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Posted: 12/16/2005 8:16:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2005 9:27:49 PM EDT by CarbineMonoxide]
www.sightm1911.com/lib/ccw/tacoma_tyler.htm

I found this reading the Ellensburg thread.

When Being a Good Guy Isn't Enough
A Tactical Analysis of the Tyler Courthouse Shooting and the Tacoma Mall Shooting
By Syd


It has more info (and more conflicting info) about McKowns actions.


By his own report, when he looked at the boyish Maldonado, he could not bring himself to take the shot. Instead, he chose to draw his gun and attempt to command Maldonado to drop his gun. (There is some confusion about what happened next. Some reports have McKown re-holstering his pistol and attempting verbal commands. Another report said that when the CZ pistol was found it appeared to have fired one round and then suffered a “double-feed.” McKown’s own report is not clear about this. At one point he says that he couldn’t fire at Maldonado because he looked like a kid and at another point he relates his attempt to crawl after Maldonado after he was shot because “I missed him.”)

I tell you, the reporting on that incident has been so bizarre--something just doesn't seem right. Considering all the witnesses are still alive, it is very confusing why we can't get one straightforward account yet.


edited to add the blue quote and to edit title
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 9:42:51 PM EDT
He should have just shot the SOB. Nobody would have asked any questions!
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 4:33:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RedDawg6:
He should have just shot the SOB. Nobody would have asked any questions!



+1
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 6:48:29 AM EDT
If the man drew his weapon on a punk shooting the mall up and then had reservation to take the punk out because he looked like a kid then he can only blame himself for what happened to him.

If his witness failed and left him face to face with a crazy gunman, then I feel sorry that he took few rounds and may never be able to walk again.

Link Posted: 12/17/2005 7:13:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mvp:
If the man drew his weapon on a punk shooting the mall up and then had reservation to take the punk out because he looked like a kid then he can only blame himself for what happened to him.




Yea, that sunuvabich is probably guilty of the mall shooting itself! That rat bastard.

Link Posted: 12/17/2005 8:57:39 AM EDT
A seriously flawed response is what happened. The old expression "I am the weapon, my gun is just a tool" applies. It is not the presence of your gun or even your intent/ability to draw it that is the key. It is your mental state and level of mental preparedness that rules the event. You must replay such possibilities over and over in your head. Imagine a shooting/hostage taking scenario every time you enter a public place. When you walk in, first mentally map the exits. Then scan the people in the area for out-of-place or suspicious persons. Trust your gut. If someone doesn't look warm&fuzzy, chances are they're not. Then play out in your mind "What If?", what'll you do when A or B occurs. If you can't imagine it, you can't DO it. Spend a little time learning the difference between cover and concealment. Despit what TV tells you, bullets DO go through furniture, windows, car doors even. And remember: A) Only draw your gun to use it. B) When you draw, fire it. C) Shoot to stop what they're doing. Not to scare, intimidate, wound or warn anyone. You must be ready to end the life of another human being. If you can't readily accept that possiblity, then leave the gun at home. You are not hero material, you are a liability, to yourself or others. Good intentions are quite admirable. However, they are not enough. Your mental CONDITION status will prevail over/in spite of, the equipment you bring to bear. You WILL fight like you train. Don't just train your trigger finger. Train your brain. And now, back to the thread, already in progress...
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 4:20:46 PM EDT
Hey Bobitty, I don't mean to hijack this thread but I just noticed your Avitar which reads "I'm for Breast Awareness"! That's pretty cute! I'm a leg man myself!
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 4:27:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PCR-00:

Originally Posted By mvp:
If the man drew his weapon on a punk shooting the mall up and then had reservation to take the punk out because he looked like a kid then he can only blame himself for what happened to him.




Yea, that sunuvabich is probably guilty of the mall shooting itself! That rat bastard.



#1 First rule of engagement is find cover.
If you pull a handgun on a person with an assault rifle shooting up a public place and then have second thoughts about useing it I guess your right. It was probably the pimple faced girl hiding in Cinnabons fault.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 4:34:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 6:45:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2005 7:40:14 AM EDT by 1GUNRUNNER]
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 8:16:33 AM EDT
Well, ya didn't think it was a typo, didja? Oh, and thanks, Tweak, them's keeyoot!
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 8:46:56 AM EDT
Tweak, do you have any leg shots like that?
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 9:04:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mvp:

Originally Posted By PCR-00:

Originally Posted By mvp:
If the man drew his weapon on a punk shooting the mall up and then had reservation to take the punk out because he looked like a kid then he can only blame himself for what happened to him.




Yea, that sunuvabich is probably guilty of the mall shooting itself! That rat bastard.



#1 First rule of engagement is find cover.
If you pull a handgun on a person with an assault rifle shooting up a public place and then have second thoughts about useing it I guess your right. It was probably the pimple faced girl hiding in Cinnabons fault.



Here's my thoughts on the situation. If you are carrying concealed and you are in a situation where you have draw your sidearm, when that thing comes out of the holster you had better be mentally prepared to used it. If you are not mentally prepared to use it to save your life or the lives of others then you should not be carrying a gun. We can all Monday morning quarter back this thing 'till hell freezes over but IMO the good guy screwed up by not being mentally prepared to deal with the threat after he unholstered his weapon. I don't care if it's an inocent looking zit faced kid. If he is walking through the mall with an AK-47 then he only has one thing on his mind and that is to kill some people. Shoot the bastard and get it over with. If there are any verbal commands to be made I would make them only if I were behind the bad guy with one hand on his collar and the hand on my gun which would be pressed into his back. If at that point he refused to drop the weapon then it becomes a public safety issue and you squeeze the trigger and live with the outcome. It wouldn't be pretty but in my way of thinking the bad guy started the whole thing by showing his evil intent by bringing an AK-47 to the mall. If one is stupid enough to try to give voice commands to this asshole while facing him then that is a recipie for getting shot. That is probably how it went down. The only way you might have a chance of talking a crazy guy out of shooting up the mall is only by getting the drop on him and making him realize that he is going to die right there on the spot if he does not obey your commands. Anything else would be suicidal. John Wayne would have got shot in this situation. Dirty Harry would still be with us!

Link Posted: 12/18/2005 11:39:47 AM EDT
RedDawg6-
That is just about exactly how I see it.

And in no way am I trying to take away what the goood guy tried to do and I think it was very very commendable. But like you said, He was not prepared and payed a price.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 5:29:56 PM EDT
Does anyone else agree that we still haven't got a straight answer on what really happened: i.e.

Did McKown draw? fire?
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 10:48:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CarbineMonoxide:
Does anyone else agree that we still haven't got a straight answer on what really happened: i.e.

Did McKown draw? fire?



Yes I think you are right... but if you study any life threatening incidences, information from those involved, directly and indirectly can be very confusing, things seem to speed up, jump, ya know the adrenaline rushing... people seem to get confused as to what really came down, especially if they are not formally trained for such situations… I guess as some others have mentioned, unless you have gone thru it you won’t know how you might respond… and how could one ever practice for every possible situation… long time, way back I took part in training guard dogs, for personal protection, law enforcement as well as some formal military K9 attack training. We did training which included one on one to group confrontation scenario’s(crowd control / riots)… some dogs would go thru many years of training before ever encountering a true real life confrontation… of course until each dog had every bitten, I mean purposely defended his master, drawing blood from an attacker you would not know if even after all the simulations, all the training that that animal would take care of business when it was time to rock and roll… of course same holds true of the master/handler, I had helped train attack dogs that went thru many months to years of training and then had to train the owners / handlers how to work with them… I saw a dog that should have torn the head off an attacker freak out once he had struck blood, freaked him out and he ran the other direction, end of his protection days for sure… I am big on training… I for one wish that folks that chose to carry could go thru some sort of training, sort of like motorcycle riding, it would be nice to have a formal course that could help the average joe run thru the possible ins and outs that could happen out there… who knows if there were such course it might make the crocks even think more about whipping out a gun to rob a store or go shooting folks at the mall, knowing that those average citizens have some kind of training might make them think twice…
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 5:10:33 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 7:41:28 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 2:26:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2005 2:39:16 PM EDT by Tweak]
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