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Posted: 11/10/2004 3:34:45 PM EDT
[#1]
I'd be interested in some tactical shotgun, too
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Posted: 11/10/2004 4:01:10 PM EDT
[#2]
I have no problem with the doing some Shotgun instruction as well.
Back to the low light shooting for a second. I think the pistol portion should cover non-weapon mounted light use. Since I would be willing to bet that most of us CCW with non mounted lights, I think more practice should be geared towards that. YMMV 
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Posted: 11/10/2004 7:16:18 PM EDT
[#3]
Yes, I would prefer handheld light shooting......
In fact, that would make it easier to lend lights to those who may not have one and gives us a little more realistic sense of deploying a firearm with the different "grips".... I do not have a carbine mounted light....  C4igrant can I get a tape switch for the X200???? |
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Posted: 11/11/2004 5:51:13 AM EDT
[#4]
If lowlight shooting was handheld light with pistol that would be great.
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Posted: 11/12/2004 5:38:40 PM EDT
[#5]
I'm having some trouble keeping this all straight. It’s getting very hard to communicate the exact class we want to Blackwater with all the changes. Do we really want a three day Pistol/Carbine/Shotgun/Low light (Hand Held Only) class? Blackwater was already suggesting we go to a five day class and I have not even mentioned shotgun training yet. Personally, I have no interest in including shotgun training. Obviously, it will be included if everybody agrees to it. Do we need another vote on adding a shotgun section? Do you guys think we can realistically get all of this into three days? I think we should keep Doug's statement in mind: "Remembering there is only so much you can accomplish in three days. Question do you want to cover a lot of techniques a little bit or a reasonable amount of techniques a lot?" I spoke to Rob one of the senior instructors yesterday and he was pushing for a five day class. This would push the cost of the class up to $1000, plus the $50 per day of low light. Ammunition requirements go up to 2500 rounds minimum. Is this the direction we want to go? Blackwater also stated everybody will need there own lights for the low light training. Hand held or weapon mounted for the pistol section and weapon mounted only for the carbine low light. No sharing of lights. It will hold up the training too much to share lights.
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Posted: 11/12/2004 5:47:10 PM EDT
[#6]
I am out of a 5 day.  3 days.....Pistol/Carbine/Minimal Low Light or Advanced Pistol/Carbine, period. FWIW.... 
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Posted: 11/12/2004 5:56:47 PM EDT
[#7]
+1 |
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Posted: 11/12/2004 6:04:09 PM EDT
[#8]
Fellows, don't let your imagination get away with you. Sometimes the simpliest approach is the far better approach. I can't speak for any of the other instructors at Blackwater but rest assured if you go in to this with an open mind the instructor you get will push you based on your abilities.
The best thing each of you can do is come together on what it is you would like to cover in THREE DAYS, not much time. If you simplify your requirements and concentrate on building on where you are I can guarntee you will come away with big smiles on your face instead of frustration |
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Posted: 11/12/2004 6:06:31 PM EDT
[#9]
Thanks for the advice Doug!
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Posted: 11/12/2004 8:10:09 PM EDT
[#10]
I'll just wait a few days for everybody to post there opinion before I contact Blackwater again. Everybody deserves to have there opinion heard on this matter. We are all paying our hard earned money and I'd like to design a class everybody can live with.
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Posted: 11/13/2004 1:37:56 AM EDT
[#11]
+ 2 We can plan for a 5-Day in Phase III in 2006 to include a shotty class. Sorry for gettin' off track 
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Posted: 11/13/2004 2:03:48 PM EDT
[#12]
Dinger, I've got a suggestion - We have been posting our opinions through at least two threads for at least a month now. We are all going no matter what , all this spit-balling is just that - "Wouldn't it be cool if..."What we need is for you to take all of the stuff you've seen asked for, temper it with what you think is doable/reasonable, and post two (and no more than two) class agendas for a vote by those that attended the first class. (don't do a poll, just record votes from our posts) As soon as you get majority vote, the issue is closed. Anybody disagree? |
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Posted: 11/13/2004 3:54:47 PM EDT
[#13]
I spoke with Paul this evening and we should be able to have a proposed class schedule by the middle of next week. Once that is taken care of, I think everyone will be in agreement on the next class.
I hope anyway. 
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Posted: 11/13/2004 4:04:58 PM EDT
[#14]
Yes, give us the distilled versions......give us the opportunity to vote and that is that..... 
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Posted: 11/14/2004 9:51:06 AM EDT
[#15]
Roger that! |
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Posted: 11/14/2004 1:09:46 PM EDT
[#16]
+3 |
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Posted: 11/15/2004 10:02:07 AM EDT
[#17]
I'm seriously considering running an AR10 carbine at the next class with a backup M4 carbine.
Rob -- you gonna do it this year? |
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Posted: 11/15/2004 11:48:23 AM EDT
[#18]
I think that's a great idea. If you don't, you better bring it as a back-up for the M4. 
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Posted: 11/15/2004 1:19:37 PM EDT
[#19]
+ what number are we up too? I think a shotgun class should be kept seperate. Blackwater has does a lot of instructing. If they see the class we took previously, I am sure they will be able to teach us a lot more. |
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Posted: 11/15/2004 4:18:10 PM EDT
[#20]
I most likely will, I just need to replace the handguard with a better quality piece. |
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Posted: 11/15/2004 5:59:34 PM EDT
[#21]
I dumped the LMT high dollar shit. It should work fine this year. |
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Posted: 11/15/2004 6:07:41 PM EDT
[#22]
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Posted: 11/16/2004 6:07:36 PM EDT
[#23]
Gents....
Can I offer some insight? You have a great opportunity for some great training. Do not try to get overwhelmed with a whole lot of stuff. If this is a three day affair, stick to rifles and go from there. "Remembering there is only so much you can accomplish in three days. Question do you want to cover a lot of techniques a little bit or a reasonable amount of techniques a lot?" This should be the question you want to answer in regards to a three day course. Frankly, I'd leave the shotties out of this. I say this because I just did a Defensive Shotgun course at SigArms this summer. It was a two day affair and that really just covered the basics. Additionally, except for transitions to the sidearm drills, I'd leave any further pistol work out of it. You won't really get any real in-depth pistol training accomplished. Again, I say this cuz I have done several SigArms pistol classes over the last few years. Serious pistol training is a five-day hitch, minimum. You would be cheating yourselves. Keep it simple. Rifles, Rifles, Rifles! Add low-light to this, but, keep it rifle oriented. Add a good amount of non-dominant hand shooting, etc. Remember, your sidearm is there for when the rifle goes empty/belly-up and you need something until you get it back up and running. Therefore, keep the pistol work to a minimum. If you want pistol training, take a dedicated pistol course, you will be better served doing so. This is strictly my opinion, please take it for what it is worth. Enjoy your course......... edited for grammar |
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Posted: 11/16/2004 6:16:19 PM EDT
[#24]
We all trained at Blackwater in the summer. 3 day pistol/carbine class. We are working on where to go next..... This will be a pistol/carbine class, that's predetemined. ...but thanks for the help. |
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Posted: 11/24/2004 4:04:58 PM EDT
[#25]
Va_Dinger, I may be jumping ahead a little with this Question. For the 10 of us that attended Phase 1 in June, Do we need to renew or update our Credentials for Blackwater in regards to Phase II. Thanks BTH
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Posted: 11/24/2004 5:21:49 PM EDT
[#26]
Yes, you will need to submit a new credential. Blackwater does not keep past credentials on file. ***I should have the intineray proposal completed by next weekend. My work has been crazy this month and I have not had a chance to work on it. Things should get back to normal next week. *** |
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Posted: 11/24/2004 7:48:31 PM EDT
[#27]
Oh shit... you better get started now Bobby.
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Posted: 11/25/2004 3:59:41 AM EDT
[#28]
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Posted: 11/26/2004 6:11:02 AM EDT
[#29]
I have attended several course at Blackwater. While they required me to submit credentials each time, they had no problem with me submitting a copy of the credentials I used for previous courses. While you may want to verify this with Carol, they should be OK with a copy of whatever you used for the first course. (If you kept copies!) For you folks in communist states, this may cut down on the red tape!
- Bill |
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Posted: 11/26/2004 8:47:58 AM EDT
[#30]
Bill, Thanks for the tip, may save me $30. to the State Police for another background.
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Posted: 12/23/2004 6:25:05 PM EDT
[#31]
I can swing that for you if you want. |
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Posted: 12/24/2004 4:13:27 AM EDT
[#32]
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Posted: 12/25/2004 4:43:12 AM EDT
[#33]
Now that my work has calmed down I can get back on this. Blackwater and I have been playing phone tag for the past month. I should have this wrapped up in under two weeks.
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Posted: 1/12/2005 1:22:23 PM EDT
[#34]
I spoke with Blackwater yesterday. Everything is going along smooth and we are on track. Carol has assured me we will have a intineray by early next week. We will be having a low light section at the end of day two. Thanks
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Posted: 1/21/2005 2:30:28 AM EDT
[#35]
I just stopped by to see how the class was coming along, it looks like everything is shaping up nicely, and to say hello from Afghanistan.
I got the chance to speak with Carol before I left and told her what a great group of guys you were. I also mentioned how good each of you were when I worked with you last summer and what a challenge it was. I may have this wrong but I mentioned to her about having the phase I and phase II class going at the same time so at the end of the days training you could get together as a group and hang out. I hope I got the feeling of the group rignt. Anyway here's hoping you have a succesful three day of training, eveyone is satisfied with the format and everyone comes away with some more knowledge. Good Luck, wish I could be there, maybe next time Doug |
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Posted: 1/21/2005 2:53:47 AM EDT
[#36]
Doug, thank you and make sure to watch your ass. |
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Posted: 1/21/2005 2:54:05 AM EDT
[#37]
Doug, Thank You .Good to hear from you. Take Care
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Posted: 1/21/2005 3:45:43 AM EDT
[#38]
It's great to hear from you, and I hope you make it back safe and sound. |
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Posted: 1/21/2005 11:20:10 AM EDT
[#39]
I got a call today and we now have a new contact at Blackwater. It seems Carol has moved on to a different position within Blackwater. I'm pleased to say he is very eager to get our planning completed at a faster pace. I've been assured we will have everything squared away shortly. Carol has been swamped lately and it has slowed us down considerably.
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Posted: 2/2/2005 7:48:28 AM EDT
[#40]
Any more developments? I know you are locked in on Phase I, but I'm curious.....
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Posted: 2/2/2005 2:28:07 PM EDT
[#41]
No, I do not have any updates yet. The class is certainly going to happen and Blackwater has us locked on their schedule. I'm still working on the details with our new contact. Carol did not turn over many details to her replacement, so it was almost like going back to square one. It’s not really a problem, and we should have a workable itinerary soon. |
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Posted: 2/6/2005 8:54:44 AM EDT
[#42]
Here is a course description I stole from Sig's site. It is their advanced rifle course, it sounds pretty interesting.
Advanced Defensive Rifle Duration: 3 days / 24 hours Abstract This course is intended for citizens who desire more advanced level training with rifle or pistol caliber shoulder weapons primarily designed for personal defense or training. The emphasis of this course is on defensive applications at close range. The course minimizes classroom time, with the participant taking part in a series of drills that pick up where Defensive Rifle leaves off. The course then introduces more advanced skills and applications. Overview Review of Responsible Firearms Ownership and Defensive Applications of the Rifle and Carbine. Review of Firearms Safety that works-in the home, workplace, vehicle, in training, and in carry. Check of Zeroing and Precision Shooting, at various shooting positions Static and Dynamic Drills Incorporating: Reactive Shooting Multiple Shot Techniques Identification and Engagement of Multiple Opponents Shooting While Moving and Utilization of Tactical Movement Identification and Utilization of Cover Diminished Light Equipment, Techniques and Tactics Shooting from Alternative and Disadvantaged Positions Extreme Close Quarters Shooting Techniques Advanced Tactical Immediate Action One Handed Operations (mounting, firing, and reloading) Transition from shoulder weapon to handgun (various methods) Defensive Rifle Interactive Training Scenarios and Judgmental Training Preventative Maintenance session-cleaning, maintenance, inspection, and safe storage |
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Posted: 2/6/2005 11:07:18 AM EDT
[#43]
Yo ! This is a Blackwater Thread ONLY Where in the Hell is GUM ??? 
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Posted: 3/2/2005 4:10:43 PM EDT
[#44]
Oddly enough, we now have another new Blackwater contact. This is now our third. I have had to almost go back to square one with the Phase II intineray for the second time. Thank God, we started this process very early.
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Posted: 3/8/2005 10:34:09 AM EDT
[#45]
Update
I just got off the phone with Blackwater and have some great news to pass along. They have agreed to include at least half a day of training in their shoot house during the Phase II class. I’m talking about the real deal Military/LEO only shoot house. We will also be spending a portion of the day at the Rogers Range. The shoot house training will be geared towards home defense scenarios using both the carbine and pistol. The low light section of the course will also be held in the Blackwater shoot house. They feel the low light section will be far more productive if the training is conducted indoors and I could not agree more. I should have a complete itinerary by next week; I just wanted to pass along this great news. |
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Posted: 3/8/2005 10:52:58 AM EDT
[#46]
Since I'm set for the phase I class in May can I get on the list for the phase II class?
Thanks, Mike |
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Posted: 3/8/2005 1:37:07 PM EDT
[#47]
Holy Crap, that is great news!!!!!!!
  I can't wait. |
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Posted: 3/8/2005 6:39:29 PM EDT
[#48]
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Posted: 3/9/2005 2:45:37 AM EDT
[#49]
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Posted: 3/9/2005 3:03:02 AM EDT
[#50]
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