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Posted: 2/4/2006 5:54:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/4/2006 5:55:46 PM EDT by ishoot2live]
The below email was forwarded to me from a LE friend. The story and the pictures illustrate just how easy it is to have a freak incident find its way to you. I guess that Murphy does live in every gun and in every round of ammunition.

Note the bullet hole in the pocket of his 511's.

I'm glad to hear that the officer wasn't severely injured and that he will be ok.

Remember this: "Gun Safety is Everyone's Responsibility."

Be Safe.

Joe

**************************­*********************************************­******
All,

This incident involves a Sheriff’s Deputy in Louisiana this past week. He went to the range and was shooting with a raid jacket (with a draw string) as their policy dictates. He was using a paddle holster with his duty carry weapon and often uses the same holster for duty carry.

He completed the qualification, reloaded the weapon for duty carry and holstered his weapon at the range. When he holstered his weapon the draw string attachment became lodged in trigger guard. This deputy then went some period of time and went home. When he removed the paddle holster the draw string pulled tight and discharged the weapon with the firearm in the holster. The deputy was shot in the outer thigh and buttocks. The deputy will be fine.

Definitely a freak accident, but something we should all be aware of, as we shoot with similar jackets.

XXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXX

Judicial Security Inspector

XXX-XXX-XXXX Office

XXX-XXX-XXXX Cell















Link Posted: 2/5/2006 9:26:45 AM EDT
With a drawstring like that, it was only time before something happened.

Better to have an AD, then to need the gun and find out your jacket is attached to it.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 1:30:51 PM EDT
I agree.

This discharge is another downfall of the Glock.

Please don't get me wrong, the Glock is one of the finest combat handguns on the planet, and I really like them.

On the other hand they are very unforgiving when the operator isn't 100% on top of his awareness and handling skills. Glocks leave very little room for error when the operator drops his guard.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 5:24:04 PM EDT
I am no Glock fanboy, but how can this be a "downfall of the Glock"?

Outside of a handgun with an engaged manual safety, this type of AD could happen to almost any handgun.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 5:28:30 PM EDT
I wouldn't blame Glock.........a certain amount of pressure required to discharge the firearm could be the same for numerous brands. The only ones that might not have been discharged are ones with a grip safety, but when reholstering you are supposed to maintain a firing grip, so just about any gun would have done this.

I am NOT a tupperware fan for my use, but that way of blaming Glock is why NYPD has that pathetic trigger requirement.......displacing blame.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 6:48:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/5/2006 6:50:54 PM EDT by ishoot2live]

Originally Posted By racer934:
I am no Glock fanboy, but how can this be a "downfall of the Glock"?

Outside of a handgun with an engaged manual safety, this type of AD could happen to almost any handgun.



Sig P220 Trigger Pull Weight: DA 12 lbs., SA 4.5 lbs. (carried in Double Action)

Sig P226 Trigger Pull Weight: DA 12 lbs., SA 4.5 lbs. (carried in Double Action)

Sig P229 Trigger Pull Weight: DA 12 lbs., SA 4.5 lbs. (carried in Double Action)

HK USP Trigger Pull Weight: Depends on Variant (carried in DBL Action but can be carried in Condition 1)

Beretta 92/96 Trigger Pull Weight: DA Max. 16.25 lbs., Min. 8 lbs. SA Max 6.25 lbs., Min. 4 lbs.
(carried in Double Action)

Glock 5.5 lbs., (carried in constant Double Action Mode)

Note: Carrying a Glock in "Constant Double Action Mode" is no dirrerent than carrying any other pistol in Single Action (Condition 1) with no manual safety engaged.

Like I previously said, Glock is a fine combat handgun, and I really like Glocks. But the truth of the matter is that if the officer that had the discharge would have been carrying a Sig, HK, or Beretta (just to name a few of the most popular brands carried by LE) in Double Action chances are the discharge would not have happened.

ETA: When was the last time you heard of a LEO shooting himself taking off his/her holster with a Sig, HK, or Beretta?
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 6:57:23 PM EDT
Well my Beretta has been modified and is 71/2 and 3 1/2. Close.....

It is funny though....Glocks are fairly popular and all of the ADs were with Glocks except one.....that was a Wilson. That left a nice hole in a locker!
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 10:35:52 PM EDT
I hate glocks as much as the next guy, but I wouldnt call that the glock's fault either. I'd have to say that the only thing that could have prevented the AD would be a trigger block safety or hammer block safety.

now that I have it written, I guess I could see how somebody could call it the gun's fault, but any gun without a manual safety will do the same.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 11:29:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Blazin413:
I hate glocks as much as the next guy, but I wouldnt call that the glock's fault either. I'd have to say that the only thing that could have prevented the AD would be a trigger block safety or hammer block safety.

now that I have it written, I guess I could see how somebody could call it the gun's fault, but any gun without a manual safety will do the same.



So you are saying that had the officer I referenced in this thread been carrying a Sig, HK, or Beretta the outcome would have been the same? I think not. Unless the officer pulled one of the aforementioned firearms with great force while the drawstring of the "Raid Jacket" was caught in the trigger guard while the gun was secured in the holster, I sincerely doubt the same incident would have occured.

I believe that if the gun had a Double Action operating system (especially if the gun had an engaged manual safety) chances are that those features would have reduced the chances of an Unintentional Discharge (unless the Double Action trigger and the safety had an inherent malfunction).

As my posts in this thread state: I don't hate Glocks. They are fine, fine firearms and I like them.

I will tell you this though: I have personal knowledge of three people in the Las Vegas Valley that have shot themselves with Glocks during the past seven years (one fatally).

I just feel that a firearm with a Double Action trigger reduces the chances of involuntary discharges... whether they be Accidental, Unintentional, or Negligent. Glocks are very unforgiving and as a professional firearms instructor I would not recommend those firearms for just anybody.

It's easy to say that a high level of skill and safety discipline will reduce, or 'virtually' elimate the chance of an unintentional discharge; but remember this: "If you make something Idiot-proof, the world will come up with a dumber idiot."

Once again, I am not slamming the Glock, all I am saying is that more people (LEO's and civilians alike) are unintentionally and carelessly shooting themselves with Glocks.

For some the Glock is nothing more than a ticking time bomb.

Just my two pennies....
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 11:36:22 PM EDT
That particular ND could have happened with ALL of the handguns you just listed.

The original post indicates that he re-holstered his weapon with that cord fouled in the trigger, then walked around that way for some time. Then when removing the HOLSTER, with the weapon still in it, it went off.

1) Yanking a paddle holster out of your pants takes a decent tug - I am sure the the 12 pound force criteria could be met. Might even have been able to do this with a revolver.

2) Why would you not remove a weapon from the holster before removing the holster?


Sure, blame the Glock. The dangling bullshit on his jacket may someday hang up on something else and get him killed.


Lem
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 12:11:56 AM EDT
That particular ND could have happened with ALL of the handguns you just listed.



1911 wasn't on the list......it couldn't happen, unless you dropped the safety.

I guess I"m an old school guy, but I have always found the need for an external safety.

There are a few external safetly retrofits for Glocks, and I for one think it makes the Glock, a better pistol.

Just force of habit, but as second nature, I always flip up the safely on my 1911.

Glad he didnt' hit an artery......



Link Posted: 2/6/2006 1:28:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Lem:
That particular ND could have happened with ALL of the handguns you just listed.

The original post indicates that he re-holstered his weapon with that cord fouled in the trigger, then walked around that way for some time. Then when removing the HOLSTER, with the weapon still in it, it went off.

1) Yanking a paddle holster out of your pants takes a decent tug - I am sure the the 12 pound force criteria could be met. Might even have been able to do this with a revolver.

2) Why would you not remove a weapon from the holster before removing the holster?


Sure, blame the Glock. The dangling bullshit on his jacket may someday hang up on something else and get him killed.

Lem



There are numerous variables on this discharge and we could wear down several #2 pencils trying to figure it out. I agree that he should have unholstered the gun before he attempted to remove his holster (Duh).

On the other hand Lemmie,

If you want to get real technical: If the gun had a hammer like a Sig, HK, or Beretta, perhaps the retention strap on his holster would have kept the hammer from going back and completing the firing cycle.

If you read everything I said in this thread you would know that I NEVER slammed or blamed the Glock for anything.

When I posted this thread I did it as a FYI.

I kind of knew this shit would happen.

You Be Safe.

Joe
OUT

PS: What's in YOUR holster?
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 9:14:50 AM EDT
This "shit" eh?

All I pointed out was that the ND is the result of not paying attention, and sloppy gun handling. And not fixing the drawstring issue may lead to other injuries down the line.

Does a glock have a lighter pull? Sure. Never said anything different.


You ask what is in my holster? a Seecamp converted Series 70 Colt. The DA is about 16 pounds...

and no, I don't remove my holster with the weapon in it.


I have been shooting and handling weapons of all types for more than 40 years. Not one single ND in all of that time, simply because I understand which end the "hurt" comes out of.


By the way, it is Lem. Just plain old Lem, unless you are my lawyer, then it is Lemuel.


Lem
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 10:07:07 AM EDT
I think I am going to trade my Glock in for a Ruger Blackhawk so I don't shoot myself

We had an AD in Iraq. Troop had his M16A2 on burst and hit the trigger and put 2 rounds into his foot. dumbass
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 12:20:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/6/2006 12:22:07 PM EDT by ishoot2live]

Originally Posted By Lem:
This "shit" eh?

All I pointed out was that the ND is the result of not paying attention, and sloppy gun handling. And not fixing the drawstring issue may lead to other injuries down the line.

Does a glock have a lighter pull? Sure. Never said anything different.


You ask what is in my holster? a Seecamp converted Series 70 Colt. The DA is about 16 pounds...

and no, I don't remove my holster with the weapon in it.


I have been shooting and handling weapons of all types for more than 40 years. Not one single ND in all of that time, simply because I understand which end the "hurt" comes out of.


By the way, it is Lem. Just plain old Lem, unless you are my lawyer, then it is Lemuel.


Lem



Lem,

I am pleased to hear that you have never had an AD or ND, as they are both scary and dangerous to say the least. I will announce publicly that I am a card carrying member of the AD/ND Club. You see, in my 30+ years of firearm ownership and handling I have experiencied an AD and two ND's.

I realized a long time ago that no one is immune and they do happen, even to experienced gun handlers. I will say that the AD I experienced was the gun's fault (faulty safety), and the two ND's I experienced were definately due to me. After having either an AD or ND, it certainly opens your eyes.

Just remember this when it comes to having AD's and ND's: There are those who have, and there are those who will.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 8:11:57 PM EDT
You know what's funny? All the panic about not letting cops carry 1911 type pistols due to the fact that they "look" unsafe with the hammer cocked and on safe and all these departments issuing Glocks with no safety and AD's every other day.

At least if the time comes when I have to shoot someone with my Glock my defense will be my finger got caught in the trigger guard and OOPS.
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