Anyone here have experiance making their own lowers, either from forged base or from an 80%. If so I have some questions as I am interested in doing this.
I am wanting to build an AR and I am wanting a custom reciever with my markings.
Assuming I have my permissions from ATF "form 1 sitting on desk"
Can I have a machine shop cut out my reciever for me? Or do they also need to be a firearms manufacture?
If firearms manufacture needed can I get one to make it without having them stamped as manufacture or would they need to be stamped as manufacture above the tigger left side?
If i get an 80% reciever can it be sent out for engraving to a non-firearm manufacture prior to its completion.
Should this be stamped engraved prior to polishing or after-yet before finishing
can email or IM reply if wish
I am not a manufacturer, FFL, ATF agent or attorney but will answer to the best of my understanding. You might try the legal forum.
I don't think you need a form 1 unless you are building an SBR or MG, etc. IOW a registered weapon.
Yes they do
I do not believe so.
Yes. Before OR after.
I would do after.
There is a guy in MN who does engraving and will pretty much do whatever you want in that regard. Nice work. Ask on the M16 EE or check there.
I do plan on using this one for a SBR but if i wasnt I would want the option to sell the reciever, making form 1 also required
was afraid of that
I have contacted 2 manufactures and they are requiring a run of 500 units. = cha-ching and the need for a FFL
Guess I am stuck buying a %80 reciever for this and learning how to finish it just hate to pay $300 before all that work and engraving cost. But i guess if thats what i want thats what ill have to do
I just figured if i was going to build a $2500 rifle it would also be nice to have it completly mine
likemopar (Steve Sawyer is his name I think) is the guy from MN that does the engraving. He's a really nice guy, he let me shoot his machine guns for free (with my own ammo)!
Yes, likemopar is the guy. He will engrave whatever you want and he did a fine job on my SBR lower.
Now as for the rest:
I saved this off a previous thread here on ARFCOM. I don't know how accurate it is, etc. At the bottom it describes how to do the finish. Just trying to be helpful but I cannot account for how accurate:
Damn, I cannot get it to copy and paste.
Check on the build your own forum. Click on the Ar-15 heading to get there. It is a thread on how to finish a KT-15 receiver.
The Form 1 is only for NFA firearms. You can make a regular Title 1/non-NFA firearm built up on an 80% receiver without any paperwork or markings/serial number required. It is the opinion of the BATFE that a homebuilt firearm may later be sold provided it wasn't made for the purpose of resale and that it is marked in accordance with regulations (serial number, model, caliber, name and location of maker).
Thanks Guys I might be digging myself into a deep hole but heck what is life if not a pain in the a$$. Anyway just imagine how much I will enjoy this gun if i can acomplish it.
It is my opinion that if you EVER transfer a firearm that you constructed, you risk a federal manufacturing charge.
Prudent policy says, if you cause it to come into existence, it's yours until your kids inherit it.
What could you possibly sell a lower for?
No way I'd ever endure THAT much risk for such a paltry amount.
Crotalus, if all you want is custom markings put on it instead of a company brand, there are plenty of smaller outfits that can make one to order.
You'ld receive it on a 4473, like anything else, and never have to worry about shakey legal ground.
What got me all excited to do this was this posting
I love the idea of the custom marking, but for $300 plus art fee why on earth would i want tom sawyer mfg on it especially since I will use this for a NFA requiring me to also stamp it with my name and address.
anyway I am just trying to obtain as much information as possible. To find out what is possible and not possible to see if i can have my own stamped design, own markins, and myself stamped as manufacture which also satisfies NFA name stamp requirements.
Not to mention cool factor
I guess it all comes down to what each person is willing to pay for. I am not wanting to pay $200+ for my own design but marked as another manufacture yet I am willing to pay $300 to have it completly mine, one of a kind. assuming it can be done.
I unfortunatly am a carpenter and not a machinist and have no access to a machine shop so I might just end up with a $95 RRA lower but I at least wanted to look into it
I also would like to have the expertise as well as a drill press and milling machine. Big investment in all three for some cheap lowers.
I gave it some thought and agree the RRA lowers are a better route to go. Same conclusion I came to.
It's not really as if the .gov is not going to know you have a gun. Awful lot of ways to figure that out. Hunting licenses, CC purchases, NICs, 4473s, etc. They only need to know you have one.
What I would do is strongly consider caching a cheap but effective rifle somewhere no one is goin to find or mess with it. Just in case.
I could write the program for engraving whatever you want. I cant engrave it for you though.
however if you have a design Ill write the CnC code.
I havent quite come up with my logo yet, Thanks for the offer I will keep that in mind
Stop. Do not pass "go", do not collect $200. RUN over to the M16/FA forum on arfcom. Search for "SBR" (since that's the only thing NFA you're gonna build without an SOT).
There may not be a requirement for you to engrave your name an address of a Form 1'd lower that has already been manufactured and stamped with a name an address.
You'll probably want a certified copy from the tech branch, but ask around the forum for more info first.
Whoa, the law is actually quite clear on the subject: you, as the maker of a Title 2/NFA firearm, must mark the firearm with your name and address.
It does not matter if you are making a Title 2 firearm from scratch or are converting an existing Title 1 firearm. The definition of "firearm" in the law cited below only includes NFA items. Existing Title 1 firearms are not "firearms" for the purpose of this law.
The person submittting the Form 1 is the maker. If you are making the SBR from an existing Title 1 firearm, you will be simply reusing some of the existing markings: serial number, model, and caliber.
What is left for you to add are the remaining required markings: your name and address. You are required to do this by law, regardless of what you put or didn't put on your Form 1.
I've highlighted in red the parts that spell out the required markings that the maker of a Title 2 firearm must apply to the firearm.
NFA marking requirements
This was true when I did some heavy research before making my SBR last year, so unless it has changed recently, this is the case. Check out likemopar's work, though. He's now able to engrave where the trigger exits the lower receiver--really unobtrusive. I wish he offered that when I had my lower engraved
First page when you search for "SBR" here at Arf brings up this thread:
AR-15 • M16 - Full Auto • SBR. No requirement to engrave!
Same info found here & here (last link requires a team membership as it's on the archive server).
Yes, it's probably a good idea to get your personal info engraved on the receiver regardless, but again; there may not be a need to so.
If you're in doubt, get it in writing from the NFA branch.
Neither the law, nor the interpretation is clear. If it were, there wouldn't be conflicting opinions from the BATFE's NFA Branch floating around.
Things get confusing after that:
Link to HK Pro discussion on the letter above, along with "clarification" (actually, further confusion) from the BATFE.
Click here for the bottom line: If you utilize the exsisting markings on the receiver, you must mark the barrel with your name/city/state if you do not wish to mark the receiver (until the NFA issues yet another interpretation of the rules, that is).
Edit to reformat edits so they can be understood.
Reading the actual law, I fail to see where there could be any confusion. It is rather clear: the maker must mark a serial number, model, caliber, name, city and state. When using an existing Title 1 firearm, the existing serial number, model, and caliber are already marked sufficiently to conform with the regulations. All that maker needs to add is the maker's name, city and state.
Interpret how you will. Dan seemed to be concerned about the markings, selling the reciever after registration (an SBR can be removed from the registry, IIRC), and "obtain[ing] as much information as possible" etc. While the FA section might have provided better and more complete information, I've attempted to answer the query with facts geared towards his goal...and the fact of the matter is that the ATF doesn't require you to mark the lower receiver (at least right now according to the NFA Branch head).
Crotalus, If you want something custom as far as a logo on your lower, talk to Superior Arms. Again, if you do not wish to have your name/city and state on the lower, you'd be okay to have the barrel stamped or engraved (on a visible portion) with the info (again, according to the latest BATFE ruling... confirm with them first). When you're ready to sell, pull the barrel/upper, remove the SBR from the registry, and sell it as a title 1 gun.
Folks, I know I'm splitting hairs here, but re-read Crotalus' posts, think about what his goal is, and then re-read the BATFE opinion letters before telling him he can't do it, or me that I'm wrong. Thanks.
I agree with your point that the maker's name and city/state can go on a barrel of an SBR... I never said it had to go on the receiver. But in the situation you've described above (removed from the registry & sell only the lower), it's the BATFE's opinion that the receiver would need to be fully marked in accordance with the regulations. See the opinion letters here:
If he wants to build a homemade receiver, potentially use it for an SBR, and then in the future potentially sell it as either a Title 1 or Title 2 firearm, it will need to have the proper markings somewhere on the firearm, and in the case of a bare receiver sold as a regular Title 1 firearm, on the receiver itself. It would be easiest in that case to just mark the receiver and be done with it.
Edit to fix links - the board code doesn't like something in the original URLs
Superior Arms custom engraving.
$120 for the lower (and it's a damn good forging) + $75 for your custom logo, or $50 for "stock" artwork.
ETA: Tapper, glad we're in agreement on the markings, unfortunately the links above don't work. Perhaps I'm missing something, but it seems that the whole 80% lower idea was because:
1) Crotalus didn't want to have a run of 500 units + an FFL, or pay out the butt to get a "custom" logo on a single lower.
2) He may want to SBR the gun. If he finished his own Title1 gun, his info would be on it to begin with, so no need to re-mark it.
If he's got a custom logo/serial (Superior can do both), registers the SBR, engraves the barrel instead of the lower, and then removes the SBR from the registry; the custom logo/serialed gun could be transferred without further markings. That scenario seems to fit all of his criteria (fairly cheap, one of a kind, and transferrable as a non-NFA after removal from the registry without his personal info on it)
Did I miss anything?
That sounds like the best course to take.
Being that I do intend to use this lower on a legal Form1 SBR rifle I do think we all agree it MUST Be marked with
Manufacture / city state of the lower
My name city state
If i was not making it a SBR and didnt ever want to sell it i possibly get away without any of that.
However I do plan on making it a SBR fully registered no problem with any of the required marking
My goal IS NOT to have an unmarked firearm or to bypass any of the regulations. What i am trying to do is LEGALLY have all of above said marking unique to me.
on a standard lower as you all know marked on the magwell is
AR15 A3 or variation
serial number 999999
above the trigger left side is "assuming this wasnt incorperated into the logo on magwell"
My goal is to have magwell marked
my model "whatever i decide to call it" Short Ass Rifle
My caliber 5.56 Fuc NATO
my Serial OU812
above trigger why have stag arms and then my name somewhere else "as to form 1 SBR requirements" when i can just have my info there all in 1
West Bend Wi
P.S i wont be using FU nato or ou812 they are just there for reference
Then I will have a gun totally Mine and not BUSHMASTER, RRA STAG or some gimp horse
I can get the magwell marked as i like no problem $250+ marked reciever, yet the manufacture listed above trigger will not be mine.
I am looking for a way I can legally have it ALL mine, this might be too much a pain in the a$$ but i figure if im going to pay $200 for my logo on the magwell I would just prefer to pay $300 and have the trigger markings mine as well
Anyway I just get the impression some of you think i want an unmarked Lower, in reality i want all the markings I just want them to say what I want
Sorry bud, it looks like I misunderstood what it was that you were looking for.