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Posted: 1/23/2006 7:58:54 AM EDT
Went to the hospital over the weekend for a child birth class. While there I noticed several signs stating that no weapons were allowed on the premises. The signs were red background with white letters. Does Washington have a law regarding what the sign has to look like, font, color, placement, etc? It did not look like the ones that I see at the schools. I know schools by law are off limits while carrying, except when dropping someone off, so maybe they don't need an official sign. Any thoughts on this?
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 8:15:15 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 8:15:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By IBTLplus1:
Does Washington have a law regarding what the sign has to look like, font, color, placement, etc?



No.

In areas other than those spelled out in RCW/WAC and/or federal law as being off limits for the carrying of firearms; if they are state/city property the signs carry no legal weight under the WA state premption however private property owners do have the right to not allow the carrying of firearms and such signs do have legal standing not that there is a criminal or civil penalty associated with the mere act of carrying where a property owner has posted such a sign though.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 8:25:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Phil_in_Seattle:

Originally Posted By IBTLplus1:
Does Washington have a law regarding what the sign has to look like, font, color, placement, etc?



No.

In areas other than those spelled out in RCW/WAC and/or federal law as being off limits for the carrying of firearms; if they are state/city property the signs carry no legal weight under the WA state premption however private property owners do have the right to not allow the carrying of firearms and such signs do have legal standing not that there is a criminal or civil penalty associated with the mere act of carrying where a property owner has posted such a sign though.



So, I can't be arrested/charged for it, but I can be asked to leave? That's what I was thinking. Thanks for clearing it up.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 8:30:42 AM EDT
My understanding is hospitals are not illeagal. I think it is just the hospitals policy.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 8:37:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By IBTLplus1:
So, I can't be arrested/charged for it, but I can be asked to leave? That's what I was thinking. Thanks for clearing it up.



There is the rub, you can't be charged for it but if they're asking you to leave, etc that means that they've seen the firearm and:


RCW 9.41.270
Weapons apparently capable of producing bodily harm -- Unlawful carrying or handling -- Penalty -- Exceptions.
(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

(2) Any person violating the provisions of subsection (1) above shall be guilty of a gross misdemeanor. If any person is convicted of a violation of subsection (1) of this section, the person shall lose his or her concealed pistol license, if any. The court shall send notice of the revocation to the department of licensing, and the city, town, or county which issued the license.



Plus trespass charges if you decline to leave.

Hospitals can also be tricky because some of them are University/School/Teaching facilities.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 8:41:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Phil_in_Seattle:

Originally Posted By IBTLplus1:
So, I can't be arrested/charged for it, but I can be asked to leave? That's what I was thinking. Thanks for clearing it up.



There is the rub, you can't be charged for it but if they're asking you to leave, etc that means that they've seen the firearm and:


RCW 9.41.270
Weapons apparently capable of producing bodily harm -- Unlawful carrying or handling -- Penalty -- Exceptions.
(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

(2) Any person violating the provisions of subsection (1) above shall be guilty of a gross misdemeanor. If any person is convicted of a violation of subsection (1) of this section, the person shall lose his or her concealed pistol license, if any. The court shall send notice of the revocation to the department of licensing, and the city, town, or county which issued the license.



Plus trespass charges if you decline to leave.

Hospitals can also be tricky because some of them are University/School/Teaching facilities.


It's always been my policy to carry everywhere but be expected to leave if asked. Private property is private property, and I can always take my business elsewhere.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 11:32:22 AM EDT
I thought the rules of CPL forbid concealed carry in hospitals, public schools, bars, & fed land.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 11:46:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Master_Blaster:
I thought the rules of CPL forbid concealed carry in hospitals, public schools, bars, & fed land.




RCW 9.41.300
Weapons prohibited in certain places — Local laws and ordinances — Exceptions — Penalty.

(1) It is unlawful for any person to enter the following places when he or she knowingly possesses or knowingly has under his or her control a weapon:

(a) The restricted access areas of a jail, or of a law enforcement facility, or any place used for the confinement of a person (i) arrested for, charged with, or convicted of an offense, (ii) held for extradition or as a material witness, or (iii) otherwise confined pursuant to an order of a court, except an order under chapter 13.32A or 13.34 RCW. Restricted access areas do not include common areas of egress or ingress open to the general public;

(b) Those areas in any building which are used in connection with court proceedings, including courtrooms, jury rooms, judge's chambers, offices and areas used to conduct court business, waiting areas, and corridors adjacent to areas used in connection with court proceedings. The restricted areas do not include common areas of ingress and egress to the building that is used in connection with court proceedings, when it is possible to protect court areas without restricting ingress and egress to the building. The restricted areas shall be the minimum necessary to fulfill the objective of this subsection (1)(b).

In addition, the local legislative authority shall provide either a stationary locked box sufficient in size for pistols and key to a weapon owner for weapon storage, or shall designate an official to receive weapons for safekeeping, during the owner's visit to restricted areas of the building. The locked box or designated official shall be located within the same building used in connection with court proceedings. The local legislative authority shall be liable for any negligence causing damage to or loss of a weapon either placed in a locked box or left with an official during the owner's visit to restricted areas of the building.

The local judicial authority shall designate and clearly mark those areas where weapons are prohibited, and shall post notices at each entrance to the building of the prohibition against weapons in the restricted areas;

(c) The restricted access areas of a public mental health facility certified by the department of social and health services for inpatient hospital care and state institutions for the care of the mentally ill, excluding those facilities solely for evaluation and treatment. Restricted access areas do not include common areas of egress and ingress open to the general public; (d) That portion of an establishment classified by the state liquor control board as off-limits to persons under twenty-one years of age; or

(e) The restricted access areas of a commercial service airport designated in the airport security plan approved by the federal transportation security administration, including passenger screening checkpoints at or beyond the point at which a passenger initiates the screening process. These areas do not include airport drives, general parking areas and walkways, and shops and areas of the terminal that are outside the screening checkpoints and that are normally open to unscreened passengers or visitors to the airport. Any restricted access area shall be clearly indicated by prominent signs indicating that firearms and other weapons are prohibited in the area.

(2) Cities, towns, counties, and other municipalities may enact laws and ordinances:

(a) Restricting the discharge of firearms in any portion of their respective jurisdictions where there is a reasonable likelihood that humans, domestic animals, or property will be jeopardized. Such laws and ordinances shall not abridge the right of the individual guaranteed by Article I, section 24 of the state Constitution to bear arms in defense of self or others; and

(b) Restricting the possession of firearms in any stadium or convention center, operated by a city, town, county, or other municipality, except that such restrictions shall not apply to:

(i) Any pistol in the possession of a person licensed under RCW 9.41.070 or exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060; or

(ii) Any showing, demonstration, or lecture involving the exhibition of firearms.

(3)(a) Cities, towns, and counties may enact ordinances restricting the areas in their respective jurisdictions in which firearms may be sold, but, except as provided in (b) of this subsection, a business selling firearms may not be treated more restrictively than other businesses located within the same zone. An ordinance requiring the cessation of business within a zone shall not have a shorter grandfather period for businesses selling firearms than for any other businesses within the zone.

(b) Cities, towns, and counties may restrict the location of a business selling firearms to not less than five hundred feet from primary or secondary school grounds, if the business has a storefront, has hours during which it is open for business, and posts advertisements or signs observable to passersby that firearms are available for sale. A business selling firearms that exists as of the date a restriction is enacted under this subsection (3)(b) shall be grandfathered according to existing law.

(4) Violations of local ordinances adopted under subsection (2) of this section must have the same penalty as provided for by state law.

(5) The perimeter of the premises of any specific location covered by subsection (1) of this section shall be posted at reasonable intervals to alert the public as to the existence of any law restricting the possession of firearms on the premises.

(6) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to:

(a) A person engaged in military activities sponsored by the federal or state governments, while engaged in official duties;

(b) Law enforcement personnel, except that subsection (1)(b) of this section does apply to a law enforcement officer who is present at a courthouse building as a party to an action under chapter 10.14, 10.99, or 26.50 RCW, or an action under Title 26 RCW where any party has alleged the existence of domestic violence as defined in RCW 26.50.010; or

(c) Security personnel while engaged in official duties.

(7) Subsection (1)(a) of this section does not apply to a person licensed pursuant to RCW 9.41.070 who, upon entering the place or facility, directly and promptly proceeds to the administrator of the facility or the administrator's designee and obtains written permission to possess the firearm while on the premises or checks his or her firearm. The person may reclaim the firearms upon leaving but must immediately and directly depart from the place or facility.

(8) Subsection (1)(c) of this section does not apply to any administrator or employee of the facility or to any person who, upon entering the place or facility, directly and promptly proceeds to the administrator of the facility or the administrator's designee and obtains written permission to possess the firearm while on the premises.

(9) Subsection (1)(d) of this section does not apply to the proprietor of the premises or his or her employees while engaged in their employment.

(10) Any person violating subsection (1) of this section is guilty of a gross misdemeanor.

(11) "Weapon" as used in this section means any firearm, explosive as defined in RCW 70.74.010, or instrument or weapon listed in RCW 9.41.250.




RCW 9.41.280
Possessing dangerous weapons on school facilities — Penalty — Exceptions.

(1) It is unlawful for a person to carry onto, or to possess on, public or private elementary or secondary school premises, school-provided transportation, or areas of facilities while being used exclusively by public or private schools:

(a) Any firearm;

(b) Any other dangerous weapon as defined in RCW 9.41.250;

(c) Any device commonly known as "nun-chu-ka sticks", consisting of two or more lengths of wood, metal, plastic, or similar substance connected with wire, rope, or other means;

(d) Any device, commonly known as "throwing stars", which are multi-pointed, metal objects designed to embed upon impact from any aspect; or

(e) Any air gun, including any air pistol or air rifle, designed to propel a BB, pellet, or other projectile by the discharge of compressed air, carbon dioxide, or other gas.

(2) Any such person violating subsection (1) of this section is guilty of a gross misdemeanor. If any person is convicted of a violation of subsection (1)(a) of this section, the person shall have his or her concealed pistol license, if any revoked for a period of three years. Anyone convicted under this subsection is prohibited from applying for a concealed pistol license for a period of three years. The court shall send notice of the revocation to the department of licensing, and the city, town, or county which issued the license.

Any violation of subsection (1) of this section by elementary or secondary school students constitutes grounds for expulsion from the state's public schools in accordance with RCW 28A.600.010. An appropriate school authority shall promptly notify law enforcement and the student's parent or guardian regarding any allegation or indication of such violation.

Upon the arrest of a person at least twelve years of age and not more than twenty-one years of age for violating subsection (1)(a) of this section, the person shall be detained or confined in a juvenile or adult facility for up to seventy-two hours. The person shall not be released within the seventy-two hours until after the person has been examined and evaluated by the *county-designated mental health professional unless the court in its discretion releases the person sooner after a determination regarding probable cause or on probation bond or bail.

Within twenty-four hours of the arrest, the arresting law enforcement agency shall refer the person to the *county-designated mental health professional for examination and evaluation under chapter 71.05 or 71.34 RCW and inform a parent or guardian of the person of the arrest, detention, and examination. The *county-designated mental health professional shall examine and evaluate the person subject to the provisions of chapter 71.05 or 71.34 RCW. The examination shall occur at the facility in which the person is detained or confined. If the person has been released on probation, bond, or bail, the examination shall occur wherever is appropriate.

The *county-designated mental health professional may determine whether to refer the person to the county-designated chemical dependency specialist for examination and evaluation in accordance with chapter 70.96A RCW. The county-designated chemical dependency specialist shall examine the person subject to the provisions of chapter 70.96A RCW. The examination shall occur at the facility in which the person is detained or confined. If the person has been released on probation, bond, or bail, the examination shall occur wherever is appropriate.

Upon completion of any examination by the *county-designated mental health professional or the county-designated chemical dependency specialist, the results of the examination shall be sent to the court, and the court shall consider those results in making any determination about the person.

The *county-designated mental health professional and county-designated chemical dependency specialist shall, to the extent permitted by law, notify a parent or guardian of the person that an examination and evaluation has taken place and the results of the examination. Nothing in this subsection prohibits the delivery of additional, appropriate mental health examinations to the person while the person is detained or confined.

If the *county-designated mental health professional determines it is appropriate, the *county-designated mental health professional may refer the person to the local regional support network for follow-up services or the department of social and health services or other community providers for other services to the family and individual.

(3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to:

(a) Any student or employee of a private military academy when on the property of the academy;

(b) Any person engaged in military, law enforcement, or school district security activities;

(c) Any person who is involved in a convention, showing, demonstration, lecture, or firearms safety course authorized by school authorities in which the firearms of collectors or instructors are handled or displayed;

(d) Any person while the person is participating in a firearms or air gun competition approved by the school or school district;

(e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;

(f) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age legally in possession of a firearm or dangerous weapon that is secured within an attended vehicle or concealed from view within a locked unattended vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school;

(g) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age who is in lawful possession of an unloaded firearm, secured in a vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school; or

(h) Any law enforcement officer of the federal, state, or local government agency.

(4) Subsections (1)(c) and (d) of this section do not apply to any person who possesses nun-chu-ka sticks, throwing stars, or other dangerous weapons to be used in martial arts classes authorized to be conducted on the school premises.

(5) Except as provided in subsection (3)(b), (c), (f), and (h) of this section, firearms are not permitted in a public or private school building.

(6) "GUN-FREE ZONE" signs shall be posted around school facilities giving warning of the prohibition of the possession of firearms on school grounds.



Link Posted: 1/23/2006 12:24:40 PM EDT
discovered this weekend that the EQC is forbidden by policy and not by law. (unless the security guard didn't know what he was talking about)
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 3:21:07 PM EDT
Where's SKSGuy?! He should chime in any second.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 3:25:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SKSGuy:
Where's SKSGuy?! He should chime in any second.



Yeah, maybe that guy will go have some elective surgery done and strap a glock to his small of back to poke out of the gown.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 3:35:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/23/2006 5:26:21 PM EDT by XD_Fan]
Offical Washington No Guns Sign

I'd just post the image but its a pdf and I'm tired and pissed off tonight.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 4:14:34 PM EDT
So what I am reading is the only places that you can be out right charged for CC is those stated in the RCW's. It is up to you as a person wether or not you want to carry into buildings that have signs stating "No weapons." Now, you may be legal to do so, the catch being if they see it, you can be asked to leave. Depending on who catches you and their attitude, they may push it a little further and try and press charges citing both the posted signs and -

"RCW 9.41.270
Weapons apparently capable of producing bodily harm -- Unlawful carrying or handling -- Penalty -- Exceptions.
(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons."


Argument being He saw the signs but did it anyway.

That is what I am going on.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 4:16:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SKSGuy:
Where's SKSGuy?! He should chime in any second.



Speaking of that guy, do you have that PDF file that was posted a while back clarifying CC in the vehicle and wether or not it had to be your person? I didn't grab it when I should have. I think it was from the State Attorney General's office.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 5:16:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By IBTLplus1:
So what I am reading is the only places that you can be out right charged for CC is those stated in the RCW's. It is up to you as a person wether or not you want to carry into buildings that have signs stating "No weapons." Now, you may be legal to do so, the catch being if they see it, you can be asked to leave. Depending on who catches you and their attitude, they may push it a little further and try and press charges citing both the posted signs and -

"RCW 9.41.270
Weapons apparently capable of producing bodily harm -- Unlawful carrying or handling -- Penalty -- Exceptions.
(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons."


Argument being He saw the signs but did it anyway.

That is what I am going on.



A sign on the door means that the property owners want to exercise their rights over their property.

RCW 9.41.270 is a completely seperate issue from any signs.

Lets say that you're in a shop, looking for widgets. The shop has posted in their door, a No Firearms permitted on the premises sign. You're in the back of the shop looking at something on the bottom shelf and your short rides up revealing your 87 magnum. You don't notice this as you go to the front of the shop where the staff are hiding to ask them where they keep the widgets, all the while they are bug eyed with fear because you 87 magnum is just hanging out in the breeze.

Someone hits the silent alarm button summoning Constable Fife. The shop owners convince Constable Fife that they were in fear for their safety because your constant display of that 87 magnum was to them a clear threat.

You aren't in any criminal trouble at all because of the sign that they had on their door. The wanton display of your 87 magnum may get you charged under RCW 9.41.270.

In summary:

In order for them to know that you have a gun on their property against their posted wishes, they must first see then gun.

Seeing the gun may lead to a problem under RCW 9.41.270

If the PD respond they can issue you a "trespass" meaning that if you come back and they're called you're looking at a Criminal trespass charge.

Link Posted: 1/23/2006 6:25:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By IBTLplus1:
So what I am reading is the only places that you can be out right charged for CC is those stated in the RCW's. It is up to you as a person wether or not you want to carry into buildings that have signs stating "No weapons." Now, you may be legal to do so, the catch being if they see it, you can be asked to leave. Depending on who catches you and their attitude, they may push it a little further and try and press charges citing both the posted signs and -

"RCW 9.41.270
Weapons apparently capable of producing bodily harm -- Unlawful carrying or handling -- Penalty -- Exceptions.
(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons."


Argument being He saw the signs but did it anyway.

That is what I am going on.



NOT quite correct. There is also the WAC. That's where colleges are allowed to prohibit carry on their campuses. Some do, some don't. There is a hospital in Seattle that CCW isn't allowed because it is part of the university.

apps.leg.wa.gov/wac/
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 6:26:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/23/2006 6:53:32 PM EDT by Unicorn]
Damn, triple post.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 6:53:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/23/2006 6:54:15 PM EDT by Unicorn]
WTF?!? Site was slow, and I hit the stupid submit button not realising that it was just taking 5 minutes to post.
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