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Posted: 12/29/2005 10:12:19 AM EDT
My cousin is a CO at a Norther Nevada prison, and he tells me that they may be going to Glocks in .40 soon. Currently, they are using mostly S$W .38s, with HARDBALL! Apparently, there is no interest in going to performance ammo when they do make the switch. Now assuming that this is true, that the guys who transport prisoners are gonna be carrying 13-15 rounds of over penetrating FMJ when they are out in public, isn't this a public safety issue?
How can we, as the at-risk public, find out the facts and get it changed if it is true?
This is just a brainstorming session right now, but I'd like hear your opinions.
There are more issues to cover here, too.
Like CCW usage, and not having anyplace a CO can lock up a personal weapon. I.E. CO travels from Gardnerville to Carson to work, but can't have gun in car on Prison property. Runs the risk of meeting former "clients" at the gas station on the way in, Wal-mart on the way home, and just about anywhere else. A simple set of firearms lockers would address this dilemna, which is based on the idea that if an inmate escapes and comandeers a COs car, they'd have a weapon, too.
What are the options outside of the COs union for making things happen?
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 11:22:34 AM EDT
I disagree about not having weapons lockers. I have been to a few different prisons and each one had a place to secure weapons. The guards all said the carried back and forth and I never questioned where they placed their weapons.

I carry spare guns, long gun, and a couple of gauges......all would stay in the car except the ones I carry. Never heard a peep about that side either.

I never noticed any of them carrying revolvers either. I will look a lil' harder next time I see a guard during a transport or for road clean up.

I would be surprised if they carried FMJ. They would probably just piggy back on what NHP uses.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 1:06:55 PM EDT
You never know, didn't NYPD carry FMJ in their Glocks until a few years ago?
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 6:12:21 PM EDT
Never heard that before......

They do have that 30 lb. Glock trigger and can only carry certain weapons as back-up or off duty.

A lil' too Nazi for my likings.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 7:33:53 PM EDT
That rumor has been flying around for awile now. I'll believe it when I see it. I can't comment on the lock box issue. The over penitration issue is urban legend, FMJ will not overpenetrate as bad as is believed. The 108gr Talons overpenetrate quite a bit as it is. This is the cause of the trend to go to the 165gr rounds. My .02, Im no scientist.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 8:04:53 PM EDT
I had heard that after that shooting in NYC where 41 shots where fired. Can't remember the guy's name. I don't take this for gospel but this is what I had read. The reason why they had fired so many rounds was because the bullets were passing through him and bouncing off a wall behind him and coming back at the officers so they thought they were being shot at. According to the article these officers were using fmj and hadn't been issued the new hollowpoint ammo that was adopted.

Once again this is from an article I had read. I don't claim it to be true.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 8:58:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RU1096:
That rumor has been flying around for awile now. I'll believe it when I see it. I can't comment on the lock box issue. The over penitration issue is urban legend, FMJ will not overpenetrate as bad as is believed. The 108gr Talons overpenetrate quite a bit as it is. This is the cause of the trend to go to the 165gr rounds. My .02, Im no scientist.


I must respectfully disagree with the idea that FMJ will not significantly over penetrate. Especially in a high velocity round. I don't have the numbers in fron of me at the moment, but you only need something like 95 foot pounds of energy to cause a casualty, and 9mm will blast through 22+ inches of ballistics gelatine with energy to spare. The primary wounding function of handgun projectiles is the energy expended into the target, otherwise it is just a high speed ice pick. I cannot eloquently express this idea, and I don't want to sound superior, but the danger of FMJ's is very well known. Surely our firearms instructors can chime in here and help a fellow out.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 1:53:57 AM EDT
First off guys....they are not guards....they are Corrections Officers....peace officers here in Nevada.CO's have one of the dirtiest, most dangerous, and thankless jobs in Law Enforcement.

It is still common in many state correctional agencies for CO's to have revolvers with the exception of specialized units (SERT, K-9, etc.) due to the fact that most CO's only carry firearms occasionally in the performance of thier duties ( perimeter patrol, outside transport,etc.)Firearms are generally armory issue weapons at most state prisons.Keep in mind that many prisons employ several hundred officers each. The revolver is cost effective for many agencies as far as training goes.None of this I agree with of course.CO's should be equipped with better department issued handguns and have weapons lockers at thier prisons for thier personal weapons.



Link Posted: 1/2/2006 7:26:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2006 7:29:57 AM EDT by GryphonX]

Originally Posted By ANIMUS:
I had heard that after that shooting in NYC where 41 shots where fired. Can't remember the guy's name. I don't take this for gospel but this is what I had read. The reason why they had fired so many rounds was because the bullets were passing through him and bouncing off a wall behind him and coming back at the officers so they thought they were being shot at. According to the article these officers were using fmj and hadn't been issued the new hollowpoint ammo that was adopted.

Once again this is from an article I had read. I don't claim it to be true.




Good, because that isn't true.

The guy's name is Amadou Diallo.

I have read the article, and also heard the story told to me in by Massad Ayoob (who wrote the following article on the shooting).

I like the idea of the ricochets being perceived as return fire - pretty scary concept that would certainly induce the officers to continue firing.

However, the truth of the situation was that the entire fiasco went down in under 5 seconds, in which four officers were firing - in that situation its not hard to add up to 41 shots, with no single officer firing an unreasonable number of shots individually.

Ayoob's recount of this incident followed his having researched the incident in preparation for participating in the trial (in defense of the officers). Considering Ayoob's background, training, professionalism, and reputation, I do take his word nearly as gospel (if not always his advice ).

Its one helleva read, check it out:



It was a tragedy that gripped a nation. In a bizarre but later understandable chain of events, an incident happened in seconds that ruined the lives of four men and ended that of a fifth. Like a chain collision of five vehicles on a foggy night, it was an accident that involved all victims and no villains.

Feb. 4, 1999, approximately 12:40 a.m. Four plainclothes officers of the NYPD Street Crime Unit (SCU) rolled past the apartment building in the Bronx where Amadou Diallo, age 22, lived with a roommate. Officer Sean Carroll, in the front passenger seat of the unmarked Ford Taurus, spotted Diallo standing near the front door of the building in a "skulking" posture as if he didn't want to be spotted by the cops. Carroll told the driver, Officer Kenneth Boss, to stop and back up.

It occurred to Carroll that the man fit the description of a suspect who had savagely raped numerous black women in the area, and was known to wield a handgun. As the unmarked police sedan backed up, Officers Ed McMellon (right rear seat) and Richard Murphy (left rear) spotted Diallo. It occurred to them also that he was acting furtively and trying to avoid their gaze. McMellon in particular was reminded that "push-in" home invasions, common in New York, often involved lookouts. (A "push-in" begins with someone knocking on the victim's door. When it is opened from inside, the armed intruders force their way through. These officers knew of cases where victims of "push-ins" had been brutalized, raped, wounded or killed.)

As the Taurus came to a stop, Carroll and McMellon emerged and approached Diallo. The officers carried shields on chains or thongs around their necks and under their shirts. McMellon flipped his out and displayed it with his left hand, saying to Diallo in a conversational tone, "New York City Police. May we have a word with you, please?"

Diallo turned and ran for the door. The first two officers sprinted after him. Murphy was now approaching to assist. Boss had stayed behind the wheel to cut off any foot pursuit down the sidewalk, but seeing Diallo run toward the building, he jumped out of the car to help.

As the two closest officers were approaching him, they saw Diallo reaching to his right side, tugging in a movement that resembled to Carroll (on the right) a man pulling a gun from his coat pocket, and to McMellon (on the left), a man going for something at his hip. A black, square object emerged in Diallo's right hand as he began to turn clockwise toward the officers. Carroll yelled, "Gun! He's got a gun!"

McMellon cried, "What are you doing?" Both officers went for their own guns as the man whirled in their direction, the black object in his hand looking for all the world like the slide of a small blue steel automatic as it came up toward them, and almost simultaneously, they opened fire.

McMellon, instinctively backpedalling as he fired, fell off the steps. It looked to all three of the other officers as if he had been blasted backward and knocked down by gunshots. Carroll abandoned his two-handed Weaver stance to continue firing strong-hand only as he scuttled crab-wise down the steps, trying to get away from what he believed was murderous gunfire. Meanwhile, the fallen McMellon fired upward from the ground at the figure that was still thrusting the black object toward him. Seeing the same thing and fearing they were about to be shot down as they thought McMellon had been, the other two officers also opened fire.

Diallo slumped to the floor of the porch. The gunfire ceased. It had lasted no more than five seconds. Murphy and Boss rushed to McMellon to see how badly he was wounded. Carroll, the closest to the downed man, moved quickly forward to secure his weapon. To his horror, he found only a black nylon wallet.

You know the rest. The four officers were white. Diallo was a black man, a native of Guinea. The Bronx, and then the city, and then the nation expressed outrage. An unarmed black man had been shot by white officers, who had fired 41 shots.

At the end of January 2000, after a change of venue, a three-week trial began before the cameras of Court TV. The verdict of the mixed-race jury came as no surprise to criminal justice professionals, but shocked a nation conditioned by media and politicians to believe that a murderous act of racially motivated police brutality had taken place. The officers were found not guilty of all charges.

The trial of the four "Diallo cops" was educational for America, but there remain many unanswered questions and many misperceptions. There are lessons to be learned by cops, armed citizens and the general public. None is a new lesson. Each is supported by cases that have gone before.

So Many Bullets

Let's go over the most common questions that have arisen from the public and from media pundits in the wake of the trial.

Why did they shoot him 41 times? They didn't. Autopsy showed 19 gunshot wounds on the body of Diallo, only a couple of them fatal, Yet even after the verdict, people who knew better (Al Sharpton, for one) were deliberately and falsely claiming that the victim had been shot 41 times. He had been shot at 41 times. McMellon and Carroll, the two closest and most desperately in perceived danger, had each run their 16 shot pistols to slide-lock. Boss had fired five shots and Murphy four.

Then why did they shoot at him 41 times? Police are trained to shoot until the perceived threat no longer appears to endanger them. All three of the NYPD-approved brands of 9mm pistol were in action in this incident. They include a Glock 19, a SIG P-226 in DA-only mode and the similarly designed Smith & Wesson Model 5946.




Article continued here:
www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_149_24/ai_65910628
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