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Posted: 7/26/2003 5:02:48 AM EDT
i 'm trying to find a C3 manufacturer that'll be willing to build an AR/AOW project of mine. I'll pay the transfer ($5) and what not...i'm just trying to avoid the $200 tax to build it myself.

nay help is greatly appreciated. jeff
Link Posted: 7/26/2003 6:07:24 AM EDT
Is this legal in IL? I thought only SOT/class III dealers can have AOWs in IL? If its true I have some new toys to buy then. Their is a guy in Vienna, IL Second amendment gun shop. Don't know much about him,. just that he makes class 3. I met a guy in a gun show last week who was in Chandlerville, IL that rents FA and is a class 3. I will look for his card and post it on here later.
Link Posted: 7/26/2003 6:47:23 AM EDT
Ok, I' not positive they are class III, their card does not say it, but I thought he told me he was at the collinsville show. Rob Werner 217-458-2824
Link Posted: 7/26/2003 8:09:01 AM EDT
Last time I checked (about 6 months ago), AOWs were the only "cool" firearms that civvies can own in Illinois. I say this because I looked over the laws currently on the books when I was kicking around the idea of getting an HK SP-89 and putting an MP-5K vertical foregrip on it.

As far as C3 manufacturers, I believe Terry Dyer's in Illinois but he's an HK smith, not that he wouldn't work on AR but I figured I should mention it just in case he doesn't.
Link Posted: 7/26/2003 8:14:06 PM EDT
Reeeeeally? I didn't know that AOW's were allowed in IL either. If it's only a matter of finding a class III smith in IL, then there may be a short barreled shotgun in my future.

Just curious, can anyone help explain the different circumstances that would result in a $200 transfer versus $5? I wasn't really able to find an answer on subguns, unless I didn't look hard enough.
Link Posted: 7/27/2003 3:07:22 AM EDT
i thought aow's were OK in IL. Now I'll have to check. I know FA and silencers are a no no.

I have a limited understanding of how all the gun laws work, especially in IL. I've been asking a lot of questions around arfcom board.

I think I understand the difference between the $200 tax and the $5 tax for the AOW. If a C3 person "makes" the AOW they can transfer it to you for $5, since they all ready pay a "tax" by having their license. An ordinary Joe can pay the $200 "makers tax" and register an AOW.

My hope was to find somebody that could make it to bring cost down alittle bit.

As I understand IL law on SBS (short bbl shotguns), I don't think IL allows anything under 18 inches. I may be wrong. correction, I'm usually wrong.

I think I'll end up calling the ATF up in Oakbrook or Springfield and try to figure this deal out. When I do I'll post what they say and contact info for them.

Thanks for all the help. If i'm wrong I hope I didn't get anybody's hopes up.
Link Posted: 7/27/2003 9:55:59 AM EDT


It is unlawful to possess any rifle having one or more barrels less than 16 inches in length or a shotgun having one or more barrels less than 18 inches in length or any weapon made from a rifle or shotgun, if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches.



www.nraila.org/GunLaws.asp?FormMode=Detail&R=IL

Maybe the only AOW's permitted in IL are penguns, and other ones that don't look like a gun per the NFA's AOW provision. Sounds like the above pretty clearly states that we're out of luck, unless someone knows something that I don't.
Link Posted: 7/27/2003 11:50:30 AM EDT
camera man,

my thinking was that a virgin (no stock ever attached) AR stripped lower would be registered as an Any Other Weapon, making it not a rifle (no stock) therefore bypassing the law you quoted.

I'm still going to contact ATF and see what they think, as I'm still a little unclear on the whole deal.

I'm still searching the link you provided for anything on AOWs.

thanks for the help
Link Posted: 7/27/2003 12:02:09 PM EDT
this ffl holder spells it out pretty clear.


http://www.ss427.com/steves-guns-and-ammo.htm

Illinois is not a C3 state, so no FA, Cans, or AOW.

I'm depressed, but will check with ATF or ISP for a kick in the nuts anyway...bummer.

Oh, well...I'm sure I can think of another project anyway.

Link Posted: 7/27/2003 12:17:47 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/27/2003 12:37:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Derek45:
www.fjvollmer.com



When did they end up in Plainfield?

They used to have a store in Bloomington, but it closed .
Link Posted: 7/28/2003 1:45:57 AM EDT
here is the law in IL...

720 ILCS 24-1 Unlawful Use of Weapons
under paragraph (7) (ii) "any rifle having one or more barrels less than 16 inches in length or a shotgun having one or more barrels less than 18 inches in length or any weapon mad from a rifle or shotgun, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if such a weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches...

My thinking was that an AR/AOW would be allowed since I would use a virgin stripped lower. In effect bypassing the above cited paragraph.

UNTIL, I looked up the definition of "firearm" located in the IL FOID card act. 430 ILCS 65-1/1 firearm defined..."means any device, by whatever name known, which is designed to expel a projectile or projectiles by the action of an explosion, expansion of gas or escape of gas; excluding, however:...it goes on to list paint markers, flares, bb guns, nail guns, and antique firearm (non FA).


SO...I guess the AOW idea is out. IL sucks.
Link Posted: 7/29/2003 4:45:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/29/2003 4:48:53 AM EDT by Matt_B]
tango_down, here's the way I interpreted that law.

As I stated earlier, I was looking at an SP-89 which is a pistol - that is to say it never was a rifle. The only thing I would want to add would be a vertical foregrip. I wouldn't be adding a stock which, if I did, would make it an SBR which we know for a fact is illegal in Illinois.

I had found a chart on some NFA faq that listed every state in the US and clearly showed what types of weapons were legal in each state (Destructive Devices, SBRs, etc.). The only box that wasn't checked for Illinois was the AOW.

My thinking is if you take an AR-15 "rifle" and have it made into an AOW, that would be illegal. But, if you buy an AR-15 pistol (like the OA-93) and add a vertical foregrip, that would be legal in the same way that added a vertical foregrip to an SP-89 would be legal.

Now, I never got so far in my research as to call the State Police so of course I could be wrong and the data I found in my research could be wrong/outdated as well but it still might be worth making a call to the State Police to know for sure.
Link Posted: 7/30/2003 12:20:39 AM EDT
Matt_B, I think we're on to something.

Nothing in IL law defines pistol, or sets requirements for pistol bbl lenght and whatnot.

this cite lists the FAQ you describe.
http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIF2.html

I'm calling ATF tomorrow and getting a confirmation. I'm all ready $100 into the project (just sights and VG) so I can bail whenever, I just hope I dont have to.
Link Posted: 7/30/2003 4:10:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tango_down:
Matt_B, I think we're on to something.

Nothing in IL law defines pistol, or sets requirements for pistol bbl lenght and whatnot.

this cite lists the FAQ you describe.
http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIF2.html

I'm calling ATF tomorrow and getting a confirmation. I'm all ready $100 into the project (just sights and VG) so I can bail whenever, I just hope I dont have to.



YES! That's the page. I went to rec.guns and poked around for a few minutes but couldn't find the FAQ. I thought that's where I saw it.

I'll keep an eye on this thread to see what you find out.
Link Posted: 8/7/2003 7:57:39 PM EDT
This guy is a class 3 manufacturer and a friend of mine.

www.darnalls.com
Link Posted: 8/21/2003 5:27:34 PM EDT
AHA, just the thread I was looking for....

I asked this earlier on the full auto forum, and they sent me here. I was musing ideas of an SBR AR-15, but it sounds like that is a no go? If I am following this conversation, the only thing in IL that MIGHT be legal would be an AOW, i.e. an AR-15 pistol?

Damn Dumbocrats, they always take our fun away...
Link Posted: 8/22/2003 8:19:45 AM EDT
sbr ar15 is not allowed in IL. the aow thing , i'm still checking on.
Link Posted: 8/24/2003 7:30:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/24/2003 7:40:54 PM EDT by Muddy]
Most AOW's are legal in IL, provided they're possesed in accordance with Federal Law. If what you're looking to do is an AR AOW you'll be fine. I think the only AOW's that will not fly are ones based on 12 guage because IL considers them "sawed-off" shotguns.

You'll need to find someone who has a Type 07 FFL and pays their SOT (referred to as on 02). A Type 01 (dealer) with an SOT (03) can manufacture, he can only sell. I know DSA is an 07/02 but many in IL are not. Rock River might be, as I've heard they're getting into NFA stuff.

I'd do it but my FFL is in IN and you can't transfer NFA across state lines, unless you find an 01/03 that will receive it and do the transfer.
Link Posted: 8/29/2003 1:06:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2003 1:06:45 PM EDT by drobs]
You might want to check with:

www.krebscustom.com/

Krebs Custom Guns, Inc.
1000 Rand Road, Unit 106
Wauconda, Illinois 60084
krebscustom@earthlink.net
Phone: (847) 487-7776 Fax: (847) 487-7778

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