I don't know about more recently, but a few years ago, taser use seemed to be reducing the number of incidents where officers used lethal force.

Sounds like textbook "excited delirium."

Those guys will fight to the death, with or without the Taser.  In fact, the longer you let the fight go on, the greater the risk to the subject... because while they're fighting (and otherwise engaging in the superhuman exertions these people perform), they're digging their own grave.  As they fight, their heart-rate goes higher, their lactic acid levels rise, their metabolic acidosis gets deeper and deeper, they get more and more hypoxic at the tissue level... they get more and more dehydrated...  Some of these guys roll in the door with pH levels worse than a diabetic in DKA (6.8, 6.9, etc).

The very BEST thing you can do is get these types of raving maniacs under control quickly, and into the hands of EMS.  It doesn't matter whether the etiology is psychiatric, or drug-induced; this is a medical emergency, and these people need medical help... and even that frequently doesn't save them, since by the time they've come to the attention of LE or EMS, they're already in a very deep hole.

A critical-care full-court-press is the only chance some of these patients have... and that can't start until you have them under control.

So a guy runs around yelling and that's enough for you to assume the guy has a medical condition? Yeah, THAT'S not jumping to conclusions.

Sure, it's possible he could have a medical issue, but the article didn't describe any synptoms, and yet you're already diagnosing him. The closest it came was mentioning that his breathing was interrupted by a big jolt of electricity through his body. Yeah, like that's an abnormal and identifying symptom that clues you right in to whatever he has.

So then you immdiately launch into a detailed justification of why you have to "Put him down right now! It's the only way!" Sounds like a rationalization to me. Might as well just say "Let's nuke him from orbit, it's the only way to be sure."  

Hopefully, you can see how that looks (to others) like an attempt to justify a manslaughter (not murder because no intent to kill).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excited_delirium

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%E1%BA%BFn_Tre

it's a comment on the logic of "He's in medical danger so we had to Taze him to death"

Wow, you must've missed the part where the idiot fought with the cops.  



It wasn't: he runs around yelling, then calmly answers questions when confronted by LEO.



It was:  he runs around yelling, then fights with them when they confront him.



How fuckin' hard is that to understand?  He never would've tazed if he hadn't fought.



Again...play stupid games, win stupid prizes.



 

Did you actually pay attention to what I wrote?  Don't get hung up on the terminology.  "Excited delirium" has become a legal term-of-art, but the operative word is "Delirium."  Delirium comes in a couple of different subtypes (toxic/metabolic, drug-induced, etc), and has been recognized as a medical emergency for as long as medicine has existed.  We see it in the hospital literally on a daily basis.

People also died in police custody long before the Taser.

Everyone has heard the stories and tales of crazy people who fight 6-8 officers to a standstill before being able to be subdued.  Before cocaine came on the scene, we used to see this type of maniac (manic) behavior mostly in the psychiatric population... your Bipolar d/o patients on a manic jag, for instance.  When crack cocaine hit, we started to see it more, along with the cardio-toxicity that's unique to that particular drug.  PCP users will sometimes do similar things... as will people on various amphetamines and stimulants.  

When you have somebody who is that delirious and agitated, your answer is medical... not legal.  Unfortunately, these patients don't want anything to do with your medical treatment, and as somebody who has participated in any number of dog-piles in the ER on crazy/wired patients, these people are extremely strong, feel no pain, and will literally fight to the death.  I say again, THEY WILL FIGHT UNTIL THEY DIE.  You cannot let that happen.  You MUST get control of them quickly, and use pharmacological interventions to control their psychomotor agitation.  If you don't, they'll continue to struggle, continue to fight, and drive their normal metabolism and compensatory mechanisms so far off the rails that by the time they code, there's nothing to save.

The answer is rapid control and hand-over to EMS... where some of these guys can soak up the med supply on 2-3 trucks without even blinking.  In the ER, we sometimes have to resort to full-on neuromuscular paralysis and life-support to control them... followed by aggressive hydration to keep them from going into renal failure... and aggressive management of the arrhythmias and acid-base derangements they inevitably bring.

The Taser, used as early as possible in the process of fighting these folks, followed by rapid transport to the hospital, is a far better course of action that beating them into submission with PR-24s.  You can try the latter... but you're going to end up killing these patients.

Yeah, play the ego up. As if noone else understands medical terminology, only you can read the textbooks and decipher them.
I'm not exactly an idiot, I spent a large portion of my childhood in hospitals, and read medical textbooks for leasure as a child. Hell, the last three generations of my family have been >75% medical workers. But It's not possible I could know the difference between prone and supine, or know what bilateral means or where the ulna is.

That's why I see what you're really doing: standing on your pedestal of superiority means you're above the issues, you don't have to look at facts, and you certainly don't have to learn.. Which is fine, since your mind is already made up, and you already have your rationalizations ready to go anyways.



That is exactly the problem. Justifying force has become an art, exactly like legal manuevering in a courtroom (since that's where it came from). I notice you call it an art instead of a science. While I agree, I wonder if that wasn't a slip of the tongue that you didn't intend.



You nailed it again. So did "Excited delirium" not exist before, or is it simply a contemporary excuse for overwhelming force?



Oh goody! Now we get to address the PSA that was Reefer Madness. When "we" claimed that weed made people violent. FTR, I don't smoke the stuff, but I've been present enough times to know that it does't make people violent. Personally, I prefer the remake with Kirsten Bell, she's hot.

On a more serious note, it's not that hard to explain that people don't want to be arrested. Likewise, that they have nothing to lose, when being arrested, and fight harder than orderlies. They used to blame cocaine and black men for being too powerful for the 38 special most cops carried, and used it as an excuse to develop the 45. Are you really trying to REuse a 100+ year old excuse to describe why some people are "superhuman" when being restrained?



Here it is folks: more of the "protect you from yourselves" mentality. You are not ALLOWED to be agitated while being arrested, never mind that any reasonable person would be AT LEAST mildly agitated when arrested.



Oh crap! Tweak was right! "We have to almost kill them, to keep them alive"



"My way is the only way. Your way WILL kill them. We have to kill them our way, to keep them alive."



Fixed it for ya. 'Cuz I'm a good guy like that.


Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Okay Squirrel, you are trying WAY too hard at an ineffective argument.  You're starting to not make sense.

Give it a rest.

You've wasted my time... congratulations.

Unlike you, I actually do this for a living.  Go re-read what I wrote... it's a straight-up medical opinion.

You are not equipped to have this discussion.

Ok, I'll try to dumb it down for you:

TGM has given his self proclaimed "expert" medical opinion that the best way to calm down people who don't want to be arrested is to nearly kill them.

It's really not that difficult. Can you keep up now?






Well, at least you are sticking with the same strategy.

Just keep looking down your nose so you don't have to read the posted links, or even think about why what you do for a living might be immoral/wrong.

I like you, but you're inching toward full fucking retard at this point.

Some people get off on lopsided fights... I'm not one of them.

I'm going to bow out here

Don't mention it. It's the very least we can do. Now GTFO and go start a thread in your own HTF.





Who left the fucking door open? Is this cross posted in GD or something?

You know TGM is a medical Doc don't you?

Okay then.

Thank you, TGM, for taking the time to type out the info.

There we go making friends again.

Absolutely, that is VERY good info.  Thank you for that.

Careful....we;re all criminals if a cop decides it is so................