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Posted: 3/23/2006 12:14:05 PM EDT
I need a gunsmith in the OKC area to install ghost ring sights on my Mossy 500. H&H says they don't install front sights. OA wants $100.00 and I already have the sights.

Any ideas?
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 6:32:27 AM EDT
do they have to be sweated on or screwed on?

call big boys in wheatland, they do some smith work, their in the book.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 6:42:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mikeyinokc:
I need a gunsmith in the OKC area to install ghost ring sights on my Mossy 500. H&H says they don't install front sights. OA wants $100.00 and I already have the sights.

Any ideas?

Your standards are not high if you're insistent upon an OKC-area gunsmith.

Simmons Gun Repair is as close as the Post Office. www.simmonsguns.com
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 5:04:21 PM EDT
Honestly, I'd have to agree with Lester on this one. I'm always willing to travel a resonable distance from Tulsa (Joplin, OKC, within 200 miles anyway) for someone to do good quality work on my stuff. Or at least, for the work I can't do myself. Lester's got a good point though and that statement makes a lot of sense really.

You want the best mechanic you can find for your cars, and the best gunsmith you can find for your guns.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 5:20:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mikeyinokc:
I need a gunsmith in the OKC area to install ghost ring sights on my Mossy 500. H&H says they don't install front sights. OA wants $100.00 and I already have the sights.

Any ideas?


Yeah, Steve Baldwin. He does custom chokes on shotguns from all over the world - England, France, etc. He's that good.
He remchoked a slug barrel for me for a CLEET class. And he's cut several barrels back and installed new beads for me. He's one of the nicest guys you'll ever come across in the firearms industry. And he is one hell of a machinist!
I'll IM his phone number.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 6:10:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By danc46:
Yeah, Steve Baldwin. He does custom chokes on shotguns from all over the world - England, France, etc. He's that good.

Good enough, but not good. The person referenced has very little following outside of a few locals. Hence the reason Briley, Carlson's, Choke Works, etc. exist.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 6:50:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lester_Long:

Originally Posted By danc46:
Yeah, Steve Baldwin. He does custom chokes on shotguns from all over the world - England, France, etc. He's that good.

Good enough, but not good. The person referenced has very little following outside of a few locals. Hence the reason Briley, Carlson's, Choke Works, etc. exist.


Excuse me, but I highly recommend him! If you haven't had him do work, or seen $30,000 Holland & Holland shotguns in his shop, or met the guy, then you don't know what you are talking about. He makes high dollar parts for David Tubbs among others, as well as some other well known names in Brownells.
He is DAMN GOOD!
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 7:11:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By danc46:

Originally Posted By Lester_Long:

Originally Posted By danc46:
Yeah, Steve Baldwin. He does custom chokes on shotguns from all over the world - England, France, etc. He's that good.

Good enough, but not good. The person referenced has very little following outside of a few locals. Hence the reason Briley, Carlson's, Choke Works, etc. exist.


Excuse me, but I highly recommend him! If you haven't had him do work, or seen $30,000 Holland & Holland shotguns in his shop, or met the guy, then you don't know what you are talking about. He makes high dollar parts for David Tubbs among others, as well as some other well known names in Brownells.
He is DAMN GOOD!

Good because you say so?

Exactly how "good" is someone whose contact information must be communicated via IM?

Well-established gunsmiths aren't afraid to give out their contact information.

What are some articles in trade magazines or enthusiast periodicals that I might find a glowing review -- or at least an honest one -- that would back up your "recommendation?"

Who are some satisfied customers that would vouch for this character? Would G. David Tubb? Would Brownell's? Nope.

Scrupulous gunsmiths aren't afraid to have their telephone numbers posted in a public forum.

Gunsmiths who have well-established reputations have LONG lists of references.

Gunsmiths who are at the pinnacle of their profession don't need some cowardly proxy out beating the drums.

Bottom line is this: your recommendation is strictly subjective. Your guy doesn't have the bona fides you claim. He's good enough, but he's NOT GOOD.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 7:18:43 PM EDT
Popcorn time!
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 7:32:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/24/2006 7:33:50 PM EDT by danc46]

Originally Posted By Lester_Long:
Bottom line is this: your recommendation is strictly subjective. Your guy doesn't have the bona fides you claim. He's good enough, but he's DAMN GOOD.


One reason his phone number is not out in the public is because he doesn't want to mess with idiots like you. And I'd say anyone who's been around high end shotguns knows who he is.
If you knew him or his work, you wouldn't be saying that, Mr. Brown. I think you know more about janitoral services than you do gun work!
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 7:37:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By danc46:

Originally Posted By Lester_Long:
Bottom line is this: your recommendation is strictly subjective. Your guy doesn't have the bona fides you claim. He's good enough, but he's NOT GOOD.


One reason his phone number is not out in the public is because he doesn't want to mess with idiots like you. And I'd say anyone who's been around high end shotguns knows who he is.
If you knew him or his work, you wouldn't be saying that, Mr. Brown. I think you know more about janitoral services than you do gun work!

I've seen his work and I stand behind my statements.

If you're satisfied with his level of craftsmanship, that's great. Second-rate definitely has its place and its followers. But as long as I'm paying the bills, I want the best I can get and your dog just won't hunt.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 7:37:56 PM EDT
Allright.....both of you are riding with me to the JTAC shoot!
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 8:14:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By patrickcudd:
Allright.....both of you are riding me to the JTAC shoot!



There ya go Pat, I fixed another post for ya....you must be drinking tonight cause you keepsayin the wrong stuff.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 8:33:11 PM EDT
Roy at R&S gun service in Moore has always done a great job for me at very reasonable prices.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 8:43:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RatTerrier:

Originally Posted By patrickcudd:
Allright.....both of you are riding me to the JTAC shoot!



There ya go Pat, I fixed another post for ya....you must be drinking tonight cause you keepsayin the wrong stuff.



You must be drinking for changin' what I said to what you heard!
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 8:53:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SIG_220:
Roy at R&S gun service in Moore has always done a great job for me at very reasonable prices.

He is another "good enough" gunsmith who's not very good. He can't quite grasp the necessity of close metal tolerances. Just more proof of my original statement. If your standards are low, then go no further.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:05:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/24/2006 9:06:20 PM EDT by SIG_220]

Originally Posted By Lester_Long:

Originally Posted By SIG_220:
Roy at R&S gun service in Moore has always done a great job for me at very reasonable prices.

He is another "good enough" gunsmith who's not very good. He can't quite grasp the necessity of close metal tolerances. Just more proof of my original statement. If your standards are low, then go no further.



Well I have really only had him do some basic work on a 1911 I used to have and he did everything exactly how I wanted him to. Sometimes I think it makes people feel better that they shipped there gun to someone for work. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that but there are certain things that really don't require sending stuff to a "super duper" smith. If you want to pay someone inflated prices on top of paying shipping both ways for having a front sight installed then well go ahead.

Now if there was something that really took alot of skill I could understand but a front sight is not it.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:17:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/24/2006 9:21:08 PM EDT by Lester_Long]

Originally Posted By SIG_220:

Originally Posted By Lester_Long:

Originally Posted By SIG_220:
Roy at R&S gun service in Moore has always done a great job for me at very reasonable prices.

He is another "good enough" gunsmith who's not very good. He can't quite grasp the necessity of close metal tolerances. Just more proof of my original statement. If your standards are low, then go no further.



Well I have really only had him do some work on a 1911 I used to have and he did everything exactly how I wanted him to. Sometimes I think it makes people feel better that they shipped there gun to someone for work. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that but there are certain things that really don't require sending stuff to a "super duper" smith. If you want to pay someone inflated prices on top of paying shipping both ways for having a front sight installed then well go ahead.

Now if there was something that really took alot of skill I could understand but a front sight is not it.

Sometimes I think it makes people feel better that they paid a hack to simply install parts that took no real skill to accomplish. Because that's all Roy can really do. He cannot properly install sling swivel studs; the last I knew, they're centered and countersunk. He cannot properly fit the carrier assembly and shell stop of an Auto 5; he told me they're supposed to "wear in." He just doesn't get that when the carrier binds inside the receiver -- because it's oversize -- and the shell stop doesn't permit the magazine to be loaded -- because it's also oversize -- that there might, just MIGHT, be something wrong.

If you don't really know any better, it's hard to know you've been screwed. But if you're happy with second best, that's all well and good.

There's nothing your boy can do that you couldn't do yourself. Because of Roy's butchering, I now have the jigs and drill bits to properly drill and countersink sling swivel studs.

Typically I prefer to have work done RIGHT the first time. Is that hard to understand?

If you're going to let the cost of shipping a firearm deter you from having it fixed RIGHT, you're subscribing to false economics.

So you go right ahead and tell me just how good Roy is.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:39:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/24/2006 9:40:41 PM EDT by SIG_220]

Originally Posted By Lester_Long:

Originally Posted By SIG_220:

Originally Posted By Lester_Long:

Originally Posted By SIG_220:
Roy at R&S gun service in Moore has always done a great job for me at very reasonable prices.

He is another "good enough" gunsmith who's not very good. He can't quite grasp the necessity of close metal tolerances. Just more proof of my original statement. If your standards are low, then go no further.



Well I have really only had him do some work on a 1911 I used to have and he did everything exactly how I wanted him to. Sometimes I think it makes people feel better that they shipped there gun to someone for work. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that but there are certain things that really don't require sending stuff to a "super duper" smith. If you want to pay someone inflated prices on top of paying shipping both ways for having a front sight installed then well go ahead.

Now if there was something that really took alot of skill I could understand but a front sight is not it.

Sometimes I think it makes people feel better that they paid a hack to simply install parts that took no real skill to accomplish. Because that's all Roy can really do. He cannot properly install sling swivel studs; the last I knew, they're centered and countersunk. He cannot properly fit the carrier assembly and shell stop of an Auto 5; he told me they're supposed to "wear in." He just doesn't get that when the carrier binds inside the receiver -- because it's oversize -- and the shell stop doesn't permit the magazine to be loaded -- because it's also oversize -- that there might, just MIGHT, be something wrong.

If you don't really know any better, it's hard to know you've been screwed. But if you're happy with second best, that's all well and good.

There's nothing your boy can do that you couldn't do yourself. Because of Roy's butchering, I now have the jigs and drill bits to properly drill and countersink sling swivel studs.

Typically I prefer to have work done RIGHT the first time. Is that hard to understand?

If you're going to let the cost of shipping a firearm deter you from having it fixed RIGHT, you're subscribing to false economics.

So you go right ahead and tell me just how good Roy is.



Like I said I understand if you need serious or specialized work done but to have a front sight installed it would be wasting your money to send it off. Roy is hardly my boy. I don't even hardly know the guy. I had him make some adjustments on a 1911 of mine a while back. I had him do something else a couple of years ago but I can't remember what. He doesn't do hack job work from my limited experience with him. I always look everything over to see exactly what was done. Maybe you had a bad experience with him. That doesn't mean everyone else has. You kinda came off almost insulting in your first post directed to me. I've had probably the worst luck personally with my $2k 1911 that was worked on by expert pistol smiths. It just went back for the 2nd time to RRA because the ejector wasn't properly heat treated. I would have caught it initially but I never made it to the range before it went back the first time. My point is everyone does a crappy job at some time no matter how good they truly are.

I have had work done by Novak, Canon Creek, Ernest Langdon, Robar, and many more. Now I know there is much higher regarded smiths but all of these guys do great work for what they specialize in. There is a time and place to use good reputable smith for ceretain jobs. There is also a time where it is totally unneccesary to send your gun off for something just about any smith can do unless you just fell better about spending twice as much as you should have.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:53:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/24/2006 10:05:47 PM EDT by Lester_Long]

Originally Posted By SIG_220:
Like I said I understand if you need serious or specialized work done but to have a front sight installed it would be wasting your money to send it off.

Not if he wants it done right. If "good enough" is the standard, then look no further.



Originally Posted By SIG_220:
Roy is hardly my boy. I don't even hardly know the guy.

Right. Which is why you're extolling his virtues. You started singing his praises and now you're backpedaling since I cited a few examples of his hack jobs.



Originally Posted By SIG_220:
I had him make some adjustments on a 1911 of mine a while back. I had him do something else a couple of years ago but I can't remember what. He doesn't do hack job work from my limited experience with him.

I'm trying to reconcile this: you state that he's the best thing since sliced bread and pop-top beer, yet you can't seem to remember what it is he did? Does Roy have some kind of post-hypnotic/svengali effect on you? Maybe that thick cloud of cigarette smoke affected your thinking.



Originally Posted By SIG_220:
Maybe you had a bad experience with him. That doesn't mean everyone else has. You kinda came off almost insulting in your post.

Sorry, dude. You don't get it. I described TWO different incidents of his bungling. TWO SEPARATE incidents. That, Pollyanna, is ineptitude. That's his main product.



Originally Posted By SIG_220:
My point is everyone does a crappy job at some time no matter how good they truly are.

Nope. Over and over again -- and you seem to have missed that -- is a pretty good indication that the guy is in over his head.



Originally Posted By SIG_220:
There is a time and place to use good reputable smith for ceretain jobs.

Obviously you don't have any standards worth mentioning.




Originally Posted By SIG_220:
There is also a time where it is totally unneccesary to send your gun off for something just about any smith can do unless you just fell better about spending twice as much as you should have.

If anyone can do it, then why aren't you doing it yourself? You're subscribing to false economics and the axiom that is apparently your life's motto: GOOD ENOUGH.

If a job's worth doing, it's worth doing right the first time. Someday you'll understand.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 10:11:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/24/2006 10:13:50 PM EDT by SIG_220]

Originally Posted By Lester_Long:

Originally Posted By SIG_220:
Like I said I understand if you need serious or specialized work done but to have a front sight installed it would be wasting your money to send it off.

Not if he wants it done right. If "good enough" is the standard, then look no further.



Originally Posted By SIG_220:
Roy is hardly my boy. I don't even hardly know the guy.

Right. Which is why you're extolling his virtues. You started singing his praises and now you're backpedaling since I cited a few examples of his hack jobs.



Originally Posted By SIG_220:
I had him make some adjustments on a 1911 of mine a while back. I had him do something else a couple of years ago but I can't remember what. He doesn't do hack job work from my limited experience with him.

I'm trying to reconcile this: you state that he's the best thing since sliced bread and pop-top beer, yet you can't seem to remember what it is he did? Does Roy have some kind of post-hypnotic/svengali effect on you? Maybe that thick cloud of cigarette smoke affected your thinking.



Originally Posted By SIG_220:
Maybe you had a bad experience with him. That doesn't mean everyone else has. You kinda came off almost insulting in your post.

Sorry, dude. You don't get it. I described TWO different incidents of his bungling. TWO SEPARATE incidents. That, Pollyanna, is ineptitude. That's his main product.



Originally Posted By SIG_220:
My point is everyone does a crappy job at some time no matter how good they truly are.

Nope. Over and over again -- and you seem to have missed that -- is a pretty good indication that the guy is in over his head.



Originally Posted By SIG_220:
There is a time and place to use good reputable smith for ceretain jobs.

Obviously you don't have any standards worth mentioning.




Originally Posted By SIG_220:
There is also a time where it is totally unneccesary to send your gun off for something just about any smith can do unless you just fell better about spending twice as much as you should have.

You're subcribing to false economics and the axiom that is apparently your life's motto: GOOD ENOUGH.

If a job's worth doing, it's worth doing right the first time. Someday you'll understand.



I'm not back pedaling in the slightest. Saying that the work he had done for me was great and at a reasonable price is all there is for me to say. It's hardly me singing a list of his praises, but if you want to try and twist my words to support your snobbery go ahead. I don't know the guy well but the work he did for me was what I wanted and at a good price. I will probably have him do more work in the future if there is something general that I need.

As far as for standards you are being completely assinine. It doesn't take a professional with 30 years plus experience to properly change the oil in my truck. I'd be a fucking moron to drive hours so the most holy and blessed mechanic could so perfectly bless my filthy truck with his expert oil changing skills and only charge me $100 for his super duper reputable work.

There is certain types of work that do not take much skill to do very proficiently. I'll just leave that at that but still have a few other things to say.

You come across as a complete and total jerk Lester. If you don't like somebodies recommendation then just say I had this "xxxx" experience with that guy. That's all that is needed. You can be a snob without being an asshole. It's really not hard.

Link Posted: 3/24/2006 10:26:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/24/2006 10:28:14 PM EDT by SIG_220]


Originally Posted By SIG_220:
My point is everyone does a crappy job at some time no matter how good they truly are.


Originally Posted by Lester_Long:
Nope. Over and over again -- and you seem to have missed that -- is a pretty good indication that the guy is in over his head.



I think you are referring to the comments I made about my semi-custom 1911 I have had problems here. The one I said I have sent back twice now to RRA. It seems you are confusing RRA with R&S because Chuck at RRA personally worked on my 1911 and he is supposed to be a very good pistolsmith yet I still had a second problem. To his favor though it would be hard for him to not know that the ejector wasn't heat treated properly so that wasn't necessarily his fault. Still when I got the gun I waited 6 months for there were major problems. ANY smith can make mistakes regardless of how much you pay for something
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 10:54:04 PM EDT

You can be a snob without being an asshole. It's really not hard.


This is possible for some more than others.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 3:55:48 AM EDT
Whewwwwwww....

Thanks for ALL the information guys.

Link Posted: 3/25/2006 5:16:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SIG_220:
I'm not back pedaling in the slightest. Saying that the work he had done for me was great and at a reasonable price is all there is for me to say. It's hardly me singing a list of his praises, but if you want to try and twist my words to support your snobbery go ahead. I don't know the guy well but the work he did for me was what I wanted and at a good price. I will probably have him do more work in the future if there is something general that I need.

Yes, you backpedaled. On the one hand you state that he's done great work for you at reasonable prices -- except you can't remember exactly what that work was when pressed -- but then you state that you don't really know him very well to comment on his work. So which is it, pal?



Originally Posted By SIG_220:
As far as for standards you are being completely assinine. It doesn't take a professional with 30 years plus experience to properly change the oil in my truck.

Roy is as good a gunsmith as you are with the English language. For the money you paid him, you could've bought some punches, a bench block, a mallet, and some gunsmith screwdrivers and done the work yourself. And you could've performed any future work that he's capable of performing. But that's okay. If you don't mind the finish getting marred on your Hi Point, parts simply installed without fitting them, screws boogered up, or holes drilled slightly off-center, you ought to be quite happy with everything Roy can do.



Originally Posted By SIG_220:
I'd be a fucking moron to drive hours so the most holy and blessed mechanic could so perfectly bless my filthy truck with his expert oil changing skills and only charge me $100 for his super duper reputable work.

There is certain types of work that do not take much skill to do very proficiently. I'll just leave that at that but still have a few other things to say.

If you equate gunsmithing with oil changing on a vehicle -- I'm thinking you don't do your own -- then why don't you do it all yourself? You've made an excellent point for learning to do everything yourself.




Originally Posted By SIG_220:
You come across as a complete and total jerk Lester. If you don't like somebodies recommendation then just say I had this "xxxx" experience with that guy. That's all that is needed. You can be a snob without being an asshole. It's really not hard.

If you took the time to READ without letting your emotions drive your responses, you'd know that I did describe my experiences.

Your recommendation sucks. Period. I don't trust your boy to perform the simplest of gunsmithing jobs without the end result looking amateurish. Because of my experiences with Roy and other OKC-area gunsmiths, I now own a fairly extensive selection of gunsmithing tools for parts removal and installation. My skills are at least as good as anyone else who has a gunsmith shingle out front in this area. And I'm not that good.

Someday you'll grow up and understand all of this once you've gained a few life experiences under your belt.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 5:19:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SIG_220:
I think you are referring to the comments I made about my semi-custom 1911 I have had problems here. The one I said I have sent back twice now to RRA. It seems you are confusing RRA with R&S because Chuck at RRA personally worked on my 1911 and he is supposed to be a very good pistolsmith yet I still had a second problem. To his favor though it would be hard for him to not know that the ejector wasn't heat treated properly so that wasn't necessarily his fault. Still when I got the gun I waited 6 months for there were major problems. ANY smith can make mistakes regardless of how much you pay for something

Nope, you're confused, pal. I described TWO SEPARATE incidents where Roy screwed up on jobs I paid him to perform. I'd say that's a pattern of ineptitude.

Hint: TRY READING BEFORE RESPONDING.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 5:49:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Lester_Long:

Originally Posted By SIG_220:
I think you are referring to the comments I made about my semi-custom 1911 I have had problems here. The one I said I have sent back twice now to RRA. It seems you are confusing RRA with R&S because Chuck at RRA personally worked on my 1911 and he is supposed to be a very good pistolsmith yet I still had a second problem. To his favor though it would be hard for him to not know that the ejector wasn't heat treated properly so that wasn't necessarily his fault. Still when I got the gun I waited 6 months for there were major problems. ANY smith can make mistakes regardless of how much you pay for something

Nope, you're confused, pal. I described TWO SEPARATE incidents where Roy screwed up on jobs I paid him to perform. I'd say that's a pattern of ineptitude.

Hint: TRY READING BEFORE RESPONDING.



You may be older but you are definately the one that neeeds to grow up. I specifically said Roy did some work on a 1911 of mine. It was a Dan Wesson Patriot Marksman that he worked on if you must know. THere was something else he did for me a while back but I can't remember what. I buy, trade, and sell to many guns to remember everything perfectly. I do read but the quote you responded to was right after me talking about my RRA 1911 so maybe you should read before responding. It seems to make you feel like a man to insult or belittle others which lets me know that you are way behind in maturity for your actual age. I'm done responding here it's a waste of time. Go ahead and keep behaving like an adolescent it seems to fit you well.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 6:01:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SIG_220:
I specifically said Roy did some work on a 1911 of mine. It was a Dan Wesson Patriot Marksman that he worked on if you must know. THere was something else he did for me a while back but I can't remember what.

Right. His work was so top-notch that you can't remember what it was. Yeah, I believe that.



Originally Posted By SIG_220:
I do read but the quote you responded to was right after me talking about my RRA 1911 so maybe you should read before responding.

You stated "Maybe you had a bad experience with him." and "My point is everyone does a crappy job at some time no matter how good they truly are." did you not? Reading really is fundamental. Roy is as good at gunsmithing as you are at reading. The bar is set low for you.



Originally Posted By SIG_220:
I'm done responding here it's a waste of time. Go ahead and keep behaving like an adolescent it seems to fit you well.

Don't go away mad, just go away. Next time you get a notion to throw some money away with Roy, just give it to me. Or buy some gunsmithing tools and do it yourself.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 6:04:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SIG_220:


As far as for standards you are being completely assinine. It doesn't take a professional with 30 years plus experience to properly change the oil in my truck. I'd be a fucking moron to drive hours so the most holy and blessed mechanic could so perfectly bless my filthy truck with his expert oil changing skills and only charge me $100 for his super duper reputable work.

There is certain types of work that do not take much skill to do very proficiently. I'll just leave that at that but still have a few other things to say.

You come across as a complete and total jerk Lester. If you don't like somebodies recommendation then just say I had this "xxxx" experience with that guy. That's all that is needed. You can be a snob without being an asshole. It's really not hard.




That first paragraph really hits the nail on the head. That last paragraph pretty much sums it up too. There's a time to blast folks out of the water but this didn't look like the time to me. Whatever though, I'm simply offering up a 3rd party observation.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 7:09:46 AM EDT
I think the problem here is limited experience. Too many people think marred finish due to "gunsmithing" is perfectly acceptable. They don't know any better, so they don't complain. They're too intimidated by what they perceive to be "professional" work, so they never attempt to do anything themselves.

A good 90% of parts installation can be performed at home, so there's no real point in paying anyone to do it. Finish work, machining, wood fitting, and general parts fitment is another matter entirely.

Sling swivel studs should be centered in the wood and countersunk with no splintering. No one in OKC seems to know that.

Recoil pad installation should be even with no overhang, like most factory guns. No one here seems to get that either.

If screws are removed they shouldn't be boogered, provided properly fitting gunsmithing screwdrivers are used. And if they are boogered, they need to be dressed or replaced. This also seems to be a foreign concept to local yokel gunsmiths. (I've actually seen Chris at C&J and Roy at R&S using Craftsman screwdrivers for gunsmithing work. )

If a barrel is recrowned, the end of the barrel shouldn't be purple if proper cold bluing is applied. See above suffixes.

If you had a mechanic work on your car and it came back with a big dent in it or a scrape down the side, would you just write it off? If you had your house worked on and a hole was knocked in the wall, would you just ignore it? Nope. So why is it acceptable for the same thing to happen to your guns?

Take a little pride in what you own. For a change.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 7:34:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/25/2006 7:34:56 AM EDT by 1shott]

Originally Posted By Lester_Long:
I think the problem here is limited experience. Too many people think marred finish due to "gunsmithing" is perfectly acceptable. They don't know any better, so they don't complain. They're too intimidated by what they perceive to be "professional" work, so they never attempt to do anything themselves.

A good 90% of parts installation can be performed at home, so there's no real point in paying anyone to do it. Finish work, machining, wood fitting, and general parts fitment is another matter entirely.

Sling swivel studs should be centered in the wood and countersunk with no splintering. No one in OKC seems to know that.

Recoil pad installation should be even with no overhang, like most factory guns. No one here seems to get that either.

If screws are removed they shouldn't be boogered, provided properly fitting gunsmithing screwdrivers are used. And if they are boogered, they need to be dressed or replaced. This also seems to be a foreign concept to local yokel gunsmiths. (I've actually seen Chris at C&J and Roy at R&S using Craftsman screwdrivers for gunsmithing work. )

If a barrel is recrowned, the end of the barrel shouldn't be purple if proper cold bluing is applied. See above suffixes.

If you had a mechanic work on your car and it came back with a big dent in it or a scrape down the side, would you just write it off? If you had your house worked on and a hole was knocked in the wall, would you just ignore it? Nope. So why is it acceptable for the same thing to happen to your guns?

Take a little pride in what you own. For a change.




One of the few posts that I agree with you on. Very good.





Edit to highlight the part I liked the best.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 7:47:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/25/2006 7:50:26 AM EDT by danc46]

Originally Posted By Lester_Long:
I think the problem here is limited experience. ...,


Take a little pride in what you own. For a change.



Lester, I'll bet your a hen pecked, short-d*cked, no-balls, keyboard commando. Are you sure your real name isn't Schitze instead of Brown?
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 7:48:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1shott:

Originally Posted By Lester_Long:
I think the problem here is limited experience. Too many people think marred finish due to "gunsmithing" is perfectly acceptable. They don't know any better, so they don't complain. They're too intimidated by what they perceive to be "professional" work, so they never attempt to do anything themselves.

A good 90% of parts installation can be performed at home, so there's no real point in paying anyone to do it. Finish work, machining, wood fitting, and general parts fitment is another matter entirely.

Sling swivel studs should be centered in the wood and countersunk with no splintering. No one in OKC seems to know that.

Recoil pad installation should be even with no overhang, like most factory guns. No one here seems to get that either.

If screws are removed they shouldn't be boogered, provided properly fitting gunsmithing screwdrivers are used. And if they are boogered, they need to be dressed or replaced. This also seems to be a foreign concept to local yokel gunsmiths. (I've actually seen Chris at C&J and Roy at R&S using Craftsman screwdrivers for gunsmithing work. )

If a barrel is recrowned, the end of the barrel shouldn't be purple if proper cold bluing is applied. See above suffixes.

If you had a mechanic work on your car and it came back with a big dent in it or a scrape down the side, would you just write it off? If you had your house worked on and a hole was knocked in the wall, would you just ignore it? Nope. So why is it acceptable for the same thing to happen to your guns?

Take a little pride in what you own. For a change.




One of the few posts that I agree with you on. Very good.





Edit to highlight the part I liked the best.



I wouldn't ignore it but like I said that was not my experience with the smith I referred to. If it was I would never have recommended him.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 8:48:11 AM EDT
theirs a guy who post in the OK ht forum who does work on shotguns and has posted pics in the shotgun forum........ I'm not going to mention his screen name the way this thread is going
but from the pic's I've seen of his work i'd let him work on my scaterguns ........

If your interested mikeyinokc let me know and ill IM you his screen name ..........
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 9:20:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/25/2006 9:23:00 AM EDT by Lester_Long]

Originally Posted By SIG_220:
I wouldn't ignore it but like I said that was not my experience with the smith I referred to. If it was I would never have recommended him.

Your "experience?" Jesus Christ, you can't even remember what in the hell he did for you. How in the hell can you in good faith offer any kind of a recommendation when you can't remember what the guy did?
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 9:25:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By acman145acp:
theirs a guy who post in the OK ht forum who does work on shotguns and has posted pics in the shotgun forum........ I'm not going to mention his screen name the way this thread is going
but from the pic's I've seen of his work i'd let him work on my scaterguns ........

If your interested mikeyinokc let me know and ill IM you his screen name ..........

Post up the guy's name. A good gunsmith -- something that is extinct in Oklahoma City -- can sink or swim on his own merits.

I find it extremely difficult to believe that anyone with a rock-solid reputation would waste his time working with locals who don't have any money.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 9:27:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By danc46:

Originally Posted By Lester_Long:
I think the problem here is limited experience. ...,


Take a little pride in what you own. For a change.



Lester, I'll bet your a hen pecked, short-d*cked, no-balls, keyboard commando. Are you sure your real name isn't Schitze instead of Brown?

As stated previously, gunsmiths capable of QUALITY work don't need a cowardly proxy banging the drums and posting petty insults to promote their business.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 9:43:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Lester_Long:

Originally Posted By SIG_220:
I wouldn't ignore it but like I said that was not my experience with the smith I referred to. If it was I would never have recommended him.

Your "experience?" Jesus Christ, you can't even remember what in the hell he did for you. How in the hell can you in good faith offer any kind of a recommendation when you can't remember what the guy did?



I already said like 4 times now he did work on a 1911 of mine in the past. I don't remember what I had him do on another gun like a couple of years ago. I have a real bad habit of horse trading so I go through lots and lots of firearms keeping only the ones I really really like. If he had buggared something up I would definately remember it but the fact that I don't means I was happy and fine with his work. I used to use him for transfers occasionally but he jacked his prices up for that so I stopped. You know I sent my Sig 220 that I no longer have (I discovered 1911's and it was history) to Novak. I can remember I had him to a trigger job and had him polish the feed ramp, but there was a couple off other small things he did. I can't remember what it was. It is something of little consequence so many guns ago so why would I? He did great work that is the thing I do remember. Not everyone has a picture perfect memory like you.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 10:04:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/25/2006 10:19:07 AM EDT by Lester_Long]

Originally Posted By SIG_220:
I already said like 4 times now he did work on a 1911 of mine in the past. I don't remember what I had him do on another gun like a couple of years ago.

<SNIP>

If he had buggared something up I would definately remember it but the fact that I don't means I was happy and fine with his work.

<SNIP>

I can remember I had him to a trigger job and had him polish the feed ramp, but there was a couple off other small things he did. I can't remember what it was. It is something of little consequence so many guns ago so why would I? He did great work that is the thing I do remember.

So which is it, sport? Very convenient of you to omit the specifics when asked. You either paid him to work on your gun and remember what he did or you didn't have him perform any work. Period. If it's of "little consequence," then why in the hell are you recommending him based on that? Then again, maybe that says everything I've claimed all along: GOOD ENOUGH, BUT NOT GOOD.

It's not a lie if YOU believe it.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 10:12:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Lester_Long:

Originally Posted By acman145acp:
theirs a guy who post in the OK ht forum who does work on shotguns and has posted pics in the shotgun forum........ I'm not going to mention his screen name the way this thread is going
but from the pic's I've seen of his work i'd let him work on my scaterguns ........

If your interested mikeyinokc let me know and ill IM you his screen name ..........

Post up the guy's name. A good gunsmith -- something that is extinct in Oklahoma City -- can sink or swim on his own merits.

I find it extremely difficult to believe that anyone with a rock-solid reputation would waste his time working with locals who don't have any money.



I don't beleive he's in OK city.......... and he reads the forum if he want to throw his name in this shitstorm i'll let him do it ....

Like i said before i've only seen picures of the guys work .......never handled it........... but based of the pictures i've seen i wouldn't be a bit concerned to let him work on my scaterguns......
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 10:17:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By acman145acp:

Originally Posted By Lester_Long:

Originally Posted By acman145acp:
theirs a guy who post in the OK ht forum who does work on shotguns and has posted pics in the shotgun forum........ I'm not going to mention his screen name the way this thread is going
but from the pic's I've seen of his work i'd let him work on my scaterguns ........

If your interested mikeyinokc let me know and ill IM you his screen name ..........

Post up the guy's name. A good gunsmith -- something that is extinct in Oklahoma City -- can sink or swim on his own merits.

I find it extremely difficult to believe that anyone with a rock-solid reputation would waste his time working with locals who don't have any money.



I don't beleive he's in OK city.......... and he reads the forum if he want to throw his name in this shitstorm i'll let him do it ....

Like i said before i've only seen picures of the guys work .......never handled it........... but based of the pictures i've seen i wouldn't be a bit concerned to let him work on my scaterguns......

He's not in Oklahoma City, which was the original query. At any rate, post his name. He can stand on his own reputation. He doesn't need anyone to protect him.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 12:15:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lester_Long:
snip

He's not in Oklahoma City, which was the original query. At any rate, post his name. He can stand on his own reputation. He doesn't need anyone to protect him.



Bro the fucking people you sugested arent even in the state so what does it matter........

I'm not protecting anyone ....... I'm just not going to drop someones name in a thread that's a shitstorm already
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 12:48:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By acman145acp:
Bro the fucking people you sugested arent even in the state so what does it matter........

The crux of the discussion has been that there are some shit-hot gunsmiths in the OKC area. Except no one can point out any notable accomplishments or even remember what it is that they're so shit-hot at doing. So do you have a recommendation of someone in the OKC area, or are you recommending as I have to send the gun out to someone who knows what they're doing? A yes or no answer will suffice.



Originally Posted By acman145acp:
I'm not protecting anyone ....... I'm just not going to drop someones name in a thread that's a shitstorm already

If the guy has a good reputation then you have no reason to be concerned. Absolutely none. If he's a hack we'll discuss it.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 1:11:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/25/2006 1:14:21 PM EDT by SIG_220]

Originally Posted By Lester_Long:

Originally Posted By SIG_220:
<SNIP>

I can remember I had him to a trigger job and had him polish the feed ramp, but there was a couple off other small things he did. I can't remember what it was. It is something of little consequence so many guns ago so why would I? He did great work that is the thing I do remember.

So which is it, sport? Very convenient of you to omit the specifics when asked. You either paid him to work on your gun and remember what he did or you didn't have him perform any work. Period. If it's of "little consequence," then why in the hell are you recommending him based on that? Then again, maybe that says everything I've claimed all along: GOOD ENOUGH, BUT NOT GOOD.

It's not a lie if YOU believe it.



If you would pay attention like you keep saying I need to do you would know that I was talking about Novak in this little tid bit you so conveniently snipped leaving out Novak's name right after I mentioned Novak's name. It has nothing to do with Roy.

You shouldn't cut and paste and leave out the specifics. It only makes you look like an asshole bent on pushing whatever deranged agenda it is you have for insulting others regardless of truth or accuracy.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 1:16:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SIG_220:

Originally Posted By Lester_Long:

Originally Posted By SIG_220:
<SNIP>

I can remember I had him to a trigger job and had him polish the feed ramp, but there was a couple off other small things he did. I can't remember what it was. It is something of little consequence so many guns ago so why would I? He did great work that is the thing I do remember.

So which is it, sport? Very convenient of you to omit the specifics when asked. You either paid him to work on your gun and remember what he did or you didn't have him perform any work. Period. If it's of "little consequence," then why in the hell are you recommending him based on that? Then again, maybe that says everything I've claimed all along: GOOD ENOUGH, BUT NOT GOOD.

It's not a lie if YOU believe it.


If you would pay attention like you keep saying I need to do you would know that I was talking about Novak in this little tid bit you so conveniently snipped right after I mentioned Novak's name. It has nothing to do with Roy.

I believe the discussion has centered on OKC area gunsmiths, has it not? And in your case, Roy of R&S Gun Service & Supply and how you can't remember what he did for you. Do you have attention deficit problems?
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 1:19:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lester_Long:

Originally Posted By SIG_220:

Originally Posted By Lester_Long:

Originally Posted By SIG_220:
<SNIP>

I can remember I had him to a trigger job and had him polish the feed ramp, but there was a couple off other small things he did. I can't remember what it was. It is something of little consequence so many guns ago so why would I? He did great work that is the thing I do remember.

So which is it, sport? Very convenient of you to omit the specifics when asked. You either paid him to work on your gun and remember what he did or you didn't have him perform any work. Period. If it's of "little consequence," then why in the hell are you recommending him based on that? Then again, maybe that says everything I've claimed all along: GOOD ENOUGH, BUT NOT GOOD.

It's not a lie if YOU believe it.


If you would pay attention like you keep saying I need to do you would know that I was talking about Novak in this little tid bit you so conveniently snipped right after I mentioned Novak's name. It has nothing to do with Roy.

I believe the discussion has centered on OKC area gunsmiths, has it not? And in your case, Roy of R&S Gun Service & Supply and how you can't remember what he did for you. Do you have attention deficit problems?



I was responding to your quote so if I do you must as well.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 1:29:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SIG_220:
I was responding to your quote so if I do you must as well.

Every time you get cornered on something, you change the subject.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 1:33:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lester_Long:

Originally Posted By SIG_220:
I was responding to your quote so if I do you must as well.

Every time you get cornered on something, you change the subject.


That's strange I was just responding to a question you asked....
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 1:44:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SIG_220:

Originally Posted By Lester_Long:

Originally Posted By SIG_220:
I was responding to your quote so if I do you must as well.

Every time you get cornered on something, you change the subject.


That's strange I was just responding to a question you asked....

Not quite. I've taken you to task over some rather bold claims and you've either backed down by stating that you don't really know the person in question, stated that you don't recall what work the person performed for you, or claim that you were discussing someone else entirely.

You're beginning to remind me of Jon Lovitz's Tommy Flanagan liar character.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 2:29:56 PM EDT
Lester, I hope you go to the JTAC shoot. I'll enjoy meeting you face to face. Then we'll see if your balls are as big as your keyboard!
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 2:52:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By danc46:
Lester, I hope you go to the JTAC shoot. I'll enjoy meeting you face to face. Then we'll see if your balls are as big as your keyboard!

Like you would do anything if you had the temerity to actually meet me.
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