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Posted: 4/7/2006 6:13:50 PM EDT
Anyone here have experiance making their own lowers, either from forged base or from an 80%. If so I have some questions as I am interested in doing this.

I am wanting to build an AR and I am wanting a custom reciever with my markings.

Assuming I have my permissions from ATF "form 1 sitting on desk"

Can I have a machine shop cut out my reciever for me? Or do they also need to be a firearms manufacture?

If firearms manufacture needed can I get one to make it without having them stamped as manufacture or would they need to be stamped as manufacture above the tigger left side?

If i get an 80% reciever can it be sent out for engraving to a non-firearm manufacture prior to its completion.
Should this be stamped engraved prior to polishing or after-yet before finishing

can email or IM reply if wish

thanks

Dan
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 11:27:30 AM EDT


Disclaimer:

I am not a manufacturer, FFL, ATF agent or attorney but will answer to the best of my understanding. You might try the legal forum.




Originally Posted By CrotalusCo:
Anyone here have experiance making their own lowers, either from forged base or from an 80%. If so I have some questions as I am interested in doing this.

I am wanting to build an AR and I am wanting a custom reciever with my markings.

Assuming I have my permissions from ATF "form 1 sitting on desk"



I don't think you need a form 1 unless you are building an SBR or MG, etc. IOW a registered weapon.


Can I have a machine shop cut out my reciever for me?


No


Or do they also need to be a firearms manufacture?


Yes they do


If firearms manufacture needed can I get one to make it without having them stamped as manufacture or would they need to be stamped as manufacture above the tigger left side?


I do not believe so.


If i get an 80% reciever can it be sent out for engraving to a non-firearm manufacture prior to its completion.


Yes. Before OR after.


Should this be stamped engraved prior to polishing or after-yet before finishing


I would do after.

There is a guy in MN who does engraving and will pretty much do whatever you want in that regard. Nice work. Ask on the M16 EE or check there.

Link Posted: 4/8/2006 2:54:54 PM EDT

I don't think you need a form 1 unless you are building an SBR or MG, etc. IOW a registered weapon.

I do plan on using this one for a SBR but if i wasnt I would want the option to sell the reciever, making form 1 also required



Can I have a machine shop cut out my reciever for me?

No



was afraid of that


Or do they also need to be a firearms manufacture?
Yes they do



I have contacted 2 manufactures and they are requiring a run of 500 units. = cha-ching and the need for a FFL

Guess I am stuck buying a %80 reciever for this and learning how to finish it just hate to pay $300 before all that work and engraving cost. But i guess if thats what i want thats what ill have to do

I just figured if i was going to build a $2500 rifle it would also be nice to have it completly mine
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 3:04:09 PM EDT
likemopar (Steve Sawyer is his name I think) is the guy from MN that does the engraving. He's a really nice guy, he let me shoot his machine guns for free (with my own ammo)!

Link Posted: 4/8/2006 3:58:06 PM EDT
Yes, likemopar is the guy. He will engrave whatever you want and he did a fine job on my SBR lower.

Now as for the rest:
I saved this off a previous thread here on ARFCOM. I don't know how accurate it is, etc. At the bottom it describes how to do the finish. Just trying to be helpful but I cannot account for how accurate:

Damn, I cannot get it to copy and paste.
Check on the build your own forum. Click on the Ar-15 heading to get there. It is a thread on how to finish a KT-15 receiver.
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 4:09:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/8/2006 4:10:04 PM EDT by TapperMan]

Originally Posted By CrotalusCo:
I do plan on using this one for a SBR but if i wasnt I would want the option to sell the reciever, making form 1 also required



The Form 1 is only for NFA firearms. You can make a regular Title 1/non-NFA firearm built up on an 80% receiver without any paperwork or markings/serial number required. It is the opinion of the BATFE that a homebuilt firearm may later be sold provided it wasn't made for the purpose of resale and that it is marked in accordance with regulations (serial number, model, caliber, name and location of maker).
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 5:02:33 PM EDT
Thanks Guys I might be digging myself into a deep hole but heck what is life if not a pain in the a$$. Anyway just imagine how much I will enjoy this gun if i can acomplish it.
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 10:03:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TapperMan:

Originally Posted By CrotalusCo:
I do plan on using this one for a SBR but if i wasnt I would want the option to sell the reciever, making form 1 also required



The Form 1 is only for NFA firearms. You can make a regular Title 1/non-NFA firearm built up on an 80% receiver without any paperwork or markings/serial number required. It is the opinion of the BATFE that a homebuilt firearm may later be sold provided it wasn't made for the purpose of resale and that it is marked in accordance with regulations (serial number, model, caliber, name and location of maker).



It is my opinion that if you EVER transfer a firearm that you constructed, you risk a federal manufacturing charge.
Prudent policy says, if you cause it to come into existence, it's yours until your kids inherit it.

What could you possibly sell a lower for?
$100?
$200?
No way I'd ever endure THAT much risk for such a paltry amount.

Crotalus, if all you want is custom markings put on it instead of a company brand, there are plenty of smaller outfits that can make one to order.
You'ld receive it on a 4473, like anything else, and never have to worry about shakey legal ground.

Link Posted: 4/9/2006 6:17:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/9/2006 6:20:05 AM EDT by CrotalusCo]
What got me all excited to do this was this posting

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=21&t=306057

I love the idea of the custom marking, but for $300 plus art fee why on earth would i want tom sawyer mfg on it especially since I will use this for a NFA requiring me to also stamp it with my name and address.

anyway I am just trying to obtain as much information as possible. To find out what is possible and not possible to see if i can have my own stamped design, own markins, and myself stamped as manufacture which also satisfies NFA name stamp requirements.

Not to mention cool factor

I guess it all comes down to what each person is willing to pay for. I am not wanting to pay $200+ for my own design but marked as another manufacture yet I am willing to pay $300 to have it completly mine, one of a kind. assuming it can be done.

I unfortunatly am a carpenter and not a machinist and have no access to a machine shop so I might just end up with a $95 RRA lower but I at least wanted to look into it
Link Posted: 4/9/2006 7:19:08 AM EDT
I also would like to have the expertise as well as a drill press and milling machine. Big investment in all three for some cheap lowers.

I gave it some thought and agree the RRA lowers are a better route to go. Same conclusion I came to.

It's not really as if the .gov is not going to know you have a gun. Awful lot of ways to figure that out. Hunting licenses, CC purchases, NICs, 4473s, etc. They only need to know you have one.

What I would do is strongly consider caching a cheap but effective rifle somewhere no one is goin to find or mess with it. Just in case.
Link Posted: 4/9/2006 12:17:29 PM EDT
I could write the program for engraving whatever you want. I cant engrave it for you though.
however if you have a design Ill write the CnC code.
Link Posted: 4/9/2006 12:49:15 PM EDT

I could write the program for engraving whatever you want. I cant engrave it for you though.
however if you have a design Ill write the CnC code.



I havent quite come up with my logo yet, Thanks for the offer I will keep that in mind
Link Posted: 4/9/2006 8:03:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CrotalusCo:
...since I will use this for a NFA requiring me to also stamp it with my name and address...



Stop. Do not pass "go", do not collect $200. RUN over to the M16/FA forum on arfcom. Search for "SBR" (since that's the only thing NFA you're gonna build without an SOT).

There may not be a requirement for you to engrave your name an address of a Form 1'd lower that has already been manufactured and stamped with a name an address.

You'll probably want a certified copy from the tech branch, but ask around the forum for more info first.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 6:05:35 AM EDT
Whoa, the law is actually quite clear on the subject: you, as the maker of a Title 2/NFA firearm, must mark the firearm with your name and address.

It does not matter if you are making a Title 2 firearm from scratch or are converting an existing Title 1 firearm. The definition of "firearm" in the law cited below only includes NFA items. Existing Title 1 firearms are not "firearms" for the purpose of this law.

The person submittting the Form 1 is the maker. If you are making the SBR from an existing Title 1 firearm, you will be simply reusing some of the existing markings: serial number, model, and caliber.

What is left for you to add are the remaining required markings: your name and address. You are required to do this by law, regardless of what you put or didn't put on your Form 1.

I've highlighted in red the parts that spell out the required markings that the maker of a Title 2 firearm must apply to the firearm.



NFA marking requirements



[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 27, Volume 1]
[Revised as of April 1, 2002]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 27CFR179.102]

[Page 1218-1219]

TITLE 27--ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS AND FIREARMS

CHAPTER I--BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO AND FIREARMS, DEPARTMENT OF THE
TREASURY

PART 179--MACHINE GUNS, DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES, AND CERTAIN OTHER FIREARMS--Table of Contents

Subpart G--Registration and Identification of Firearms

Sec. 179.102 How must firearms be identified?

(a) You, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm, must
legibly identify the firearm as follows:

(1) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise
conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped
(impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual
serial number
. The serial number must be placed in a manner not
susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must
not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. For
firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002,
the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number
must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller
than 1/16 inch; and
(2) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise
conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped
(impressed), or placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel thereof certain
additional information. This information must be placed in a manner not
susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered or removed. For
firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002,
the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of this information
must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information
includes:
(i) The model, if such designation has been made;
(ii) The caliber or gauge;
(iii) Your name (or recognized abbreviation) and also, when
applicable, the name of the foreign manufacturer or maker;
(iv) In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State
(or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer
maintain your place of business, or where you, as the maker, made the
firearm
; and

[[Page 1219]]

(v) In the case of an imported firearm, the name of the country in
which it was manufactured and the city and State (or recognized
abbreviation thereof) where you as the importer maintain your place of
business. For additional requirements relating to imported firearms, see
Customs regulations at 19 CFR part 134.
(b) The depth of all markings required by this section will be
measured from the flat surface of the metal and not the peaks or ridges.
The height of serial numbers required by paragraph (a)(1) of this
section will be measured as the distance between the latitudinal ends of
the character impression bottoms (bases).
(c) The Director may authorize other means of identification upon
receipt of a letter application from you, submitted in duplicate,
showing that such other identification is reasonable and will not hinder
the effective administration of this part.
(d) In the case of a destructive device, the Director may authorize
other means of identifying that weapon upon receipt of a letter
application from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that engraving,
casting, or stamping (impressing) such a weapon would be dangerous or
impracticable.
(e) A firearm frame or receiver that is not a component part of a
complete weapon at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed
of by you must be identified as required by this section.
(f)(1) Any part defined as a machine gun, muffler, or silencer for
the purposes of this part that is not a component part of a complete
firearm at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of by you
must be identified as required by this section.
(2) The Director may authorize other means of identification of
parts defined as machine guns other than frames or receivers and parts
defined as mufflers or silencers upon receipt of a letter application
from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that such other identification
is reasonable and will not hinder the effective administration of this
part.

(Approved by the Office of Management and Budget under control number
1512-0550)

[T.D. ATF-461, 66 FR 40601, Aug. 3, 2001]




Link Posted: 4/10/2006 8:07:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/10/2006 8:08:10 AM EDT by glenn_r]

Originally Posted By TapperMan:
Whoa, the law is actually quite clear on the subject: you, as the maker of a Title 2/NFA firearm, must mark the firearm with your name and city+state.



This was true when I did some heavy research before making my SBR last year, so unless it has changed recently, this is the case. Check out likemopar's work, though. He's now able to engrave where the trigger exits the lower receiver--really unobtrusive. I wish he offered that when I had my lower engraved
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 8:47:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/10/2006 12:25:06 PM EDT by FMD]
*Sigh* RIF.

First page when you search for "SBR" here at Arf brings up this thread:

AR-15 • M16 - Full Auto • SBR. No requirement to engrave!

Same info found here & here (last link requires a team membership as it's on the archive server).

Yes, it's probably a good idea to get your personal info engraved on the receiver regardless, but again; there may not be a need to so.

If you're in doubt, get it in writing from the NFA branch.

Neither the law, nor the interpretation is clear. If it were, there wouldn't be conflicting opinions from the BATFE's NFA Branch floating around.



Things get confusing after that:

Link to HK Pro discussion on the letter above, along with "clarification" (actually, further confusion) from the BATFE.

Click here for the bottom line: If you utilize the exsisting markings on the receiver, you must mark the barrel with your name/city/state if you do not wish to mark the receiver (until the NFA issues yet another interpretation of the rules, that is).



Edit to reformat edits so they can be understood.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 10:43:43 AM EDT
Reading the actual law, I fail to see where there could be any confusion. It is rather clear: the maker must mark a serial number, model, caliber, name, city and state. When using an existing Title 1 firearm, the existing serial number, model, and caliber are already marked sufficiently to conform with the regulations. All that maker needs to add is the maker's name, city and state.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 11:21:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TapperMan:
Reading the actual law, I fail to see where there could be any confusion you may be clear, but others, including the BATFE are not. Please read on... . It is rather clear: the maker must mark a serial number, model, caliber, name, city and state. When using an existing Title 1 firearm, the existing serial number, model, and caliber are already marked sufficiently to conform with the regulations. All that maker needs to add is the maker's name, city and state ...which, according to the BATFE opinions as contained in the letters above, does not neccessarily have to be on the lower receiver (despite that item being the registered object). It is also acceptable to put the required markings on the barrel as an alternative to engraving the lower.



Interpret how you will. Dan seemed to be concerned about the markings, selling the reciever after registration (an SBR can be removed from the registry, IIRC), and "obtain[ing] as much information as possible" etc. While the FA section might have provided better and more complete information, I've attempted to answer the query with facts geared towards his goal...and the fact of the matter is that the ATF doesn't require you to mark the lower receiver (at least right now according to the NFA Branch head).

Crotalus, If you want something custom as far as a logo on your lower, talk to Superior Arms. Again, if you do not wish to have your name/city and state on the lower, you'd be okay to have the barrel stamped or engraved (on a visible portion) with the info (again, according to the latest BATFE ruling... confirm with them first). When you're ready to sell, pull the barrel/upper, remove the SBR from the registry, and sell it as a title 1 gun.

Folks, I know I'm splitting hairs here, but re-read Crotalus' posts, think about what his goal is, and then re-read the BATFE opinion letters before telling him he can't do it, or me that I'm wrong. Thanks.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 11:59:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/10/2006 12:35:50 PM EDT by TapperMan]

Originally Posted By FMD:
Again, if you do not wish to have your name/city and state on the lower, you'd be okay to have the barrel stamped or engraved (on a visible portion) with the info (again, according to the latest BATFE ruling... confirm with them first). When you're ready to sell, pull the barrel/upper, remove the SBR from the registry, and sell it as a title 1 gun.



I agree with your point that the maker's name and city/state can go on a barrel of an SBR... I never said it had to go on the receiver. But in the situation you've described above (removed from the registry & sell only the lower), it's the BATFE's opinion that the receiver would need to be fully marked in accordance with the regulations. See the opinion letters here:

Page 1
Page 2

If he wants to build a homemade receiver, potentially use it for an SBR, and then in the future potentially sell it as either a Title 1 or Title 2 firearm, it will need to have the proper markings somewhere on the firearm, and in the case of a bare receiver sold as a regular Title 1 firearm, on the receiver itself. It would be easiest in that case to just mark the receiver and be done with it.

Edit to fix links - the board code doesn't like something in the original URLs
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 12:00:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/10/2006 12:29:16 PM EDT by FMD]
Crotalus, FYI:

Superior Arms custom engraving.

$120 for the lower (and it's a damn good forging) + $75 for your custom logo, or $50 for "stock" artwork.

ETA: Tapper, glad we're in agreement on the markings, unfortunately the links above don't work. Perhaps I'm missing something, but it seems that the whole 80% lower idea was because:

1) Crotalus didn't want to have a run of 500 units + an FFL, or pay out the butt to get a "custom" logo on a single lower.
2) He may want to SBR the gun. If he finished his own Title1 gun, his info would be on it to begin with, so no need to re-mark it.

If he's got a custom logo/serial (Superior can do both), registers the SBR, engraves the barrel instead of the lower, and then removes the SBR from the registry; the custom logo/serialed gun could be transferred without further markings. That scenario seems to fit all of his criteria (fairly cheap, one of a kind, and transferrable as a non-NFA after removal from the registry without his personal info on it)

Did I miss anything?
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 12:59:30 PM EDT
That sounds like the best course to take.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 3:37:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/10/2006 4:01:32 PM EDT by CrotalusCo]
Being that I do intend to use this lower on a legal Form1 SBR rifle I do think we all agree it MUST Be marked with

Model #
Caliber
Serial #

Manufacture / city state of the lower

My name city state


If i was not making it a SBR and didnt ever want to sell it i possibly get away without any of that.

However I do plan on making it a SBR fully registered no problem with any of the required marking

My goal IS NOT to have an unmarked firearm or to bypass any of the regulations. What i am trying to do is LEGALLY have all of above said marking unique to me.

on a standard lower as you all know marked on the magwell is

company LOGO
AR15 A3 or variation
223/5.56
serial number 999999

above the trigger left side is "assuming this wasnt incorperated into the logo on magwell"

Company Name
City State

My goal is to have magwell marked

MY LOGO
my model "whatever i decide to call it" Short Ass Rifle
My caliber 5.56 Fuc NATO
my Serial OU812

above trigger why have stag arms and then my name somewhere else "as to form 1 SBR requirements" when i can just have my info there all in 1

Daniel Stokkers
West Bend Wi

P.S i wont be using FU nato or ou812 they are just there for reference


Then I will have a gun totally Mine and not BUSHMASTER, RRA STAG or some gimp horse

-------------------------------------------------

I can get the magwell marked as i like no problem $250+ marked reciever, yet the manufacture listed above trigger will not be mine.

I am looking for a way I can legally have it ALL mine, this might be too much a pain in the a$$ but i figure if im going to pay $200 for my logo on the magwell I would just prefer to pay $300 and have the trigger markings mine as well

Anyway I just get the impression some of you think i want an unmarked Lower, in reality i want all the markings I just want them to say what I want
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 5:33:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CrotalusCo:
I can get the magwell marked as i like no problem $250+ marked reciever, yet the manufacture listed above trigger will not be mine.

I am looking for a way I can legally have it ALL mine, this might be too much a pain in the a$$ but i figure if im going to pay $200 for my logo on the magwell I would just prefer to pay $300 and have the trigger markings mine as well

Anyway I just get the impression some of you think i want an unmarked Lower, in reality i want all the markings I just want them to say what I want



Sorry bud, it looks like I misunderstood what it was that you were looking for.
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