid for them, they are in my dads name and all that other good stuff) two AR's and an AK47 (as well as a few other but those are not the subject of this topic). When I purchased the AK47 (post ban) at a gun shop in the cities, the gun store owner told my dad he needed a permit to purchase to buy it. So, he got one and he bought it. Later that year I bought a Post Ban AR15 from a local gun shop and the gun shop owner told my dad he DIDN'T need a permit to purchase to buy it. Then, as an x-mass present to myself I came across a Pre-Ban AR at a different gun shop and when my dad went to buy this one, he DID need a permit to purchase.


What's the story with all this?


Since you need to be 21 to apply for a permit to purchase, and if you do need to have one to buy AR's, I would be SOL on my 18th Birthday.



Can anyone straighten this out?
Link Posted: 12/14/2003 7:47:02 PM EDT
I've had different dealers tell me different things. One dealer told me that with ARs it's because it's possible to build a pistol with the right parts, and others tell me because "it's an assault rifle..."

Truth is, I don't know, and I'm not so sure many dealers even know the truth either. I think they do it as a C.Y.A. measure (To cover their asses)... Who knows for sure? I don't.

The ones around the metro area wouldn't sell me an AR without one though.
Link Posted: 12/15/2003 6:27:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2003 6:27:53 AM EDT by dpmmn]
You shouldn't need a permit to buy a "POST BAN AR" They are considered "Target Rifles" They do not have the "Evil Features" of an Assult Rifle

Link Posted: 12/15/2003 9:08:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2003 9:16:02 AM EDT by rn22723]
The real deal:



Please note, Minnesota statutes sometimes use the word "pistol" when referring generally to handguns. Minn. Stat. § 624.712, subd. 2. To avoid confusion, we have simply used the word "handgun" in these cases.

Minn. Stat. § 624.713, subd. 1(a) prohibits the possession of semi-automatic military style assault weapons by persons who are under 18 years of age. Such persons may carry or possess a semi-automatic military style assault weapon only:

In the presence or under the supervision of a parent or guardian;

While participating in a military drill for a legally recognized and competently supervised military organization;

For instruction, competition or target practice on a police-approved firing range; or

Upon successful completion of a course designed to teach marksmanship and safety with a handgun or semiautomatic military style assault weapon and approved by the commissioner of natural resources.

A person charged with a crime punishable by more than one year imprisonment may not receive, ship, or transport a semiautomatic military style assault weapon. Section 624.713, subd. 1a.

With certain limited exceptions, if a person wishes to acquire an assault weapon from a federally licensed firearms dealer, but does not have a transferee permit or a permit to carry, the dealer must file a report with the police chief or sheriff. Section 624.7132, subd. 1. The dealer may not transfer the firearm unless five business days have elapsed since the report was delivered to law enforcement and the police chief or sheriff has not notified the dealer that the person is ineligible to possess firearms. Section 624.7132, subd. 4.

Pursuant to section 624.7141, a person commits a gross misdemeanor who intentionally transfers a semiautomatic military style assault weapon to a person s/he knows:

Has been denied a permit to carry a weapon because s/he is not eligible under section 624.713 to possess an assault weapon;

Has been found ineligible to possess an assault weapon by law enforcement as a result of an application for a transferee permit or transfer report;

Is ineligible to possess an assault weapon under section 624.713.

An offense under this section is a felony if within one year the transferee uses the weapon in furtherance of a felony crime of violence.


There does not seem to be a distinction between pre and post ban assualt weapons

More about age to acquire:
Minn. Stat. § 624.713, subd. 1(a) prohibits the possession of handguns or semi-automatic military style assault weapons by persons who are under 18 years of age. Such persons may carry or possess a semi-automatic military style assault weapon or handgun:

In the presence or under the supervision of a parent or guardian;

While participating in a military drill for a legally recognized and competently supervised military organization;

For instruction, competition or target practice on a police-approved firing range; or

Upon successful completion of a course designed to teach marksmanship and safety with a handgun or semiautomatic military-style assault weapon and approved by the commissioner of natural resources.

In addition, section 97B.021, subd. 1, provides that:

(a) Except as provided in this subdivision, a person under the age of 16 may not possess a firearm, unless accompanied by a parent or guardian.

(b) A person under age 16 may possess a firearm without being accompanied by a parent or guardian:

(1) on land owned by, or occupied as the principal residence of, the person or the person's parent or guardian;

(2) while participating in an organized target shooting program with adult supervision;

(3) while the person is participating in a firearms safety program or traveling to and from class; or

(4) if the person is age 14 or 15 and has a firearms safety certificate.

Link Posted: 12/15/2003 10:29:17 AM EDT

Upon successful completion of a course designed to teach marksmanship and safety with a handgun or semiautomatic military-style assault weapon and approved by the commissioner of natural resources.



So I can own, purchase, and posses a "semiautomatic, military style firearm" if I take a handgun saftey course?
Link Posted: 12/15/2003 5:43:16 PM EDT
the skinny on all of this is how you decide the law. most dealer require a pistol permit wich you can optain at 18. I do not and so doesnt dpms. keep us infored on your procces
Link Posted: 12/15/2003 6:58:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2003 7:01:51 PM EDT by Wipeout]

Originally Posted By dsspro:
the skinny on all of this is how you decide the law. most dealer require a pistol permit wich you can optain at 18. I do not and so doesnt dpms. keep us infored on your procces




I can get a pistol permit at 18? or did you mean to type cant?


Thanks for the info, Where is your gun shop?



Edited to add: Sorry if some of my questions seem repetitive, this issue is just really confusing to me. I want to try and get everything all straightened out ASAP so when I do turn 18, there will be no surprises when I go to make a purchase
Link Posted: 12/15/2003 8:00:51 PM EDT


I can get a pistol permit at 18? or did you mean to type cant?

Thanks for the info, Where is your gun shop?

Edited to add: Sorry if some of my questions seem repetitive, this issue is just really confusing to me. I want to try and get everything all straightened out ASAP so when I do turn 18, there will be no surprises when I go to make a purchase



Ok, here it is plain and simple.

If you purchase a rifle from an FFL dealer (Gander Mountain, Sportsman Warehouse, FAC, or most any store that sells guns out their front doors), you need a pistol and AW purchase permit and be 18.

For the permit, you go down to your local police department and file the paperwork. It takes about 7-10 days and you get your card in the mail. I believe it is still only $10.

Having a CCW permit is the same thing, but, it is a permit to carry as well as purchase. The classes cost ~$125+ammo. But it is a $100 registration fee and typically takes 30 days to get it in the mail.

Prior to handing over any firearm, dealers must check your social security number against the BATF database to see if you belong to a liberal organization, at which point, if you do, thay will most likely shoot you were you stand. In some cases, you will be permitted a 5 second head stard.

[Gunstop Reload doesn't wait, they shoot on site. Seriously, I have seen them do it more than once. Poor bastard never had a chance. But, he was wearing a "Wellstone!" hat and had on an NPR shirt]

If you purchase a firearm from an individual, you don't have to do sh*t as far as permits or registration. As long as you are 16, you can legally own a firearm in this state.

Beware of gunshows. They are junkshows, for the most part. Unless you see a DEALER/MANUFACTURER there, you get LESS than what you pay for.

[Ammo and reloading supplies are a different issue]

I bought my DPMS AR-15 (flat-top, no forward assist) from a local FFL dealer for $880 complete. I have never looked back.

-Warlock
Link Posted: 12/15/2003 10:47:55 PM EDT



If you purchase a firearm from an individual, you don't have to do sh*t as far as permits or registration. As long as you are 16, you can legally own a firearm in this state.


-Warlock



*take this as you wish, but it is a felony to transfer to a person under 18. i think you may be confused with "possession" rather than "ownership," (ie, in this instance, transfer means to purchase, or transferring ownership).

624.7132 Report of transfer
Subd. 15. Penalties.

(b) A person who does either of the following is guilty of a felony:

(1) transfers a pistol or semiautomatic military-style assault weapon to a person under the age of 18 in violation of subdivisions 1 to 13; or

(2) transfers a pistol or semiautomatic military-style assault weapon to a person under the age of 18 who has made a false statement in order to become a transferee, if the transferor knows or has reason to know the transferee has made the false statement.
Link Posted: 12/15/2003 11:44:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By b910:



If you purchase a firearm from an individual, you don't have to do sh*t as far as permits or registration. As long as you are 16, you can legally own a firearm in this state.


-Warlock



*take this as you wish, but it is a felony to transfer to a person under 18. i think you may be confused with "possession" rather than "ownership," (ie, in this instance, transfer means to purchase, or transferring ownership).

624.7132 Report of transfer
Subd. 15. Penalties.

(b) A person who does either of the following is guilty of a felony:

(1) transfers a pistol or semiautomatic military-style assault weapon to a person under the age of 18 in violation of subdivisions 1 to 13; or

(2) transfers a pistol or semiautomatic military-style assault weapon to a person under the age of 18 who has made a false statement in order to become a transferee, if the transferor knows or has reason to know the transferee has made the false statement.




The semiautomatic military-style assault weapon, you are talking about has been "Banned" since September 13th, 1994.
They are Target Rifles, nothing more, Nothing less.
If he wanted to have a semiautomatic military-style assault weapon, He would have to be a Law Enforcement Officer.
Like I said, All the new models are Target Rifles, not "semiautomatic military-style assault weapons"
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 2:40:51 AM EDT
This is the actual State of MN definition of the subject at hand -
Subd. 7. Semiautomatic military-style assault weapon.
"Semiautomatic military-style assault weapon" means:

(1) any of the following firearms:

(i) Avtomat Kalashnikov (AK-47) semiautomatic rifle type;

(ii) Beretta AR-70 and BM-59 semiautomatic rifle types;

(iii) Colt AR-15 semiautomatic rifle type;

(iv) Daewoo Max-1 and Max-2 semiautomatic rifle types;

(v) Famas MAS semiautomatic rifle type;

(vi) Fabrique Nationale FN-LAR and FN-FNC semiautomatic
rifle types;

(vii) Galil semiautomatic rifle type;

(viii) Heckler &> Koch HK-91, HK-93, and HK-94 semiautomatic
rifle types;

(ix) Ingram MAC-10 and MAC-11 semiautomatic pistol and
carbine types;

(x) Intratec TEC-9 semiautomatic pistol type;

(xi) Sigarms SIG 550SP and SIG 551SP semiautomatic rifle
types;

(xii) SKS with detachable magazine semiautomatic rifle
type;

(xiii) Steyr AUG semiautomatic rifle type;

(xiv) Street Sweeper and Striker-12 revolving-cylinder
shotgun types;

(xv) USAS-12 semiautomatic shotgun type;

(xvi) Uzi semiautomatic pistol and carbine types; or

(xvii) Valmet M76 and M78 semiautomatic rifle types;

(2) any firearm that is another model made by the same
manufacturer as one of the firearms listed in clause (1), and
has the same action design as one of the listed firearms, and is
a redesigned, renamed, or renumbered version of one of the
firearms listed in clause (1), or has a slight modification or
enhancement, including but not limited to a folding or
retractable stock; adjustable sight; case deflector for
left-handed shooters; shorter barrel; wooden, plastic, or metal
stock; larger clip size; different caliber; or a bayonet mount;
and

(3) any firearm that has been manufactured or sold by
another company under a licensing agreement with a manufacturer
of one of the firearms listed in clause (1) entered into after
the effective date of Laws 1993, chapter 326, to manufacture or
sell firearms that are identical or nearly identical to those
listed in clause (1), or described in clause (2), regardless of
the company of production or country of origin.

The weapons listed in clause (1), except those listed in
items (iii), (ix), (x), (xiv), and (xv), are the weapons the
importation of which was barred by the Bureau of Alcohol,
Tobacco, and Firearms of the United States Department of the
Treasury in July 1989.

Except as otherwise specifically provided in paragraph (d),
a firearm is not a "semiautomatic military-style assault weapon"
if it is generally recognized as particularly suitable for or
readily adaptable to sporting purposes under United States Code,
title 18, section 925, paragraph (d)(3), or any regulations
adopted pursuant to that law.

Subd. 8. Included weapons. By August 1, 1993, and
annually thereafter, the superintendent of the Bureau of
Criminal Apprehension shall publish a current authoritative list
of the firearms included within the definition of "semiautomatic
military-style assault weapon" under this section. Dealers,
purchasers, and other persons may rely on the list in complying
with this chapter.
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 2:46:47 AM EDT
And here is the AUTHORATATIVE BCA LISTING:
BUREAU OF CRIMINAL APPREHENSION
LIST OF FIREARMS INCLUDED WITHIN THE DEFINITION OF "SEMIAUTOMATIC MILITARY-STYLE ASSAULT WEAPON"
AUGUST 1, 2001

Pursuant to Minnesota Statutes 624.712, Subdivision 8, the following is the BCA's current authoritative list of the firearms included within the definition of "semiautomatic military-style assault weapon".

A firearm is considered to be a semiautomatic military-style assault weapon if it is:

Any of the firearms, or copies or duplicates of the firearms, in any caliber, known as:



Norinco, Mitchell and Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikovs (all models),

Beretta AR-70 (SC 70)

Colt AR-15

FabriqueNationale FN-FAL, FN-LAR and FN-FNC,

Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil,

Intratec TEC-9, TEC-DC9

SWD M-10, M-11, M-11/9 and M-12,

Steyr AUG and

Revolving-cylinder shotguns such as or similar to Street Sweeper and Striker -12.



A semi-automatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of the following:

Folding or telescoping stock,

Pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon,

Bayonet mount,

Flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor,

Grenade launcher.



A semi-automatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of the following:

Ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol side of the pistol grip,

Threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extended, flash suppressor, forward handgrip or silencer,

Shroud that is attached to or partially or completely encircles the barrel and permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the non-trigger hand without being burned,

Manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded,

Semi-automatic version of an automatic firearm.



A semi automatic shotgun that has at least two of the following:

Folding or telescoping stock,

Pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon,

Fixed magazine capacity in excess of five rounds,

Ability to accept a detachable magazine.
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 2:52:04 AM EDT
The BCA listing is sort of ambiguous in general reading. But, it seems that first section lisitng AR-15's is pretty much the answer as it "Any of the firearms, or copies or duplicates of the firearms, in any caliber, known as:


And there is nothing to suggest "target rifle designation" is an exemption.
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 5:11:43 AM EDT
Alright, thanks for helping me guys. SO as I understand it thus far, it is basically a dealers decision weather or not they sell a SAW to someone without a permit to purchase, some of them do it to Cover their own butt, and others don't need for you to have one. If it is a private purchase, as long as I am 18, I don't need a permit to purchase.

However If I want to get a permit to purchase, I can and must fill out the forms and pay the 10 bucks.

Is all that right?



Can I fill out a permit to purchase form while I am 17 and then have it mailled to me on my 18th Birthday so I would have to wait 5-10 days after my b-day?



Thanks again all!
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 9:14:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2003 9:17:16 PM EDT by dpmmn]
Pistol Buying Permits a free.

On the AR issue, I think the way they get around it is That companies like DPMS, Armalite, Bushmaster
do this,
Remember AR-15, AR 15 belongs to the Colt Companies
Armalite calls it the M15
DPMS calls it the A15
Bushmaster calls it the XM15
see where I am going?

Law makers Generalized the Name AR 15 when the name it self it a copyrighted by Colt.

There is room for arguement here
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 7:29:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Wipeout:
Alright, thanks for helping me guys. SO as I understand it thus far, it is basically a dealers decision weather or not they sell a SAW to someone without a permit to purchase, some of them do it to Cover their own butt, and others don't need for you to have one. If it is a private purchase, as long as I am 18, I don't need a permit to purchase.

However If I want to get a permit to purchase, I can and must fill out the forms and pay the 10 bucks.

Is all that right?



Can I fill out a permit to purchase form while I am 17 and then have it mailled to me on my 18th Birthday so I would have to wait 5-10 days after my b-day?



Thanks again all!



As folks have previously stated, a pistol or SAW have a requirement for the owner to be 18. (I was thinking of hunting rifles and lever actions...those you can be 16)

In order to apply for the permit, you must be 18. No other way around it.

And that is that.

-Warlock
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 10:31:12 AM EDT
Wipeout, the answer is yes. You need a permit to purchase. I have never bought a pistol-grip semi-auto rifle without being asked for my purchase permit. And I have bought a few. None of which are pre-bans. Receivers included.

AR15 yes
AK variants yes
SKS no
shotgun no
bolt rifle no
handgun yes
FAL yes
G3 yes


Link Posted: 12/17/2003 10:39:28 AM EDT
Ok. Thanks everyone.
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 1:42:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dpmmn:
On the AR issue, I think the way they get around it is That companies like DPMS, Armalite, Bushmaster
do this,
Remember AR-15, AR 15 belongs to the Colt Companies
Armalite calls it the M15
DPMS calls it the A15
Bushmaster calls it the XM15
see where I am going?

Law makers Generalized the Name AR 15 when the name it self it a copyrighted by Colt.

There is room for arguement here



i beg to differ about the room. the definition clearly states "any variants of the listed models," and the colt ar15 was used for example probably due to its popularity and/or brand recognition. while i understand where you are heading with your comment, i think you are arguing semantics here.
in either case, a person still needs to be 18 to purchase a rifle, be it the "evil black rifle" or a "harmless" Ruger M77 in .270, the difference is that a permit is required for the former rather than the latter. however, possession is different as stated by the quoted statutes regarding hunting (97B chapter) and 624.713, describing the activities in which a minor can possess any of the above firearms.
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 4:58:59 PM EDT
Thank everyone fopr the repplies.

I stumbled across a PDF copy ofd the permit to purchase application and It cleared just about everythign up. I was under the impression that I had to be 21 to apply for a permit to purchase, and no I know that this is not true. That was what my main confusion was about.


Now, I have one last question. at the end of the application, under the "Restrictions" Part, it says "Must be at least 18 years old to acquire or possess a handgun or semiautomatic military-style assault weapon. But under federal law must me at least 21 years old to acquire handguns from licensed dealers."

Does this mean as long as I have a permit to purchase, I can buy pistols from private parties at the age of 18?



Again, thank you all.
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 5:16:28 PM EDT
Hey... here's a idea. If you see a weapon you want at a dealer you want to buy it from, give the dealer the documents they want ( be it a permit to purchase, CCW, drivers licence, ect...), fill out the forms and pay them and walk away with your purchase. I think if the FFL thinks it's legal and wants to sell it, they will sell it. I have not many FFL's that will "negotiate" their paperwork requirements with buyers.
Sleepy717

BTW-I have had to provide a permit to purchase on a Bushy but not a DPMS (from different dealers). The city where I live does not charge for the permit to purchase.
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 5:20:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sleepy717:
Hey... here's a idea. If you see a weapon you want at a dealer you want to buy it from, give the dealer the documents they want ( be it a permit to purchase, CCW, drivers licence, ect...), fill out the forms and pay them and walk away with your purchase. I think if the FFL thinks it's legal and wants to sell it, they will sell it. I have not many FFL's that will "negotiate" their paperwork requirements with buyers.
Sleepy717




I was not suggesting trying to "negotiate" my way out of having to fill out forms or getting around not having a permit to purchase. I was trying to figure out what I really did need as there was some confusion over the fact that I have had two dealers that required them for SAW purchases, and one that did not require it.
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 6:32:12 PM EDT
Wipeout... I can see your point (with the age thing). I was just being a wise ass. I keep renewing my permit to purchase mainly because of situations like this (different requirements from different dealers). But, as you can see, it seems that the saying is true... everyone has both an opinion and a.....yea. I wish I could be more help, but I guess I just rely on dealers I know and trust to know the requirements. I pretty much shoparound, then I go to the Gun Stop and make my purchase.
Sleepy717
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 6:59:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sleepy717:
Wipeout... I can see your point (with the age thing). I was just being a wise ass. I keep renewing my permit to purchase mainly because of situations like this (different requirements from different dealers). But, as you can see, it seems that the saying is true... everyone has both an opinion and a.....yea. I wish I could be more help, but I guess I just rely on dealers I know and trust to know the requirements. I pretty much shoparound, then I go to the Gun Stop and make my purchase.
Sleepy717



No harm, no foul


Group Hug


Anyway, thanks to you guys I'm pretty sure I got all this stuff figured out.

This is why I ask questions here
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 7:08:28 PM EDT
If you have to get a permit to purchase from the St. Paul police, good luck. I tried when I was 18, and they said I had to be 21, since they issue a combined pistol/Semi assault weapon purchase permit. They refused to issue it. Since I had a transplant shortly after, it became a back burner issue for me, and since then I have been broke, so also not an issue, and since I will be 21 on Sun, the problem will go away. If you have to get the permit in St. Paul/Murderopolis, I wish you luck. I just hope your parents are more supportive than mine were.
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 7:56:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By KL2001:
If you have to get a permit to purchase from the St. Paul police, good luck. I tried when I was 18, and they said I had to be 21, since they issue a combined pistol/Semi assault weapon purchase permit. They refused to issue it. Since I had a transplant shortly after, it became a back burner issue for me, and since then I have been broke, so also not an issue, and since I will be 21 on Sun, the problem will go away. If you have to get the permit in St. Paul/Murderopolis, I wish you luck. I just hope your parents are more supportive than mine were.




Luckily I do not have to try and get one in the cities. However, I do have to try and get mine approved in Rochester, so that might be just as hard.

BTW: Congrats on turnining 21. Happy early Birthday.
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