The dumbing down of American youth, the learning curve, pronounced God Damn learning curve!


I have a an 9 year old nephew thats in the third grade, got there cause his teachers in the tecumseh school districts thought it cruel that he be left behind from other kids his age, even though he can't read or write, can't count above twentyfive or spell his name correctly, tecumseh school system has him PC labled as "learning disabled", his outward appearances appear normal as any other 9 year old, attention spans about as long as an ants pecker, though he hasn't been diagnosed with ADD or anything simular by several different specialist,

but to get back to the point, when he was in Norman public school systems, he was listed as functionaly retarded, his teachers recomended that he repeat transitional course again as he was not advanced enough to go into the first grade, to get admitted into a special ed classroom and that my sister get him a special ed tutour,

well they moved to tecumseh but at least she took their advise and got him a couple of tutours and in a special ed class, now fast forward two years to date, he still can't do much more than spell his name in the shortened version "Tim" and count to twenty five, but they say "he progressing so well, that when his test scores are compaired to other kids his age he's only a few points below theirs" their words not mine, the teachers are grading his work on the curve, what the fuck is that shit, I bet if I was to ask them to show me the curve their using, the fucker would be nearly round, these sonsabitches are going to pass him on to the next grade every year because they don't want to hurt his feelings because it might fuck him up emotionaly or turn him into a serial killer or some such shit, their going to short dick him into a substandard life where if he's lucky he'll be able to work at micky D's, if he can read the menu,

I'm tired of all this liberal asskissing politicaly correct pussy shit, if he's functionaly retarded or just learning disabled or whatever, they need to do him the favor of holding him back till he can function in life and not keep passing him till he graduates just to keep from hurting his feelings, I got into a big arguement with her and his dad this morning over this, they think he's doing fine, and I can't convince them otherwise, of course he's their kid, but god damnit, I can't see nothing good by the school system passing him through, I know that school systems get 2 for 1 money from the state/feds for indian kids, so maybe that has some bering as to their decision making.


Oh well, for no better jobs than are here and will be coming here in the future, he's surely to fit in like a fitted peg.

By the way, I like Clinton.

Our public school system and educational bureaucrats are more concerned with looking good than doing the jobs they are hired to do - teach effectively.
We have an "upper class" running education, grade school to colleges, that know what is best for the "unwashed masses" and the best they can do is create clones that strengthen their veiws -" I have a doctorate or a masters. I don't have to be productive, I just have to look good. If it looks like a pile of shit, it's not, because I say so! Live with it, peon!"
We're fucked because so many people buy into "education needs money". The money doesn't go into teaching the kids, it goes into bureaucrat salaries.

One more reason to homeschool.

For the record, my three children are sitting on the couch, the older two are taking turns reading to the baby. No prompting from me.

Seriously, though, we're a homeschooling family.

My kids are asked constantly what school they go to/what teacher they have/what grade they're in. They say they're in whatever grade their age-peers are in to alleviate confusion, but the truth is their work is (finally) at or above grade level. (They went to public school for a while, and when I took them out they were...well, my oldest was doing okay but my then-first-grader couldn't read three letter words or add numbers above 5. She's now reading at least a grade level above her age-peers.)

They also tell people that I'm their teacher, but the truth is, I'm not. They really teach themselves. I see myself as...more of a librarian. I can tell them basic facts and lead them to the information they need to learn whatever it is they want to know. For example, my oldest heard someone referring to a "times table," so I printed a blank one, filled in about 4 of the numbers and told him how it worked. Less than an hour later he'd figured it out and filled it in completely, triple checking his own work. My daughter now reads almost constantly (when she's not outside playing in the dirt) and wants to know more about dinosaurs. I taught them how to find what they want in the library, encyclopedias, dictionaries...and I've taught them about Google.

I don't grade them on anything, though. Instead, I look over their papers (or do an activity with them) and we review the material until I'm certain they understand it, and then we go on to the next thing. So technically, I suppose they aren't really in any particular "grade."

OMFG now there's a concept! That sounds more like something that might actually work! Lady, you are a danger to public schools everywhere. The thought police will be keeping an eye on you from now on.

I know that if you work with your children and start them on course, they are curious enough and want to keep reading and learning, my own children were reading "Katie the kitty" and "See Spot run" and some other childrens books and could count to 100 and do some basic arithmatic, knew the alphabet and all colors by the time they were 4 and 5 years old, but me and their mother worked constantly with them, plus I had them both in pre school so that helped alittle,

but why would the teachers and school system keep passing a student through the grades, when they know by the quality and content of their work that it is substandard when compaired to children their own age, the schools are becoming nothing more than babysetters, if the kids arn't motivated enough to learn, then the teachers are not going to help them.

Ndenway, you would be surprised at the lack of ethics when it comes to school admininstrators.
They always blame problems on the parents. When a school principal in the PC school system told me that, I almost came unwound. It wasn't about my son, but one of my boys on the soccer team I coached. The parents were good people, involved with their children to a great extent.
I almost came across the table and jerked him to his feet! He was slandering the kid and his parents to excuse how f*cked up his school was. I'm still POed when I think about it!
PC North - the highest number of National Merit Scholars in the state and the highest number of drop outs!
One of the teachers later told me the principal was as two faced as they come when dealing with the teachers and the parents.
He was well thought of by the school system administration.
One friend, a professor of ecomonics at OU, put his son in Heritage Hall because of the poor school systems in Oklahoma. As a past instructor at OU, I can tell you the OU administration is worse than public schools.
We are overcome by a bureaucratic ruling class, that doesn't give a shit about anything but making themselves look good. And the more faces they have, the better they can fabricate lies, the more they seem to succeed.
IM inbound.

The current state of public education in this country is disgraceful.

One of the TV rags (Jon Stossel, I think it was Dateline) did a story on the "dumbing down" of America recently. It was interesting to see how the expenditure per student for countries like Poland were about half or a third what we spend here, yet their students readily whooped the US students in tests. Their key? Privatization. Gee, give the govt some competition, let the parents send their kids wherever they want to, and the schools improve. If they don't, they have to close because they have no students left!

The problem with our entire government is that it's too big, too all-encompassing to really do a good job at anything. Kind of like a flashlight that's trying to be a cellphone, radio, handcuff key, lantern, mp3 player, and stapler in one. "Jack of all trades, master of none."

did you know that oklahoma schools are almost a year and a half behind schools that are on the west coast.   Its not only time zones we have its education zones too....

Quoted: The problem with our entire government is that it's too big, too all-encompassing to really do a good job at anything. Kind of like a flashlight that's trying to be a cellphone, radio, handcuff key, lantern, mp3 player, and stapler in one. "Jack of all trades, master of none."

Sister, they try to improve government with "measureable" results like the national testing in schools. The honchos at the schools cheat on those results using various methods. Some segments of the classes are counted twice. one segment dropped, etc to raise the average so the honchos don't look bad.
We are overcome with so many bureaucrats that know nothing of what it takes to do the jobs at lower levels yet are making decisions on how to cut costs. They do things like order 20 cases of grease and no grease guns. Then wnder what preventative maintenance is not being done. The one grease gun in the area has to be checked out, cannot be used for more than 5 minutes (it takes 30 minutes to fill out all the forms to get the grease gun). Regulations say they must maintain ONE grease gun is storage at all times, so no one can use the ONE grease gun they have, etc. etc. etc.
They don't need to buy any more because they already have one!
The people that make these rules and supervise are all graduates of our colleges. You know, the halls of academic freedom where if you don't agree with the professor, you flunk his class!
They come out of colleges with an over inflated egos and attitudes they are better than anyone else. In the ivory halls of academia in this nation, integrity is given accolades of praise but never seen in practice.
Our educational system, its leaders and their lack of integrity, is destroying this nation.
According to their way of thinking, an Ed.D should make $150000 a year, but a carpenter, plumber, etc should work for minimum wage. After all, they are not as good as an "educated" person.

Nden

I typed out a response before danc did and then didn't post it for various reasons.....

First and foremost sorry about your nephew bud......... as big a prick as I am i've got a soft spot for kids.... i really hope things work out/get better for him

RANT

I'm going to make this short and sweet......
I hate PC bulshit and a lot/ close to most of the people in the education field....

But it's a two edged sword folks their are at least 3 times as many fucked up parents as their
are educators........ and that's in a small school system..  in a bigger one that numbers gonna go
way up..... those parents cause a lot of the stupid shit that go's on in schools

In short this whole country's going down the shitter plain and simple....... be prepared


a prime example of stupid PC shit
It's kinda like people getting all bent out of shape because you call a "contractor" a "mercenary"
give me a fucking break........ if it didn't pay what it does hardly any of the guys doing it would be their  ..... if you think otherwise your a prime example of what most students come out of
school being

Don't get me wrong If i didn't have 2 young kids I'd be trying my damndest to land a job .......
...... but raising my kids is more important to me than the money......


RANT

well I got my mom talking to my sister, gonna try to get her to send him down here to go to norman schools, they got a very good LD program and tutours, its parent interactive so you stay in the loop as to how the childs progressing, I think that should get him to learning at least the basics, it'll be a strech money wise for the tutours, but I can swing it if I don't buy any ammo.

this PC horseshit in schools isn't worth a damn, blurrs too many boundries.

ACman, I spent years coaching kids. It was very productive and a lot of fun.
Nothing will set me off quicker than seeing a child mistreated. My wife has got hold of me more than once in shopping malls for the way a parent back handed a child. YOU NEVER HIT A CHILD IN THE FACE - that is what the ass is for! I don't give a rat's ass who you are, that is mistreatment.
Of course, I've seen the times I'd like to hang one or two of them from a soccer goal!
Good for Ndenway for doing his best for a his sister's child. Shame on the school and bureaucrats that let it get that bad!
Our children are our future and they deserve the best we can give them!

"We have an "upper class" running education, grade school to colleges, that know what is best for the "unwashed masses" and the best they can do is create clones that strengthen their veiws -" I have a doctorate or a masters. I don't have to be productive, I just have to look good. If it looks like a pile of shit, it's not, because I say so! Live with it, peon!"
LOL  It must suck being dictated to and having the government make decisions for you.  We all know educated people are all assholes and elitists.  I went through the graduate program at OU and was degreed in Public Administration.  I have always thought for myself, maybe you should start and stop reading Move-On.Org...  

This all sounds a bit Socialistic and Klintonesque.

Quoted: "We have an "upper class" running education, grade school to colleges, that know what is best for the "unwashed masses" and the best they can do is create clones that strengthen their veiws -" I have a doctorate or a masters. I don't have to be productive, I just have to look good. If it looks like a pile of shit, it's not, because I say so! Live with it, peon!" LOL  It must suck being dictated to and having the government make decisions for you.  We all know educated people are all assholes and elitists.  I went through the graduate program at OU and was degreed in Public Administration.  I have always thought for myself, maybe you should start and stop reading Move-On.Org...   This all sounds a bit Socialistic and Klintonesque.

Well, if you've been faculty at a major university, played the politics necessary to stay on faculty, or taken courses from a tenured professor that allows the graduate students to teach the class, you might know what I am talking about.
Or if you have ever been involved with the OU CCE administration, you might understand where I am coming from. Or evaluated an apprenticeship for the American Council of Education.
We have a short coming of skilled labor in this country, we look to the Careertechs in this state to fill those shortcomings. It ain't getting done! It's simple, you don't have people with callous on their hands determining what the needs of those professions are.
I've never seen a EdD that could tell what was necessary to take an apprentice and make them into a journeyman.
101st, I know you are proud of your education and accomplishments. The bureaucracy of government is trying to change because of it's lack  of performance. The whole civil service is looking at performance based promotions. The professional bureaucratic class is out of hand - how may millions and billions of dollars are being wasted in Iraq and in the US? How are we going to measure the performance of that bureaucracy - by how much money they waste?
I know of building contractors that fail to meet their contract specifications yet still get the changes and paid twice for what  they should haved done in the first place. The COR in those cases had no idea of what was going on and how it should have been done in the first place.
As far as industry being brought into this state, we are screwed. The GM people will go from $23 an hour to $8 an hour. Some of them are highly skilled.
I have never seen a paper pusher that kept a machine running or line going by the amount of paper he generated.  
Once before you used the term "thinking out of the box" in the description of how you managed your people. It is a euphemism that indicates very limited thinking by those who think they are better thinkers than the ones doing the job.
In the oil industry, where you have to perform or you don't stay - unlike government work - young people come out of college, buy $300,000 homes, drive $40,000 SUVs, take long extended vacations, and are in hock up their necks. A little bump in the road and their world comes down around them. If that is the best our institutions of higher learning can do, then the US is in a decline that will not stop in our lifetimes.
It isn't because of the working class! It comes  from the ever-growing nonproductive bureaucracy and an attitude - We're too good to get our hands dirty!
If you haven't noticed, but this country is fast becoming full of the working poor!
That isn't Klintonesque, Wobbly doctrine (look that up under World Worker's Federation) or socialistic - IT"S CONCERN FOR MY COUNTRY!

101st - take a look at the Lawton School system. An ARNG is overseas in Iraq and being paid $3500 a month to provide security at school games. When the investigation got going, they were looking at over 20 school administrators facing embezzlement charges.
Where it is now, I don't know. That happened last summer.
It had school administrators puckered up all over the state. The Edmond school system had one of their ED.Ds in charge of school finances resign because he couldn't tell them where several million dollars was at!
No, I guess maybe my problem isn't with people becomiing elitists with more education - just the fact THEY AREN"T WORTH WHAT THEY ARE PAID AND KIDS SUFFER FROM IT! AND THEY WANT MORE MONEY TO WASTE!
I don't mind paying for what a solid brick is worth but DON"T ask me to pay for a turd and tell me it is a solid brick!

Quoted: Quoted: "We have an "upper class" running education, grade school to colleges, that know what is best for the "unwashed masses" and the best they can do is create clones that strengthen their veiws -" I have a doctorate or a masters. I don't have to be productive, I just have to look good. If it looks like a pile of shit, it's not, because I say so! Live with it, peon!" LOL  It must suck being dictated to and having the government make decisions for you.  We all know educated people are all assholes and elitists.  I went through the graduate program at OU and was degreed in Public Administration.  I have always thought for myself, maybe you should start and stop reading Move-On.Org...   This all sounds a bit Socialistic and Klintonesque. Well, if you've been faculty at a major university, played the politics necessary to stay on faculty, or taken courses from a tenured professor that allows the graduate students to teach the class, you might know what I am talking about. Or if you have ever been involved with the OU CCE administration, you might understand where I am coming from. Or evaluated an apprenticeship for the American Council of Education. We have a short coming of skilled labor in this country, we look to the Careertechs in this state to fill those shortcomings. It ain't getting done! It's simple, you don't have people with callous on their hands determining what the needs of those professions are. I've never seen a EdD that could tell what was necessary to take an apprentice and make them into a journeyman. 101st, I know you are proud of your education and accomplishments. The bureaucracy of government is trying to change because of it's lack  of performance. The whole civil service is looking at performance based promotions. The professional bureaucratic class is out of hand - how may millions and billions of dollars are being wasted in Iraq and in the US? How are we going to measure the performance of that bureaucracy - by how much money they waste? I know of building contractors that fail to meet their contract specifications yet still get the changes and paid twice for what  they should haved done in the first place. The COR in those cases had no idea of what was going on and how it should have been done in the first place. As far as industry being brought into this state, we are screwed. The GM people will go from $23 an hour to $8 an hour. Some of them are highly skilled. I have never seen a paper pusher that kept a machine running or line going by the amount of paper he generated.   Once before you used the term "thinking out of the box" in the description of how you managed your people. It is a euphemism that indicates very limited thinking by those who think they are better thinkers than the ones doing the job. In the oil industry, where you have to perform or you don't stay - unlike government work - young people come out of college, buy $300,000 homes, drive $40,000 SUVs, take long extended vacations, and are in hock up their necks. A little bump in the road and their world comes down around them. If that is the best our institutions of higher learning can do, then the US is in a decline that will not stop in our lifetimes. It isn't because of the working class! It comes  from the ever-growing nonproductive bureaucracy and an attitude - We're too good to get our hands dirty! If you haven't noticed, but this country is fast becoming full of the working poor! That isn't Klintonesque, Wobbly doctrine (look that up under World Worker's Federation) or socialistic - IT"S CONCERN FOR MY COUNTRY!

Thats no bs their............ it's truly sad that a guy that has some skill (not saying i'm the best by any means) in a trade that is always in demand could actually do better living on welfare and cheating the system...like lots of other people do.....

btw what does all this shit have to do with public schools

Quoted: Thats no bs their............ it's truly sad that a guy that has some skill (not saying i'm the best by any means) in a trade that is always in demand could actually do better living on welfare and cheating the system...like lots of other people do..... btw what does all this shit have to do with public schools

ACman, it comes from someone with a doctorate that thinks they are entitled to $150K a year because they are "professional" and have a disdain for those with grease on their shirts or hands.
Because they get "dirty" they are only worth a little more than minimum wage.
That is the attitude they give to kids in grade school, high school, and in college. As a result, the working poor as a group is getting larger by the day.
The head of the NEA, wears a $25,000 Rolex, flies in a private jet all across the US.
When they have seminars or meetings, prime rib, shrimp, champagne are standard fare.
The head of the OEA  has his wife listed as an employeee of the OEA yet she is never there.
He makes $75K a year, drives a $60K Land Rover, and lives in a $800K mansion near downtown OKC.  
Both of them are ripping the public off big time!
And they represent the "professional bureaucrats" in education in this country!

“Well, if you've been faculty at a major university, played the politics necessary to stay on faculty, or taken courses from a tenured professor that allows the graduate students to teach the class, you might know what I am talking about.”

Have you been a faculty member at a major University?  What is your highest degree? Yes I have taken classes from tenured professors; PhDs are required for all graduate classes.  And no, I don’t know what you are talking about.  You come across as someone who despises all business owners, supervisors, administrators; basically you don’t want to have to answer to anyone.  I’ll bet you never were in the military, either!  If you were you didn't get far with that attitude.

“The bureaucracy of government is trying to change because of its lack of performance.”

Isn’t that the goal of any business that is trying to stay competitive?

“The whole civil service is looking at performance based promotions.”

What is wrong with that?  The private sector has always operated that way.  The ONLY group who has their panties in a bunch over NSPS is the Union.  Hmmmm, no Mama’s skirt to hide behind anymore?  Is that a bad thing?

“Once before you used the term "thinking out of the box" in the description of how you managed your people. It is a euphemism that indicates very limited thinking by those who think they are better thinkers than the ones doing the job.”

No it is a term that is applied to break paradigms in an organization paralyzed by inefficiency.  There are other terms such as LEAN and Six Sigma, which are proven tools to accomplish this mission.  If you knew anything about it you would know your previous assertion is incorrect.

“In the oil industry, where you have to perform or you don't stay - unlike government work - young people come out of college, buy $300,000 homes, drive $40,000 SUVs, take long extended vacations, and are in hock up their necks. A little bump in the road and their world comes down around them.”

Again you are entering an area you have no clue about.  There are no new college people, which I assume you mean grads, buying $300,000.00 homes, $40,000.00 vehicles.  Most grads we hire on the intern program start out as a GS-9 and make it to a GS-11 in three to four years. That ranges from about $40,000.00-$50,000.00 annually (gross). http://www.opm.gov/oca/06tables/html/RUS.asp  
Extended vacations?  How does 4 hours of leave per pay period (26 annually) sound to you?  You’ll get to 8 hours after 15 years.  Can you wait that long?  As far as people making bad decisions, it happens all the time.  If you live beyond your means it will catch up to you eventually.  The smart ones learn and the stupid ones do not.  It has nothing to do with their level of education.  Professors could care less if you are successful, in school or after graduation.  Quite frankly, it’s not their problem.  College is about discipline, determination, and hard work.  Contrary to what you espouse, it’s not given to you!

“If that is the best our institutions of higher learning can do, then the US is in a decline that will not stop in our lifetimes.”

Institutions of higher learning sell a product.  You PAY for the education you are seeking.  NOTHING is owed you, me or anyone else.  It’s up to the individual to learn and be successful.  Universities are full of Klinton loving Socialist professors.  They spout that diatribe all the time.  The individual student has to be able to sort through the lies and get to what is the real crux of what is being presented.  There is more to studying than going to class.   Just like in real life, you have to cooperate to graduate.

There is great comfort in finger pointing.  When you always have an alibi, you’re never wrong.  Just remember, when you point a finger, there are three pointing back at YOU.  I believe in personal accountability.  That comes from core values, taught by your parents and family.

You're not still mad about not being selected for a job over in 3001 are you?  If you want to work for us, keep applying...

If you like popcorn break it out......I got a felling this is gona be a good one......

Me i made 7&7  and got out a 2 1/2 lb container of cashews (dont care for popcorn).....

Naw, this is just common sense stuff.  Sorry to hijack the thread.  I just get tired of folks pointing fingers at others for their problems.  There is no luck or destiny, you make your own way and should be held accountable for the decisions you make.

Pass the popcorn, and I'll take a martini...

hell I just got to work, no drinks for me, and ya'll can stick the popcorn, I know how its made cause I worked in a popcorn packaging factory in Ulysses KS.

Quoted: “Well, if you've been faculty at a major university, played the politics necessary to stay on faculty, or taken courses from a tenured professor that allows the graduate students to teach the class, you might know what I am talking about.” Have you been a faculty member at a major University?  What is your highest degree? Yes I have taken classes from tenured professors; PhDs are required for all graduate classes.  And no, I don’t know what you are talking about.  You come across as someone who despises all business owners, supervisors, administrators; basically you don’t want to have to answer to anyone.  I’ll bet you never were in the military, either!  If you were you didn't get far with that attitude. Yes, I have been. Not only that, I have been recognized as Distinguished Faculty at OU. I'll put my education and experience at least on a par and most probably superior to yours. And there is nothing wrong with requiring YOU or any PUBLIC servant answering  toYOUR BOSS, THE TAXPAYER. “The bureaucracy of government is trying to change because of its lack of performance.” Isn’t that the goal of any business that is trying to stay competitive? If they don't, they go out of business, Not so in a government bureaucracy - they hire more bureaucrats. “The whole civil service is looking at performance based promotions.” What is wrong with that?  The private sector has always operated that way.  The ONLY group who has their panties in a bunch over NSPS is the Union.  Hmmmm, no Mama’s skirt to hide behind anymore?  Is that a bad thing? The bureaucrats rating themselves? We already know how great a job they are doing - telling us so seems to be their main mission. “Once before you used the term "thinking out of the box" in the description of how you managed your people. It is a euphemism that indicates very limited thinking by those who think they are better thinkers than the ones doing the job.” No it is a term that is applied to break paradigms in an organization paralyzed by inefficiency.  There are other terms such as LEAN and Six Sigma, which are proven tools to accomplish this mission.  If you knew anything about it you would know your previous assertion is incorrect. When you can quote Dr. Deming's 13 points by heart to me, then I'll take what you say in consideration. Until then, I'll believe it is employees doing the work and the bosses taking the credit. “In the oil industry, where you have to perform or you don't stay - unlike government work - young people come out of college, buy $300,000 homes, drive $40,000 SUVs, take long extended vacations, and are in hock up their necks. A little bump in the road and their world comes down around them.” Again you are entering an area you have no clue about.  There are no new college people, which I assume you mean grads, buying $300,000.00 homes, $40,000.00 vehicles.  Most grads we hire on the intern program start out as a GS-9 and make it to a GS-11 in three to four years. That ranges from about $40,000.00-$50,000.00 annually (gross). http://www.opm.gov/oca/06tables/html/RUS.asp   Again, I do know what I am talking about. Check out who is supporting the Hornets here in OKC. It is Chesapeake, Devon, and Kerr-McGee who have bought most of the high end tickets, It's not government employees. Extended vacations?  How does 4 hours of leave per pay period (26 annually) sound to you?  You’ll get to 8 hours after 15 years.  Can you wait that long?  As far as people making bad decisions, it happens all the time.  If you live beyond your means it will catch up to you eventually.  The smart ones learn and the stupid ones do not.  It has nothing to do with their level of education.  Professors could care less if you are successful, in school or after graduation.  Quite frankly, it’s not their problem.  College is about discipline, determination, and hard work.  Contrary to what you espouse, it’s not given to you! I never said it was given to anyone. You swallow so much BS following the curriculum in universities you no longer know yourself. You learn to reflect back what is needed to survive. “If that is the best our institutions of higher learning can do, then the US is in a decline that will not stop in our lifetimes.” Institutions of higher learning sell a product.  You PAY for the education you are seeking.  NOTHING is owed you, me or anyone else.  It’s up to the individual to learn and be successful.  Universities are full of Klinton loving Socialist professors.  They spout that diatribe all the time.  The individual student has to be able to sort through the lies and get to what is the real crux of what is being presented.  There is more to studying than going to class.   Just like in real life, you have to cooperate to graduate. There is great comfort in finger pointing.  When you always have an alibi, you’re never wrong.  Just remember, when you point a finger, there are three pointing back at YOU.  I believe in personal accountability.  That comes from core values, taught by your parents and family. My values were learned at the end of a shovel and hammer. My degrees were much easier than continuing in the work place. From works sites such as Tinker, GM, the oil field... Unlike a government job, in those positions, if you didn't perform, you didn't stay! My background comes from having to perform to survive and prosper, not from a  degree or membership in a fraternal organization. You're not still mad about not being selected for a job over in 3001 are you?  If you want to work for us, keep applying... Nope, I quit applying for government jobs right after that. I was good enough to considered for a GS15 but NOT good enough for a GS11 subordinate to that same GS15 position. I make better money working for myself WHEN I want too. And my last employment was in a fairly high government position. I didn't like seeing the massive incompetence I saw. You don't want to hear that story, I'm sure. . And the subject for this thread was educational bureaucracy not all of the government bureaucracy. Yes, I am bitter when I hear things like what has happened to young children like Ndenway's relative. Our children are our future. I have been extremely involved with children over the years, up to and including fishing camps for LD students. I want only the best for these children. The educational bureaucrats are a detriment and not an aid for these children.

Quoted: There is no luck or destiny, you make your own way and should be held accountable for the decisions you make. ..

The problem in this thread is WHO are we going to blame for sub par performance? The child in the school or the administrators who gloss over the problem and deny its existance?

101st -  You jumping into the fray because of your education shows you have a sense of superiority due to your masters. It's that goatskin fraternal attitude that I find offensive.
It ISN"T  the kid's fault, it ISN"T the parents, IT DOES belong to the school administrator.
And his appointment to that position will be based entirely on a legislative mandate from the State requiring he have a Master's Degree or EdD. Which if under criticism, will be the first defense raised. That sucks!

Quoted: .... Sorry to hijack the thread.  I just get tired of folks pointing fingers at others for their problems.   ...

BTT  just to be contrary!

"ACman, it comes from someone with a doctorate that thinks they are entitled to $150K a year because they are "professional" and have a disdain for those with grease on their shirts or hands.
Because they get "dirty" they are only worth a little more than minimum wage.
That is the attitude they give to kids in grade school, high school, and in college. As a result, the working poor as a group is getting larger by the day.
The head of the NEA, wears a $25,000 Rolex, flies in a private jet all across the US.
When they have seminars or meetings, prime rib, shrimp, champagne are standard fare.
The head of the OEA has his wife listed as an employeee of the OEA yet she is never there.
He makes $75K a year, drives a $60K Land Rover, and lives in a $800K mansion near downtown OKC.
Both of them are ripping the public off big time!
And they represent the "professional bureaucrats" in education in this country!"

I know lots of people with Doctoral degrees who make a lot less than 150k.  So what if they do?  What's that to you?  So are you the official jewelry appraiser for the NEA?  How do you know the value of his watch?  So what if the guy spends his money on cars and houses?  It's putting $$$ into the Oklahoma economy.  If you want the job, apply for it...

Quoted: I know lots of people with Doctoral degrees who make a lot less than 150k.  So what if they do?  What's that to you?  So are you the official jewelry appraiser for the NEA?  How do you know the value of his watch?  So what if the guy spends his money on cars and houses?  It's putting $$$ into the Oklahoma economy.  If you want the job, apply for it...

101st, I have no problem with people that EARN their money. I do have a problem with non-performers leading others that scam tax payers' money.
The audits required on the credit cards issued to educational administrators haven't been done in years in this state. The money is not accounted for and goes places that you wouldn't believe.
I have friends in higher education that are appalled as I am. But you don't question the ethics of the big boys or your ass is down the road. Lawton's school system ghost employees is only the tip of the iceberg.
An example, Francis Tuttle CareerTech spends $1.1 million a year in instructor's salaries. And $2.4 million in administrative salaries. They just spent over $8 million building a Construction Center down on Reno and Rockwell. They offer brick laying and cabinet making along with Cosmetology in that facility. That is about the extent of what they offer.  No licensed trades such as electrician or HVAC, just a "Construction Academy" that teaches the students the difference between a brick and 2x4.
Your tax money and mine! Run by doctorates that are very adept in telling  us what a good job they are doing!
We have a shortage of Linesmen in this state -  especially in the REAs. The DOL Bureau of Apprenticeship and Training tried to get a program started with the local colleges.
OSU-OKC wanted a M.Ed, with a Commercial Driver's License, HazMat ceritification, a strong background in large equipment operation, 5 years of actually climbing poles, etc. etc.
Fairly unrealistic expectations for a program head. I'm sure they have lowered their requirements. I believe they had no idea of what it was going to take to accomplish the task.
I was recently offered the dept head at a small local college to head a new BS program. What they expected and what they were willing to fund to accomplish that task was unrealistic and not possible. I'm sure they will find someone to do the job, screw over students with their promo and no resulting jobs for the students.
Our state CareerTech couldn't start a linesman program up even though they had one 20 years ago. Nobody in administration had any idea of what it took, so they said "it wasn't needed"! We're talking about our basic infrastructure not being supported by an agency being paid to do just that.
I don't know if you are a native Okie, but the problem is critical in the long run for our state's economy. It will affect your life and our children's life in the near future.
The lack of skilled trades at Tinker AFB is not being solved even though there is a lot of hoopla about what is being done to prepare a future work force.
The situation does not look good with our "professional administrators:" in charge.
Ndenway's nephew situation upsets me. My circle of friends includes several LD teachers in grade schools. They are some of the finest people I know. The nightmare stories that have related to me scares me a great deal. And what I have seen first hand in technical training and the higher educational institutions has destroyed my faith in those institutions, much less what our little ones go through.
Yeah, I'm pretty frustrated. The future looks pretty dim. There will be a reckoning and it is not going to be pretty. And ALL of us will suffer directly and indirectly.

Well, I'm sure you opinion of whether or not people earn their pay checks goes a long way out in the world.  If things in the Lawton school system piss you off so much, move down there and run for the School Board!  All I hear in this little entertaining diversion is a lot of bitching and no evidence of action to correct.  You have a solution for everything, so fix 'em.  

What is your degree(s) in?  In what department did you work on the OU faculty.  I know many professors at Norman, perhaps I was in your class.  If you ever had a student that vehimently argued the conservative position, it was probably me.  I didn't compromise my principals, agrued my cases and still graduated with honors.  Probably a carry over from the Airborne Infantry.  A war, 2 DMZ tours in Korea and 22 years isn't erased in a couple of semesters.  Those are vales earned under fire!  Have you been there?

Yeah I'm in management at Tinker.  I make a difference every day.  I started out, after I retired from the Army, making boxes to store and ship parts.  I got a BS in Business Administration on the GI Bill and a Masters of Public Administration on DLA's dime, all in addition to working full time.  I was able to move up because of a talent I have to form teams and produce results when no one else could get it across the finish line.  Not because of a Union, EEO or a patron.

You are going to end up a bitter man, if you're not already, believing every time someone gets a promotion or a degree that it is screwing someone else over somehow.  It's not a zero sum game here...

Quoted: You are going to end up a bitter man, if you're not already, believing every time someone gets a promotion or a degree that it is screwing someone else over somehow.  It's not a zero sum game here...

Yep, I'm bitter. I've tried bucking do-nothing management, been applauded and recognized for achievement and distinguished service, and yet nothing changed. Except my students knew the material I taught was directly applicable to their jobs.
If I preach and a few hear, then maybe somewhere down the road some good will come of it.
I've come from the old school - define the mission, give me the materials, tools, and manpower to do the job, then get out of my way. I WILL BE SUCCESSFUL and the results will be obviousand postiive.
That attitude is dangerous and unacceptable in this state's educational facilitites.
The issue here is the administration of education in this state.
Do me a favor, pick up Francis Tuttle Technical Center current catalog. It will have 59 pages of classes like Culinary Arts, Neurolinguistic Training, etc and a half page of technical courses.
Construction Safety, Bicycle Service and Maintenance, Ceramic Tile Setting, and Furniture Making. From a so-called TECHNICAL CENTER!
It is exemplary of educational  institutions in this state.
I've said this before and will say it again. The fraternal order of goatskins think they know what is good for the unwashed masses. Because you have a masters or doctorate doesn''t  mean you are an effective administrator or adequate performer in your job. Too many are very glib in glossing over their failures or collective failures.
And don't say you didn't get where you are at on your own merits. I've a strong suspicion you have taken the road east. Not that I condemn you for it, I'm proud of you for doing so.
But the military and government is rife with ringknockers. You know what I am talking about!
Again, your job is not the issue. Education and the way it is run is this state is!

Still waiting for you to answer the questions...

I have no clue what this thread is about. too much talkin goin on in it......I just wanted to post here is all to help my post count.

Quoted: I have no clue what this thread is about. too much talkin goin on in it......I just wanted to post here is all to help my post count.

What thread?

Quoted: Quoted: I have no clue what this thread is about. too much talkin goin on in it......I just wanted to post here is all to help my post count. What thread?

I donno, I've had a couple of drinks tonight.....

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I have no clue what this thread is about. too much talkin goin on in it......I just wanted to post here is all to help my post count. What thread? I donno, I've had a couple of drinks tonight.....

What are you drinking?  I am drinking Jack in a whiskey glass at room temp along with a glass of water  me likey

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I have no clue what this thread is about. too much talkin goin on in it......I just wanted to post here is all to help my post count. What thread? I donno, I've had a couple of drinks tonight.....

I've had a few  MGDs and some JD to chase it myself, gotta go to the house and do laundry at some point in time.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I have no clue what this thread is about. too much talkin goin on in it......I just wanted to post here is all to help my post count. What thread? I donno, I've had a couple of drinks tonight..... I've had a few  MGDs and some JD to chase it myself, gotta go to the house and do laundry at some point in time.

haha,  you chased your beer with whiskey?   dont you know its supposed to be whiskey before beer?

Quoted: haha,  you chased your beer with whiskey?   dont you know its supposed to be whiskey before beer?

yeah, this beer taste really old, I found it in the shed this afternoon, don't know how long its been in there but it was really cold, the JD cuts the taste.

Save the bottles, they make good targets.

Quoted: Save the bottles, they make good targets.

their cans, they still make good targets though.

Quoted: Quoted: Save the bottles, they make good targets. their cans, they still make good targets though.

Yeah, and semi reuseable compared to bottles, hehe.

Quoted: Still waiting for you to answer the questions...

CCE was my last department at OU.
As far as my military service - the closest I came was a presidential appointment to Annapolis that my father encouraged me NOT to pursue, so it is not even a consideration. I listened to Dad - his being in WWII, Korea, and Viet Nam carried enough weight that I had to listen!
I respect all veterans - but some more than others.
If you want to get into academic credentials - I'm not going to play that game. Because  that is a pretentious claim to superiority that I despise and is EXACTLY why our educational system is so wasteful and problematic to our country's welfare.
Because I do not recognize a goatskin as the final authority, nor do I want to play "my diploma is better than yours", I do not intend to diminish your accomplishments. But neither will I bow before a piece of paper as the final or ultimate authority. If your people tell me you are a great boss, I would be greatly pleased to hear that. There are way too few in public service.
We had dinner tonight at Charlestons with some old friends. The wife is an instructor at a Putnam City high school teaching mathmatics. She is not a happy camper but does her best with the hindrances adminintration places before her. I didn't bring up the subject, she did. I kept my mouth shut and slowly steamed listening. I made one simple statement  - This country is screwed because of the way public schools are administered. She agreed whole heartedly and we went on to more pleasant and optomistic subjects.
But in my opinion and MANY OTHERS, the educational administration in this state is PISS POOR!
And glossing over the problem and/or denying it only allows it to get worse!
What has happened to Ndenway's nephew is a DISGRACEFUL SHAME!
If you can't see that with your bachelor and masters diploma, that is another indication our educational system is a massive failure.
Rant mode off!