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Posted: 7/6/2003 9:27:35 AM EDT
Where do signs need to be located at merchant's shops in order to notify CCW's that guns are unwelcomed??? I have never seen any signs, except at Galyan's, but thier sign is more about making sure the boys with rifles know to keep ammo and guns separated when getting work done, like scopes etc....


So where do these signs need to be??

Link Posted: 7/6/2003 10:04:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SHIVAN458:
Where do signs need to be located at merchant's shops in order to notify CCW's that guns are unwelcomed??? I have never seen any signs, except at Galyan's, but thier sign is more about making sure the boys with rifles know to keep ammo and guns separated when getting work done, like scopes etc....


So where do these signs need to be??




Well, it would make sense that the sign would need to be clearly visible prior to entering the establishment. "No firearms beyond this point" or something such similar on, above, or imediately ajdacent to the door.
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 11:40:24 AM EDT
Yeah, I know what senisble would be, but places that I have heard have banned firearms in their stores have no such signs plain for me to see. This is why I am asking.
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 12:58:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SHIVAN458:
Yeah, I know what senisble would be, but places that I have heard have banned firearms in their stores have no such signs plain for me to see. This is why I am asking.



Well if it's not visibly posted, they can't really do shit about it if you brought a gun into the store, now could they. After all, company policies aren't law. Btw, if you're carrying concealed, who would know anyway?
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 2:26:46 PM EDT
Part of VA's law says that any place that wants to prohibit CCW carry in their store needs to post a clearly visible sign in each entrance way. Hence, sin Manassas Mall only has two signs but over ten ways to enter the mall, you can't be guilty of violating their request. BUT, the law also says that if you are carrying and asked to leave or asked to go put your gun in your vehicle, you need to comply.
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 6:55:26 AM EDT
Yep, that's correct. And if you do get in trouble, it is not a firearms violation, it's a tresspassing violation. Again though, the Manassass example, you couldn't really get in trouble unless they could prove that you came in through a marked entrance.

The sign must be posted where any "reasonable" individual would see it and understand it.
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 5:18:55 AM EDT
Even in Potomac Mills Mall, the prohibition sign is , i think, number 13 out of 15 - of their Rules of Conduct - a plaque that's maybe 15" x 24" total - its the plaque sign that says, everybody must wear a shirt or you cannot go in barefoot etc... how one could posibly see it as they walk in, is beyond me. So i choose not to see it and read all 12 other rules ranging from loud music to skateboarding etc just to get down to the prohibition sign LOL.


dd
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 3:20:30 PM EDT
This is very similar to what happened to me this past weekend. I took a bus up to new york last thursday night. Guns are illegal in NY but pocket knives are not. I looked on they grey hound websight for any posted information on if certain items were not allowed. On the faq of what is and isnt allowed I found fireworks, guns, explosives amonge other things but knives were NOT listed. I packed a few because I was going to double check which sizes were allowed when I got to new york. I have had no problems carrying knives on checked luggage (that I did not have access to) on airlines.

I traveled to the bus station and saw no signs posted outside saying no weapons or anything similar. On the way to board they desided to search bags randomly. The armed security officer kindly informed anyone that had any knives or sharp objects that they could not bring them and pointed to a small sign on the terminal doors on the way to the bus. I have no problem with this whatsoever and felt safer since we were going to be weapon free. I quickly produced what I had in my pockets and was going to give them to my ride to take to the vehicle. The knife was then snatched from my hand by the armed security officer who refused to return it. I then asked if he could check the knives in to be sent up and he said "no". I then advised him that he needed to give me my knife back. He refused and after a breif argument I was told he would give them to my ride when I left so they could not give it back. He then chucked the items into a pile of other knives that had been taken. I did not get a receipt and to the common person all the knives looked the same in the box.

He then asked to check my bag. I agreed and opened it up and started moving items around for him. I got ready to close the bag and he reached into my bag without asking and started moving all my cloths around. I then desided I was going to revoke my consentual search and figured the worst could happen is that I would have to walk to new york and least that I would have to leave my bag. I then said "stop" he then continued to go through my bag and produced a small knife that I had taken when I took my bag on vacation before. He then asked if I had any guns. My reply was a "no" and he continued to go through my bag for a while before he was happy that I had no guns.

He then left and went outside. I desided that he had practically stolen my items at this point since I had no receipt and he was gone. One of the people I road with said he would go out and ask. I waited and when he returned he advised that the officer was standing out back with several police officers and he asked for the knives and agreed they could all watch him take them off property and place them in a vehicle parked on a public parking area. The officer tried to say that one of the folders were illegal but still returned it (in va there is no limit to length on folding blades). I was angry at the treatment that I had received - not because I was not allowed to carry the knives but because they were taken and it required several arguments to get them back. Also, my request to stop a concentual search that had not turned up any illegal items was ignored.

On my return I desided to have a talk with management. When I told the manager he began to yell at me. He told me that it was private property and I was not allowed to have the knives and that I was lucky he did not have Richmond PD arrest me. I then advised him that he needed a sign on the building. He then yelled at me again and advised that it was private property and he did not need any signs outside that they could do what they wanted and I had no rights. I then asked who provided security. He did not know the name of the company but he did know that they were DCJS certified and the guy's name that ran it. I asked how to contact him and he said that I could not to come back later. I advised that he needed to give me contact information for the company or it would result in a call to DCJS for refusal to identify their security providers identity. He then produced a number and offered to call him for me. I spoke with the person on the phone and he was quite a bit kinder, although the manager found that he needed to repeatedly raise his voice and interupt while I was talking saying "this is private property your rights do not apply." The guy on the phone, I will not disclose his name on a forum, advised me that the search was for officer safety. I can understand that but at the same time I was not a threat, I had volunteered the items, and I was not brandishing a weapon. He then told me that if I had a handgun even with a permit that I could have and probably would have been drawn on by the officer. He told me any items violating their private rules could be kept and that included law enforcement officer's weapons if they wanted to. He then said that there was signs on the building, there was an anouncement inside, and they listed knives on the internet. None of which I could find. He tried to say that his officers worked under federal law on searches and seizures which superseeds state law. He said his officers did not have time to ask for concent, nor to let me move the items around in the bags, and was probably not friendly due to some drug arrests that were made that night. I thanked him for his time and at least talking to me and explaining something to me.

I have been unable locate anything in the federal code listing anything about checking in items or possessing items in a bus station. I looked under the TSA websight but it only concerns airplanes and lists knives as checkable. I am not sure what to think of the whole situation. If someone would be kind enough to show a listing of the laws and regulations that allows a private security officer working for a private company to suspend constitutional rights for something that isnt illegal or listed illegal on the terms of servie I would be gratefull. Otherwise, be very careful about traveling grey hound and do not carry your valuables unless you want to lose them.
Link Posted: 7/9/2003 9:10:12 AM EDT
I saw one over near the SAIC Bldg on Sunset near the new Chik-Fil-a


On the outter door 1-11/2 inch letters say guns are prohibited-Don't ask me if I complyed...
Link Posted: 7/9/2003 8:51:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SHIVAN458:
Where do signs need to be located at merchant's shops in order to notify CCW's that guns are unwelcomed??? I have never seen any signs, except at Galyan's, but thier sign is more about making sure the boys with rifles know to keep ammo and guns separated when getting work done, like scopes etc....


So where do these signs need to be??




Ed, where is the sign at Galyan's???
I haven't seen it, and have been in there a few times while carrying.
Link Posted: 7/9/2003 10:10:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/9/2003 10:11:42 PM EDT by Landric]
"If someone would be kind enough to show a listing of the laws and regulations that allows a private security officer working for a private company to suspend constitutional rights for something that isnt illegal or listed illegal on the terms of servie I would be gratefull."

The 4th amendment protects you from illegal search and seizure by the government. Since the security guard works for a private company, he is not an agent of the government. Basically, if you are on their property you have to follow their rules or you have to leave. If they require you to submit to a search in order to get onto the bus, you either submit to a search or don't ride the bus.

All in all it sounds to me like a poor way for the company to do business, but they can do it that way if they want. I would suggest you not pay for their services in the future.

As a side note, I don't know of any knife that is illegal in Virginia. There are a number of knives that are classifed as weapons, but they are illegal to carry concealed, not to own or carry openly. You always hear people say that switchblades are illegal. Well, if they are there must be case law on it, because I have never seen a code section that makes any kind of knife illegal to own or carry openly.

Link Posted: 7/10/2003 5:07:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Landric:
As a side note, I don't know of any knife that is illegal in Virginia. There are a number of knives that are classifed as weapons, but they are illegal to carry concealed, not to own or carry openly. You always hear people say that switchblades are illegal. Well, if they are there must be case law on it, because I have never seen a code section that makes any kind of knife illegal to own or carry openly.






I was at the Bealton gunshow and some VA State troopers were at the table of one of the knife vendors with a code of VA in hand and made him put away several knives he was selling.

Not saying you are wrong, but it makes me wonder what that was about.
Link Posted: 7/10/2003 5:24:54 PM EDT
Sorry to bust your bubble, but automatic knives are in fact illegal to posess in VA.

Here it is:

§ 18.2-311. Prohibiting the selling or having in possession blackjacks, etc.

If any person sells or barters, or exhibits for sale or for barter, or gives or furnishes, or causes to be sold, bartered, given or furnished, or has in his possession, or under his control, with the intent of selling, bartering, giving or furnishing, any blackjack, brass or metal knucks, any disc of whatever configuration having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, or like weapons, such person shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor. The having in one's possession of any such weapon shall be prima facie evidence, except in the case of a conservator of the peace, of his intent to sell, barter, give or furnish the same.

(Code 1950, § 18.1-271; 1960, c. 358; 1975, cc. 14, 15; 1985, c. 394; 1988, c. 359.)

Again, it's only a misdemeanor...so, weigh your options.

Nstg8r
Link Posted: 7/10/2003 7:25:31 PM EDT
Yeh, I can understand the right to search for me to ride, I also work security. However, he does not have the authority to, detain, prevent me from leaving with my articles, or continue to search if I choose to leave or have my bag taken off property. The fact that the manager told me I could have been drawn on and cuffed just for not following the companies rules. This is against the law since no armed security officer can enforce rules that are against Va or Federal law. IE - detaining me against my will. If you carry on an area you are not allowed to carry on you can be asked to leave. If you do not leave you can be arrested for trespassing. They were saying they could arrest you just because they said they could and it was private property.

§ 9.1-146. Limitation on powers of registered armed security officers.

Compliance with the provisions of this article shall not itself authorize any person to carry a concealed weapon or exercise any powers of a conservator of the peace. A registered armed security officer of a private security services business while at a location which the business is contracted to protect shall have the power to effect an arrest for an offense occurring (i) in his presence on such premises or (ii) in the presence of a merchant, agent, or employee of the merchant the private security business has contracted to protect, if the merchant, agent, or employee had probable cause to believe that the person arrested had shoplifted or committed willful concealment of goods as contemplated by § 18.2-106. For the purposes of § 19.2-74, a registered armed security officer of a private security services business shall be considered an arresting officer.

If you do not commit an offence, he can not arrest you!
Link Posted: 7/10/2003 10:30:27 PM EDT
"§ 18.2-311. Prohibiting the selling or having in possession blackjacks, etc.

If any person sells or barters, or exhibits for sale or for barter, or gives or furnishes, or causes to be sold, bartered, given or furnished, or has in his possession, or under his control, with the intent of selling, bartering, giving or furnishing, any blackjack, brass or metal knucks, any disc of whatever configuration having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, or like weapons, such person shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor. The having in one's possession of any such weapon shall be prima facie evidence, except in the case of a conservator of the peace, of his intent to sell, barter, give or furnish the same."

I stand corrected. I guess I never noticed the mention of switchblade knives in that section since the title makes no mention of knives.

While the code says possession is prima facie evidence of intent to sell, I think that one could easily argue in court that one had no intent to sell. What the law says and what the courts do are often no the same.

As a class 4 misdemeanor, the maximum penalty is a $250 fine, no jail time.

I can't see a time when I would charge someone with that anyway. Who cares?

Link Posted: 7/11/2003 5:29:48 PM EDT
As a class 4 misdemeanor, the maximum penalty is a $250 fine, no jail time.

I can't see a time when I would charge someone with that anyway. Who cares?


I got popped for it once...the trooper wound up with a nice benchmade and the issue was forgotten. Guess he figured a $200 knife beat an hour of paperwork.

Nstg8r
Link Posted: 7/12/2003 1:44:10 PM EDT
My dad use to sell knives and the state police made him take every thing off the table that had a hand guard that looked evil!!

He had one knife that looked like knuckles' they where looking real hard at those and made us take them out of the showplace.
I now have 8 pair

Am I the only one who thinks KogaShuko
got screwed!!!!!!

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