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Posted: 2/23/2006 10:25:15 AM EDT
Dear fellow gun owner:

Our scheduled March 12th fund-raising submachine gun shoot has received a lot of attention. Unfortunately, not all of that attention has been good.

The potential--and I must emphasize the word "potential"--for our opponents to turn this into an ugly situation has become apparent to me.

While subgun shoots take place all the time, this was first and foremost a political event. As such, we are held to a higher standard.

My intention in organizing the shoot was to let you come and shoot some expensive and exotic guns and have a good time, and not to get you involved in a potentially sticky situation.

Perhaps I'm being overly cautious, but I hope you'll understand that I'm doing so with you in mind.

Therefore, I've decided to cancel the shoot.

If you have already mailed a check to the WCCM for the event, I will return your check to you uncashed.

Because this event has received such wide publicity, I would appreciate it if you would forward this email to everyone you know, and also post it on every internet gun-related site you're aware of. Some people had planned on driving great distances, and I want to make sure they're aware of the cancellation.

I'm sure that this is a disappointment for many of you, and I sincerely apologize. I hope you'll understand and appreciate my intentions and my concerns.

Thanks,
Dick Baker
Treasurer, WCCA, WCCM

Link Posted: 2/23/2006 12:53:03 PM EDT
Ouch.
Sorry to hear about the cancellation as I had myself and a few friends who were eager to try out some of those rifles.

I commend you on balancing the issues and realizing the importance of your cause however, and look forward to you one day being able to re-schedule this event.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 6:14:37 PM EDT
No doubt a big disappointment, the funds collected are needed.

We need to have someone set up a shoot like this and invite WCCA to have a table set up for information

Would Shooters Shop consider doing it this way?
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 4:08:54 AM EDT
FYI,

I have many thoughts on this situation. None are fit for sensitive souls.

Jeff

Group won't be gunning for Doyle ouster
Posted: Feb. 23, 2006


Cary Spivak &
Dan Bice
E-MAIL


Drop your weapons!

Plans to use submachine guns to raise money to oust Gov. Jim Doyle have been shot down.

Richard Baker, top dog at the Wisconsin Concealed Carry Movement, thought he could raise a few grand by inviting supporters to TheShooters Shop in West Allis for five hours of target practice, complete with a variety of automatic weapons, a.k.a. submachine guns.

Doyle has twice vetoed measures that would legalize the carrying of concealed weapons in Wisconsin.

"The $40 contribution to the WCCM covers the cost of range time and the use of any or all submachine guns you want to shoot," said an e-mail from Baker promoting the March 12 event. "Your participation in this event won't just be fun. It will also make Doyle's corrupt regime a footnote in history."

Now there's a fund-raiser that should fire up the troops.

Baker even pitched the shoot-a-thon as a way to bring families together, to fire a few rounds and to complain about Doyle.

"There is no age limit for those participating, so you're welcome to bring your sons, daughters, nieces, nephews, etc., as your guests," the e-mail said. But it added this word of caution: "Please be realistic, though, as to whether your young guests will be able to handle full-auto guns. You know them; we don't."
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All was going well, with a dozen or so people already signing up. Baker was hoping to attract more than 100 supporters, on his way to raising $60,000 to spend on this year's governor's race.

But then fellow firearm fanatic Jim Fendry, head of the Wisconsin Pro-Gun Movement, raised questions about the legality of passing around machine guns that can rip off 800 rounds a minute. Fendry suggested that state law might require each shooter, not just the Green Bay dealer bringing the exotic weapons, to get the blessing of a top law enforcement type.

Baker, who tries to keep a low profile - he wouldn't even say what he does for a living, fearing it would alienate clients - didn't want to tempt fate and said he immediately put the kibosh on the rootin' tootin' fund-raiser.

"Having that as a fund-raiser for a political action committee puts it into a more political realm," Baker said. He noted that in the past, he had allowed his customers to fire an "Eliot Ness-type" submachine gun that he used to own. "This is more high profile. I have concerns, very serious concerns, for how Governor Doyle would respond to this. What would he do?"

So the fear of the long arm of the law killed the event - at least that's Baker's story, and he's sticking to it.

But Kevin Nugent, owner of The Shooters Shop, has a different take on why the event was muzzled.

"When we found out this was a political fund-raiser against the governor, I canceled it," Nugent said, point-blank. "We are non-partisan."

The gun store is not opposed to submachine guns, or even allowing the weapons to be shared on its firing range. Occasionally, the range is rented out for bachelor or bachelorette parties, where somebody brings a tommy gun or an Uzi to fire off.

Nugent also would be OK with raising cash for the concealed carry movement.

"Obviously, I am for concealed carry. I own a gun store," Nugent said. "But I like to keep out of the political arena."

Doyle's people are smirking a bit as they watch the pair duel. The governor's handlers will even gladly accept the blame for blowing up the planned event.

"Most sane people would agree that stopping a fund-raiser where they're nutty enough to hand out machine guns is to the advantage of public safety," campaign flack Melanie Fonder said Thursday. "Anytime you have the concealed-carry gun lobby lining up against you, you're doing something right."
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 5:44:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/24/2006 6:23:47 AM EDT by photoman]

Originally Posted By RavenJeff:
FYI,

I have many thoughts on this situation. None are fit for sensitive souls.

Jeff




Same here including that focusing on outting Doyle is the wrong fight to pick. It doesn't matter if Doyle gets outted if we don't hold and then pick up more seats in the legislature. There are 20 people leaving the legislature, thats 20 seats we need to win.

If we can't keep the seats that are going to be vacated by folks on our side and don't pick up any others it doesn't matter if Walker or whoever wins the Govenors masion because he won't get the bill to sign. IMO people are focusing on Doyle and that should not be the case. Afterall you can't get a bill passed if you don't have the votes for the bill to begin with.

The focus should be on retaining those seats of people who are friendly to the cause, and picking up a few more. I don't care if Doyle wins again, as long as we have enough solid supporters of a bill he can veto it all he wants and we can shove it down his throat.


WCCA needs to open up a bit more an look at alternate means to the end. They are too soley focused on making us have to jump through hoops and gain premission and pay for the privilage to exercise our Constitutional Right to Keep and Bear Arms.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 10:36:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By photoman:
The focus should be on retaining those seats of people who are friendly to the cause, and picking up a few more. I don't care if Doyle wins again, as long as we have enough solid supporters of a bill he can veto it all he wants and we can shove it down his throat.




The WCCA does want to keep those seats and gain more. The reason they focus on Doyle is everyone knows who Doyle is and what his position is on CCW. It's easier to point blame at 1 person than to have it spread all over the state. Most people dont know who their reps even are let alone what district they live in.

I need to talk to the dealer from Green Bay and see what we/I can do to get something set up privately, as a fun shoot weekend with proceeds going to the WCCA.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 10:41:57 AM EDT
Amen photoman

Seems they are barking up the wrong tree again

When will they learn?

could rant more about this but I'm not going there today.

BTH out
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 10:42:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MGLouie:

Originally Posted By photoman:
The focus should be on retaining those seats of people who are friendly to the cause, and picking up a few more. I don't care if Doyle wins again, as long as we have enough solid supporters of a bill he can veto it all he wants and we can shove it down his throat.




The WCCA does want to keep those seats and gain more. The reason they focus on Doyle is everyone knows who Doyle is and what his position is on CCW. It's easier to point blame at 1 person than to have it spread all over the state. Most people dont know who their reps even are let alone what district they live in.

I need to talk to the dealer from Green Bay and see what we/I can do to get something set up privately, as a fun shoot weekend with proceeds going to the WCCA.



im on the way

Link Posted: 2/24/2006 2:52:05 PM EDT
photoman, I'm Dick Baker, the treasurer of the WCCA and WCCM. Feel free to attack me as much as you like.

If Doyle is re-elected, I firmly believe that we'll just see repeat after repeat of the 2006 and 2004 veto override votes: Doyle will let X number of Democrats vote for the bill, but will require that the number of votes to override by Democrats falls short.

It's no accident that we've had exactly the number of votes to override in the last two sessions, but then fell short when one Democrat (Sherman) or two (Van Akkeren and Steinbrink) flipped.

This was preordained by Doyle and the Democrat leadership. Right after the Assembly vote, anyone calling Steinbrink's office just got voicemail, right up to the day of the veto override vote. I called several times a day, every day, as did others. Steinbrink and Van Akkeren wouldn't even meet with Darren LaSorte, our NRA/ILA lobbyist. That was a bad sign.

As has been mentioned in other posts, we also need to keep a Republican majority in both the Senate and Assembly. A net loss of three Senate seats to the Democrats will mean our bill never gets a committee vote. Back to the days of Chuck Chvala.

Doyle is sitting on some $11 million in campaign funds as of the last report.

If the gun owners in WI want him out, they're going to have to open their wallets. It doesn't matter whether they contribute to the WCCM, to Green's campaign, or Walker's, or all of the above.

Link Posted: 2/25/2006 6:06:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/25/2006 4:18:32 PM EDT by photoman]
per request.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 6:29:07 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 10:30:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 11:25:40 AM EDT




0 for 2 not the record we like to see. But we could see the veto and fail override comming before it happened. Because what really changed in madison in between the 2 attemps?

I here ya PM turning a right which we already have acording to our state constitution into some watered down restrictive privelege is only one option we can go with. there are other options that need to be explored.

BTW was anyone from the WCCA or the WCCM or maybe the NRA at the Fischer case?
just curious because well it doesn't matter no one there to lobby I guess.


BTH out
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 4:11:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rogueI:
BTW was anyone from the WCCA or the WCCM or maybe the NRA at the Fischer case?
just curious because well it doesn't matter no one there to lobby I guess.



We were there, so yes, there were people from WCCA, WCCM, and the NRA
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 8:24:31 PM EDT
photoman, I inadvertantly hit the "new topic" button instead of "reply."

My reply to you is in a new thread here: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=21&t=224841

Link Posted: 2/27/2006 10:54:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/27/2006 11:09:51 AM EDT by prebans]
Monkeyleg, this is Mike. I volunteered at a number of shows for you before I moved to AZ in 10/2002. (I've also called twice last week-- you're a busy man!)

Your views on always doing things a foot above are admirable and laudable. I respect your desire to play fair, to watch the reputation of the WCCA, and to have WCCA folks act as proper ladies and gentlemen. That's a rare thing in politics today, and I commend you for desiring to do so.

At the same time, our enemies - and they ARE enemies - don't play by these rules. Where is the honor in switching votes to hold the party line? Politics over principle disgusts me. Using a lawful shoot of lawfully possesses weapons..... Ugly newspaper articles that are filled with a lot of BS and half-truths..... The "What about the children" card..... Dragging your personal name through the mud.....

...on a semi-related political note, I won't go into election day tire slashings or Chvala's light sentence.

There comes a time that you have to fight fire with fire. Holding the WCCA to rules of honor that our enemies will not obey just hobbles the WCCA. I am not suggesting illegal activities.

I am suggesting that we drop all of the political correctness.

I encourage you to set a new date for that machine gun shoot. The liberals aren't so much scared of the machineguns as they are of the results-- individual citizens learning that they DO have the right to NFA weapons AND money going to defeat their boy wonder. If they can't shut it down legally, they'll try to shame others into staying away.

The WCCA got shamed. I do not pretend to know some of the pressures, work, and political crap you're going through. As someone who has been protested, I know what it's like. As for Spivak and Bice dragging your personal name through the mud..... I can't imagine how you felt reading that. All that said, what better way to flip them the bird than to reschedule and hold one hell of a great shoot! Hell, call it the "Spivak and Bice Shoot" or the "Sh*t Shoot" and use copies of the Journal-Sentinel as a backstop.

Want t really piss them off? Hold a children's safety class beforehand and let 'em put some downrange on a Browning .30. Get 'em while they're young, and we'll have new shooters (and voters) for life!

I know that you're already stupidly busy. I know that you and WCCA members have families, jobs, mortgages... But perhaps gun shows is only part of the answer.

Do they like to picket stuff? (I remember pickets outside of Badger Guns and Ammo some years back.) Well, we can picket also. "YOUR SUPPORT CONTRIBUTED TO XX MURDERS THIS YEAR!" (XX being the current number of murders in ALL OF WISCONSIN.) That banner will get some press. It'll piss off the anti's, reaffrm the pro's, and make the fence sitters think. Chip away at the Dem's willingness to support anti-rights; pass out informational, EVEN-KEELED brochures about concealed carry wherever Union workers gather. GM in Janesville, Tradesmen, laborers, mechanics... The working man might be Union, but he's generally pro-gun for hunting. (How many work trucks do you see in the woods and at deer camp opening weekend?) Self defense (and guarding all those expensive tools!) isn't that hard of a sell to someone who already likes "shootin' with the boys."

If I were back in WI, I'd volunteer for you. As an AZ resident and now as a Class III, I'll offer you whatever demo guns I have in stock for a shoot when I'm in town. I'm still small, but I'll help however I can.

My bottom line is I support the WCCA/WCCM. Above them, I support you. You've taken on a thankless and tiring task. You've got powerful critics from the outside, and you've got critics on the inside. No matter what they say, no matter what they do-- you're an honorable man who heads honorable organizations trying to do what's right for Wisconsin.

Next year and the next vote will come. In the meantime, let's take off the gloves and kick some ass.

Sincerely,

Mike
Distinction Arms FFL/SOT
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 1:59:43 PM EDT
Hi, Mike. Of course I remember you. I just talked to you a couple of weeks ago. ;)

Once again, the problem with the shoot was having people show up who were just looking for a good time and then maybe have them get arrested. I'm not saying that was going to happen, but the potential was there.

I'm looking at having the shoot in a county where the sheriff is friendly, and would sign a statement that he authorizes all present to "possess and use" the subguns on a temporary basis (i.e., that day).

If that doesn't work, then we'll do other kinds of events.

The number one priority has to be getting people in the legislature who will support a clean bill, and a governor who will sign it.
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 4:34:20 PM EDT
Dick you got screwed on that and that just ain't right.I'll send ya an IM tomarrow sometime9i've been getting calls all day about this).
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 5:50:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Monkeyleg:
Hi, Mike. Of course I remember you. I just talked to you a couple of weeks ago. ;)

Once again, the problem with the shoot was having people show up who were just looking for a good time and then maybe have them get arrested. I'm not saying that was going to happen, but the potential was there.

I'm looking at having the shoot in a county where the sheriff is friendly, and would sign a statement that he authorizes all present to "possess and use" the subguns on a temporary basis (i.e., that day).

If that doesn't work, then we'll do other kinds of events.

The number one priority has to be getting people in the legislature who will support a clean bill, and a governor who will sign it.



Get arrested? I've read through Wisconsin's laws regarding machinegun possession and sales-- heck, it's my business now. :) They'd be on VERY shakey legal ground if they went after folks for MG rental. I have no doubt that it'd create a lot of bad publicity, but the WCCA would probably make a stupid amount of money from the resulting lawsuits.

All of that aside, normal folk don't need to get photographed, booked, etc. I definitely appreciate your desire to keep the shooters out of trouble... (Once again, honorable to a fault. ) If you don't already have a county in mind, do you want me to research CLEOs who are known to sign off / are more gun friendly?

I recognize that the #1 priority is gaining supporters (while working to toss out the anti-rights folks). However, that can't be done without funds. If our enemies work to cut off our funding, they win. We can't let that happen.

If MGs don't work, how about destructive devices?

Mike
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 7:46:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By prebans:

Originally Posted By Monkeyleg:
Hi, Mike. Of course I remember you. I just talked to you a couple of weeks ago. ;)

Once again, the problem with the shoot was having people show up who were just looking for a good time and then maybe have them get arrested. I'm not saying that was going to happen, but the potential was there.

I'm looking at having the shoot in a county where the sheriff is friendly, and would sign a statement that he authorizes all present to "possess and use" the subguns on a temporary basis (i.e., that day).

If that doesn't work, then we'll do other kinds of events.

The number one priority has to be getting people in the legislature who will support a clean bill, and a governor who will sign it.



Get arrested? I've read through Wisconsin's laws regarding machinegun possession and sales-- heck, it's my business now. :) They'd be on VERY shakey legal ground if they went after folks for MG rental. I have no doubt that it'd create a lot of bad publicity, but the WCCA would probably make a stupid amount of money from the resulting lawsuits.

All of that aside, normal folk don't need to get photographed, booked, etc. I definitely appreciate your desire to keep the shooters out of trouble... (Once again, honorable to a fault. ) If you don't already have a county in mind, do you want me to research CLEOs who are known to sign off / are more gun friendly?

I recognize that the #1 priority is gaining supporters (while working to toss out the anti-rights folks). However, that can't be done without funds. If our enemies work to cut off our funding, they win. We can't let that happen.

If MGs don't work, how about destructive devices?

Mike




I like the way you think


And I also agree, from my conversations with a DA, that they would be on very very shakey grounds trying to go after someone for renting an MG or renting it out, especially if said onwner of the MG is there.
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 12:19:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/28/2006 12:39:25 AM EDT by AdrianUSP9]
Photoman said:

WCCA needs to open up a bit more an look at alternate means to the end. They are too soley focused on making us have to jump through hoops and gain premission and pay for the privilage to exercise our Constitutional Right to Keep and Bear Arms.

EXACT-O-FUCKING LOUTELY!!!

Three years of groveling for your rights has worked so well!! [whiny voice] Well the Governor, well the deomcrats....[/whiny voice] Excuses don't matter - only results.

I am not at all surprised of the MG shoot cancellation. It's the same ball-less response I got from EVERY WI gun group when I proposed open carry marches. I was actually pretty impressed that someone had the balls to get something like this going in the first place.

Buck up and fight for your rights and drop the political correct bullshit. It's like you're ashamed of what you stand for. "We can't shoot MGs because it will make us look bad." "We can't open carry because we might get a DC ticket." You know what, the people you are going to offend with MG shoot or open carry are the soft assholes who wouldn't support you anyways. They are the people who live their lives in denial.

Luckily, it doesn't matter what the majority of the soft assholes think, becuase our government protects the rights of the minority as well. It is YOUR RIGHT to carry a firearm in Wisconsin (WI Constitution Article 1, section 25). Go f*cking do it! Gov. Doyle would shit a brick if he woke up and realized that ANYONE who wanted to could legally open carry, and he couldn't do a damned thing about it.

Maybe you haven't thought of this, but the government really doesn't want you carrying weapons (hey, maybe THATS why the PPA has failed TWICE!) No one from the Doyle administration is going to come out and invite you to shoot MGs or to open carry. Someone is going to have to step out on a limb and shake some shit up.

The WCCA (and everyone else) has a one-pronged attack. The legislature. If you want to "win the war" you need to diversify your forces. YOU NEED TO ATTACK THE LEGAL ASPECTS OF CONCELAED CARRY AS WELL. STATE V. HAMDAN. That is how this all got started. A LEGAL CHALLENGE. People have lost sight of the fact that the Supreme Court said the legislature had to e clear this matter up. They haven't. It is time to go back to the courts, or at least GET THE LEGAL ANGLE SOME MEDIA COVERAGE. The antis have been controlling the argument, and turned it into a "crime control" v. "blood in the streets argument." The way to respond to this is: "The SC ruled that individuals have the right to carry firearms for security and defense. That is not a debatable issue. I WILL CARRY MY FIREARM TODAY. The issue at hand is HOW we will do so. In plain sight, where anyone who may legally purchase a gun can carry without training or a background check (the current situation TODAY) or concealed, where one must complete training and a background investigation. The choice is up to the legislature, but until then, I'll carry my gun thank you very much." That is all the comprimise you need, and all the comprimise you should allow.

You have to stop worrying about offending people, and goveling for your rights. Dick, I think you're a great guy, and I know everyone here appreciates all the work you've done for the PPA, but if you're in a position where open carry may offend your clients, or where a MG shoot may offend your clients, then you might have to make a choice. Perhaps its time for someone else to step in and take WCCA the "next step." Then again, maybe there is no one else who wants to do the thankless job you do, which, in that case, WI CCW is really screwed and no cares enough to take on some responsibility.

Anyways, do what you want. I can carry concealed in WI, and if you don't put the open carry proposal to work, its your own loss. What frustrates me, from an outsiders perspective, is that fact that you are all letting yourselves get screwed out of your rights. Heck, you're fighting for "new rights" (CCW" when you're not even exercising the rights you have! (open carry and free speech!)

Open your eyes. It's a multi-front fight. You are always going to have asshole politicians who will veto a law for political reasons. You're not going to get a 2/3 majority, and defeating Doyle is not going to be easy. One of the cardinal rules of gunfighting is "have a back up plan because the first one won't work." What is your backup plan, cause plan A has failed. TWICE.
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 6:38:06 AM EDT
I couldn't agree more with Adrian.

BTW its THREE times not two. Chavala, Sherman and the Twins.

I sure hope the "Fisher" case is a positive development because its clear that the "Pro Gun" movement in Wisconsin is a toothless tiger. I'll huff and I'll puff and then I'll back down.

Jeff
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 7:46:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/28/2006 7:52:28 AM EDT by photoman]

Originally Posted By RavenJeff:
I couldn't agree more with Adrian.

BTW its THREE times not two. Chavala, Sherman and the Twins.

I sure hope the "Fisher" case is a positive development because its clear that the "Pro Gun" movement in Wisconsin is a toothless tiger. I'll huff and I'll puff and then I'll back down.

Jeff



That was a little beyond anyones control at the time though. However it perfectly illustrates what could very well happen if to much focus is put on getting rid of Doyle and not enough is put on keeping/winning additional seats in the Senate and Assembly.

I had the chance this past weekend to talk to Sen. Stepp in person and thank her for everything she has done for us, and she mentioned the need to get Doyle out to get the PPA passed. I mentioned the same thing to her that I have been saying here, what happens if we focus on getting rid of doyle, but neglect the Assembly and Senate elections and lose a couple seats in the senate. What we get is a Govenor that will sign the PPA, but no chance of getting the PPA out of commitee in the senate, then where are we? Stuck just like the first time. And ya know what she said in responce to that, "thats true".
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 1:35:11 PM EDT
photoman, I made you an offer in my IM to you to come up with ideas and implement them. Are you ready to do that?

As for the MG shoot, it's not over. I'm going to pursue other counties where, as prebans suggested, the sheriff at least signs off on Form 4's.

AdrianUSP9: "Perhaps its time for someone else to step in and take WCCA the "next step." Then again, maybe there is no one else who wants to do the thankless job you do, which, in that case, WI CCW is really screwed and no cares enough to take on some responsibility."

Maybe you're right on either or both points. If there's someone else who has better ideas, I would have no objection to stepping down.

BTW, photoman, since you and Kathy Stepp are on such good terms, ask her why she introduced an amendment in Joint Finance to allow businesses to prohibit employees from having guns in their cars in employee parking lots.
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 2:33:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/28/2006 2:36:58 PM EDT by photoman]

Originally Posted By Monkeyleg:

BTW, photoman, since you and Kathy Stepp are on such good terms, ask her why she introduced an amendment in Joint Finance to allow businesses to prohibit employees from having guns in their cars in employee parking lots.


I don't know if I'd call it good terms this probably the third time I've seen her, and the first two were back when she first ran, I just had the oppertunity to talk to her is all, ya take it when you can get it, and if you have something to say you say it.

But if I get the chance to meet her again, I shall do just that. In the mean time if you have some more info on what it's attached to(bill number would be nice) attached to and what the amendment number is. I'd like to know more about it before I go asking her questions. And I will ask.
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 3:15:02 PM EDT
photoman, the amendment was to SB403, the Personal Protection Act. The amendment was voted down in the Joint Finance committee hearing.

I'm not trying to beat up on Kathy Stepp. Far from it. She's been one of the most ardent supporters.

But there's my point: there's a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes the most people don't get to see, they don't get the why's or the wherefore's, or all the personal stuff that really drives this. (There weren't supposed to be amendments added to the bill in Joint Finance, but the chairman allowed amendments. Why?).

It's taken years for the WCCA to be accepted in the process, and to actually have input. And to find out what's really going on.

For those of you who keep saying that we shouldn't be focusing on Doyle alone, but should be focusing on getting solid supporters elected to the Senate and Assembly, maybe I haven't made myself clear: we're trying to raise money for both the gubernatorial campaign as well as Senate and Assembly campaigns.

Also, photoman, you didn't answer my question about whether you're willing to do something to help.



Link Posted: 2/28/2006 3:15:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AdrianUSP9:
The WCCA (and everyone else ) ...



I think the part in red should be noted.

Most everyone knows where I stand, but I'd like to take a big step back, eat some crow, and offer Dick Baker my sincerest (and public) apology.

I have been a vocal critic of the pro-gun "leadership" for a while now. I have often included Dick by name in my criticism... and I think I've done him a disservice by doing so.

Unfortunately, the disagreements I've had with the method of getting to the goal (often vehement) have led me to darn near drop out of the volunteerism and financial contributions towards the cause. While we may not see eye-to-eye on the way to get there, I have no doubt of Dick's (and WCCA's) dedication to the goal of legal CCW in Wisconsin.

Dick, I’m glad you’re opening things up to the grassroots for suggestions, but please don’t be surprised if a bunch of us have our own “pet” ideas. I know both Adrian and I have been exploring the open carry question (from different perspectives), along with possible remedies through the court system for quite a while now. All have had less-than-stellar acceptance (read: outright derision) from the WI pro gun community.

The lack of interest in the Fisher case was (and is) appalling to me. There were five people from this board, and maybe one other “pro gun” person in the gallery on Thursday. I found it interesting that Jim Fendry claims he was “listening to it on the internet” (but botched every salient fact of the case while trying to describe it on Saturday), while John Wilcox (who filed the NRA’s amicus brief) was setting up for the Thursday NRA fundraising banquet. I guess sending a letter was enough.

Let me restate that for emphasis:

Five members of this board were able to make the most important WISC case dealing with CCW since Hamdan, while two of Wisconsin’s most visible pro gun “leaders” were too busy doing something else.

Dick, I’m sorry. I’m sorry that you’ve become the whipping boy and the general target of the grassroots’ frustration (including mine) with the malaise affecting our leadership.

You deserve better, and so do we.
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 4:05:24 PM EDT
"Dick, I’m glad you’re opening things up to the grassroots for suggestions, but please don’t be surprised if a bunch of us have our own “pet” ideas."

FMD, I've been asking people repeatedly for ideas. I sent out an email to everyone on our list weeks ago, asking people to come up with ideas for events, take the initiative, and run with them.

So far, the response has been pretty dismal.

As for the Fisher hearing, one of our volunteers is a county prosecutor. He was there on "official" business, as he was in the Hamdan case. And I know he'll have some interesting perspectives.

I had planned on attending, until this whole firestorm over the subgun shoot erupted. When Spivak and Bice called on Wednesday, I knew there were serious problems.

"You deserve better, and so do we."

I'm not entirely sure how to interpret that statement, but I'll assume that it was at least a bit positive. ;)


Link Posted: 2/28/2006 4:52:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Monkeyleg:
FMD, I've been asking people repeatedly for ideas. I sent out an email to everyone on our list weeks ago, asking people to come up with ideas for events, take the initiative, and run with them.

So far, the response has been pretty dismal.



I can tell you why I didn't respond (for better or worse). I've got some serious issues with political fundraising (I am a "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington" idealist ), and it seems that those were the only ideas you were looking for.


As for the Fisher hearing, one of our volunteers is a county prosecutor. He was there on "official" business, as he was in the Hamdan case. And I know he'll have some interesting perspectives.


A DA/Prosecutor? Umm, I'm glad to hear that.

I'd love to get his perspective on a bunch of things (hopefully he won't remember me as one of the five scruffy guys from the back of the gallery at Fisher).


I had planned on attending, until this whole firestorm over the subgun shoot erupted. When Spivak and Bice called on Wednesday, I knew there were serious problems.


Already explained. I don't know what JF was doing (he sure wan't paying attention to the orals if he was listening), but I'm pretty sure JW was taking care of the "Freinds of the NRA" banquet in Oconomowoc. I had just enough time to run back from Madison, pick up the wife, get over there and sit down for dinner. I don't remember seeing Zien or Gunderson at the Fisher orals either.

Go figure.


"You deserve better, and so do we."

I'm not entirely sure how to interpret that statement, but I'll assume that it was at least a bit positive. ;)



You deserve better than our criticism for your hard work. We (this includes you, Dick) deserve better from our elected officials and the paid(?) representatives of the NRA, WIPGM, and the WRPA.

I don't know if those are positive statements, but I tend to shoot from the hip.

BTW: Check your email. It might be a while before I respond to a reply though. I should be packing for Indianapolis right now.


Link Posted: 2/28/2006 8:17:11 PM EDT
FMD, we've had a pro-gun, pro-CCW prosecutor in our group for several years. For obvious reasons, he wants to remain anonymous.

After the Hamdan decision in 2003, he looked at the court's decision, and said he could still get a prosecution if he wanted to. Emphasis on "if he wanted to." He won't.

He's also given his advice on open carry marches and other "in-your-face" events.

I've just spent the last couple of hours trying to call in favors from legislators to help get another MG shoot going, and doing so without having Doyle's goons bust everyone there.

How do you call in "favors?"

By doing favors for your candidate first. By doing more than the others. By making it known that you'll do anything and everything to help that candidate get elected.

This is where I'm sorely disappointed with people who complain about not having solid CCW supporters in Madison.

Anyone who has worked very hard on a campaign will tell you the toll that it takes on the candidate and his family. To be honest, I don't know why these folks do it. I wouldn't subject my wife to the kind of abuse that opponents and the media (or aren't they the same?) dish out.

I don't know how many times I have to repeat this, but I will again: if you want an honest, pro-gun, pro-CCW candidate elected, then you help that candidate.

It's such a simple formula. The problem with most folks is that, when that Saturday afternoon literature distribution time rolls around, or when it's time to work some guns shows handing out literature, or when it's time to spend a few hours dropping off yard signs...I'll be damned if most folks don't have to wash their hair or mow the lawn instead.

The other side of the equation is money. No matter how good your candidate is, he/she will not be elected if there's no money for literature or media buys.

That's the "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington" idealism hitting the brick wall of reality.

No money, no victory.

And it gets even dirtier than that. One party or another may promise the front-runner money but, if said front-runner doesn't toe the party line...no money. Hang him out to dry as an example of what happens to "mavericks."

It's so damn dirty that I feel it's rubbing off on everyone else in the WCCA.

But how else to get our supporters elected?

A full-page ad in one edition of the Sunday Milwaukee Journal Sentinel's main section is somwhere around $25,000. For one single page.

Years back, I advised a candidate I was working for to buy a full-page ad in the JS for the Sunday before the election. Just buy the space, months ahead of time. Because I knew his opponent, who had far more money, would start running attack ads on TV the Friday before. It was the only chance my candidate would have to respond.

He didn't buy the space ahead of time. His opponent, the incumbent, ran the TV ads. And our guy lost.

Almost to a person, everyone here is arguing the merits of concealed carry, or at least the constitutionality of CCW.

In Madison, they don't care.

And, apparently here on AR15.com, people don't seem to care about which party is in power. Some folks just don't understand that, even if a pro-gun, pro-CCW Democrat is elected, the Democrat leadership won't beat them up so bad that said Democrat will flip on a veto override vote.

Back in 2004, a junior Democrat senator voted for the veto override. After the vote, she was seen coming out of Jon Erpenbach's office in tears.

The five folks you mentioned who showed up at the Fisher arguments seem to think the state SC is going to hand down a ruling in our favor.

Maybe, maybe not. I'd bet not.

But it reminds me of the scene from Full Metal Jacket, when Gunnery Sergeant Hartman screams, "That's right, Private Pyle! Don't make any effort to get over that obstacle yourself! If God wanted you over that obstacle, He'd miracle your ass up there!"

Too many people who want immediate gratification, but without having to work for it.

As of the January Continuing Reports filed with the State Elections Board, Doyle had something like $11 million in his account. The amounts reported by Green and Walker combined were less than half that.

The idea of the subgun shoot was to raise $4000 to $8000 in a single event. Multiply that event by two or four or five or six, and we can be at the maximum $42,000+ for the governor's race. On top of that, we need to max out contributions to Assembly and Senate candidates. Max for Assembly is $500. Max for Senate is $1000.

We've already maxed out contributions for many candidates up for re-election.

This is all political, get it? Jim Kreuser, Democrat minority leader of the Assembly, voted for this bill in 2002. Now he's on Doyle's team.

For those of you who think I've been playing "nice:" you have no idea what I've been trying to put together. If I'd had just a few more weeks to work on things, we wouldn't have seen a single Democrat flip.

But, I'm sorry. I can't mention on this forum or any other what I was trying to do.

After all, it was from AR15.com that Spivak and Bice got their news.

<­BR>

Link Posted: 2/28/2006 10:26:17 PM EDT
Just one more point I would like to offer, this concerning Jim Fendry.

The first time I met Jim was back in about 1980 or so, when I was standing at the counter of the now-defunct Flintrop Arms on 41st and National, buying a Ruger .22.

Jim was being recruited by state gun groups to represent them in Madison.

In recent years, I've been with Jim at many legislative votes; he's been there for all of them.

One of the most remarkable things I noticed about Jim is that every last person in the Capitol--from the Senate leader to one of the kids at the information desk---knows his name. What's even more remarkable is that Jim knows all their names. And that, despite their differences, even opponents of pro-gun laws admire Jim.

Jim Fendry has earned the respect of his friends as well as his opponents because he has always been honest with both.

For over 25 years, Jim Fendry has made possible what we now take for granted: the RKBA amendment, the pre-emption law, the range protection law, and more.

Before the phrase "24/7" was even coined, Jim worked those hours.

And every gun owner in WI should thank him.



Link Posted: 3/1/2006 3:38:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By photoman:

I like the way you think

And I also agree, from my conversations with a DA, that they would be on very very shakey grounds trying to go after someone for renting an MG or renting it out, especially if said onwner of the MG is there.



Thank you. We've got a DD manufacturer down the road-- he's re-armed such wonderful things as 3" naval guns (see the pic in SAR) and a 90mm howitzer. While I don't believe that there's enough space on any range in WI to touch those boys off, there ought to be enough room some place to handle 40mm.

Turning to MGs, the owner of the gun must always be present. My ATF inspector said that the owner should be in unaided line of sight (exempting eye glasses and contact lenses) of the gun at all times. He stated that the line of sight thing is nowhere in statute and nowhere in any rules, but that it'd make it HELL for any cop to affect an arrest, any DA to bring charges, and any jury to convict.

Mike
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 3:43:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Monkeyleg:

But, I'm sorry. I can't mention on this forum or any other what I was trying to do.

After all, it was from AR15.com that Spivak and Bice got their news.




Here's an idea-- we need a secure forum. It needs to be closed to anyone who cannot be vouched for, isn't known, whatever. I have no doubt that such a high level of security will lock out some true RKBA supporters.

But how can we plan if we have to watch for spies?

Mike
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 5:15:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 6:33:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BulletcatchR:

Here's an idea-- we need a secure forum. It needs to be closed to anyone who cannot be vouched for, isn't known, whatever. I have no doubt that such a high level of security will lock out some true RKBA supporters.



The HTF can only go so far. Do not fool yourself that any internet forum can be secure.

I see the one of the main benefits of the HTF as facilitating F2F meetings.

It's the only way to be secure in your dealings.

bulletcatchR



Half agreed, half disagreed. Obviously, the AR15.Com HTF can serve as a public forum. It can serve as a VERY useful tool when used for those purposes. However, it's relatively easy to create some random secure forum elsewhere and keep access restricted to those who have some through some sort of verification process.

Mike
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 6:55:08 PM EDT
Here's an antiquated but useful device for private communications: the telephone.

Link Posted: 3/2/2006 9:13:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/2/2006 9:14:13 AM EDT by prebans]

Originally Posted By Monkeyleg:
Here's an antiquated but useful device for private communications: the telephone.




Good, but no so good for getting a bunch of people on at once to come up with ideas, bounce them off of each other, trade information quickly, etc.

Oh, and someone (cough) has to answer their phone first.

Mike
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 9:37:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By prebans:

Originally Posted By Monkeyleg:
Here's an antiquated but useful device for private communications: the telephone.




Good, but no so good for getting a bunch of people on at once to come up with ideas, bounce them off of each other, trade information quickly, etc.

Oh, and someone (cough) has to answer their phone first.

Mike



I can setup a secure server with either forums or a chatroom, or both. Just let me know.
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 11:42:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DavidK:
I can setup a secure server with either forums or a chatroom, or both. Just let me know.



This is something to consider. David, would it be like a mIRC private chatroom? Remember, some people use MAC's. Not really a problem because there are chat programs for them that are compatible with mIRC.
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 12:43:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MGLouie:

Originally Posted By DavidK:
I can setup a secure server with either forums or a chatroom, or both. Just let me know.



This is something to consider. David, would it be like a mIRC private chatroom? Remember, some people use MAC's. Not really a problem because there are chat programs for them that are compatible with mIRC.



It would be similar to mIRC but not mIRC becasuse mIRC is about one of the most insecure pieves of software ever made ;)

It would be a private program, that I wouldn't distribute the name out on the internet to help prevent security breaches.

You'd have to access the website via username/password before even getting into the chat program. At least that's the way I'd set it up.

Let me know guys :)
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 2:49:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 3:12:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DavidK:
Let me know guys :)



I like it
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 8:19:03 PM EDT
"Good, but no so good for getting a bunch of people on at once to come up with ideas, bounce them off of each other, trade information quickly, etc."

That depends, prebans. As I mentioned, at least part of the information that Spivak and Bice had came from AR15.com.

I know you. I know one or two other people who've been on this thread.

Beyond that, neither you nor I know anyone other than by their usernames.

Who do you trust?

The core group of WCCA volunteers had a few chat sessions in a secure forum back last fall. The invitations were sent out to those who had worked at least one, if not more, gun shows.

I know that anti's, including members of Governor Doyle's staff and folks from the Brady Bunch, are on the general email alert list. There's no way to filter them out.

The only way I can figure how to filter out the anti's is by only inviting those people whom I have on record as having worked for the cause.

If you have another suggestion, please let me know.

BTW, I think you might find the following amusing:

Before the Assembly and Senate votes, I got a call at about 6:45 am. Here's how it went:

Me: "Hello, Dick Baker."

Her: "Is this the Wisconsin Concealed Carry Association?"

Me: "Yes, it is. How can I help you?"

Her: "Well, I just wanted to let you know that you people are total assholes."

Me: "Thanks for your opinion."

I dialed *69 and was really amazed that this peacenik didn't even know how to block a crank call. I got her phone number. A reverse search on anywho.com brought up her name and address.

I called the phone company, gave her name, address, phone number, city, state and zip code, and filed a complaint.

Think about how stupid this bitch was: she called the phone number for a group that she's convinced wants to let everybody "pack heat," shoot each other in parking lots, and generally destroy her safe little world.

But she doesn't have the smarts to block her phone number? From a group that she fears?

That's like calling Sammy "The Bull" Gravano and telling him that you're going to out him to the mob and collect the reward, and then leaving your phone number on his caller ID.

Our opponents are not smart.
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 9:42:48 PM EDT
Just one other point:

I know it sounds like I'm whining. Maybe so, a little bit. Maybe more than a little bit.

But the fact is that it's very hard to recruit dependable volunteers, volunteers who realize that this isn't a one-year fight, or a two-year fight, or a six-year fight.

Hell, it took Texas---Texas!!!---ten years to get a shall-issue bill passed.

The first shall-issue bill for Wisconsin was introduced in 1992. And it sat, and sat, and sat, until the 2001 session.

This past year was the toughest for getting volunteers, despite the fact that this past year was our best chance ever.

I just don't understand how people can decide that they have no chance of winning (not even knowing the odds), and simply surrender. That mindset is incomprehensible to me.

After listening to the CD of the Fisher case that MGLouie sent me (thanks, Louis), I was impressed by the extent to which the defense went to challenge existing statute. But I'm sure not going to hang my hat on a pending decision from a 4:3 liberal court.

Photoman and Adrian have challenged my assertion that we must win the governor's race. Both have said that we need to increase the number of pro-CCW legislators.

Both are true.

If Green or Walker are elected, and the Senate and Assembly remain in Reublican control, we will have a CCW bill signed by next spring. There will not be an argument over whether the bill should be passed. The argument will be over what restrictions (if any) will be allowed.

There it is, folks: your Holy of Holy. Your chance to get the best concealed carry bill in the country. All you have to do is work on some campaigns. An hour, two hours, three hours, more...it really isn't very hard. It's just time.

If Doyle is elected, we would need to increase the number of Republicans in the Senate (the most vulnerable chamber) from 19 votes to 22. That's a huge task.

If Doyle is elected, we would also need to keep at the very minimum 51 Republican seats in the Assembly. That's probably easier to do. But then we have squishy Republicans to deal with. (Read: more restictions on carry).

And let me be even more frank here: the chances of me getting busted for illegal CCW are far more remote than for most people I know, and for a variety of reasons.

On top of that, my wife and I plan to move to a Deep Southern state at our earliest possible chance.

IOW, I really don't have a dog in this fight, except to the extent that I hate liars. And Jim Doyle, Jim Kreuser, Tom Barrett, Terry Van Akkeren, John Steinbrink, Gary Sherman and others have been lying to the citizens of Wisconsin.

In his memoirs, Bill Clinton admitted that his decision to press forward with the "Assault Weapons ban" in 1994 was a mistake. Many senior members of the Democrat congress urged him to let it go, fearing a loss of control of the congress. Well, they were right. And Clinton, to his credit, admitted as much in his biography.

Every single person on this forum and other gun forums has the ability to make the concealed carry issue a "win-or-lose" proposition for so-called pro-gun Democrats.

The only question is how much work folks are willing to do.

Whether you think the WCCA/WCCM is effective, or whether you think the groups are "toothless," that doesn't matter to me.

The only thing that matters is how much time you're willing to devote.

And, just to keep it simple, here's the email address if you want to help: dick.baker@wisconsinconcealedcarry.com

You will notice, BTW, that no other member of this forum or others, nor anti-gun agitators, puts his/her full email address, phone number, and street address across internet sites, forums, and flyers.

My wife says I'm stupid. I say I'm sticking by my principles.

You be the judge.

<­BR>

Link Posted: 3/3/2006 4:26:36 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 5:03:28 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 8:11:08 AM EDT
Let's all face the simple fact. The reason the March 12 shoot got cancelled, 99% of gun owners are chicken and lazy.

It is a legal activity. But the simple threat of LE showing up and arresting people shut it down. Even the ATF couldn't do anything unless there really is law being broken. Now they know how to keep us at bay. Threaten us and we'll fold. Just the threat of a DC ticket keeps almost everyone from carrying.

I feel the shoot should have gone on with the expressed written statement of the threat! That would also show people what we/their up against. If your not up for some LE, dont come, if your willing to put up with it, have fun.

Link Posted: 3/3/2006 9:11:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MGLouie:
Let's all face the simple fact. The reason the March 12 shoot got cancelled, 99% of gun owners are chicken and lazy.

It is a legal activity. But the simple threat of LE showing up and arresting people shut it down. Even the ATF couldn't do anything unless there really is law being broken. Now they know how to keep us at bay. Threaten us and we'll fold. Just the threat of a DC ticket keeps almost everyone from carrying.

I feel the shoot should have gone on with the expressed written statement of the threat! That would also show people what we/their up against. If your not up for some LE, dont come, if your willing to put up with it, have fun.




+1
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 11:14:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BulletcatchR:
IMO a private forum isn't necessary to plan plitical fundraisers. Let "them" know and act/plan accordingly. In the long run it's better to adapt your planning to be totallly on the up and up.

What we can't have, IMO, is any open carry rally planning and tactics on an open forum.

I'll make my stand clear, I wash my hands of "politics and money", if a person needs money to be convinced of his position or to guarantee his/her vote, then he's not my kind of man.

I will not get involved to raise money for anything except an open carry legal defense fund.


"OPEN CARRY" LEGAL DEFENSE FUND


bulletcatchR





+1 on this I have been waiting to discuss this. I'll talk to you guys next Saturday, I have no problem donating to the cause but in the past it seems like my money is not well spent or no one really cares what the people donating think.

BTH out
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 1:35:44 PM EDT
Where do I send my money for an open carry defense fund?

I am frustrated by all the secret squirel obfuscations by the "pro-gun movement".

If you do what you have always done you will get what you have always gotten = nothing!

or to paraphrase Einstein:

If you do the same thing over and over and over ( i.e. use the same methods to pass PPA) and expect a different result you are insane.

Its time to change tactics if not leadership. Open carry is legal.

Jeff
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 6:58:15 PM EDT
RavenJeff, by all means, go and carry openly if that's what you want to do.

I'd really appreciate it if you would email me, letting me know your experiences with interactions with law enforcement.

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