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Posted: 12/27/2005 11:32:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2005 8:01:27 PM EDT by variable]
Going through my crap mail and came across the Front Sight Challenge DVD.

Marked:
Enjoy this VIP sneak preview of Front Sight Challenge
Compliments of Dr. Iggy P.
For Front Sight insiders
Not for public viewing

It's this well EDITED 4 man challenge sneak preview? It looks like a cop won the four man comp. shown ???? How is it a sneak preview).

BUT, it looks like it was PRODUCED and the challenge scenario was DESIGNED by Turd Furgeson (Chocolate Squirrel Brick Tamland trophy award winner - stolen from LFNET).

What gives?

Are they trying to get people to come out there?

Will I be hunted down, ex-communicated or possibly drawn and quartered by the fellow instructor community for talking about it? I better call Ackerman or Gunsite and ensure my quals won't be tarnished..........

No additional paperwork whatsoever was included. Anyone else have this evasive info or have any ideas?

Confused to say the least......just looking for thoughts before I call George Knapp in on this one.....

V
OUT
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 12:05:57 PM EDT
Hubby and I each got one. Yup, they want to get folks to purchase their lifetime membership for $1200.

Was the sound quality really bad on your DVD? Wasn't sure, since the sound drivers recently blew up on one of our PCs...
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 1:21:46 PM EDT
I received a 2nd DVD in the mail last week, along with a lifetime training opportunity for $1200.00.

I recently ran across a few people that have paid the $1200.00 and they can't wait to go to their first class. One guy told me that he thought for $1200.00 he was supposed to get a piece of property overlooking the range. I think the guy had his wires crossed and perhaps he was thinking about the school in New York City, that for $1200.00 will give him a "Once in a Lifetime Opportunity" that not only provides great training, but also includes a piece of the Brooklyn Bridge. Now THAT'S a deal.....

Link Posted: 12/27/2005 7:14:13 PM EDT
I think every NRA member got the DVD. Iam a member along with my wife and I signed up my dog a few years ago as an assoiate member and even he got a DVD.I am a little pissed that the NRA would share its mailing list with them especially after all of the lawsuits palced against him. For one I am not pleased.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 7:20:29 PM EDT
$1200 seems like a steal, but is this place going to be there in 3 years?
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 7:29:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By chiz45:
$1200 seems like a steal, but is this place going to be there in 3 years?



The place might be there in three years, but how can you be sure your money will?
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 7:33:43 PM EDT
I thought about it for a few minutes. Besides the speculation of their longevity, figured I'm too lazy to drive that far.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 11:52:38 PM EDT
I took the UZI class 5 years ago and loved it. I got the DVD also and I signed up for the $1200. membership. It's a great deal even if you only take 2 classes you get your monies worth. Of course I'd be pissed if they went belly up in a few years but as long as I get a few classes in first I wouldn't be as upset. I plan on taking the 4 day handgun class in April.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 9:35:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TonyDee:
I think every NRA member got the DVD. Iam a member along with my wife and I signed up my dog a few years ago as an assoiate member and even he got a DVD.I am a little pissed that the NRA would share its mailing list with them especially after all of the lawsuits palced against him. For one I am not pleased.



+1

- Also well stated that they may be "Where" in 3 years.

Thanks for the info - I figured it was a desperation marketing ploy......

But seriously, do NOT release that DVD to just anyone....Hahahahaha

V
OUT
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 1:20:06 PM EDT
I'm a member and an instructor at FS. There are some issues, mainly some folks not being happy with the pace of the development of the site (and understandably so). But there are issues with any organization.

That being said, there are more people than ever coming out for training. I don't think you can go wrong getting one of these memberships, though I personally think the Legacy membership is a better deal because of the handgun skill builder and a couple advanced classes that are included with it.

I thought the Challenge DVD was a little on the cheesy side, but I'll definitely watch when it airs.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 7:21:16 PM EDT
The DVD was cheesy.

I've trained at Front Sight (only2 classes so far) and have purchased memberships for my wife and I long before the DVD offer.

You can all knock the DVD, as it was .... lacking.
But as far as the training, I would encourage you all to give it a chance. Take a class. Then you can see how you feel about the organization.

I for one was impressed by the level of training, the way the curriculum/class is run. I will continue to train there as time permits, as I find it to be a very worthwhile "investment" of time & money.
And as a worse case... You get to shoot half the day at a nice range, and are surrounded by people with like interests in firearms.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 8:43:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 8:44:38 AM EDT by Fingers]
I've taken a bunch of courses out there.

The progress on the facility is slow, extremely slow, but it is moving along. Its been steadily growing for over many years so I don't think its in any danger of not being around in the years to come.

Yes some of the marketing gimmicks are pretty questionable but the instructors and training are very good.

Like someone mentioned, if in doubt, go out there and get some training and see what you think.

I've got some certs for sale in the EE if you are interested.

Dave

Link Posted: 1/10/2006 11:44:29 AM EDT
I was going to get the $1200 membership, but this stuff bugs me too much...

www.pahrumpvalleytimes.com/2005/11/25/news/frontsight.html

www.raids.org/fsite1.htm
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 6:01:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 6:21:01 PM EDT by 444]
Frontsight is a firearms training facility.
Yet, every thread that I have ever read on-line tried to bring up something totally unrelated to firearms training in order to bash Frontsight. When I first heard about Frontsight, the internet gun commandos were bashing Frontsight because THEY said that Piazza was involved in Scientology (I am not sure what that is, or why I should care but..........). Then the internet gurus evolved into bashing Frontsight because they said that Piazza sued some internet gun forum. Now the latest thing for the internet crowd's latest thing to bash Frontsight about is this lawsuit.

In all the threads, and all the posts that I have read about Frontsight, I have only read ONE post that was somewhat critical of the TRAINING (by someone that actually took a class there). His complaint was that he didn't like the Weaver stance and when he took a class at Frontsight, they taught the Weaver stance and wanted him to shoot in the Weaver stance. I even believe that he said they told him to try it their way during the class and if he thought his way of doing things was still better after the class, then go back to what you were comfortable with. Bottom line: among the people who have actually trained there, almost everyone has been very pleased with the classes.

I, for one, am a shooter. My only interest in Frontsight is about the training. . Why would I care about the owners religion ? What does that have to do with me ? I don't care about who Frontsight is suing, or who is suing them. Why should I care ?
I can't figure out why so many people on-line that have no relationship to Frontsight at all want to spend so much time dragging it through the mud. What is in it for you ? Why do you care ?

Several years ago, I bought one of those cheap certificates from a member of this board and took a class at Frontsight. I took their four day practical rifle class. I was "into" AR15s and had previously taken Gunsite's, Basic Defensive Carbine (223) which is a five day class. I went to Frontsight as a total skeptic. First of all, I had read some of the negative stuff on-line (from people that had never been there). Second, I had already taken a class at one of the premier schools in the world (Gunsite).
I thought Frontsight was a wannabe type place with no-name instructors and a half assed facility.

I was wrong.

The first thing that that struck me about Frontsight is that there were HUNDREDS of students there. At Gunsite there were maybe 40 -50 the busiest time I was ever there. Right from the start, I was very impressed with Frontsight no matter how much I wanted to believe that they were not the real deal. I honestly didn't think it was quite as good as the class I took at Gunsite because the facilty itself didn't offer all the various targets and simulators that Gunsite had, but I was impressed enough to buy a first family membership. I figured, the training was good, and since it was close to home, I would probably use the membership. At the time, I wondered if the facility would be there a year from then. But, I realized that a class at any of the big shooting schools is around $1000. If I took a couple classes, my membership would have paid for itself even if the whole thing folded the day after.
By this time, I was a training junkie. As has been said many times before, you really don't know how much you don't know until you take one of these classes. So, I took Gunsite's Advanced Defensive Carbine (556) followed by Gunsite's basic handgun class (250). After those two I took Frontsight's basic handgun class. I can honestly say, that I felt that Frontsights handgun class was better than that of Gunsite. I thought the instructors were better, as was the class as a whole. I also took Gunsite's shotgun class (260) as well as Frontsight's shotgun class. Gunsite's shotgun class was better.
I didn't take a class anywhere for about a year until a couple months ago. I decided to sign up for Frontsight's Rifle Two Day Skill Builder. I used an AR with a TA31F ACOG. All my previous rifle classes had been with an AR and an Aimpoint ML2. In the time since my last Frontsight class, the facility had improved significantly. They were making good progress on the ranges and classrooms. The classes also had improved. I would have to say that this skill builder was one of the best ideas for a class I know about. It is nothing but shooting. It takes the skills you should have learned in the four day rifle class and spends two days drilling those skills all day with an instructor watching your every move to master those basic techniques. I enjoyed the class so much that I immediately signed up for the same class the next month which I took with an AR and my BUIS only.
This is one of the beautiful things about Frontsight that no other gun school in the country has (that I know of). This first family membership allows you to take the class over and over and over without having to pay over and over and over. Your skills drop off dramatically just a few weeks after a class. When you finish the class, you are a bad ass. You are at the top of your game. But, with time, these skills fall off without constant practice. So, every few months, you take the class again to keep those skills fine tuned. Since you can take the class over and over, it allows you to do things like use and ACOG this time, iron sights the next time, Aimpoint the next time, 20", SBR, whatever. If you get tired of that, take the FAL the next time, your M1 the following time, maybe your hunting rifle. Take the handgun class with a Glock, then a 1911, then a revolver.......................

If you want to make excuses why you don't train, then get involved in these internet bash sessions instead of training.
If you want a great training experience, I would recommed Frontsight without hesitation. I am no shooting expert and haven't been to every shooting school in the world. But I honestly believe that Frontsight can hold it's own with any of them. And, unlike 99% of the people posting on the internet: I have been there, AND have something else to compare it to. That doesn't make me right, but IMO makes me more credible than the stuff I read on-line. I can tell you from first hand experience that they have spent a TON of money on that facility and I would honestly say that the facility is better than Gunsite. I fully intend to continue training at Frontsight every chance I get, as well as anywhere else I can.
One of my biggest regrets is that I didn't buy a Frontsight GOLD membership the first time I was there. Even if I had to finance it. It would have been one of the best moves I ever made.
Now, that membership is far too expensive for me to afford. If I hit the Lottery and didn't have to work or worry about money, one of the main things I would do is shoot all the time. I would take gun classes with every instructor I could find. The only reason I don't do that now is money and time. If I had bought that Frontsight Gold membership back then, I could be doing all that now without hitting the Lottery.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 8:53:56 PM EDT
I wasn't "bashing" Front Sight. I have never attended a class there nor at any other professional shooting school.

I actually requested info from them a couple of months ago and hope them the best.

The the promotional video was good until it started to reek of a "timeshare" type sales pitch... I really liked the part were the guy was buying a membership in lieu of a diamond ring for his, as yet undetermined, future wife???

BTW, I know nothing of scientologists other than what I have read on the Internet and seen on South Park, but I still wouldn't drink koolade from one.



Being close enough to take advantage of the free classes a couple times of year with different guns sounds like a lot of fun. I hope I don't regret not getting a membership...
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 6:00:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/13/2006 6:10:06 PM EDT by 444]
"I wasn't "bashing" Front Sight. "
So what term do you use for posting two links concerning lawsuits against them ?

I really don't have a problem at all with people not wanting to go there, or to train. But, I just never understood why certain subjects seem to draw people like a magnet on the internet. This is one of those subjects. I have read countless threads on gun boards from people who have never been to Frontsight, and really know nothing about it, weigh in with their comments. Why ? Yet another question is, why would I defend them ? Well, because I think that training like they offer is very valuable and is something every gun owner should take advantage of. And, I KNOW they are very good at what they do. IMO, people bashing them on-line are possbily causing other gun owners to NOT take advantage of training based on some bullshit posted by a bullshiter, online.

"Being close enough to take advantage of the free classes a couple times of year with different guns sounds like a lot of fun. I hope I don't regret not getting a membership... "
The classes arn't free. As was mentioned, it costs $1200 minimum.
Don't worry, you won't regret not getting a membership because, since you have never been there, you won't know what you are missing.
I personally think that Piazza is over the top with a lot of the advertising he does. But, one reason it probably sounded like a time share sales pitch to you is because you have no frame of reference for it. To someone who loves to shoot, and is serious about training, going to a formal shooting school is better than a kid at Christmas. Any day, any time I would spend my vaction time and dollars at a shooting school over laying on any beach in the world.
I would gladly spend money I saved for an engagement ring on a Frontsight membership. I have been to Frontsight, and I have been married. It would be the smartest thing I ever did.
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 10:39:13 AM EDT
Thanks 444 for the effort you put into your response.

Great points and very useful information that have persuaded me to give them a try if I can come up with the cash and time.


Chris
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 11:15:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 444:
I don't care about who Frontsight is suing, or who is suing them. Why should I care ?



Well, if you are looking to spend the money for a membership it'd be nice to know if the company you are handing your money over to will be around for a while, or will leave you hanging should its assets be sold to cover debts.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 4:52:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2006 8:29:32 AM EDT by 444]
Funny thing is, people have been saying that since the place opened.
It could happen. I remember hearing that most small businesses fail in the first couple years. This has been going on longer than that.
I am not worried.
In fact, since this thread started, I got an E-Mail from Frontsight about another one of their endless membership offers and I upgraded mine and am thinking about upgrading it again.
As I have said before, if you would rather bitch on-line instead of training, that's your option. And good luck to you doing it.
If worrying about a company going out of business is going to stop you, you won't get much done. Hell, Winchester is going out of business. Giant, hotel/casinos on the Las Vegas strip go out of business. I don't think you can be guarenteed that any business will remain solvent.
But, if you buy a Winchester you will still have the gun after they close the doors. With Frontsight, there isn't much difference. Price a class at any big name gun training facility and you will see that four days of quality instruction is going to cost you around $1000. Some more, very few are less. Some "traveling" instructors are less, but someone else is supplying the facilities and all they do is show up to teach. So, if you take ONE class at Frontsight, you will have broken even on your cost of membership. Any other classes you take on your membership are gravy. If you have the time, you can take two a month. That's 24 classes in the first year if you didn't have anything else to do. You do the math.
If you have no interest in formal firearms training that is one thing. If you don't believe in the quality of instruction or the facility at Frontisght, that's another thing. But, if you are worried about this lawsuit, I think you are wasting your time.
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