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Posted: 3/9/2006 3:51:32 PM EDT
Are these legal in VA? I've been reading over Va Code 18-308 and if I'm reading correctly(which I'm not sure) I could carry a spring stick if I have a concel carry permit.

Am I right or am I looking at a misdemeanor charge if I were to have one?
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 4:09:01 PM EDT
CHP is good for handguns only.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 4:30:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/9/2006 4:31:35 PM EDT by DragoMuseveni]
Well that sucks.

Would a non spring loaded expanding baton be a loophole or are they illegal too? I can't find anything in the code.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 7:57:09 PM EDT
An asp should be fine. I have heard of a few people who carry those. None have been stopped by the police though. I carried one for a while myself long before I had my CCW. From what I have seen with the prosicutions of 18.2-308 if it isnt specifically NAMED in the code they dont go for it. Mainly this is handguns. I personally saw a case with a combination knife with nuckle dropped because knife is not in there in that form. Only dagger and bowie knife.

Remember also that an ASP is a form of deadly force if not applied correctly. You take a swing at someones head you are likely to go to jail or get shot. Have you considered pepper spray?
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 8:28:56 PM EDT
Man, options for personal protection are appear to be limited. Either be unarmed or carry a concealed gun(I'm in the process of getting my permti) but you can only draw your gun if the situation is bad enough that you need to kill the attacker(and you pretty much have to, because the threat of deadly force is not legal in VA ).

There has to be a middle option for personal protection.
No, I have not considered pepper spray(at least not yet)
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 5:21:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DragoMuseveni:
Man, options for personal protection are appear to be limited. Either be unarmed or carry a concealed gun(I'm in the process of getting my permti) but you can only draw your gun if the situation is bad enough that you need to kill the attacker(and you pretty much have to, because the threat of deadly force is not legal in VA ).

There has to be a middle option for personal protection.
No, I have not considered pepper spray(at least not yet)



Reasonable articulation is your friend.

Link Posted: 3/10/2006 6:38:27 AM EDT
Consider OC for a middle level of force. You can in most cases use it before placing your hands on someone. Look at a powerfull spray like Vexor. A lot of the comercial sprays are either too weak or their stream is too thin. The same is true with many of the older police sprays. For example, my wifes mom sent her and I tried a little of it. Not only did it suffer from a very thin stream but it wasnt that powerfull. The stuff I was sprayed with is very strong. The stuff will at minimum make them close their eyes for long enough to ground them or run away. That being said I have never seen that. Most everyone closes their eyes and begins to internalize and even after it being washed off it takes a while for the oils that are in the eyes to be washed out with tears, dry, and the person to be able to see again.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 3:05:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hydguy:

Originally Posted By DragoMuseveni:
Man, options for personal protection are appear to be limited. Either be unarmed or carry a concealed gun(I'm in the process of getting my permti) but you can only draw your gun if the situation is bad enough that you need to kill the attacker(and you pretty much have to, because the threat of deadly force is not legal in VA ).

There has to be a middle option for personal protection.
No, I have not considered pepper spray(at least not yet)



Reasonable articulation is your friend.





At the CC class I took, the instructor said if your in a situation and pull your fire and and do not shoot you run the risk of being charged with brandishing a firearm. Only pull out if you are going to shoot and only shoot if your life is in danger and you have no way to escape. He also stated that shooting any where other than center mass is consided malicious wounding.

Link Posted: 3/10/2006 4:58:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DragoMuseveni:

Originally Posted By Hydguy:

Originally Posted By DragoMuseveni:
Man, options for personal protection are appear to be limited. Either be unarmed or carry a concealed gun(I'm in the process of getting my permti) but you can only draw your gun if the situation is bad enough that you need to kill the attacker(and you pretty much have to, because the threat of deadly force is not legal in VA ).

There has to be a middle option for personal protection.
No, I have not considered pepper spray(at least not yet)



Reasonable articulation is your friend.





At the CC class I took, the instructor said if your in a situation and pull your fire and and do not shoot you run the risk of being charged with brandishing a firearm. Only pull out if you are going to shoot and only shoot if your life is in danger and you have no way to escape. He also stated that shooting any where other than center mass is consided malicious wounding.




And he is right.... As I said: REASONABLE ARTICULATION IS YOUR FRIEND.

I'm not a lawyer, so this isn't legal advice:

If you pull your firearm, be prepared to use it. If you feel that you could explain your actions, and that a REASONABLE PERSON WOULD ACCEPT THOSE ACTIONS, then you should be okay.

Feeling threatened can mean 2 different things to two different people. There is a thread about someone being charged with nbrandishing. Read his thoughts on his course of action, and see how YOU think about it.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 11:25:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DragoMuseveni:
... the instructor said if your in a situation and pull your fire and and do not shoot you run the risk of being charged with brandishing a firearm. ...


Which is not to say if you draw your fiream, you are obligated to fire it.

Things could change between to time you decide to draw and the actual presentation of the fiream.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 2:42:30 AM EDT
I had a situation in richmond back in 03 that was similart to this example. I was getting in my car in the parking lot of lowes or whatever that hardware store is when I was approached by a guy pushing a bike. He proceeded to explain to me how he had just moved down from DC and how he didnt have any money. The he proceeded to lean the bike up against him while he was talking and begin to talk faster when he said "to make a long story short, I dotn have any money, I dont have anything, all I have is this" and he reached quickly into his front pocket of his coat where he had a buldge. Well I got to my sidearm first and it scared the hell out of him. He let go of whatever was in there and put his hands in the air before I could even draw it. He then proceeded to say "I wasnt going to rob you" and I was like, "I know you wernt" he then asked for glove compartment change I think this time hopeing I would turn my back to him or something. I said something like no or something to that effect and he was like "nevermind man" and hurried off.

Thinking back I feel I would have been justified had I drew it but I didnt need too. Had anything black or silver come out of his pocket that resembled a weapon come out I would have had very little time to either fire or get offed. In 20/20 hind site I should have called the police right away afterward. Remember, whoever calls first gets to be the victim. In this case, this person probably was a criminal so he did not call the police. After all he was carrying something and I am sure he didnt have a permit for it.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 9:04:50 AM EDT
Back to the original question of this post.
Are non-spring loaded telescopic batons legal in VA? The only thing I've could find in the code refers to "spring sitcks"
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 7:22:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/12/2006 7:50:28 PM EDT by Dan01]

Some states do issue a Concealed Weapons Permit that may cover other concealed weapons but
if you look at the Virginia permit it states that it is a "Permit to Carry a Concealed Handgun".



If I'm reading VA code 18-308 right it's only against the law to carry the weapons mentioned concealed (off of your property), there may be something else prohibiting their possession.
Looks like they can be carried if not concealed just like wearing a handgun in plain sight.

Link Posted: 3/12/2006 8:10:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dan01:
Some states do issue a Concealed Weapons Permit that may cover other concealed weapons but
if you look at the Virginia permit it states that it is a "Permit to Carry a Concealed Handgun".

If I'm reading VA code 18-308 right it's only against the law to carry the weapons mentioned concealed (off of your property), there may be something else prohibiting their possession.
Looks like they can be carried if not concealed just like wearing a handgun in plain sight.





But that code only mentions "spring sticks". Also I'd think even if I "open carried" a spring stick it would still be considered conceled because it's ture form is hidden while collasped.
"For the purpose of this section, a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature. "


Now I'm not looking into getting a spring stick. What I am considering is a ASP baton which is expanable but is not spring loaded. The part of the code that leave unknow legality wise is

"(v) any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection"


Who should I contact to get a better anwser regarding the legalities here?
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 6:49:34 AM EDT
Would consider a CA in your area. It is also important to note that until last year a machetti was not illegal to carry concealed due to it not being explicitly outlined in the code (is now due to the ms13 issue). This is the same as having a pocket knife concealed and a switch blade concealed. Because you have a pocket knife doesnt make it like a switch blade even though it doesnt have a spring.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 3:05:36 PM EDT
I emailed my local CA regarding this, here was his response

Thank you for your inquiry. The Virginia Code section you cited is the correct one regarding concealed weapons. While the code does not specifically mention the manual telescoping baton, or "asp" baton, it is my opinion based on my research that it would indeed be considered a concealed weapon under section 18.2-308. As you correctly pointed out,the code does define a "spring stick", which is a "spring-loaded metal stick activated by pushing a button which rapidly and forcefully telescopes the weapon to
several times its original length." While the "asp" baton is not
spring-loaded, the code contains a provision for "any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection." The only discernible difference, then, between the telescoping baton and the spring stick would seem to be the mechanism by which the baton would telescope. Looking at the case law, the Virginia courts have held that this "catch-all" provision is not
overbroad. Another interesting note in the case law applies to the
section of the code that states "a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature." By its construction, the telescoping baton, clearly would be considered "of such deceptive appearance as to disguise (it's) true nature." The Virginia courts have also addressed this portion of the statute and affirmed cases based on this
provision. The Supreme Court of Virginia has further said that "the
purpose of the statute (18.2-308) was to interdict the practice of carrying a deadly weapon about the person, concealed, and yet accessible as to
afford prompt and immediate use." Based on all of the above reasoning,
it is my opinion that the telescoping baton would be considered a concealed weapon under section 18.2-308.




I then replied asking of a CHP would change this, here was that response

The matter of concealed weapons permits is controlled by the City Code in each jurisdiction. In Virginia Beach, the applicable City Code section is 38-1. It mirrors the State Code for the most part, as far as definitions and such, but there is a section (b) which states that section (a) (which deals with the range of weapons we discussed
before) doesn't apply if one has a concealed weapons permit. In my opinion, one could conceivably get a concealed weapons permit for an ASP baton under the city code, although I've never heard of someone applying
for a permit for anything other than a hangun. A better resource might be
the City Attorney's office or the Circuit Court Clerk's office, since they process these applications and the judges approve them.


It seems that Va Beach is the only city which section A does not apply with a CHP.

Link Posted: 3/29/2006 5:54:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/30/2006 4:21:05 AM EDT by Stormcrow190]
If you want something to defend yourself you could buy a sturdy fiberglass cane or walking stick.

I remeber an old Navy SEAL telling about watching a man in his late 50s beat off 3 teen aged "punks" who meant to "borrow" his wallet with a old hickory walking cane.

Never heard of a law prohibbiting a cane and you definity are not concealing it and even if you have to use it, it is still just a stick and lets face there is little that is decepitive about a stick.

The only reason I mention it is that I use a sorting pole to force 500-700lbs calves up ramps into dark trailers. If you ever try it use a stick because they won't willing go up that ramp on their own but if you smack their flanks abit they are more interested in getting away from you than figuring out where they are going.

And lets face most people who want to cause trouble are cowards and it generally takes only a show of force to relieve them of most hostile intentions. If that stick works an animal with an inch of leather on their backs imagine how it would work on a hoodlum wearing a teeshirt with a 3-6" knife
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 9:01:30 AM EDT
Cold Steel sells a cane that is a mirror image of their sword cane model, minus sword, it is 11 layers of wrapped fiberglass for the cane, topped by like a 10oz. milled stainless steel head, needless to say, it is indestructible and would be a devastating force if you used it to tdefend yourself. i used one for awhile because of an injury overseas... and i figured if i ever had to beat the everloving shit outta someone for trying to rob me, i'd be a disabled vet who was clearly in defense of himself.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 9:59:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/29/2006 10:03:04 AM EDT by larrycwdc]

Originally Posted By DragoMuseveni:
I emailed my local CA regarding this, here was his response

Thank you for your inquiry. The Virginia Code section you cited is the correct one regarding concealed weapons. While the code does not specifically mention the manual telescoping baton, or "asp" baton, it is my opinion based on my research that it would indeed be considered a concealed weapon under section 18.2-308. As you correctly pointed out,the code does define a "spring stick", which is a "spring-loaded metal stick activated by pushing a button which rapidly and forcefully telescopes the weapon to
several times its original length." While the "asp" baton is not
spring-loaded, the code contains a provision for "any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection." The only discernible difference, then, between the telescoping baton and the spring stick would seem to be the mechanism by which the baton would telescope. Looking at the case law, the Virginia courts have held that this "catch-all" provision is not
overbroad. Another interesting note in the case law applies to the
section of the code that states "a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature." By its construction, the telescoping baton, clearly would be considered "of such deceptive appearance as to disguise (it's) true nature." The Virginia courts have also addressed this portion of the statute and affirmed cases based on this
provision. The Supreme Court of Virginia has further said that "the
purpose of the statute (18.2-308) was to interdict the practice of carrying a deadly weapon about the person, concealed, and yet accessible as to
afford prompt and immediate use." Based on all of the above reasoning,
it is my opinion that the telescoping baton would be considered a concealed weapon under section 18.2-308.



Thank you for this information! If he/she is comfortable with the publication of the information, would you provide the name of this individual, and his/her actual status (e.g., the Commonwealth Attorney -- Harvey L. Bryant, Commonwealth’s Attorney, City of Virginia Beach -- or Prudence K. Juris, Deputy Commonwealth's Attorney, etc.)?

The situation in this Commonwealth Attorney's jurisdiction (presumably the City of Virginia Beach) appears to indicate that if one were to be arrested and charged with carrying an ASP, that the only charges that could be filed would be based on the 18.2-308 provision(s) for "any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection," or "of such deceptive appearance as to disguise (it's) true nature." The most important message I read into this information is that your initial conclusion about the applicable code section (articulated here in the past as well) has been validated. And this is valuable information.

The balance of the CA's response (other than the VB-specific stuff which I've chosen to ignore in this post) is in the realm of 'what if,' and not in the realm of 'what will be.' I'll note that my opinion is just a personal opinion unbuttressed by any legal scholarship. If arrested and charged under this provision, the CA would have to establish the validity of the charge (as a matter of law) in Court. This could be problematic. The recent addition of a machete to listed, prohibited weapons took place for a reason ... otherwise the previous wording would have been adequate for use.

I'll also note that by this CA's logic, all spring-assisted knives (like the Kershaws in many of our pockets) could be interpreted as being switchblades. Similarly, a plier-looking multi-tool containing a knife blade could be interpreted as being unlawful. As such, I believe the logic used by the Commonwealth Attorney is fallacious ... but that doesn't mean I'm going to carry an ASP in Virginia Beach to try to prove my point. All the more so after learning this opinion. As related in a Monty Python bit, "A nod's as good as a wink to a blind man." But that doesn't mean I'll be relegating my Kershaw to a desk drawer prior to my next trip to VB.

I'll note further that a CA's opinion (especially when one asks also the likelihood of charges being filed pursuant to an arrest -- with specific characteristics -- based on 'grey' legal areas) is valuable. I suspect that they apprise each other informally about information disseminated like you received, DragoMuseveni. The response is hardly an authoritative determination that carrying an ASP is, in and of itself, unlawful in the Commonwealth. The Commonwealth's Attorney General (AG) is the source of authoritative information, as summarized here:


The Attorney General is a constitutional officer who is elected at the same time and for the same term as the Governor. As Chief Executive Officer of the Commonwealth's Department of Law, the Attorney General " shall give his advice and render official advisory opinions in writing only when requested in writing so to do by one of the following:

the Governor; a member of the General Assembly; a judge of a court of record or a judge of a court not of record; the State Corporation Commission; an attorney for the Commonwealth; a county attorney in those counties in which such office has been created; a clerk of a court of record; a city or county sheriff; a city or county treasurer or similar officer; a commissioner of the revenue or similar officer; chairman or secretary of an electoral board; the head of a state department, division, bureau, institution, or board."


Again, THANKS for the information!
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 7:09:48 PM EDT
I was dealing with a Senior Assistant Commonwealth Attorney in Va Beach. I haven't asked if I could publish his/her name so I'm not going to.

As far as me carrying a cane or walking stick, while it is a good ideal and it has crossed my mind, I don't think it would work. I'm 23 and good shape. People will suspect and question it. I think more so than any concealed asp baton or handgun(if it's concealed the masses won't know)

I'm going to apply for my CHP this week, while I'm there I do intent to ask around for further clarification on this whole issue. If it turns out I can not carry a baton at all under any circumstances, I'll just carry my gun(one my CHP is approved) and some pepper spray as I've been planning on doing from the get go. I just like to have options and the baton would have been just one more.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 10:21:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/29/2006 10:27:25 PM EDT by Spade]

Originally Posted By DragoMuseveni:
As far as me carrying a cane or walking stick, while it is a good ideal and it has crossed my mind, I don't think it would work. I'm 23 and good shape. People will suspect and question it. I think more so than any concealed asp baton or handgun(if it's concealed the masses won't know)



Once knew a guy who carried a blackthorn shillelagh. Couple years back, and I'm 23 now as well. He never got any major odd looks about it (you see weirder as an undergrad), and he used it because he thought it was cool, old fashioned, and gentlemanly (and Irish).

Of course, if you hit somebody with the knot end, you can do major damage (more if you can get a "loaded" one filled with lead, but I've only heard tell of them, never seen one).

I've thought about getting one for on campus since I'm always out late. Hey, it's just a walking stick.

Note: Shillelagh is a walking stick. The short looking thing is just a cudgel.
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