Your kind answers have only spawned another question.

Fed?

!

God bless you, Scrun - I think I understand.  They're the Operation Vampire Killer 2000 kind of folks?

In any case, there's a bed with a girl in it for me.  Good night all, and to all a good night.

The truth is out there...

Quoted: Fed?

Fed ; defined    Fedcoat bloody treasonous bastard that works for the communist U.S.  shoots women holding infants in their arms in the face, burn churches filled with women and children to the ground machine gun any who escape and prosecute and inprison survivors, and take trophy pictures with the bodies of their victims.

Quoted: Your kind answers have only spawned another question. Fed?

FED... FBI, ATF, ETC....You might see people call them JBTs

Jack Booted Thugs.

It's an affectionate term mostly ............................................ Mostly

Quoted: Quoted: Fed? Fed ; defined    Fedcoat bloody treasonous bastard that works for the communist U.S.  shoots women holding infants in their arms in the face, burn churches filled with women and children to the ground machine gun any who escape and prosecute and inprison survivors, and take trophy pictures with the bodies of their victims.

Yep, he nailed it. the Fed gets to have all the fun.

Especially when dealing with White Supremacists that sell illegal SBS's, and kooks in a cult that refuse to comply with lawful orders.

No reason to be scared, just terrified !

Has anyone seen my pants?

Quoted: Has anyone seen my pants?

I thought you only wore chaps.

Quoted: Has anyone seen my pants?

The government took them and your little dog too !

Quoted: Quoted: Has anyone seen my pants? I thought you only wore chaps.

you forgot the leapord speedo.....and moon boots

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Has anyone seen my pants? I thought you only wore chaps. you forgot the leapord speedo.....and moon boots

Shower shoes, Light coat of oil....and a pro-mask.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Has anyone seen my pants? I thought you only wore chaps. you forgot the leapord speedo.....and moon boots

I'd post the pictures that Strat covertly took of you wearing nothing but chaps and a smile, but methinks there'd be a CoC violation or twelve there.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Has anyone seen my pants? I thought you only wore chaps. you forgot the leapord speedo.....and moon boots Shower shoes, Light coat of oil....and a pro-mask.

Uniform of the day:  K-Pot, LBV & a thin coat of Break Free.

Quoted: Has anyone seen my pants?

I took them with your stapler.

So wait, a fed is a fed - fbi, atf, etc.?  Or, is fed a deliciously ironic term for militia-type folks?

Either works for me - I just want to be a well-informed Internerd.

Quoted: So wait, a fed is a fed - fbi, atf, etc.?  Or, is fed a deliciously ironic term for militia-type folks?

Feds are the bad guys, the source of all evil, spawn of satan.

Quoted: Feds are the bad guys, the source of all evil, spawn of satan.

Thank you Strat.  Thank you for the earlier link about trolls as well.

This might merit a new thread, or no discussion at all, but I'd be curious to hear what y'all thought about "Waco, rules of engagment."  It's been long enough since I watched it that I can't remember many specifics.  But if it was an accurate documentary, I'd say those cultists got the shaft.  

If it hasn't already been beat to death elsewhere, what do you all think?

Quoted: If it hasn't already been beat to death elsewhere, what do you all think?

I believe the competent elector to be sovereign and to be of superior jurisdiction over all jurisdictions, meaning any 12 living breathing men standing upon the land are the judges of all matters that concern them locally.

This means the people can hold gov officers accountable if they betray their oath of office and the people they serve.

WACO is an extreme example of gov murderers and treason and those guilty of the attrocities of WACO will be brought to justice.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Has anyone seen my pants? I thought you only wore chaps. you forgot the leapord speedo.....and moon boots Shower shoes, Light coat of oil....and a pro-mask. Uniform of the day:  K-Pot, LBV & a thin coat of Break Free.

You forgot the flip flops and the black leather thong.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Fed? Fed ; defined    Fedcoat bloody treasonous bastard that works for the communist U.S.  shoots women holding infants in their arms in the face, burn churches filled with women and children to the ground machine gun any who escape and prosecute and inprison survivors, and take trophy pictures with the bodies of their victims. Yep, he nailed it. the Fed gets to have all the fun. Especially when dealing with White Supremacists that sell illegal SBS's, and kooks in a cult that refuse to comply with lawful orders.

You must surely be fecious. I can't believe Strat let you slide on that one.

DB, "Fed" is a generalization for anyone in "authority" in the FEDeral government.

The resident Fed is laying low.

Quoted: Quoted: If it hasn't already been beat to death elsewhere, what do you all think? I believe the competent elector to be sovereign and to be of superior jurisdiction over all jurisdictions, meaning any 12 living breathing men standing upon the land are the judges of all matters that concern them locally. This means the people can hold gov officers accountable if they betray their oath of office and the people they serve. WACO is an extreme example of gov murderers and treason and those guilty of the attrocities of WACO will be brought to justice. ANARCHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Fixt

HABU-
Strat isn't speaking to me or with me anymore. Methinks I ticked him off in my effort to understand his warped un-assimilated non-kool aid drinking ass.

Originally Posted By Matt45 HABU- Strat isn't speaking to me or with me anymore. Methinks I ticked him off in my effort to understand his warped un-assimilated non-kool aid drinking ass.

Americans of japanese decent that were combat veterans of world war two were not allowed to see their families in the concentration camps while on leave.

You may think tyranny can never happen in America, you may believe gov thugs will never murder your wife and children and burn your house down, arrest and torture your relatives but you would be wrong, as the gov already has done all those things and continue to carry out atrocities every day.

So the gov has not come to your door today, and maybe not next week either, but it will in time as every superstate has always done through-out history.

David koresh might have been a monster but you still do not punish infants with 51 days of torture, poison gas, noise, lights, sniper fire, then burn, bomb and machine gun them to death and take trophy photos of the thugs standing along side the tiny innocent vicitms.




murderoususjudges.com/images/waco2.jpg

Remains of a 2 year old
www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/death/death.jpg

Too many things the .gov never bothered to explain about Waco, and Ruby Ridge.  Like Weaver, Koresh made regular trips to town for supplies.  Why not arrest him then, like they did Weaver, outside the 'fortress'?
For those with short memories, Randy Weaver was arrested a short while before the Ruby Ridge fiasco   murders  incident, and it was allegedly his missed court date that made the JBTs think they had the right to shoot his dog, wife, son, infant, and friend.  Without warning.
At Waco, first it was an unconfirmed report that Koresh was building illegal (according to who?  The .gov, of course) 'machine guns' in the compound.  When that did not hold water, they claimed they were attacking to 'save the children' from Koresh.  Since when are children a responsibility of the BATF?  How does a siege, complete with cutting off water and food, contribute to their welfare?  Killing them all is hardly good for them, or due process.  Burning them to death is mass murder, but if the .gov does it to you it must be ok.
Just because they haven't kicked in YOUR door doesn't mean they can't or won't.

1911fan

Recommended Reading:  "Unintended Consequences",  ISBN #1-888118-04-0

Regarding Weaver, as I understood things, the feds' snitch was after him for a long time to sell him a sawed-off shotgun.  Weaver finally gave in essentially to get the snitch off his back.  I might have the details wrong, but I think it's a fact that the illegal gun deal was done after repeated entreaties from the snitch.

As for a raid on his ridge being the consequences of Weaver FTA'ing at court, that's pretty unique.  The feds must have really been after him.

Quoted: As for a raid on his ridge being the consequences of Weaver FTA'ing at court, that's pretty unique.  The feds must have really been after him.

They were not after Randy, they were after Vicki his wife, she was the brains of the family and posed the greatest danger to the Fedcoat organized crime ring.

Quoted: Americans of japanese decent that were combat veterans of world war two were not allowed to see their families in the concentration camps while on leave.This has no relevancy, but it proves I can obscure any thread with random Bullshit. You may think tyranny can never happen in America, you may believe gov thugs will never murder your wife and children and burn your house down, arrest and torture your relatives but you would be wrong, as the gov already has done all those things and continue to carry out atrocities every day.And I say SO! Another good reason for ANARCHY!God forbid an agency made of people ever judge a situation, make a snap decision, and make the wrong play. The gov't MUST be infallible!!!!! (Yep, sarcasm. ) So the gov has not come to your door today, and maybe not next week either, but it will in time as every superstate has always done through-out history.Let us know when that happens, 75% of us don't pay enough attention, we like the kool-aid. Especially cherry. (More sarcasm!) David koresh might have been a monster  but you still do not punish infants with 51 days of torture, poison gas, noise, lights, sniper fire, then burn, bomb and machine gun them to death and take trophy photos of the thugs standing along side the tiny innocent vicitms. Damn sure wouldn't want to give the ANARCHISTS more ammo by doing something about it. (Yep, sarcasm. Again.) Sniff- Hmmph. More Compost. Koresh and Weaver? These are your rallying points????? Gov't enforcement of the gunlaws on the books, and a badly handled & bungled arrest of a cult leader/child rapist/sex predator? Quite the cult of personality you draw from, Strat.

"Bungled arrest?"  Nice euphemism.  Government, by nature of it's responsibility to citizens and available powers, must be more certain than individuals that when overwhelming power is applied it is justified.
Inidentally, Randy Weaver claims the shotgun he sold was legal and the feds trimmed the stock to make the overall length below the statutory minimum.
Matt45, it's not about who we're rallying around.  Both Waco and Ruby Ridge are genuine examples of excessive power injudiciously applied, at the expense of the citizenry, by the government.  Randy Weaver and David Koresh had one thing in common- they wanted to be left alone.  That's why they moved to isolated places.  While we might not applaud their beliefs, every citizen has the right to be left alone unless they are causing harm to others.  The .gov viewed Randy as a threat because he did not want to be around mixed-race people, and David Koresh as a threat because he was building illegal weapons endangering children.  
So they shot Randy's son, infant, wife, son's friend, and dog while no Federal agent was in danger.  
So they shot or burned alive over four dozen people, many of them children.

1911fan

Quoted: "Bungled arrest?"  Nice euphemism.  Government, by nature of it's responsibility to citizens and available powers, must be more certain than individuals that when overwhelming power is applied it is justified. Inidentally, Randy Weaver claims the shotgun he sold was legal and the feds trimmed the stock to make the overall length below the statutory minimum. Matt45, it's not about who we're rallying around.  Both Waco and Ruby Ridge are genuine examples of excessive power injudiciously applied, at the expense of the citizenry, by the government.  Randy Weaver and David Koresh had one thing in common- they wanted to be left alone.  That's why they moved to isolated places.  While we might not applaud their beliefs, every citizen has the right to be left alone unless they are causing harm to others.   The .gov viewed Randy as a threat because he did not want to be around mixed-race people, and David Koresh as a threat because he was building illegal weapons endangering children.   So they shot Randy's son, infant, wife, son's friend, and dog while no Federal agent was in danger.   So they shot or burned alive over four dozen people, many of them children. 1911fan

It most certianly IS about who you're rallying around.
Lots of folks move to isolated places, some of them do illegal things.
I lived in a very isolated place in the woods. Federal Agents never came and shot my dog or kin. I even sold a few guns while I lived there and took large deliveries of ammo. BFD?

Look-I met Randy Weaver, I was introduced to him by a mutual acquaintance at the Spokane Gun Show. He was selling his book, manning an empty table, 'cause no one wanted to be followed/hassled by the two poorly disguised Feds 10 yards away. My gut feeling and instinct upon meeting him was to get away from him very quickly, he does not put off a "Good Vibe". IMHO, he's guilty as hell.

HE put his family in the way, by not sending them down the hill in the first few hours, Lon Horiuchi should have used better judgement. As it was, turds like Bo Gritz needed their moment in the sun, and through him, Randy relayed that he was determined to remain, and defend. Randy had also spoke previously to a Fed informant about how he wasn't going to obey the Federal Warrant/Summons, and would remain on the mountian top, through the use of force if he felt it necessary. (Stupid ATF/Marshall's could've grabbed him in town, the day previous to the surviellance team being discovered, shit, they even spoke with him apparently.)

BTW- Did I mention I had no clue who he (Randy Weaver) was, and didn't know anything about Ruby Ridge? Yeah. I was in Korea when it happened, and news wasn't a big deal to me then.

As far as Waco? It was my BDE's equipment that flattened that "compound". Koresh was a fucktard, the Agents fucktards for not just nabbing him at the local 7-11 or whatever. Buncha fucktards dealing with other fucktards only fucked that whole deal up.
(I gotta find a new fucking word.) You want an explaination? You'll never get it, Reno never got the goods, the photo op she wanted, or the positive spin on this story she hoped for.

You speak of injudiciously applied power- every organization makes mistakes, the US Gov't is no exception. Since those two incidents, the last of which nearly a decade old, what do you have to compare to? Elian Gonzales?
BFD, we ejected an illegal, albeit a child with unfortunate circumstances. No one was shot, it was done cleanly, and with a minimum of force (And before you say "We coulda sent plainclothes guys there", recall that the family threatened to barricade, ect,ect)


We must stay "on top" of the Branches of the Gov't, and be vocal when we feel they step out of line, the same goes for elected officials-(You want to dredge up old business, let's talk Kenneday for a moment). But the whole "Vote from the Rooftops" BS, and militia planning for the day that we "Right" it all......buncha nonesense, and it still sounds like anarchist drivel to me.

Quoted: Koresh and Weaver? These are your rallying points????? Gov't enforcement of the gunlaws on the books, and a badly handled & bungled arrest of a cult leader/child rapist/sex predator? Quite the cult of personality you draw from, Strat.

+1

A man who forced underage girls into being treated like property for his sexual gratification and all of his his nutjob followers that submitted to him and his sick "religion", and a man that could be pestered and cajoled into selling a known illegal firearm and then put his family in harms way instead of giving up and walking towards an agent with his hands up are on the flag you're waving around?  Couldn't find anything better?

I sincerely know you could do better than that.  You should do feel you must do better than that.  The cause is worth it, isn't it?

Ruby ridge, started when fedcoats shot a child in the back and a mother with an infant in her arms.

WACO, 19 children were murdered by fedcoats.

Demonize randy and david all you want, but you can never excuse the murder of innocent blood no matter how hard you try.

The fact that you think murder of innocent children can be explained away as an accident shows you have no sense of right and wrong and are criminally insane.

The alledged  warrants were over tax issues never an excuse to murder, never !

Quoted: Ruby ridge, started when fedcoats shot a child in the back and a mother with an infant in her arms. WACO, 19 children were murdered by fedcoats. Demonize randy and david all you want, but you can never excuse the murder of innocent blood no matter how hard you try. The fact that you think murder of innocent children can be explained away as an accident shows you have no sense of right and wrong and are criminally insane.

I said nothing of the kind.  You're PhD in psychaiatry is from where exactly, or are you a judge?  You're Patriot Martyrdom Fantasy role playing game has removed any ability to see anything other than what you believe to be the only absolutes, and you feel free to slap inflammatory labels on anyone that has even the slightest different opinion.  This achieves precisely what?

Who put the innocents there, kept them there, armed any of them or told them to fight?  The .gov?  No!  Murdered, some, yes.  Dead unnecessarily, you bet your ass!  There is plenty of blame to go around, Strat.  Mr Weaver sold an illegal firearm, and then his family decided to fight when he could have just peacefully surrendered.  David Koresh and his followers were clearly prepared to kill anyone that would come for any of them, lawfully or not.  In both cases, none of those the .gov were coming to arrest stopped to question the validity of the warrants, but instead immediately restorted to either violence or noncompliance.  Good way to insure that "innocents" who refuse to leave, or who someone refuses to release a true innocent (involuntary human shield, should be a deadly sin), don't get hurt.

I say all involved parites are equally guilty, equally stupid, equally responsible, equally lame.  Some just want to point out the lesser of the two evils.

One more time.

A crime is defined as injury to person or property

Malum in se    An innately immoral act, regardless of whether it is forbidden by law. Examples include adultery, theft, and murder  injured party

Malum Prohibitum    An act which is immoral because it is illegal; not necessarily illegal because it is immoral. no injured party

The accused were not convicted of a crime, only accused of not paying a tax, no one was injured, no one filed a complaint !

Neither waco or ruby ridge presented a clear and present danger to anyone, the state might have lost some tax money at the worst not a reason to murder children, Randy was not given a chance to surrender before the murderers shot sam in the back.

The ATFE shot first at waco, they ran out of ammo and surrendered, they took their dead and wounded which caused by other atfe agents and left.

The accused were not convicted, there was no due process of law, not paying a tax is a small thing, murdering innocent people is a big thing, don't confuse murder of innocents with not paying a tax as being the same.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Has anyone seen my pants? I thought you only wore chaps. you forgot the leapord speedo.....and moon boots Shower shoes, Light coat of oil....and a pro-mask.

full-body camo-paint... don't forget to use light green on the naturally-shaded areas.

Quoted: One more time. A crime is defined as injury to person or property Malum in se    An innately immoral act, regardless of whether it is forbidden by law. Examples include adultery, theft, and murder  injured party Malum Prohibitum    An act which is immoral because it is illegal; not necessarily illegal because it is immoral. no injured party .

Malum in se and malum prohibita have NOTHING to do with injured parties, which Injury, BTW- legally encompassess damages and financial loss. Malum in se and malum prohibita describe where laws originate from, nothing more.

On top of your absolute, strict interpretation of the Constitution (Of which it was clearly never meant to be) you're beginning to tip your hand and provide proof that you merely fabricate supporting facts. Good job!

Let's proceed-

Ruby ridge, started when fedcoats shot a child in the back and a mother with an infant in her arms.

No, it began when a Aryan aligned individual sold a SBS to a Fed informant, then refused to stand trial or be taken into custody for his actions.

WACO, 19 children were murdered by fedcoats

Waco was 13 years ago & the result of poor planning, worse judgement, and a nutjob who thought he was the re-incarnation of Jesus.

I think people should be summarily executed for improper postage. After all, they're cheating the .gov out of the money it needs. How else can they afford to spend a million plus to outwit an unemployed family living in the woods? I personally sleep much better at night knowing there's one less 15.9 inch barrel out there, stalking an innocent public.

Quoted: Let's proceed- Ruby ridge, started when fedcoats shot a child in the back and a mother with an infant in her arms. No, it began when a Aryan aligned individual sold a SBS to a Fed informant, then refused to stand trial or be taken into custody for his actions. WACO, 19 children were murdered by fedcoats Waco was 13 years ago & the result of poor planning, worse judgement, and a nutjob who thought he was the re-incarnation of Jesus.

ATFE agents  did not serve Randy with a warrant, they were trespassing when the weaver family dog started barking at them, Sam went to see what the dog was barking at the ATFE agents shot the dog and in the direction of Sam, Sam turned around to run away and the bastards shot the child in the back, the agent shot was hit with a bullet by a fellow team mate, thats what started ruby ridge, Randy was only  alledged of failure to appear not reason enough to murder Vicki and Sam.

There is no statute of limitations on murder, it does not matter how long ago the murder of 81 people is, poor planning is no excuse for murder of innocents, by that logic there would not be a single person convicted of a crime !

Again your demonization and convicting David Koresh without due process of law and then support of the murder of 81 people shows you can not discern right from wrong.

Quoted: Waco was 13 years ago & the result of poor planning, worse judgement, and a nutjob who thought he was the re-incarnation of Jesus.

Last time I checked being a "nutjob who thought he was the re-incarnation of Jesus". was not a crime let alone a reason for murder....be it poor planning, or poor judgement whatever.

Do you agree?

I am actually getting tired of this dance.  I ask for answers to specific questions, make specific points, and instead of getting a two way conversation, I get someone that wants to stop, point to the other side of the room so we can go see what is on that wall, because they have nothing to say about the one I asked questions about.

I'm done with this one.  Enjoy your fantasies.

Quoted: I am actually getting tired of this dance. Fatigue is part of supporting freedom I ask for answers to specific questions, make specific points,No you made false accusation without finding of fact and instead of getting a two way conversation, it is not dialogue if only your opinion is allowed I get someone that wants to stop, point to the other side of the room so we can go see what is on that wall, because they have nothing to say about the one I asked questions about.more false accusations I'm done with this one.  Enjoy your fantasies.

David Koresh was not convicted of a crime, the sheriff investigated and found no illegal weapons or child abuse, but even that does not matter as there is no excuse to murder the minors and adults in that church.

Freedom of religion is still gauranteed by the consitution !

Quoted: Quoted: I am actually getting tired of this dance. Fatigue is part of supporting freedom I ask for answers to specific questions, make specific points,No you made false accusation without finding of fact and instead of getting a two way conversation, it is not dialogue if only your opinion is allowed I get someone that wants to stop, point to the other side of the room so we can go see what is on that wall, because they have nothing to say about the one I asked questions about.more false accusations

Strat, you're acting like the pot calling the kettle black.  That is why this is so tiring.  We both have poor sources of information, the difference is I know that the sources of information I am sticking with are poor, same as yours, and I am willing to admit it.  Neither one of us was there, and neither one of us have all the facts.  Some folks just clamp down hard on what they want to hear or feeds their personal agenda and never let go.  We won't get anywhere like this.

Quoted: 1. Neither one of us was there, 2. and neither one of us have all the facts.

The 1. statement is true, the 2. is untrue

I had both close friends and militia members that were there !

Quoted: I had both close friends and militia members that were there !

And they saw everything that happened, in it's true light, with no agenda or one sidedness, right?

Hard to believe that one person, or one group, saw every contributing factor to that kind of massive fuck up when it happens.

Hey, this thread's getting interesting!  Ok, Matt45, good point: Both Ruby Ridge and Waco are several years old.(Guess that makes them ok now, but I digress.) As has been pointed out, errors on both sides contributed to murders unfortunate events.  Can we agree that the level of force used by the feds/.gov was excessive? And that little has changed since then to prevent future similar excesses?
I'd really like to see this discussion continue, on an intelligent basis.  

1911fan

Government is always evil but a necessary evil, the only way to keep goverment from destroying all life on earth is to keep it small.

Gov has a insatiable lust for power, it pretends to be benevolent but it's real power comes from the people fearing it, so the gov likes to instill fear by hirering  sadistic criminals called feds known for their lack of comscience and love of cruelty.

exhibit A

Trophy photos of their victims

Quoted: Quoted: Waco was 13 years ago & the result of poor planning, worse judgement, and a nutjob who thought he was the re-incarnation of Jesus. Last time I checked being a "nutjob who thought he was the re-incarnation of Jesus". was not a crime let alone a reason for murder....be it poor planning, or poor judgement whatever. Do you agree?

Putting this back into context, is the post prior where I wrote-

As far as Waco? It was my BDE's equipment that flattened that "compound". Koresh was a fucktard, the Agents fucktards for not just nabbing him at the local 7-11 or whatever. Buncha fucktards dealing with other fucktards only fucked that whole deal up. (I gotta find a new fucking word.) You want an explaination? You'll never get it, Reno never got the goods, the photo op she wanted, or the positive spin on this story she hoped for.

I refuse to answer that question in the manner in which it was framed.

If you're asking if I think that
A.) "Should commisioned Law Enforcement officers and Agents at all levels be allowed to use firearms in self defense or as a measure of force, in an escalation of force continuim?" My answer is, "Yes."

B.) If the second question is, "If the Officer or Agent uses a deadly weapon in an inappropriate manner, then should a full investigation be conducted by an disintrested agency?" Then my answer is "Yes".

C.) If the third part of that question is "If it is determined that officers or agents, misused, conspired to misuse, or executed a conspiracy to misuse gov't authority and deadly force should they be prosecuted to the fullest extent the law will allow?" Then my final answer is "Yes".

Quoted: Can we agree that the level of force used by the feds/.gov was excessive? And that little has changed since then to prevent future similar excesses?

Yes, but I'll go a little further to say the level of force from both sides was excessive.

I'd really like to see this discussion continue, on an intelligent basis.   1911fan

These discussions always reach a point of spiraling downward.  Expect it while you enjoy it.