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Posted: 1/9/2006 3:53:27 PM EDT
I have been looking at Del-ton rifle kits to put something together for Melissa. Well really for me, but she can use it for class and such. This seems to be the most cost effective route.

I have read somewhere that Sully uses both chrome lined and non chromed lined barrels. I am inclined to buy chrome lined due to it's longevity. What is your take? What is the advantage if any to a non-chrome lined bore?

M4 contour, seeing that I don't think I will ever put a launcher on my rifle the M4 contour is not really needed. I do however like the look, plus the lighter weight over the Wilson 16" heavy 1X9. Besides the appearance which would be the better choice.

I really like the flat top upper however I think I need to stick with the A2 upper to save on cost. I don't have a suitable optic for the rail, so that is out. I don't really want to pay the extra $65 for the carrying handle if I don't have to. Unless there is an extra floating around that someone does not need anymore?


While I am on it. What are the benifits to the M4 feed ramps?


Thanks for the help guys. I just want to try and make the right choices with what money I have to spend on this.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 4:28:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2006 4:35:08 PM EDT by FMD]
If I had to do mine all over again, I'd go with a lightweight contour 1/9 chrome lined A3 (I really like red-dot optics).

Re: "M4 feedramps", nice idea. I don't know that they make a difference.

You might want to take a look at J&T Distributing for the upper/kit (no offence to DelTon, but they don't seem to offer a chrome-lined lightweight).

I'd also spend the extra $75 on one of Sully's A1 carry handles fro the A3 upper, but that's just me.

ETA: If you're building a kit, both Stag and Superior lowers can be had for <$100. I'd also spring for the Sully stock.

Note to Sully, I'll take that residual check now.

Seriously T, I think the gal's are best served by the combo of a lightweight barrel up front, and a heavier fixed rear with a shortened LOP. You'd probably like it too.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 4:38:25 PM EDT
My .02$:

I like the chrome lined barrel for the ease of cleaning and the piece of mind in case I don't get to cleaning it right after range time. Not a nessesity, some feel a non chrome lined bbl is more accurate, but that's not a problem in a carbine, to me. IMHO: a chrome lined chamber is a big plus for more reliable extraction.

The M4 profile is not a bad thing to me. Not as heavy as a HB but more mass than a pencil barrel to help with heat dissipation in rapid fire. Otherwise I'd go with the lighter bbl for a carbine. Light is good in a carbine. After taking Sully's carbine class, I took off as much as I could to lighten up my carbine.

I like flat tops myself. Always nice to have options for the future. But nothing wrong with fixed sights in an A2 or A1 upper. (My crappy eyesight does better with optics.) Sully prefers the simpler A1 irons because they are harder to mess up once you've got them zeroed. I'll be using one of his A1 BUIS with a same plane peep once he gets them out.

M4 feed ramps seem like a solution looking for a problem to me.

My next bbl will have a 1:7 twist to let me shoot bullet weights from 55 to 77 grains. The 1:9 twist would also let you use lighter weight and thinner jacketed bullets (and up to about 69 grain on the high side). The lighter stuff is good for varmit hunting but not needed for a defensive carbine, IMO.

Thst might have been more than .02$, but there you go.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 6:17:01 PM EDT
My $.02
Chrome lining is not about accuracy, it's about reliability. The Military learned the hard ware with the M16 and fixed it with later models. Chrome lining aids in more reliable extraction of spent casings (especially if your gonna run wolf..) under adverse conditions (AK is a chrome lined as well)

I would not own a AR that does not have a chrome chamber and bore and chromeed Bolt carrier (inside of BC) I want that reliability.

As to a flat top. Take the plunge and get it, gives you way to much versatility, and you'll just spend the $175 and do it later....(ask me how I know this). get a good BUIS instead of the carry handle and use that till you get an Optic (trust me you will, all but the biggest bullheaded Dinosaurs get an optic)

Link Posted: 1/10/2006 4:36:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2006 4:36:44 AM EDT by dalesimpson]
I have to agree with getting the flat top. Keep your eye on the EE for BUISs. I got my YHM for like $65 I think. Even a new YHM BUIS is like $80 so it's not a bank breaker. I got rid of my 16" with the M4 profile, and I replaced it with a 20" mutt upper. Now I need to add another 16" to my "collection", but this one is going to be a nice lightweight one with the flat top, and maybe a railed gas block or a flip up front sight. I am going with light weight instead of the super cool tactical look this time.

ETA Sorry if this is less than coherent. I just got done with my first night of 12 hour nights and I am a little squirrely right now.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 2:18:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FMD:
If I had to do mine all over again, I'd go with a lightweight contour 1/9 chrome lined A3 (I really like red-dot optics).

Re: "M4 feedramps", nice idea. I don't know that they make a difference.

You might want to take a look at J&T Distributing for the upper/kit (no offence to DelTon, but they don't seem to offer a chrome-lined lightweight).

I'd also spend the extra $75 on one of Sully's A1 carry handles fro the A3 upper, but that's just me.

ETA: If you're building a kit, both Stag and Superior lowers can be had for <$100. I'd also spring for the Sully stock.

Note to Sully, I'll take that residual check now.

Seriously T, I think the gal's are best served by the combo of a lightweight barrel up front, and a heavier fixed rear with a shortened LOP. You'd probably like it too.




Tell me why you think J&T is better than Del-ton.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 2:36:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Flamethrower:

Originally Posted By FMD:
If I had to do mine all over again, I'd go with a lightweight contour 1/9 chrome lined A3 (I really like red-dot optics).

Re: "M4 feedramps", nice idea. I don't know that they make a difference.

You might want to take a look at J&T Distributing for the upper/kit (no offence to DelTon, but they don't seem to offer a chrome-lined lightweight).

I'd also spend the extra $75 on one of Sully's A1 carry handles fro the A3 upper, but that's just me.

ETA: If you're building a kit, both Stag and Superior lowers can be had for <$100. I'd also spring for the Sully stock.

Note to Sully, I'll take that residual check now.

Seriously T, I think the gal's are best served by the combo of a lightweight barrel up front, and a heavier fixed rear with a shortened LOP. You'd probably like it too.




Tell me why you think J&T is better than Del-ton.



I highlighted the important part. J&T sells "Doublestar Arms" parts. Doublestar is what you call Cavalry Arms stuff when it's not plastic, IIRC.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 2:45:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FMD:

Originally Posted By Flamethrower:

Originally Posted By FMD:
If I had to do mine all over again, I'd go with a lightweight contour 1/9 chrome lined A3 (I really like red-dot optics).

Re: "M4 feedramps", nice idea. I don't know that they make a difference.

You might want to take a look at J&T Distributing for the upper/kit (no offence to DelTon, but they don't seem to offer a chrome-lined lightweight).

I'd also spend the extra $75 on one of Sully's A1 carry handles fro the A3 upper, but that's just me.

ETA: If you're building a kit, both Stag and Superior lowers can be had for <$100. I'd also spring for the Sully stock.

Note to Sully, I'll take that residual check now.

Seriously T, I think the gal's are best served by the combo of a lightweight barrel up front, and a heavier fixed rear with a shortened LOP. You'd probably like it too.




Tell me why you think J&T is better than Del-ton.



I highlighted the important part. J&T sells "Doublestar Arms" parts. Doublestar is what you call Cavalry Arms stuff when it's not plastic, IIRC.



I don't understand the Doublestar arms thing.


These are the barrel options for the

flattop
Barrel Willson Arms 16" M4 Barrel 1X9
Wilson Arms 16" M4 1x9 Chrome Lined (Add $45.00)
DPMS 16" M4 1x9 (Add $38.00)
DPMS 16" M4 1x9 Chrome Lined (Add $60.00)
DPMS 16" M4 1x7 Chrome Lined (Add $60.00)


A2

Barrels Wilson Arms 16" Heavy 1x9
Wilson Arms 16" Heavy 1x9 Chrome Lined (Add $45.00)
DPMS 16" Heavy 1x9 (Add $15.00)
DPMS 16" Light Weight (Add $28.00)


Isn't the Wilson Arms 16' M4 1x9 chrome lined not only chrome line but the lightweight model due to the launcher profile cut? This is what I thought anyway?? I was always under the impression that the M4 barrel was a lightweight barrel, is this not true?
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 3:58:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2006 4:13:34 PM EDT by Drawcut]

Originally Posted By Flamethrower:

Isn't the Wilson Arms 16' M4 1x9 chrome lined not only chrome line but the lightweight model due to the launcher profile cut? This is what I thought anyway?? I was always under the impression that the M4 barrel was a lightweight barrel, is this not true?



The M4 profile is not the same as a lightweight. It's in between the heavy bbl and the lightweight. A lightweight barrel is about as thin as the thinnest part of the M4 profile for almost the entire length. It is also sometimes called a pencil barrel.

ETA:
lightweight:


M4:


Heavy:


And there is also Government Profile which is thin under the handguards and heavy past the FSB:


There are other barrel profiles out there, but those are the main ones. I hope Bushmaster doesn't mind the image links.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 5:13:12 PM EDT
Ok now we are getting somewhere. I did not know this. How much weight does it add (M4) as opposed to the light weight? Are we talking ounces here, right?

Would the lightweight be more prone to bending or delfection off it axis?

Assuming there were both chrome lined which is the better chioce?
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 6:18:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Flamethrower:
Ok now we are getting somewhere. I did not know this. How much weight does it add (M4) as opposed to the light weight? Are we talking ounces here, right?

Would the lightweight be more prone to bending or delfection off it axis?

Assuming there were both chrome lined which is the better chioce?



Disclaimer: this is from what I have heard/read. I've made no direct comparisons myself, but I try to be careful about what/who I believe.

Not sure about exactly how much weight difference there is, but it's very noticable because of the location of the extra weight.

The lighter the barrel the more sensitive it becomes to overheating with rapid fire. Overheating causes some deflection and loss of accuracy. How much this is a problem is debatable. IMO: not a big problem for a civilian unless you are 'Sir Bumps a Lot'. This is not perminate damage, things go back to normal after cooling off. (unless you really abused a FA weapon or the like.) The lightweight would also bend easier if used as a pry bar.

For me, in a carbine it would be a toss up between the M4 or lightweight. If it was for my wife, I'd pick the lightweight.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 6:54:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2006 7:01:17 PM EDT by FMD]
Drawcut, thanks for the pics.


Originally Posted By Flamethrower:
Ok now we are getting somewhere. I did not know this. How much weight does it add (M4) as opposed to the light weight? Are we talking ounces here, right?

Yes (see drawcut's comment about where the weight is. The M4 profile is lightweight, but compared to a pencil barrel, it is also noticibly heavier

Would the lightweight be more prone to bending or delfection off it axis?

Yes, with heat (think multiple mag dumps), or when you put a bipod on it without a free-floated forearm. On the accuracy note, you're more likely to see vertical stringing (a couple of inches) at distance (100 yards +) with an increase in the number of rounds downrange.

Assuming there were both chrome lined which is the better chioce?

It all depends on what the use is. A carbine for my uses (primarily close in home defense with the ability to make shots < 300 yards, max effective range for the round) would be better served by the lightweight...especially if it were my better half who had to be comfortable toting it around.



Edit to add: AnnieO's got a 16" heavy barrel carbine, and she's happy with it (she doesn't think it's too heavy). Then again, she doesn't hike around with it much. It is I that would prefer the lightweight over any other profile.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 9:09:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2006 9:14:59 PM EDT by glenn_r]
My input:

Go with the lightweight barrel. At an all-day class, or carrying the thing around, it adds up. People talk about dispersion with light barrels, but unless you have an HBAR they're all light somewhere. I didn't have any problems making hits at 400m with a lightweight 11.5". I've put a lot of rounds through an M16A1 and never missed because of the lightweight barrel--I always managed to miss because of me

Get the chrome lining and the 1/7 twist rate. The 1/7 will do everything the 1/9 will do with lightweight bullets, but will be guaranteed to handle the 77-grain. The three 1/9 I've handled will handle the 77 grain in warm weather, but I still need to try them in January (well, when it gets cold, anyway). The 1/7 is never a problem, and you might want to upgrade to 77gr ammo someday.

Consider a 14.5" with permanently-attached flash-hider (not A2 flash-hider) to bring it up to 16". The 1.5" of barrel you lose won't affect velocity enough to matter, but it does affect handling, IMO.

Flat-tops are more versatile but you can use an Aimpoint with a fixed carry handle if you want. I do and don't feel like I'm missing anything. My wife likes her flat-top with ARMS BUIS. She doesn't like red-dots or scopes, and refuses to use a detachable carry handle because she doesn't like how they look. She just likes her #40. When she's happy, I'm happy.

FWIW, YMMV. By the time you get everything assembled, either you or she will see something else, handle it, and wish you'd gotten that other gizmo anyway
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 4:19:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 4:25:14 AM EDT by FMD]

Originally Posted By glenn_r:
My input:
Get the chrome lining and the 1/7 twist rate. The 1/7 will do everything the 1/9 will do with lightweight bullets, but will be guaranteed to handle the 77-grain. The three 1/9 I've handled will handle the 77 grain in warm weather, but I still need to try them in January (well, when it gets cold, anyway). The 1/7 is never a problem, and you might want to upgrade to 77gr ammo someday.

Consider a 14.5" with permanently-attached flash-hider (not A2 flash-hider) to bring it up to 16". The 1.5" of barrel you lose won't affect velocity enough to matter, but it does affect handling, IMO.



Excellent advice on both counts G (I'd reccomend the pointy-ended Phantom for a perm installed FH, if it's good for nothing else, it will make Sully's hand hurt at carbine class).

I've gone up to 68gr (in the cold) with no problems out of a 1/9, and I can still shoot the 40gr varmint stuff if need be (though 55 is the lowest I normally go). If I'm using the 77gr ammo out of a 16", it'd be close in with the cannalured bullet for fragmentation. Anyhing that heavy (72+ grains) would normally be fodder for AnnieO's 1/8 bull barrel (not the HB Carbine) at distance.

<internet rumor, YactualMMV>
The 1/7 LW profile seems to be as rare as hen's teeth right now. If I'm not mistaken, only Colt and Bushy make them; Colt won't sell to us normal folks, and Bushmaster wants you to order 100 at a time. Either way, "inexpensive" is probably not an option.
</internet rumor>

Do a search of the Technical forums here for more info if you really want the 1/7 Lightweight.

Whatever you choose, I want first dibs (after you and the wife) on the trigger time. Sounds like you'll have a great, handy litlle gun!

ETA:


Originally Posted By glenn_r:
By the time you get everything assembled, either you or she will see something else, handle it, and wish you'd gotten that other gizmo anyway



He ain't kidding. Build the basic, plain-jane carbine first; and get into a class. It's both possible (and likely) that all the extra "stuff" you may think you need will go away by the end of the day (rails, VFG's, etc.). The only "extra" I have left on mine is a red-dot, and that's due to cross-eye dominance.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 4:48:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FMD:
Excellent advice on both counts G (I'd reccomend the pointy-ended Phantom for a perm installed FH, if it's good for nothing else, it will make Sully's hand hurt at carbine class).



No such luck! I could hardly wait until he got to me, because that's what I have on the end of my barrel. But while I was standing there, chuckling like a hyena, he just got a twinkle in his eye and hit my front sight post instead
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 4:57:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 4:58:04 AM EDT by glenn_r]

Originally Posted By FMD:
The 1/7 LW profile seems to be as rare as hen's teeth right now. If I'm not mistaken, only Colt and Bushy make them; Colt won't sell to us normal folks, and Bushmaster wants you to order 100 at a time. Either way, "inexpensive" is probably not an option.



My 1/7 lightweights are factory colts. The difference between my 14.5" lightweight (technically 16" with flash hider) and my wife's 16" M4 barrel is amazing. They seem like completely different animals. Mine handles nice and lively, which I like in a carbine, while hers merely handles OK. She likes it better, though.

There's an easy way to get a 16" lightweight. Buy whatever contour is cheapest and send it to ADCO or one of those other places to get turned down. Drop a folding front sight on it (I think the lightweight front sight towers are out there, but you have to look for a while), and you're GTG.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 8:11:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By glenn_r:
There's an easy way to get a 16" lightweight. Buy whatever contour is cheapest and send it to ADCO or one of those other places to get turned down. Drop a folding front sight on it (I think the lightweight front sight towers are out there, but you have to look for a while), and you're GTG.



Steve does great work, and can also turn/cut/crown/and thread a 16" down to 14.5 with a FH.

If you go that route, the FSB I would reccomend (hen's teeth again) is the YHM folding clamp on. It's what I have on mine, and is about the same weight as a regular FSB.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 8:12:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By glenn_r:

Originally Posted By FMD:
Excellent advice on both counts G (I'd reccomend the pointy-ended Phantom for a perm installed FH, if it's good for nothing else, it will make Sully's hand hurt at carbine class).



No such luck! I could hardly wait until he got to me, because that's what I have on the end of my barrel. But while I was standing there, chuckling like a hyena, he just got a twinkle in his eye and hit my front sight post instead



That's cause mine hurt like the dickens!
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 9:34:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 9:35:28 AM EDT by Drawcut]
Just a few more opinions:

Like FMD said: 'keep it simple for now' is good advise. I took off my railed fore end and VFG after Sully's class. Just diddn't need them or the weight. Sounds like that's the direction you're taking anyway.

I know you diddn't ask this but I'd also recommend either a Sully stock or some kind of collapsible stock - it will work best with the stance Sully teaches.

On back up irons: I've gone away from the flip up style. I added a riser for my Eotech that puts the irons in the lower 1/3 of the window. To me this is simpler and much faster than trying to flip sights up if your optic goes down. It feels like forever if your optic goes down in the middle of a drill and you're trying to flip the irons up. (Been there, done that.)

Not sure about the 14.5 vs 16" I'm OK with a 14.5" M4 now, but I've always felt I'd like a 16" 1/7 for the extra fragmentation range. I should handle some folks 16" carbines more to see how they feel to me.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 5:17:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/12/2006 2:55:02 AM EDT by Flamethrower]
Ok to start things off. I am not looking to put all kinds of stuff on this rifle. I always liked the plain jane functionality of the basic service rifle/carbine. All of the crap like lasers and 12 differens optics and sights and such always seemed to be a fad. With that I will not say that a good red dot or other nice optic is a bad thing. I am just saying does anyone really need 4 rails on a hand guard and 4 rails on a front sight block and 3 rails on a an upper? Please reffer to the picture below.


I think he needs "The Button" Then he is done.


I really like the idea of a flat top upper. I have always liked the appearance. I just want to try and keep costs down. However this is one of those critical choices that I will have to live with. A flat top is probably the choice I will make. Are t-marks really that important? Do they actually serve a purpose other that the tactical look?


I had seen on the J&T catalog something about a flat top hi-rise.?? What is that?


A word on barrels as for twist rate. I like faster twists I am shooting 90gr SMK's out of my Colt H-bar 1X7 with good success. With that, I am also shooting 40gr V-max's out of it with great success.
I think I can live with a 1X9 as I don't see myself shooting anything heavier than a 69gr anyway, however if I have the option and it is not to much more I would opt for the 1X7
After looking at the different barrel profiles, if I remember correctly the rifle I used in basic was the lightweight and my unit level was the launcher cut. Well sort of. It was 20' A2 with the M203. It is impossible to judge this way. I thinkI just need to handle both of them and see which one I and Melissa like better. Is changing barrels increadibly difficult, if I decide after the fact that I have made the wrong choice and buy a different barrel?

Stocks. At the moment I like the 6 position car that Delton advertises. It is an extra $20 for the 6 position as opposed to the 4. It seems like there is an extra sling mount to boot. The Sully stock looks nice, however it is $120 of which is about $60 more that what is offered in the kit.

I know I can change out parts and things later, I am hoping to get the major component down right the first time. I know I need an ambi-safety. BUIS or carry handle.

I am looking at J&T more and more. Seems like they may have more options, but the price is more as well.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 6:01:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By glenn_r:
People talk about dispersion with light barrels, but unless you have an HBAR they're all light somewhere.

I have to dissagree with you here. Deflection from a force against the barrel and from heat are two different problems.

Applying a force against the barrel with a bipod, tight sling, etc will cause deflection and a thin section of barrel back near the chamber will deflect nearly the same whether the end of the barrel is thin or thick.

With deflection caused by heat, the amount of metal in the barrel will directly affect how fast it will heat up . A heavier barrel will have more mass to heat up and will take more rounds fired to reach a temperature high enough to cause deflection. So the fact that M4 profile is thin under the handguards is less of a factor than the overall mass of metal in the barrel vs a pencil barrel.

I hope that made sense.


FWIW, YMMV. By the time you get everything assembled, either you or she will see something else, handle it, and wish you'd gotten that other gizmo anyway
Truer words have never been spoken.

Link Posted: 1/11/2006 7:26:26 PM EDT
Dude, KISS and go with the 16" pencil barrel, 1/9 twist, chrome lined. The weight savings and handling benefits are substantial. Forged FSB and flat top with flip up BUIS. You didn't say what her proficiency level is, but stay with irons for awhile, until proficiency is good at least. A basic 4 position CAR telestock is good and cheap too.

My 16" pencil barrel is my favorite rifle for 100yds and in. Yes, the barrel does "whip" a bit more, and you will have slightly bigger groups at distance, but it's still pretty darn easy to hit minute of torso out to 200 yards.....which is where M193 is running out of steam anyway. And after taking the carbine class, I ditched the red dot........makes no sense on a 5lb. carbine!

Link Posted: 1/11/2006 11:49:56 PM EDT
Now that you know you want a lightweight barrel, let's start on Stocks...

Seriously though, I have a 4 position that I drilled an extra detent into to fit right where I want it (witha butt pad). Guess what? It's excactly the same length as a Sully.

BulletcatchR (whom you wil agree probably has a slightly different body than I do), has an Entry stock, with a 1" reciever extension. It fits him. Know what? It's exactly the same length as a Sully stock.

Almost forgot to mention: Annie O has a Magpul M93 on her rifle, set to position #2 (her preference). Guess what?... Yep, It's exactly the same length as a Sully stock.

The Sully stock just "fits", period.

Again, if I had to do it all over again...I'd get the Sully.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 3:59:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FMD:
Now that you know you want a lightweight barrel, let's start on Stocks...

Seriously though, I have a 4 position that I drilled an extra detent into to fit right where I want it (witha butt pad). Guess what? It's excactly the same length as a Sully.

BulletcatchR (whom you wil agree probably has a slightly different body than I do), has an Entry stock, with a 1" reciever extension. It fits him. Know what? It's exactly the same length as a Sully stock.

Almost forgot to mention: Annie O has a Magpul M93 on her rifle, set to position #2 (her preference). Guess what?... Yep, It's exactly the same length as a Sully stock.

The Sully stock just "fits", period.

Again, if I had to do it all over again...I'd get the Sully.



The only problem with the Sully stock is that you can't change it for heavier clothes, LBE, or different shooters. Not a huge problem but something to consider. Plus teles are very cheap. It becomes a problem of 'buy cheap and probably buy twice' or 'spend more and hope you picked right the first time'.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 4:53:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/12/2006 4:58:21 AM EDT by FMD]

Originally Posted By Drawcut:
The only problem with the Sully stock is that you can't change it for heavier clothes, LBE, or different shooters. Not a huge problem but something to consider...



Always with them negative waves, Moriarity.

Both AnnieO and I leave our adj, stock in position, even with body armor + winter coats. The change in LOP by adding/subtracting clothes is insignifigant. As far as different shooters, if it fits them, why worry about other shooters? Besides, this seems to be a LOP that will fit everyone from a buxom gal, to a twiggy guy, to a freakishly tall dude, and many others as well.

Isn't that the "Glock" argument I keep getting from you guys? It just fits, so get it.

FT, if you want the adjustability, have at it. When you've figured it out, the EE is a great place to sell that adj. for the cash to buy the sully stock. Edit: I'm being a bit hypocritical here, as I still have the old style tele and the Magpul on our carbines. The Magpul stays for a reaon (Annie has a different upper that she uses that does require a different LOP for the optics), but I'm just too cheap/lazy to switch out the tele for a Sully.
Oh, almost forgot, changing out a barrel isn't that hard. Most of us have the tools that you can borrow, but we're right back to spending the (slightly) extra money for what you want now, or doing it all twice.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 5:12:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/12/2006 5:14:38 AM EDT by FMD]
Back to your questions:
Are t-marks really that important? Do they actually serve a purpose other that the tactical look?

IMHO They are not important.

I had seen on the J&T catalog something about a flat top hi-rise.?? What is that?

No clue. I'd guess it's for optics.

I think I can live with a 1X9 as I don't see myself shooting anything heavier than a 69gr anyway,

Good (see below).

however if I have the option and it is not to much more I would opt for the 1X7

It seems to be an expensive option given the profile no matter how you look at it.

Stocks. At the moment I like the 6 position car that Delton advertises. It is an extra $20 for the 6 position as opposed to the 4. It seems like there is an extra sling mount to boot. The Sully stock looks nice, however it is $120 of which is about $60 more that what is offered in the kit.

So $60 for the CAR (4 pos), $80 for the M4 (6 pos), or $120 for the Sully. Again, if I had to do it all over, I wouldn't go the cheap route.

I know I can change out parts and things later, I am hoping to get the major component down right the first time.

Try before you buy!

I am looking at J&T more and more. Seems like they may have more options, but the price is more as well.

With the kits, it seems you get what you pay for.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 7:35:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FMD:

Originally Posted By Drawcut:
The only problem with the Sully stock is that you can't change it for heavier clothes, LBE, or different shooters. Not a huge problem but something to consider...



Always with them negative waves, Moriarity. I did say it wasn't a huge problem, just maybe a consideration.

Both AnnieO and I leave our adj, stock in position, even with body armor + winter coats. The change in LOP by adding/subtracting clothes is insignifigant. As far as different shooters, if it fits them, why worry about other shooters? Besides, this seems to be a LOP that will fit everyone from a buxom gal, to a twiggy guy, to a freakishly tall dude, and many others as well. Hey! I resemble that remark! I usually will shorten my Magpul stock by one notch with a heavy coat. Whatever works well for you.

Isn't that the "Glock" argument I keep getting from you guys? It just fits, so get it. Actually, I tend to say: Keep an open mind and try out different things so you find what works best for you. If you give a Glock an honest try and it just doesn't work for you, then don't use one. For instance, I can't use the often recommended Oakleys or Wiley X glasses since they won't take a strong enough prescription for my eyes. Just beacause they work for most people doesn't mean they will be best for me.

FT, if you want the adjustability, have at it. When you've figured it out, the EE is a great place to sell that adj. for the cash to buy the sully stock. Edit: I'm being a bit hypocritical here, as I still have the old style tele and the Magpul on our carbines. The Magpul stays for a reaon (Annie has a different upper that she uses that does require a different LOP for the optics), but I'm just too cheap/lazy to switch out the tele for a Sully.
Oh, almost forgot, changing out a barrel isn't that hard. Most of us have the tools that you can borrow, but we're right back to spending the (slightly) extra money for what you want now, or doing it all twice.



Hey, I agree with most everything you've said. Some of the small differences are just going to come down to personal preferance.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 12:44:27 PM EDT
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Link Posted: 2/4/2006 1:22:33 PM EDT
Here is my next upper. It is on RBPrecision's website and base price is $399, add $40 for chrome lined and $35 for railed gas block.

Link Posted: 2/4/2006 4:57:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dalesimpson:
Here is my next upper. It is on RBPrecision's website and base price is $399, add $40 for chrome lined and $35 for railed gas block.

www.rbprecision.com/7312ef90.gif



What does this mean then Dale??
Chrome Lining on M4 (notched barrel) ONLY $40.00 additional charge

On M4 notched barrel only??
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 5:10:12 PM EDT
I assumed that a chrome lined barrel was $40 extra, but maybe the non-M4 barrels are already chrome lined. I will have to check into that when I order mine. But it will definitely be chrome lined, and I really want the flat top gas block too.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 6:45:17 PM EDT
Here's my take on it, the weight between the m4 profile and the heavy contour is very noticeable. pick one rifle of each up, and you'll see what I mean. Second, I'd go with chrome lined, but thats just because I abuse my barrels I also personally find that the CL works a little better with Wolf. IIRC, the RRA uppers pictures above are not chrome lined, unless they specifically say so, ie. the m4 contour option.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 7:46:20 PM EDT
Chrome lining is a $40 option for the M4 barrel. I am not sure if the plain 16" barrel is chrome or not. I will have to ask RB Precision when I call them.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 1:29:27 PM EDT
Damn, I tried calling R&B today and they like everyone else is at the Shot show this week. I wanted to ask them some questions. I guess I will have to give someone else my money next week.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 1:55:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 1:56:53 PM EDT by dalesimpson]

Originally Posted By Flamethrower:
Damn, I tried calling R&B today and they like everyone else is at the Shot show this week. I wanted to ask them some questions. I guess I will have to give someone else my money next week.



Krista was supposed to be at the shop today at RB Precision. Robert left for the Shot show today, but he said Krista would be there today since she isn't leaving until tomorrow. I just called them yesterday to order my 2 lowers, which I will go pick up tomorrow! When I quizzed her about the RRA uppers she said that they have to order them and that the chrome lining is $40 for either profile. Now if you are in a hurry, you should get in touch with Pete in NH (Legal Transfers), he is a stocking RRA dealer and he advertises his RRA stuff as being too low priced to advertise. You will have to call him to get a price I guess.

Here is a link to Pete's EE post.

Legal Transfers
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 2:34:44 PM EDT
I am not in a huge hurry. I did call Pete and I don't know if I would call him a stoking dealer. He did quote me a price that is cheaper than others I have seen. He also informed me of the RRA price increase that is going to take affect tomorrow. Even after the rate increase the price is better. Like I said I am not in a huge hurry, but he did say that RRA would drop ship my upper and it would take 2-3 weeks to fill the order. I like the price for the upper, plus I did not know they had a lifetime warrenty on them. I will forgo a little extra weight on the barrel for a lifetime warrenty. That coupled with the price, I think I will buy from him. I don't care for his paypal or MO only policy. I like to use CC so I have some legal rights in case the deal turns bad or he is a crook. Having never dealt with him before I find it a bit difficult to just send him a MO for xxx dollars without feeling like I might lose it. Is there any place to look up seller feedback??


BTW you must not be working as much Dale. You are answering things way to quickly.

Link Posted: 2/7/2006 2:59:15 PM EDT
I am currently in my 4th week of being laid off. I am waiting for a friend of mine to get his new business going so that I can get back out there and run some work. Hopefully in a few weeks I will be back to my normal 60 or so hours a week schedule. Flame, can you IM me with the price and what upper you are considering getting from Pete?
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 3:51:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 4:00:46 PM EDT by FMD]

Originally Posted By Flamethrower:
Having never dealt with him before I find it a bit difficult to just send him a MO for xxx dollars without feeling like I might lose it. Is there any place to look up seller feedback??



Ask and ye shall recieve:

Legal-transfers feedback post



ETA: Four pages of +1's with 4 negative comments. Looks like the -1's are a Canadian and a Californian bitching about stuff that isn't legal where they live so he refused the sales, and two "I didn't like the way he talked to me" posts. I'd say your M.O. is pretty safe.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:47:06 PM EDT
Thanks man.
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