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Posted: 1/31/2006 5:44:56 PM EDT
Just wondering, I just found a kick-ass gun rack that fits my Jeep's roll-bar. Problem is that the rifles would stand vertical to the floor, right behind the drivers seat. So with the tops off, the rifles would be there for all to see....which I'm not sure is legal in NoVA. Does anyone know for sure?
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 6:50:42 PM EDT
A loaded rifle, I'm not positive about, the assault weapon carry ban might affect you if you dont have a permit. However open carry in cars is legal so I think you would be ok.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 10:47:47 PM EDT
As far as I know as long as it's in "common observation " regardless of the weapon within Virginia it is OK. However looking at the Virginia gun owners guide it only specificly mentions handguns saying that "the same rules that apply to carrying a handgun on yourself apply to carrying a handgun in your car" As long as it's in plain site and you don't drive into a school or other prohibited place you're ok. So I know handguns are ok and I think rifles even assualt rifles would be too but I'm not sure.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 2:22:04 AM EDT
Honestly, I don't know. However, I know that several localities have anti-rifle carry laws under the guise of hunting laws. Be careful, and check with each locality you plan on driving through.

I just got a pickup last month and I'm going to look into where I live (Hopewell) and surrounding areas.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 5:37:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By longwatch:
...the assault weapon carry ban...


What? Please tell me more.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 6:48:34 PM EDT
Copied from the top of the Virginia forum.


§ 18.2-287.4. Carrying loaded firearms in public areas prohibited; penalty.

It shall be unlawful for any person to carry a loaded firearm on or about his person on any public street, road, alley, sidewalk, public right-of-way, or in any public park or any other place of whatever nature that is open to the public (i) in any city with a population of 160,000 or more or (ii) in any county having an urban county executive form of government or any county or city surrounded thereby or adjacent thereto or in any county having a county manager form of government. The provisions of this section shall not apply to law-enforcement officers, licensed security guards, military personnel in the performance of their lawful duties, or any person having a valid permit to carry such firearm or to any person actually engaged in lawful hunting or lawful recreational shooting activities at an established shooting range or shooting contest. Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

For purposes of this section, "firearm" means any (i) semi-automatic center-fire rifle or pistol that expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material and is equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine which will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock or (ii) shotgun with a magazine which will hold more than seven rounds of the longest ammunition for which it is chambered.





Is this what you all are talking about?
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 4:41:11 PM EDT
They probably are, but in my opinion you're asking for trouble.
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 5:02:28 PM EDT
If somebody is following the law how could they be asking for trouble?
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 5:31:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By longwatch:
If somebody is following the law how could they be asking for trouble?



Think of this:
1) legal or not you are at the mercy of the officer you encounter IF you're stopped
2) everybody has a cell phone, and could make your life miserable just for spite
3) why advertise?
If you go somewhere and park for any amount of time it says "steal me"
or have some clowns follow you home and plan a burglary for later. I don't know where in VA you're located (NoVa here), but that would probably cause some major headaches up here.
Just my opinion.
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 6:28:21 PM EDT
Well you have to carry it somehow, a rack is as good as any other method. I see plenty of trucks with two or tree shotguns in the back window. My only concern would be theft if you stop somewhere. Some will argue that you cant have it loaded but with the above code that isnt the case and there is also a section that allows any locality to put in loaded weapon laws for the purpose of hunting. The problem with that is that there is a self defence clause in there and a AR15 with 30round mag would not be something you would be riding around in nova with to shoot deer.
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 7:21:34 PM EDT
If a police officer makes a false arrest for open carry of a weapon well they are going to find themselves in a whole lot of legal trouble. See what happened after the FCPD falsely arrested those guys at Starbucks a few years ago. Open carry is legal, it is your right in Virginia,( the Attorney General just said so) and I do it with a pistol often enough in NOVA with no problems and I can't see anything illegal about a rifle in a vehicle rack. Now leaving a weapon unattended does have a real risk but people calling the cops maliciously of bad guys following you home? I don't really buy those reasons against it.
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 8:17:33 AM EDT
You can abide by the laws all you want but in reality you will increase your chances of being stopped (lawfully that is, Hope all your stickers and equipment is up to date and in good working order and you watch your speed etc....etc...all code of virginia in their arsenal) and if visible and "unattended" you will increase your chances of theft. Dont think for a minute any rifle lock cant be defeated. Most on the ball LE will check that serial number and look for signs of removal or altercation, then they will run your Criminal History and the serial number while on the stop to see if you are a felon, unless you have a valid CCWP, etc etc etc.. Hope your not in hurry to get to work or make an appointment, these checks take time and the interdiction or LE will probably do them. I have a Jeep and it sounds like a good set-up for going to the range.
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 9:00:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By KogaShuko:
Well you have to carry it somehow, a rack is as good as any other method. I see plenty of trucks with two or tree shotguns in the back window. My only concern would be theft if you stop somewhere. Some will argue that you cant have it loaded but with the above code that isnt the case and there is also a section that allows any locality to put in loaded weapon laws for the purpose of hunting. The problem with that is that there is a self defence clause in there and a AR15 with 30round mag would not be something you would be riding around in nova with to shoot deer.



THat is why you use a 20 round mag!!
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 11:39:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/1/2006 11:43:01 AM EDT by va_roadrunner]
I'm not sure if we're discussing loaded rifles in vehicles, however be mindful of the Local Firearm Ordinances, Laws and Regulations. Many counties restrict loaded rifles and shotguns in vehicles "on the road:"

"The following counties and cities have regulations concerning the use and transportation of firearms. The number or numbers following that county name indicate the regulations listed below for that particular county."

21. It is unlawful to transport or possess a loaded shotgun or loaded rifle on the road from October 1 through Feb. 15.

22. It is unlawful to possess a loaded firearm on the road except when permission to hunt is obtained from landowners on each side.

23. It is unlawful to transport or possess loaded shotgun or loaded rifle on the road from sundown to sunrise.

30. It is unlawful to carry a loaded firearm on the road or on the right-of-way.

34. It is unlawful to transport or possess a loaded shotgun or rifle in a vehicle on a road during open deer season.

68. It shall be unlawful for any person to transport, possess or carry a loaded shotgun, rifle, pistol, or firearm of any nature in any vehicle or on his person over, along or on any public street, road or highway in the city.



Link Posted: 3/1/2006 11:49:00 AM EDT
Just noticed the code section cited above is out of date. It was cleaned up by a VCDL bill last year.
leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-287.4

§ 18.2-287.4. Carrying loaded firearms in public areas prohibited; penalty.

It shall be unlawful for any person to carry a loaded (a) semi-automatic center-fire rifle or pistol that expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material and is equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine that will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock or (b) shotgun with a magazine that will hold more than seven rounds of the longest ammunition for which it is chambered on or about his person on any public street, road, alley, sidewalk, public right-of-way, or in any public park or any other place of whatever nature that is open to the public (i) in any city with a population of 160,000 or more or (ii) in any county having an urban county executive form of government or any county or city surrounded thereby or adjacent thereto or in any county having a county manager form of government.

The provisions of this section shall not apply to law-enforcement officers, licensed security guards, military personnel in the performance of their lawful duties, or any person having a valid concealed handgun permit or to any person actually engaged in lawful hunting or lawful recreational shooting activities at an established shooting range or shooting contest. Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

The exemptions set forth in § 18.2-308 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to the provisions of this section.

Link Posted: 3/1/2006 12:55:28 PM EDT
Good news is that #22 is being amended to only apply to hunters and not those in moving vehicles.
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 8:13:42 AM EDT
The racks are used when the vehicle does not have a trunk and you need to transport a long arm.
This has nothing to do with the concealed carry law. That law only applies to handguns.
This is just regular transport.

The gun must either be inaccessible to the vehicle occupants (trunk) or clearly visible (rack).
It may not be loaded in either case.
A rack that is below the window sills might be interpreted as not clearly visible. The standard for many years has been that it must be readily apparent to someone approaching the vehicle if you attempt to reach the weapon.

Can you get away with more? Maybe.
If you want to stay clearly on the legal side use the rack in a window.
I would never consider a rack in a soft top vehicle. You have about zero security.
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 8:03:59 PM EDT

§ 15.2-1209.1. Counties may regulate carrying of loaded firearms on public highways.

The governing body of any county is hereby empowered to adopt ordinances making it unlawful for any person to carry or have in his possession while on any part of a public highway within such county a loaded firearm when such person is not authorized to hunt on the private property on both sides of the highway along which he is standing or walking; and to provide a penalty for violation of such ordinance not to exceed a fine of $100. The provisions of this section shall not apply to persons carrying loaded firearms in moving vehicles, or to persons acting at the time in defense of persons or property.



Which is why I noted that an AR with 30round mag would not be used for hunting. As long as you have a permit you are good to go.

Link Posted: 3/3/2006 7:17:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wolfpak:
You can abide by the laws all you want but in reality you will increase your chances of being stopped (lawfully that is, Hope all your stickers and equipment is up to date and in good working order and you watch your speed etc....etc...all code of virginia in their arsenal) and if visible and "unattended" you will increase your chances of theft. Dont think for a minute any rifle lock cant be defeated. Most on the ball LE will check that serial number and look for signs of removal or altercation, then they will run your Criminal History and the serial number while on the stop to see if you are a felon, unless you have a valid CCWP, etc etc etc.. Hope your not in hurry to get to work or make an appointment, these checks take time and the interdiction or LE will probably do them. I have a Jeep and it sounds like a good set-up for going to the range.



On a traffic stop?!?

Using what justification?
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 11:24:43 AM EDT
"On a traffic stop?!?

Using what justification?"

Plain site. And the law requires the weapon to be in plain site if it is in the passenger compartment.
The concealed carry law does not aply to long arms. Period.
Right on your card it says
"Permit to carry a concelaed handgun"

Not a rifle, not a shotgun. A handgun.

The rules for long arm transport are almost completley under the hunting regulations.
If you carry a long gun loaded on the road, your carry permit does not apply.

Long arms must be unloaded and either carried in a place inaccessible to the vehicle occupants or displayed in plain site. In a window rack.
It is useful for point to point trips were you know you will not leave the vehicle (or at least can keep it in clear site at all times).


Link Posted: 3/3/2006 6:35:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2006 6:36:38 PM EDT by KogaShuko]

Plain site. And the law requires the weapon to be in plain site if it is in the passenger compartment.
The concealed carry law does not aply to long arms. Period.
Right on your card it says
"Permit to carry a concelaed handgun"

Not a rifle, not a shotgun. A handgun.

The rules for long arm transport are almost completley under the hunting regulations.
If you carry a long gun loaded on the road, your carry permit does not apply.

Long arms must be unloaded and either carried in a place inaccessible to the vehicle occupants or displayed in plain site. In a window rack.
It is useful for point to point trips were you know you will not leave the vehicle (or at least can keep it in clear site at all times).



Yeh but take a look at 18.2-308 you also cant get charged for having a concealed weapon for having a rifle or shotgun. It is not covered specificly in the section. It has some strange language about projecting something and if it isnt a balistic knife, handgun, or anything else that specificly listed there by name any charges if filed are usually dropped.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 7:33:59 PM EDT
Ya gotta love how the 2nd Amendment is so amendable...
Brother forgets how "there shall be no law..."

Untill he wants to sign a bill that ups the taxes and (*&%!! us for the benifit of
some dude who made poor choices...

Please excuse me, I must go and vomit
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 12:05:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DrMark:

Originally Posted By wolfpak:
You can abide by the laws all you want but in reality you will increase your chances of being stopped (lawfully that is, Hope all your stickers and equipment is up to date and in good working order and you watch your speed etc....etc...all code of virginia in their arsenal) and if visible and "unattended" you will increase your chances of theft. Dont think for a minute any rifle lock cant be defeated. Most on the ball LE will check that serial number and look for signs of removal or altercation, then they will run your Criminal History and the serial number while on the stop to see if you are a felon, unless you have a valid CCWP, etc etc etc.. Hope your not in hurry to get to work or make an appointment, these checks take time and the interdiction or LE will probably do them. I have a Jeep and it sounds like a good set-up for going to the range.



On a traffic stop?!?

Using what justification?




I do not think justification is needed after a valid traffic stop to do all of the above. All the LE has to do is ask, do you have any weapons in the vehicle(which I'm sure they are allowed to ask if they want) then ask for consent to see the weapon or a search. As for the CCWP its for handguns not rifles. I wonder if ATF does this after you leave the fun show? Richmond?
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 12:34:32 PM EDT
I had one of the same racks in a Jeep a few years ago. Never had a LEO even mention it if I was stopped, But I never left anything in it for an extended period of time.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 12:57:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By wolfpak:

Originally Posted By DrMark:

Originally Posted By wolfpak:
You can abide by the laws all you want but in reality you will increase your chances of being stopped (lawfully that is, Hope all your stickers and equipment is up to date and in good working order and you watch your speed etc....etc...all code of virginia in their arsenal) and if visible and "unattended" you will increase your chances of theft. Dont think for a minute any rifle lock cant be defeated. Most on the ball LE will check that serial number and look for signs of removal or altercation, then they will run your Criminal History and the serial number while on the stop to see if you are a felon, unless you have a valid CCWP, etc etc etc.. Hope your not in hurry to get to work or make an appointment, these checks take time and the interdiction or LE will probably do them. I have a Jeep and it sounds like a good set-up for going to the range.



On a traffic stop?!?

Using what justification?




I do not think justification is needed after a valid traffic stop to do all of the above. All the LE has to do is ask, do you have any weapons in the vehicle(which I'm sure they are allowed to ask if they want) then ask for consent to see the weapon or a search. As for the CCWP its for handguns not rifles. I wonder if ATF does this after you leave the fun show? Richmond?



So if an LEO wants to take control of your weapon during a stop, you can say "no" without a problem?

Link Posted: 3/6/2006 5:14:52 AM EDT
If they ask, and "you give consent", sure they can take control of your rifle or any weapon. As for what each LEO might and might not do if you say No, who knows. I do know "you can" say no to a search if the LEO has "no probable" cause for their search. We could what if this forever. Every stop is different, no such thing a routine. Hope this helps. If anybody is interested on what they can and cannot do they should check local and state laws as well with the Commonwealth attorney in their area.


Mayday or CentralVAhunter, you got any pics you can post of your jeep rack?
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 7:51:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wolfpak:
You can abide by the laws all you want but in reality you will increase your chances of being stopped (lawfully that is, Hope all your stickers and equipment is up to date and in good working order and you watch your speed etc....etc...all code of virginia in their arsenal) and if visible and "unattended" you will increase your chances of theft. Dont think for a minute any rifle lock cant be defeated. Most on the ball LE will check that serial number and look for signs of removal or altercation, then they will run your Criminal History and the serial number while on the stop to see if you are a felon, unless you have a valid CCWP, etc etc etc.. Hope your not in hurry to get to work or make an appointment, these checks take time and the interdiction or LE will probably do them. I have a Jeep and it sounds like a good set-up for going to the range.




Being a NOVA LEO I can tell you this is good advice. The best thing to do is be low key about firearm carry in an urban area. Like it or not(and I don't) it freaks people out. Goodluck.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 10:06:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JUSTACOP:
The best thing to do is be low key about firearm carry in an urban area. Like it or not(and I don't) it freaks people out. Goodluck.


+1.
Legal or not,
Open carry = cop magnet.
Open carry = idiot magnet.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 11:29:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/6/2006 11:31:14 AM EDT by brickeyee]
“Yeh but take a look at 18.2-308 you also cant get charged for having a concealed weapon for having a rifle or shotgun. “

Want to try that again? Sounds like an “other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile…”
If you have a long gun concealed in a vehicle and accessible to the occupants you can and will be charged. Long guns go in the trunk or in plain site so as to defeat the “hidden from common observation” clause of the statute.

This has been the status quo for carrying long guns for hunting for at least the past 50+ years.

Code of Virginia
Ҥ 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.
A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material; “

The only relief is in 18.2-308.B.6:

“6. Any person actually engaged in lawful hunting, as authorized by the Board of Game and Inland Fisheries, under inclement weather conditions necessitating temporary protection of his firearm from those conditions, provided that possession of a handgun while engaged in lawful hunting shall not be construed as hunting with a handgun if the person hunting is carrying a valid concealed handgun permit; and “

Link Posted: 3/8/2006 5:43:25 AM EDT
To get back to the gun rack itself. I used one of those between the seat gun racks in my jeeps for years. Due to a limited amount of space in the older Jeeps it worked great. However, that was 20yrs. ago in the Front Royal, Va area. No one payed any attention to guns in a vechicle then. With the room in the newer Jeeps I would just keep my weapon in a hard case behind the front seats. The view is not worth the climb unless you are going to have the weapon in the rack on privite property only, then I say go for it. Keep your weapon out of sight on the roads though. Every other person you see on the road these days has a cell phone pasted to their ear and might cause you trouble. Most "out of state Virginians" don't have a clue about firearms. Most think you need a permit to own one.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 10:13:54 AM EDT
If the weapon can be accessed by the occupants without being clearly seen from outside the vehicle it will be considered concealed and you can be charged.

There is only more than 50 years of case law defining when and how the weapon may be transported to comply with the “hidden from common observation” rules, and what “about his person” means.

You could try to make an argument that you could not retrieve the weapon without it being readily apparent, but behind the seat in pick-ups will get you in trouble also. While I think it would be pretty darn apparent you are getting a long gun from behind a typical tilting front seat it does not meet the law.

If I was pulled over for transporting long guns in full compliance with the state law I would get a badge number and start filling out complaint forms.
The law has not been changed even if some yahoo would like it to be.
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 5:54:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/15/2006 5:55:26 AM EDT by brickeyee]
Just a further note. Vehicla gun racks are even exempted from the school grounds rule if you are dropping off or picking up.
§ 18.2-308.1. Possession of firearm, stun weapon, or other weapon on school property prohibited.

A. If any person possesses any (i) stun weapon or taser as defined in this section; (ii) knife, except a pocket knife having a folding metal blade of less than three inches; or (iii) weapon, including a weapon of like kind, designated in subsection A of § 18.2-308, other than a firearm; upon (a) the property of any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds; (b) that portion of any property open to the public and then exclusively used for school-sponsored functions or extracurricular activities while such functions or activities are taking place; or (c) any school bus owned or operated by any such school, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor... The exemptions set out in § 18.2-308 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to the provisions of this section. The provisions of this section shall not apply to (i) persons who possess such weapon or weapons as a part of the school's curriculum or activities; (ii) a person possessing a knife customarily used for food preparation or service and using it for such purpose; (iii) persons who possess such weapon or weapons as a part of any program sponsored or facilitated by either the school or any organization authorized by the school to conduct its programs either on or off the school premises; (iv) any law-enforcement officer; (v) any person who possesses a knife or blade which he uses customarily in his trade; (vi) a person who possesses an unloaded firearm that is in a closed container, or a knife having a metal blade, in or upon a motor vehicle, or an unloaded shotgun or rifle in a firearms rack in or upon a motor vehicle; or (vii) a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit and possesses a concealed handgun while in a motor vehicle in a parking lot, traffic circle, or other means of vehicular ingress or egress to the school. For the purposes of this paragraph, "weapon" includes a knife having a metal blade of three inches or longer and "closed container" includes a locked vehicle trunk. *


The use of open racks for carrying llong arms remains the correct method if they are in the passenger compartment of a vehicle.
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