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Posted: 2/16/2006 4:42:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2006 4:48:16 AM EDT by chapperjoe]
Until I get a transcript of what he said (which was unbelievable) here's his written statement entered into record.... Brace yourself.


{other info available here: judiciary.house.gov/oversight.aspx?ID=214 I've requested a transcript though}



Testimony of John White, The GunSmith, before the House Judiciary Committee’s Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security on the Operations of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (BATFE) at the Richmond Area Gun Shows


February 15, 2006
4:00 PM
Room 2141
Rayburn House Office Building

Dear Committee Members,

At the Gunsmith, we are fortunate that our livelihood does not depend on gun sales. Our sales philosophy is not to sell at all costs but to provide a quality product for gun collectors, for self-protection and for competition shooters. Typically, the cost of the products we sell prevents our firearms from being attractive to individuals intending to make illegal or illicit purchases. We also spend time talking with our customers about their reasons for purchasing a firearm to make sure that the firearm we sell will suit the intended purchase, ensure they understand how to safely handle their firearm and to offer opportunity for further customization. We rely on repeat business and referrals because we normally cannot compete on price with larger gun dealers who can buy in quantity. What we can offer is quality, a guarantee that what we sell works and the extra customer service that a trained firearms instructor and experienced gunsmith can offer.

We know well the danger of firearms and that the lives we save by not selling for illegal purposes may be our families or our many friends in law enforcement agencies across the country. In 2004, our son was confronted by a burglar in his Richmond rental home. The burglar held in his hand what we think he imagined was a gun that he was stealing from our son’s room. What he actually had was a customized paintball gun. Our son chased the burglar until the guidance he received from his many law enforcement relatives kicked in and he stopped and called the Richmond Police Department. Ironically, the first two officers to respond had been co-workers of his parents when they worked at the Richmond Police Department. The officers had seen our son’s early years and were now responding to protect him as an adult. Preventing the illegal use of firearms and criminal activity, especially in the Richmond area, is always personal to The GunSmith.

The GunSmith is owned and operated by two former police officers who value the participation of the ATF in preventing firearms from getting into the hands of criminals. We value the ATF being available to us at the gun shows to quickly answer any firearms law questions that come up at the show. We appreciate the ability to have access to the ATF at the shows to point out suspicious situations as they arise so that these situations can be immediately and appropriately investigated. We have personally enjoyed the benefits of the ATF presence at the gun shows because prior to the strong ATF presence there was a large gang presence at the shows in Richmond. A fellow dealer, with whom we work closely, had two guns stolen as his attention was deliberately distracted with a mock word battle between gang members. Our lives were also threatened by an unhappy customer who threatened that he was “going to get his posse and come back for us.” These open displays of gang activity have largely ceased as word has gotten out of the strong ATF presence at the Richmond Gun Shows. We applaud the efforts and intent of the ATF program at the gun shows in the Richmond area and would agree that they could serve as models for other similar programs with a few exceptions.

Early activity at the gun shows was entirely appropriate and within the law, however, it appeared that as time went on, the ATF was joined by personnel from other law enforcement agencies who were outside their span of control. As more resources were added, both financial and personnel, the mission and activities seemed to continually expand to try to keep everyone busy. For example, in the early gun shows, the ATF would observe and interview when activity seemed suspicious. Then home checks were added as more local officers participated with the ATF. Then instead of just address verifications, our customers told us that the officers would interview neighbors and family members about how they felt about this person buying a gun.

Computerized criminal history check wait times went from 20 minutes to 2-4 hours to overnight or longer. There was a clear pattern that checks on Richmond area gun buyers received the longer wait times while purchasers from out of the area were cleared much more quickly. Yes, sometimes sales were lost because of the long waits and even more sales were lost when neighbors and family members were informed of the buyer’s intentions. Our income, fortunately, isn’t dependent on gun sales but most of our customers know that we are involved with law enforcement and wanted us to explain why their legal behavior was being reported to their neighbors and family members creating unwanted attention and difficulties.

Our customers questioned the fact that they were subjected to the additional scrutiny and address verification procedures only at gun shows when they could make the same purchase at a gun shop without the additional attention. This might seem reasonable if there was additional probable cause but it is hard to justify when we were making sales to Richmond Police Officers, Federal Prison Guards, US Marshals, military personnel home on leave, local judges, etc. who unfortunately seemed to share one additional characteristic, their ethnicity.

We don’t know if the ATF was ever aware of this circumstance but due to the backlogs created by these long waits, many dealers began calling in criminal history checks rather than delivering the paperwork to the on-site State Police personnel. Called-in checks had a much shorter wait time and quickly became the preferred method with many dealers.

We and most of the licensed dealers would much rather be able to work with the ATF than be forced to work around the more unreasonable methods. We would like to see the cooperative relationship with the ATF on criminal history checks and address verifications restored because there is no advantage for any licensed dealer to make an illicit sale. Licensed dealers are subject to additional scrutiny by the ATF both at the shows and at their place of business. An improper sale means a loss of income while a licensed dealer does the mandatory ATF firearms trace and spends time in court testifying because of the improper use of a sold firearm.

We would also like to see the inordinate attention on purchasers of firearms who happen to be female stopped. Times have changed and the world has changed. As more women have become head of households, entered law enforcement and the military and learned of their many advantages as competition shooters, more women are interested in firearms for the same reason as male purchasers. Unfortunately, many women are not very knowledgeable about firearms and The Gunsmith is somewhat rare at the show because we will take the time to talk to people and counsel them about their firearm choices whether or not they make a purchase from us. Not all women, however, know that we provide this service and rely on others to help them make the best choice and not get taken on price. This is no different than a woman taking a friend to buy a car or get car repairs on any other activity for which they are unsure of their expertise or believe they will be treated more fairly if they are there with a man. The truth is that not just women buy firearms for more than they are worth at a gun show. Gun shows are a business operation and caveat emptor applies. It seems, however, to be the prevailing opinion for law enforcement at the gun show that any woman who brings a male friend for advice or support must be making a straw purchase.

This probably was happening more often when the ATF first began attending the gun shows but the ATF must have missed how successful they have been in shutting down this practice by their presence. The “profile” has continued long after the problem, for the most part, has gone. For the Richmond Raceway Show that sparked this hearing, the problem was magnified by the fact that, on Sunday, there were probably almost as many law enforcement officers as customers at the show. If a woman approached a gun table, she was quickly surrounded by undercover officers closely observing her every move. A women was almost guaranteed to rate an interview if she actually purchased or attempted to purchase a gun at that show on Sunday.

Our observation was that there seemed to be a large group of very young, relatively inexperienced and very energetic law enforcement officers at this show on Sunday who wanted to make a good showing for their supervisors. Having supervised young, enthusiastic officers, we know that, although their intent is good, sometimes when they have too many resources and too much undesignated time, they tend to create things to do and often deviate from action plans. Our impression that this was the case on this fateful August Sunday is further supported by the fact that, according to the information that we received, records and notes from their temporary office at the show were left in a trashcan. Experienced officers would have been far too paranoid to leave records behind and far more polished and discreet in their observation skills. It seemed that on this one day, there was plenty of youthful energy and enthusiasm but adult supervision at the show was lacking.

That being said, we think it would be a mistake to remove the ATF presence from the gun shows especially over this one lapse. We do not want to return to the days where gangs felt free to mingle with legitimate purchasers and we credit the ATF with bringing the current business atmosphere to the shows in the Richmond area.

What we would specifically recommend is:

• A detailed action plan for the ATF at each show and a clearer division of labor for outside agencies so that the ATF is not held accountable for the actions of officers over whom they have no control. This action plan should include that an experienced supervising agent is always present at the show.

• There should be more scrutiny and more attention given to the parking lots at these gun shows where many gun transactions take place outside the scrutiny of the gun show and without any criminal history check or address verification requirement.

• There should be greater scrutiny of “private collection” dealers within the show who do not have a firearms dealer license. These dealers are also exempt from the criminal history or address verification requirement for their sales and these “private collection” dealers often have suspiciously large revolving stock for a true private collection. Any thinking criminal or straw purchaser is going to buy a gun in the parking lot or from these dealers and avoid the issue of criminal history checks and address verification all together.

• All the law enforcement agencies should respect the rights and privacy of the majority of customers who are at gun shows for honest purposes. Honest citizens should not be punished for the actions of the few. There should be greater attention paid to enforcing the law without abridging the rights of the many legitimate attendees at the gun show.

We know that what we are suggesting are more difficult investigations and cases to pursue but since the ATF has been so successful in eliminating most of the obvious violations from the shows and has access to additional resources and outside agencies willing to help, this would be a major step forward in shutting down any illicit gun sales and purchases occurring at the gun shows and we would greatly appreciate and support their efforts. We look forward to the continuing presence of the ATF at the gun shows and our continued mutual support.

John H. White, II
The GunSmith

John H. White, II
Co-Owner of The GunSmith
235 Vel-Mar Lane
Lyndhurst, VA 22952

Education:

Law Enforcement Certification, October 1980
Central Shenandoah Criminal Justice Training Center, Weyers Cave, VA

NRA Police Firearms Instructor School, August 1981

Secret Service Firearms Instructor Certification, 1987

Certified Armorer for Beretta, Colt, Glock, H&K, Ruger, Sig Sauer and Smith and Wesson Firearms

Experience:

Sergeant, (January 1992- Retired 2005), Albemarle County Police Department Patrol and Investigations Divisions, Charlottesville, VA

Police Officer, (July 1984 – January 1992), Albemarle County Police Department, Charlottesville, VA

Special Deputy U S Marshall, (1985 – 1987), Federal Organized Crime Drug Enforcement Task Force

Deputy, (June 1983 – July 1984), Albemarle County Sheriff’s Office, Charlottesville, VA

Deputy, (July 1980 – May 1988), Fluvanna County Sheriff’s Office, Fluvanna, VA

Police Officer, (May 1978 – July 1980), Lake Monticello Police Department, Fluvanna, VA

Elizabeth B. White
Co-Owner of The GunSmith
235 Vel-Mar Lane
Lyndhurst, VA 22952

Education:
Bachelor of Arts (Magna cum Laude), December 1982
Virginia Commonwealth University, Richmond, VA
Major: Political Science

Law Enforcement Certification, January 1983
Richmond Bureau of Police Training Academy, Richmond, VA

Experience:

Commander of Administrative Services Division/Management Support Coordinator, (February 1999 – present), Albemarle County Police Department, Charlottesville, VA

Sergeant, (November 1991 – February 1999), Albemarle County Police Department, Charlottesville, VA

Police Officer, (July 1988 – November 1991), Albemarle County Police Department, Charlottesville, VA

Police Analyst/Officer, (January 1986 – May 1988), James City County Police Department, Williamsburg, VA

Police Officer, (July 1983 – August 1985), Richmond Bureau of Police, Richmond, VA

Link Posted: 2/16/2006 4:51:51 AM EDT
This is the kind of Judas (can a Jew use that word? ) that got rid of 'Saturday Night Specials' - really a code word for affordable guns and even more a code word for anti-minority ownership of guns. This guy was dripping with racism at the hearing, and placed his profits above the common good so he could feed his fat fuck face with more donuts while legislation he promotes gets another LEO and FFL behind it for the anti-gunners to use.

Link Posted: 2/16/2006 4:52:31 AM EDT
I'm gonna read this when I get back from Calculus. I'm looking forward to a lot of anger and a little bit of laughing.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 5:09:54 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 5:45:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2006 5:48:41 AM EDT by chapperjoe]

Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:
That wasn't as bad as I had expected. It mostly sounds like an add for his buisness, with some BS thrown in.



trying to get a transcript.

what he said was a lot worse.

he kinda only highlited the anti- parts of his wirtten statement, e.g.

• There should be more scrutiny and more attention given to the parking lots at these gun shows where many gun transactions take place outside the scrutiny of the gun show and without any criminal history check or address verification requirement.

• There should be greater scrutiny of “private collection” dealers within the show who do not have a firearms dealer license. These dealers are also exempt from the criminal history or address verification requirement for their sales and these “private collection” dealers often have suspiciously large revolving stock for a true private collection. Any thinking criminal or straw purchaser is going to buy a gun in the parking lot or from these dealers and avoid the issue of criminal history checks and address verification all together.



And how more ATF presence deters 'gangs' from shows I'll never know.

Link Posted: 2/16/2006 6:34:38 AM EDT
Judas is appropriate. Benedict Arnold would work as well.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 6:44:52 AM EDT
"• There should be more scrutiny and more attention given to the parking lots at these gun shows where many gun transactions take place outside the scrutiny of the gun show and without any criminal history check or address verification requirement."

These are called private transactions.
Sounds like he wants them outlawed.

With 'friends' like this we hardly need any enemies.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 6:49:49 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 6:50:22 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 6:52:58 AM EDT
What a tool....
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 8:29:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2006 8:30:33 AM EDT by hardcorps1775]
un-frigging-believable. i feel like i'm seeing the beginnings of a police state...and this is virginia! i can only imagine what it must be like in ny, kali, md...

ETA: you oughta put this in the gd.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 9:41:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2006 10:10:15 AM EDT by larrycwdc]

Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:
That wasn't as bad as I had expected. It mostly sounds like an add for his buisness, with some BS thrown in.


That said, his 'business' doesn't seem to be more than a sidelight ... perhaps because his neigbors don't want to do business with him. But maybe with his wife working as the Commander of Administrative Services Division/Management Support Coordinator, (since February 1999) with the Albemarle County Police Department, 'hobby' is a more apt appellation. She's no doubt bringing home 'the bacon' that supplements his retirement pay while he helps his fellow man.

What with John White's denigration of local PD resources not under the expert supervision of on-site BATFE assets, I hope his wife doesn't catch any grief. Of course, since she's managing admin services she's a little removed from the rank and file. It'd sure be funny to find out that Albemarle County, or other LE agency in the vicinity, was doing any business with The GunSmith. I'd sure worry about conflict of interest, perceived or otherwise, in such a case. It is ludicrous to even think that Albemarle County might be using The GunSmith as a service-provider ... but in such a case, and if this came to light because of John Smith's testimony, that'd be some karma, eh?

Checking here doesn't reveal a business listing for "The GunSmith" in Lyndhurst, Virginia. Similarly, looking here doesn't reveal a business listing for "The GunSmith" in Lyndhurst, Virginia.

Looking for the address of "The GunSmith" here reveals that google Maps doesn't have a record of Vel-Mar (or Velmar) Lane in Lyndhurst, Virginia. Likewise, Yahoo knows not of the street, with or without a dash, as shown here. Since John Smith's wife is still serving, maybe this is a made-up address ... although based on the other statements, it doesn't appear that addresses were required.

Can anyone provide information about this purported business?

Is there a way to provide such contextual information to the Committee after this testimonly?


As far as how Mr. White should be categorized, a fitting description would be Pétainist, as can be inferred from the biographical information here, that is excerpted in the following.


In April 1945, Pétain was returned to France, where he was tried for collaboration (or treason), convicted and sentenced to death by firing squad in July-August 1945. The sentence was commuted to life imprisonment by Charles de Gaulle on August 17, 1945, on the grounds of his old age. He died in 1951 in prison on Île d'Yeu, an island off the Atlantic coast, and is buried there.

Nowadays, in France, the word pétainisme suggests an authoritarian and reactionary ideology, driven by the nostalgia of a rural, agricultural, traditionalist, Catholic society. Pétain himself is generally regarded in the same manner as Vidkun Quisling is in Norway, or Benedict Arnold in the United States and perhaps to some minor degree as Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna in Mexico.


Like Pétain, John Smith appeared to have lead an honorable life, before something apparently snapped ...
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 10:25:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By larrycwdc:

Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:
That wasn't as bad as I had expected. It mostly sounds like an add for his buisness, with some BS thrown in.


That said, his 'business' doesn't seem to be more than a sidelight ... perhaps because his neigbors don't want to do business with him. But maybe with his wife working as the Commander of Administrative Services Division/Management Support Coordinator, (since February 1999) with the Albemarle County Police Department, 'hobby' is a more apt appellation. She's no doubt bringing home 'the bacon' that supplements his retirement pay while he helps his fellow man.

What with John White's denigration of local PD resources not under the expert supervision of on-site BATFE assets, I hope his wife doesn't catch any grief. Of course, since she's managing admin services she's a little removed from the rank and file. It'd sure be funny to find out that Albemarle County, or other LE agency in the vicinity, was doing any business with The GunSmith. I'd sure worry about conflict of interest, perceived or otherwise, in such a case. It is ludicrous to even think that Albemarle County might be using The GunSmith as a service-provider ... but in such a case, and if this came to light because of John Smith's testimony, that'd be some karma, eh?

Checking here doesn't reveal a business listing for "The GunSmith" in Lyndhurst, Virginia. Similarly, looking here doesn't reveal a business listing for "The GunSmith" in Lyndhurst, Virginia.

Looking for the address of "The GunSmith" here reveals that google Maps doesn't have a record of Vel-Mar (or Velmar) Lane in Lyndhurst, Virginia. Likewise, Yahoo knows not of the street, with or without a dash, as shown here. Since John Smith's wife is still serving, maybe this is a made-up address ... although based on the other statements, it doesn't appear that addresses were required.

Can anyone provide information about this purported business?

Is there a way to provide such contextual information to the Committee after this testimonly?


As far as how Mr. White should be categorized, a fitting description would be Pétainist, as can be inferred from the biographical information here, that is excerpted in the following.


In April 1945, Pétain was returned to France, where he was tried for collaboration (or treason), convicted and sentenced to death by firing squad in July-August 1945. The sentence was commuted to life imprisonment by Charles de Gaulle on August 17, 1945, on the grounds of his old age. He died in 1951 in prison on Île d'Yeu, an island off the Atlantic coast, and is buried there.

Nowadays, in France, the word pétainisme suggests an authoritarian and reactionary ideology, driven by the nostalgia of a rural, agricultural, traditionalist, Catholic society. Pétain himself is generally regarded in the same manner as Vidkun Quisling is in Norway, or Benedict Arnold in the United States and perhaps to some minor degree as Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna in Mexico.


Like Pétain, John Smith appeared to have lead an honorable life, before something apparently snapped ...



This guy needs to get what's coming his way.... (not physically of course, but people need to know about guys and organizations like him, e.g. Sportsman Foundations and the like.)
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 3:44:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2006 3:44:52 PM EDT by TURNSKULL]
found a picture of John White for you all.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 5:21:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:
TESTIMONY OF JAMES LALIME

BEFORE

THE HOUSE COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME, TERRORISM,
AND HOMELAND SECURITY





Jim Lalime is a good friend of mine and this thing has been blowing his mind for months. They made him feel like he was about to be locked up. Cost him his marriage as well for the most part.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 12:51:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/17/2006 12:58:55 AM EDT by 199]

Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:
That wasn't as bad as I had expected. ...


+1

While he certainly said things I disagreed with, his statement struck me as pretty tame (esp. considering he’s an ex-cop).


Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:
TESTIMONY OF JAMES LALIME
... I then asked agent McComas for his badge number, to which he responded, “We don’t have badges.” ...




Flat out untrue.

While I don’t see it happening (and admittedly a minor point), I’d be delighted to see this brought up by the committee.

And while again a minor point, I’d also like to see the issue of the T-shirt brought up.

My recollection was that it said (presumably on the back) “If you can read this, the bitch fell off”. While hardly profane, I can certainly see committee members (esp. female ones) quite properly objecting to a government employee wearing this. It’s not like the agent was working deep cover in a biker gang or such!
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 7:14:23 AM EDT
Ok, this brings to the forefront one strong point...

SAY NO!

You have to show police an ID....thats about it..

In order to conduct a "Terry" stop the police have to have reasonable articulable suspicion...thats the catch phrase...ask them what theirs is....make them ARTICULATE it...

REMEMBER that prior to arrest most of your comments will NOT be protected by Miranda...ask if you are being arrested, if they say no, ask what there reasons for stopping you are, if they can produce none, mention Terry v. Ohio (US Supreme Court case) tell them that without PROBABLE CAUSE or REASONABLE ARTICULABLE SUSPICION that they are in violation of your 4th Amendment protection against unreasonable search and seizure....

ALWAYS BE CALM! If the officer becomes aggitated, ask him to please call another officer to his location...continue to be polite, but say no...they can pat you down if they believe you may have a weapon...if you do, tell them before they get to that point...you DO NOT have to do this BUT...

"Officer, I want you to know I have a CCW and I am currently carrying.." goes a long way to ensuring cooperation, and prevents an officer from getting stressed when he finds an unknown weapon...

If he cannot give you a reason for the stop, other than we want to talk to you, be polite, apologize, but tell him that you have something else you would rather do, and tell them that you are going to go...DO NOT JUST TURN AROUND AND WALK AWAY...COMMUNICATE EVERYTHING YOU ARE GOING TO DO TO THE OFFICER...

Remember, in the end, this is a cop, someone who probably wants to protect people, but he is also likely underpaid and overstressed...dont add to it...be the model of cooperation...to a point...use your discretion on what questions to answer....in the above testimony...the example could be like this...

"Are you selling guns illegally (essentially what he says)..."

"Officer I appreciate your concern, but these are from my private collection"

when he repeats his question, tell him you have answered it already, and if he has nothing else, you are going to go ahead and carry on...

Most people say WAY TOO MUCH TO COPS WHEN STOPPED...be polite, be to the point, if he articulates a reasonable articulable suspicion, tell him ONLY WHAT IS ENOUGH TO REFUTE THAT SUSPICION...once you have done that, assuming no probable cause for arrest, he cannot continue to hold you...

REMEMBER...the definition of a seizure is when the reasonable person feels he could not leave...

sorry its not greatly organized...but definitely important food for thought

Link Posted: 2/17/2006 8:00:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TURNSKULL:
found a picture of John White for you all. images.google.com/images?q=tbn:1s3PQdQZbA2imM:www.bradfordbrokers.com/peter1.gif



Yep. Thats him ;-)
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 10:49:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/20/2006 11:07:30 PM EDT by larrycwdc]
Jeff Johnson, the reporter at CNSNews.com who previously reported on this incident, provided an update that is excerpted below. The report can should be read in its entirety here.


Special Report

Congress Told of ATF Seizures, Threats to Gun Buyers

By Jeff Johnson
CNSNews.com Senior Staff Writer
February 17, 2006

(CNSNews.com) - Agents of the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), allegedly acting without warrants or legislative authority to do so, seized firearms from at least 50 gun show patrons in Virginia according to congressional testimony and an agency document made public Wednesday. Witnesses also testified that African-American and female gun buyers in Richmond, Va., and Pittsburgh, Pa., were profiled based on their race or sex and some in Pittsburgh were threatened with arrest by ATF agents for alleged actions that are not violations of law.

Rep. Howard Coble (R-N.C.) chairs the House Judiciary Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism and Homeland Security, which has jurisdiction over ATF. While he supports the agency's mission, Coble questions some of its tactics.

"ATF reports that 206 [gun show] participants were stopped and interviewed while it confiscated firearms from another 50 participants," Coble said, referring to gun shows in Richmond, Va. "Although most of the firearms were ultimately returned, the purchasers were notified via official letter from ATF that [they] were ordered to appear at the local ATF office to discuss their transactions. In addition, the letter explained that failure to appear could result in an arrest warrant being issued for the alleged charges."

<snip>

Suzanne McComas, a licensed private investigator who has worked with the America's Most Wanted television program, was hired by the National Rifle Association (NRA) to gather information about ATF's Richmond operations. During her investigation, she learned that the agency had been conducting "residency checks" in at least one other U.S. city, but using different and "much more intimidating" tactics.

"At Pittsburgh, the Firearms Task Force there that's also headed by the ATF, instead of doing residency checks immediately, they're collecting the 4473 with the purchaser's address on it, then they go knock at the door about a week later and ask, 'Could we see the gun that you bought?'" McComas explained. "There's absolutely no process involved, there's no reason for them to do it. If you cannot produce the gun, they ask you for the sale paperwork. If you refuse to produce the paperwork they put you under arrest for a 'straw purchase.'"


<Click here, for full story>


Hhhmmm ... Confiscated 50 weapons? Wow, there must be a lot of people in jail now .

Richmond and Pittsburgh as focal points for these operations? Could this be a sign that the BATFE has decided to bypass the 'chain of command' in RKBA-friendly states containing vehemently anti-Second-Ammendment localities, in an apparent effort to undercut state sovereignity? If so, then this would be a bad thing ... far worse than the seeming assault on individual liberties.

And meanwhile, the flood of illegals continues little abated ... and we're outsourcing port operations to a United Arab Emirates' corporation with full knowledge about just how porous port security already is.

I am having a hard time understanding the Administration's seeming reticence to even impede -- much less preclude -- foreigners' access to our country's soft underbelly, with their apparent willingness to infringe on citizens exercising their rights.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 1:13:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By larrycwdc:
"... If you cannot produce the gun, they ask you for the sale paperwork. If you refuse to produce the paperwork they put you under arrest for a 'straw purchase..."


Sale paperwork?

I’ve never heard of a Federal requirement for sale paperwork for a personal sale; nor have ever heard of any legal obligation to present such paperwork to the ATF on demand.

I’d like to think a US magistrate would throw out any arrest made as described above.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 5:17:09 AM EDT

Richmond and Pittsburgh as focal points for these operations? Could this be a sign that the BATFE has decided to bypass the 'chain of command' in RKBA-friendly states containing vehemently anti-Second-Ammendment localities, in an apparent effort to undercut state sovereignity? If so, then this would be a bad thing ... far worse than the seeming assault on individual liberties.


That's a REALLY good point.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 9:54:41 AM EDT
tag for later reading
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 5:21:30 PM EDT
It's not against the coc to state that I hate the ATF and hope God (or Henry Bowman) strikes them down is it?

-Ben
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 12:13:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RockHard13F:
It's not against the coc to state that I hate the ATF and hope God (or Henry Bowman) strikes them down is it?

-Ben



as politically correct/socialist as this site's become..... it might be
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